Xbox Banning Discussion

XP1 said:
No ban email is good news for the account. As far as I know, console ban message can only be viewed on the console.

Account balance is no longer shown on the Xbox website after the real money transition, but account balance can be checked on https://commerce.microsoft.com/.
Click to expand...
well I still see my balance. When I try to buy something for 360 on xbox.com it wants me to add a payment method. When I go to change the payment method (like we have selected ms points in the past) it doesn't say anything except to add a card. Are you not allowed to use your balance on xbox.com anymore?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
jle7385 said:
well I still see my balance. When I try to buy something for 360 on xbox.com it wants me to add a payment method. When I go to change the payment method (like we have selected ms points in the past) it doesn't say anything except to add a card. Are you not allowed to use your balance on xbox.com anymore?
Click to expand...
Correct. It is currently not possible to use the account balance for purchases on the website.
 
jle7385 said:
well I still see my balance. When I try to buy something for 360 on xbox.com it wants me to add a payment method. When I go to change the payment method (like we have selected ms points in the past) it doesn't say anything except to add a card. Are you not allowed to use your balance on xbox.com anymore?
Click to expand...
You can't spend the credit tied to your account like how you were able to with microsoft points on the Xbox website. That has to be done on console now.

 
Are people getting banned for this doing what they can to fight it? I've never gotten banned, but this seems a bit unjust and maybe something you could win. Contacting video game news sites like destructoid or kotaku might also be a good way to get exposure, and make people at microsoft actually pay attention.

I listened to the podcast from trueachievements, and thats exactly the kind of negative press that microsoft might try to shed some light on if it spread.

Just saying what I'd do.

 
You could try but I think Microsoft would win honestly, just because you didn't read the rules doesn't mean they don't apply to you. or for those who have The BBB wont do anything if it was against the rules im not here to argue nor troll just state the obvious. Imo Microsoft is in the right and taking all assets associated with the banned gamertag was also stated in the rules

 
Element3120 said:
You could try but I think Microsoft would win honestly, just because you didn't read the rules doesn't mean they don't apply to you. or for those who have The BBB wont do anything if it was against the rules im not here to argue nor troll just state the obvious. Imo Microsoft is in the right and taking all assets associated with the banned gamertag was also stated in the rules
Click to expand...
Many people have contacted xbox support and their answers are unclear. The games were priced as Free. It's an easy mistake to assume pricing listed as "free" means the game is free, I think, and never before has it been against that rules to make other region accounts and use their marketplace. I have a japanese account I've added points to and purchased DLC with, since I'm a big shmup fan(and have had it since the RE5 demo was up early in japan), and I have an england account I added points for to buy the exclusive MG: Rising DLC.

Now, according to Silva(a 400k gamerscore achievement hunter who sometimes does podcasts), he got his account banned and xbox support told him even playing other region stuff on your main account is against the rules as of the latest dashboard. This is nonsense IMO.

This doesn't affect me either way, but I've downloaded free games like this in the past like AC3 in china, and was one of the people who downloaded the Halo 4 map pack that went free. They revokved the license and that was that, which I don't think ANYONE would disagree with for the Oman games - it's the proper way to handle the situation. It's easy to sympathize with, anyway.

 
Enixbelmont said:
Many people have contacted xbox support and their answers are unclear. The games were priced as Free. It's an easy mistake to assume pricing listed as "free" means the game is free, I think, and never before has it been against that rules to make other region accounts and use their marketplace. I have a japanese account I've added points to and purchased DLC with, since I'm a big shmup fan(and have had it since the RE5 demo was up early in japan), and I have an england account I added points for to buy the exclusive MG: Rising DLC.

Now, according to Silva(a 400k gamerscore achievement hunter who sometimes does podcasts), he got his account banned and xbox support told him even playing other region stuff on your main account is against the rules as of the latest dashboard. This is nonsense IMO.

This doesn't affect me either way, but I've downloaded free games like this in the past like AC3 in china, and was one of the people who downloaded the Halo 4 map pack that went free. They revokved the license and that was that, which I don't think ANYONE would disagree with for the Oman games - it's the proper way to handle the situation. It's easy to sympathize with, anyway.
Click to expand...
Wow! They banned a guy with 400k just for that!? That is definitely nonsense!

 
This is getting ridiculous. Enforcement teams are going berserk. The marketing team for Xbox One should be very pissed at them lol

If they continue like this, they'll have the shittiest next-gen launch. This is some scary shit....

 
it always has been against the rules to make accounts in foreign marketplaces to take advantage of their free games. these rules have been in place for awhile and have been preached on this site any many others just like it. I agree it doesn't seem right to have to deal with other marketplaces free stuff when we don't get the game for free or an equivalent. But its not really our place to say what is right or wrong when the rules are.... well rules

 
Element3120 said:
You could try but I think Microsoft would win honestly, just because you didn't read the rules doesn't mean they don't apply to you. or for those who have The BBB wont do anything if it was against the rules im not here to argue nor troll just state the obvious. Imo Microsoft is in the right and taking all assets associated with the banned gamertag was also stated in the rules
Click to expand...
Except they never cited where it was against the TOS and I have yet to see anything in the TOS that would suggest that it was in fact against the TOS. To me this seems to be a case of Microsoft fucking up and screwing over the user yet again.

This is just another reason for me to never buy an Xbox One or another Xbox 360 game.

 
KillerRamen said:
Except they never cited where it was against the TOS and I have yet to see anything in the TOS that would suggest that it was in fact against the TOS. To me this seems to be a case of Microsoft fucking up and screwing over the user yet again.

This is just another reason for me to never buy an Xbox One or another Xbox 360 game.
Click to expand...
Yea. I just checked using that Android app, deleted the free angry birds game, I had deleted the foreign account from my xbox the day I created it, deleted everything on the hard drive except for my other games and saves, cleared the cache and ran the Xbox live test in the network configuration without using any profile being signed in and everything came up good. Next I'm just going to completely delete the MS account I created for the game and hope it stays that way. This is my 3rd 360,dont think I will purchase another. Def no more games and not getting a xb1.
 
With the android app, the console's status doesn't get set to banned unless it has tried to connect to live and got the ban message. If you haven't tried to connect to live and are set to get a ban it won't tell you that until it tries to connect again. At least that was my understanding of it.

For foreign marketplaces, yeah I had several purchases with my Hungarian account. Getting a console ban for taking advantage of free stuff I understand and wasn't even mad over. I just thought "Meh whatever. I might miss a couple games with gold, but I can get a new system on black friday cheap." Now if I can't even re-download the games I paid for without being at risk, screw it. I hit it lucky and only had like a dollar left in my account with all my stuff downloaded before this happened. I'll cut my losses and play what I got until this system dies and leave it at that.

Funny that buying DoDonPachi Resurrection has a bigger chance of causing me trouble than if I would have went out and downloaded a rom and mame to play it instead.

 
KillerRamen said:
Except they never cited where it was against the TOS and I have yet to see anything in the TOS that would suggest that it was in fact against the TOS. To me this seems to be a case of Microsoft fucking up and screwing over the user yet again.

This is just another reason for me to never buy an Xbox One or another Xbox 360 game.
Click to expand...
Fraudulent accounts for anyone wondering It's right there

http://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-live/account-banning-and-player-feedback/account-suspensions-and-console-bans

Console bans

Xbox consoles may be permanently prevented from connecting to Xbox Live for one or more violations of the Xbox Live Terms of Use. Consoles can be banned from Xbox Live for several reasons including, but not limited to, the following reasons:

  • Console tampering: Physically opening the Xbox console and modifying it to play illegitimate software.
  • Online fraud: Attempting to social engineer users, take over Xbox Live accounts, or perform other fraudulent activities.
  • Repeat egregious violations: Multiple actions taken on accounts on the console by the enforcement team for disrupting the service or impacting users.
 
Element3120 said:
Fraudulent accounts for anyone wondering It's right there

http://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-live/account-banning-and-player-feedback/account-suspensions-and-console-bans

Console bans

Xbox consoles may be permanently prevented from connecting to Xbox Live for one or more violations of the Xbox Live Terms of Use. Consoles can be banned from Xbox Live for several reasons including, but not limited to, the following reasons:

  • Console tampering: Physically opening the Xbox console and modifying it to play illegitimate software.
  • Online fraud: Attempting to social engineer users, take over Xbox Live accounts, or perform other fraudulent activities.
  • Repeat egregious violations: Multiple actions taken on accounts on the console by the enforcement team for disrupting the service or impacting users.
Click to expand...
None of those things listed apply. Here's why:

  • Console Tampering: To set up an account in another region, you do not need to tamper with your console.
  • Online Fraud: No accounts were taken over and there was no fraud here. They set up an account and downloaded a game from Xbox Live. That's not fraud.
  • Repeat violations: The users being banned are not repeat offenders.
 
Flux1 said:
With the android app, the console's status doesn't get set to banned unless it has tried to connect to live and got the ban message. If you haven't tried to connect to live and are set to get a ban it won't tell you that until it tries to connect again. At least that was my understanding of it.

For foreign marketplaces, yeah I had several purchases with my Hungarian account. Getting a console ban for taking advantage of free stuff I understand and wasn't even mad over. I just thought "Meh whatever. I might miss a couple games with gold, but I can get a new system on black friday cheap.
Click to expand...
Sure, just crush our hopes...lol...As far as 360 goes I was just looking forward to GTA online till PS4 came out then I wasnt going to renew my XBL membership after the new year, just continue working on the backlog then trading in the 360. Ill give it a couple days, seems most people are having it happen right now or already had it happen.

 
Consoles can be banned from Xbox Live for several reasons including, but NOT limited to.

Accounts made outside your home region are fraudulent.

 
Element3120 said:
Consoles can be banned from Xbox Live for several reasons including, but NOT limited to.

Accounts made outside your home region are fraudulent.
Click to expand...
Whether or not MS was well within their rights to ban the consoles and accounts really isn't up for debate. It's their playground, they make the rules.

But the way the reacted to this whole thing is going to cause some major blowback for them, especially with such a competitive console launch only months away. But many of us, some avid Xbox supporters, were already on the fence about which way we are going this generation due to their early policies with DRM and such.

MS's hair trigger reaction to activity, which had been going on for quite some time, just made the decision that much easier.

 
Element3120 said:
Consoles can be banned from Xbox Live for several reasons including, but NOT limited to.

Accounts made outside your home region are fraudulent.
Click to expand...
I'm not a lawyer but I've lightly read the Terms of Use and didn't read anything stating that fact. Could you please show me where in the TOU they wrote that statement as a fact and a rule?

http://www.xbox.com/en-us/legal/livetou

Thanks ;)

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Your "research" showed nothing, sorry. Where does it say that creating a foreign account is considered fraud ? That's specifically what I want to know.

 
Apparently im not correct but yet im not banned ive never made a fraudulent account nor downloaded anything from a region other than my own the proof is in the facts sir. if you want to know anymore contact Microsoft im not a rep im just an ambassador

 
Apparently im not correct but yet im not banned ive never made a fraudulent account nor downloaded anything from a region other than my own the proof is in the facts sir. if you want to know anymore contact Microsoft im not a rep im just an ambassador

Fraud

1.

deliberate deception, trickery, or cheating intended to gain an advantage
 
Yeah, I know what fraud means. I didn't trick anyone as it was never asked of me to state my true region. It simply tells you to create an account of a region you want. I didn't make the code so that the country of Oman appears on the list, while creating a new account. It is there available to selection.

The fact that you're not banned doesn't mean anything in this discussion. I know why I was banned, I'm just not sure if I broke any rules according to the TOU. I'm not sure if it is legal, also.

I didn't even know you were associated with MS, I'm just saying that I didn't commit any type of fraud or broke any rule in the TOU(as far as I've read, I might be wrong). None of the steps I did to get the free games constitutes any type of fraud.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Element3120 said:
Consoles can be banned from Xbox Live for several reasons including, but NOT limited to.

Accounts made outside your home region are fraudulent.
Click to expand...
Can you provide a citation that says international accounts are fraudulent

kingtut313 said:
how would it not be considered fraud? its common sense
Click to expand...
Humor me and provide your reasoning. Importing things is common and people do it all the damn time without issue.

. If that's the case, then CheapyD and every armed service man and woman serving overseas should be banned.

 
i cited it clearly, it was 2 pages back. for anyone traveling for work and those who travel back and forth between regions there is a system in place for them its account migration and has a period in time which the account cannot be re-migrated

 
Element3120 said:
i cited it clearly, it was 2 pages back. for anyone traveling for work and those who travel back and forth between regions there is a system in place for them its account migration and has a period in time which the account cannot be re-migrated
Click to expand...
If you are citing post #538, then no. No you didn't. It does not say anything about regions.

For example, CheapyD is an American, but he is a Permanent Resident of Japan with a wife and kid. He has an American Console and an American Account. There are lots of people like him all over the world that have been doing the same thing forever. People have also been importing games for as long as I can remember and I have imported games from the Famicom to the Xbox 360. There is nothing inherently wrong with playing games from other regions and Microsoft has decided to lift all such region locks from their future console the Xbox One.

Element3120 said:
Fraudulent accounts for anyone wondering It's right there

http://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-live/account-banning-and-player-feedback/account-suspensions-and-console-bans

Console bans

Xbox consoles may be permanently prevented from connecting to Xbox Live for one or more violations of the Xbox Live Terms of Use. Consoles can be banned from Xbox Live for several reasons including, but not limited to, the following reasons:

  • Console tampering: Physically opening the Xbox console and modifying it to play illegitimate software.
  • Online fraud: Attempting to social engineer users, take over Xbox Live accounts, or perform other fraudulent activities.
  • Repeat egregious violations: Multiple actions taken on accounts on the console by the enforcement team for disrupting the service or impacting users.
Click to expand...
 
I can say they did not blatantly spell it out for you, but creating a falsified (fraudulent) account outside of your home region with the intentions of acquiring a item on said marketplace is and always has been against the rules. Fraud is and always has been against federal law in the United States. Microsoft is and always will be a company to listen to their customers and just like with the recent changes in policy of the XboxOne will try and please everyone. So in all if you need these rules spelled out fully for you maybe this isn't exactly the game system for you unfortunately. There are other gaming marketplaces that offer region specific deals, and as other people create multiple accounts for said marketplaces the owners of those marketplaces make the rules and if they want to can enforce or not inforce the rules in which they have laid down.

 
Do not attempt to utilize or share fraudulent methods to obtain content or Microsoft Points. (Straight from the code of conduct)

Misrepresentation of your personal information is fraud. By it's very definition, it is fraud. You said your location was Oman. It is not. If you lived in Oman, you wouldn't have gotten banned. You know why? Because Xbox Live doesn't exist there - and if you tried to sign in from there, you would have gotten a message that stated that.

I read an interesting summary on WHY this happened last night, but I don't remember where it was. It told about that message and that you don't get that message if you sign up for an account form some other location. It looks like (if this person was correct) the reason it shows up as free is due to the conversion to dollars from points. In the past, it would have showed up as costing 1973463 points, or something high enough that you wouldn't buy the game. When they changed to currency, that algorithm was interrupted and some games showed as free when they were not supposed to.

It's not that I don't think Microsoft was a little heavy handed in how they have handled this situation. They were. It would have been better for public opinion if they had just pulled the licenses so you couldn't play the game and sent out some sort of warning. It is disingenuous, though, to say that anyone didn't KNOW that they were taking advantage of a glitch and that it could have consequences. The fact that you had to create an account that you KNEW contained false information should have certainly been a red flag. It was to me. I didn't touch this deal - and I have taken advantage of plenty of store glitches over the years. Difference there is that the worst thing that could happen is you walk out empty handed. Xbox Live is a closed system - the only way you can take your console online. I wasn't gonna mess with that. In the EXTREME unlikelihood that taking advantage of a glitch got me banned form a store or chain, there was always a ton of other stores where I could get the same stuff.

 
KillerRamen said:
For example, CheapyD is an American, but he is a Permanent Resident of Japan with a wife and kid. He has an American Console and an American Account. There are lots of people like him all over the world that have been doing the same thing forever. People have also been importing games for as long as I can remember and I have imported games from the Famicom to the Xbox 360. There is nothing inherently wrong with playing games from other regions and Microsoft has decided to lift all such region locks from their future console the Xbox One.
Click to expand...
Just saying "people have done it forever" doesn't excuse you from the ToS. CheapyD is probably outside of his rights to have an American console. Thus far, they have allowed it. That doesn't mean that he isn't breaking the rules and won't EVER be snagged for it...

I have a friend that got pulled over one day on Interstate 95 outside of DC. When the trooper came to his door, he said "Why did you pull me over? I was going the same speed as everyone else. Why didn't you pull them over?" The State Trooper said "Sir, you ever been fishing?" My buddy answered yes. The Trooper said "Have you ever caught all the fish in the lake?" He got a ticket.

 
crazedracerguy said:
Do not attempt to utilize or share fraudulent methods to obtain content or Microsoft Points. (Straight from the code of conduct)

Misrepresentation of your personal information is fraud. By it's very definition, it is fraud. You said your location was Oman. It is not. If you lived in Oman, you wouldn't have gotten banned. You know why? Because Xbox Live doesn't exist there - and if you tried to sign in from there, you would have gotten a message that stated that.

I read an interesting summary on WHY this happened last night, but I don't remember where it was. It told about that message and that you don't get that message if you sign up for an account form some other location. It looks like (if this person was correct) the reason it shows up as free is due to the conversion to dollars from points. In the past, it would have showed up as costing 1973463 points, or something high enough that you wouldn't buy the game. When they changed to currency, that algorithm was interrupted and some games showed as free when they were not supposed to.

It's not that I don't think Microsoft was a little heavy handed in how they have handled this situation. They were. It would have been better for public opinion if they had just pulled the licenses so you couldn't play the game and sent out some sort of warning. It is disingenuous, though, to say that anyone didn't KNOW that they were taking advantage of a glitch and that it could have consequences. The fact that you had to create an account that you KNEW contained false information should have certainly been a red flag. It was to me. I didn't touch this deal - and I have taken advantage of plenty of store glitches over the years. Difference there is that the worst thing that could happen is you walk out empty handed. Xbox Live is a closed system - the only way you can take your console online. I wasn't gonna mess with that. In the EXTREME unlikelihood that taking advantage of a glitch got me banned form a store or chain, there was always a ton of other stores where I could get the same stuff.
Click to expand...
Are you an attorney? Your "very definition of fraud" and the legal definition of fraud may very well be two different things. I say this as someone that is not a lawyer so I don't know and as someone that did not create these accounts or download these games (and didn't get banned). Defamation of character can also be a crime and while I'm not a lawyer, perhaps saying someone is committing fraud while they did not actually get convicted of it itself could be construed as a crime? You're acting as judge and jury here.

Here's the facts, these people created accounts they shouldn't have. MS let them. They downloaded games that MS marked as FREE. MS shouldn't have marked them as free nor should they have allowed users to download them.

Now MS is banning large numbers of their core customers. Most of these people have bought 100+ download games (not even counting physical game purchases!). Even on this site the customers have spent a lot of money, 100 (or more) digital games bought at 50% off is significantly more spending than a handful of games bought at full price. In addition, these people are early adopters and by disenfranchising them you're pushing them away from the Xbox One. Core gamers are usually the ones that family members go to for gaming advice, these people will tell their family to buy the PS4. This could easily have a multiplier effect of 5-10x if not more if those people in turn tell their friends to get a PS4 to play with them online.

I'm in no way justifying what was done but no one has been convicted of fraud despite your accusations and they're pushing away some of their most valuable customers along with their friends and families.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Conspiracy Theory 101 - It's all part of their way of getting back at the consumers who complained over the DRM policies on the XBOX One.  They know the same people who complained would be the same ones who downloaded these free games.  Ban these people, sneak the DRM policies back in during a future console update, and profit.  

 
Blaster man said:
Are you an attorney? Your "very definition of fraud" and the legal definition of fraud may very well be two different things. I say this as someone that is not a lawyer so I don't know and as someone that did not create these accounts or download these games (and didn't get banned). Defamation of character can also be a crime and while I'm not a lawyer, perhaps saying someone is committing fraud while they did not actually get convicted of it itself could be construed as a crime? You're acting as judge and jury here.

Here's the facts, these people created accounts they shouldn't have. MS let them. They downloaded games that MS marked as FREE. MS shouldn't have marked them as free nor should they have allowed users to download them.

Now MS is banning large numbers of their core customers. Most of these people have bought 100+ games. Even on this site the customers have spent a lot of money, 100 (or more) games bought at 50% off is significantly more spending than a handful of games bought at full price. In addition, these people are early adopters and by disenfranchising them you're pushing them away from the Xbox One. Core gamers are usually the ones that family members go to for gaming advice, these people will tell their family to buy the PS4. This could easily have a multiplier effect of 5-10x if not more if those people in turn tell their friends to get a PS4 to play with them online.

I'm in no way justifying what was done but no one has been convicted of fraud and their pushing away some of their most valuable customers along with their friends and families.
Click to expand...
The definition of fraud is:

crime of cheating somebody: the crime of obtaining money or some other benefit by deliberate deception

So, yes, creating an account whereby you DELIBERATELY misstated your location is fraud. Seriously, it's as simple as that. Microsoft is allowed to act as judge and jury. They own the service. AND you agree to abide by those laws when you sign up AND every time there is a change to the ToS. There is no defamation of character involved. They have verified that you signed up with a location of Oman and your IP doesn't match up.

If I walked into a business and used a fake coupon to get a free PS3, is it the businesses fault? Should the fact that they completed the sale mean that they are at fault and not me? Not likely. Also, there isn't a court in this land that would find that way, either.

And, like I have explained before, there are 48 MILLION subscribers to XBL. I'm guessing that, at most, there are a few thousand people caught up in this ban deal. Do you have any idea how immaterial a few thousand subscribers are to them??? That's like .00002% of subscribers. It would be like Bill Gates getting upset because 10 people switched to a different OS last week.

 
mitch079 said:
Conspiracy Theory 101 - It's all part of their way of getting back at the consumers who complained over the DRM policies on the XBOX One. They know the same people who complained would be the same ones who downloaded these free games. Ban these people, sneak the DRM policies back in during a future console update, and profit.
Click to expand...
I think everyone complained about the DRM. It was way more than the number of people that did this. MS wouldn't have done the 180's if it wasn't a significant number, probably even a majority of their customers. If anything, this shows how bad such a policy would be so I doubt it would do much in the way of convincing anyone.

crazedracerguy said:
The definition of fraud is:

crime of cheating somebody: the crime of obtaining money or some other benefit by deliberate deception

So, yes, creating an account whereby you DELIBERATELY misstated your location is fraud. Seriously, it's as simple as that. Microsoft is allowed to act as judge and jury. They own the service. AND you agree to abide by those laws when you sign up AND every time there is a change to the ToS. There is no defamation of character involved. They have verified that you signed up with a location of Oman and your IP doesn't match up.

If I walked into a business and used a fake coupon to get a free PS3, is it the businesses fault? Should the fact that they completed the sale mean that they are at fault and not me? Not likely. Also, there isn't a court in this land that would find that way, either.

And, like I have explained before, there are 48 MILLION subscribers to XBL. I'm guessing that, at most, there are a few thousand people caught up in this ban deal. Do you have any idea how immaterial a few thousand subscribers are to them??? That's like .00002% of subscribers. It would be like Bill Gates getting upset because 10 people switched to a different OS last week.
Click to expand...
That's the definition of fraud on Wikipedia or in the law? Also, to make things worse, the servers they hit may have been in another country meaning that no possible fraud occurred in the US. If that's the case then you need to research the law in that/those countries and many places don't consider US intellectual property law as their law of the land.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
If it's not clearly stated in the TOU or the Code of Conduct, this will be always open to interpretation.

I did not deceive, cheat or tricked the system at any point. The TOU doesn't have any rule against foreign accounts and all the actions that caused me to download the games for FREE do not constitute fraudulent behavior. When you create an account, there is a list of countries to choose from, it clearly does not ask for your own country or region. 

Even if it was fraud(which is not), when creating a new Xbox Live account, the system automatically attributes a region that is associated to the region of your hotmail account. So even if there was any alleged fraudulent behavior by my part, it was at the creation of the hotmail account and NOT the Xbox Live account.

 
Blaster man said:
That's the definition of fraud on Wikipedia or in the law? Also, to make things worse, the servers they hit may have been in another country meaning that no possible fraud occurred in the US. If that's the case then you need to research the law in that/those countries and many places don't consider US intellectual property law as their law of the land.
Click to expand...
Christ. Seriously? That is the definition of fraud - it doesn't matter whether it's on Wikipedia or a courtroom.

Actual fraud is defined in bankruptcy as “any deceit, artifice, trick, or design involving direct and active operation of the mind, used to circumvent and cheat another--something said, done, or omitted with the design of perpetrating what is known to be a cheat or deception.” Cheeks v. Taylor (In re Taylor), 2009 Bankr. LEXIS 3336 (Bankr. D. Md. Oct. 1, 2009)

To constitute fraud the misrepresentation or omission must be made knowingly and intentionally, not as a result of mistake or accident, or in negligent disregard of its truth or falsity. Also, the plaintiff must prove that the defendant intended for the plaintiff to rely upon the misrepresentation and/or omission; that the plaintiff did in fact rely upon the misrepresentation and/or omission; and that the plaintiff suffered injury or damage as a result of the fraud. Damages may include punitive damages as a punishment or public example due to the malicious nature of the fraud.

In my mind, that's pretty clear. Purposefully misrepresenting your location or your console's location in order to receive something of value for free is fraud. Just because MS did nothing about it before doesn't mean that they gave up their legal standing to do so. They retain that right, because you accepted, and continue to accept, by logging in and utilizing XBL, the ToS that they have laid out.

It's the same reason that there will be no bans, for, say, downloading Ben 10 when it was free for a day. I used my own account, which is verified in the US, on a US console, without any lies or deception, to get the license for a game they had marked as free. I didn't have to do something additional that purposefully misrepresented who I was or where I was to receive it. Now if I had been a resident of France, on a French Xbox and had signed up for a new US account by purposefully misrepresenting my location, it would have been fraud. I would have been misrepresenting information with the intent that the plaintiff would rely on that information and I would get a benefit from it - a free game, which, had I NOT made a knowing misrepresentation, would not have been available to me.

 
Element3120 said:
I can say they did not blatantly spell it out for you, but creating a falsified (fraudulent) account outside of your home region with the intentions of acquiring a item on said marketplace is and always has been against the rules. Fraud is and always has been against federal law in the United States. Microsoft is and always will be a company to listen to their customers and just like with the recent changes in policy of the XboxOne will try and please everyone. So in all if you need these rules spelled out fully for you maybe this isn't exactly the game system for you unfortunately. There are other gaming marketplaces that offer region specific deals, and as other people create multiple accounts for said marketplaces the owners of those marketplaces make the rules and if they want to can enforce or not inforce the rules in which they have laid down.
Click to expand...

crazedracerguy said:
Do not attempt to utilize or share fraudulent methods to obtain content or Microsoft Points. (Straight from the code of conduct)

Misrepresentation of your personal information is fraud. By it's very definition, it is fraud. You said your location was Oman. It is not. If you lived in Oman, you wouldn't have gotten banned. You know why? Because Xbox Live doesn't exist there - and if you tried to sign in from there, you would have gotten a message that stated that.

I read an interesting summary on WHY this happened last night, but I don't remember where it was. It told about that message and that you don't get that message if you sign up for an account form some other location. It looks like (if this person was correct) the reason it shows up as free is due to the conversion to dollars from points. In the past, it would have showed up as costing 1973463 points, or something high enough that you wouldn't buy the game. When they changed to currency, that algorithm was interrupted and some games showed as free when they were not supposed to.

It's not that I don't think Microsoft was a little heavy handed in how they have handled this situation. They were. It would have been better for public opinion if they had just pulled the licenses so you couldn't play the game and sent out some sort of warning. It is disingenuous, though, to say that anyone didn't KNOW that they were taking advantage of a glitch and that it could have consequences. The fact that you had to create an account that you KNEW contained false information should have certainly been a red flag. It was to me. I didn't touch this deal - and I have taken advantage of plenty of store glitches over the years. Difference there is that the worst thing that could happen is you walk out empty handed. Xbox Live is a closed system - the only way you can take your console online. I wasn't gonna mess with that. In the EXTREME unlikelihood that taking advantage of a glitch got me banned form a store or chain, there was always a ton of other stores where I could get the same stuff.
Click to expand...

crazedracerguy said:
Just saying "people have done it forever" doesn't excuse you from the ToS. CheapyD is probably outside of his rights to have an American console. Thus far, they have allowed it. That doesn't mean that he isn't breaking the rules and won't EVER be snagged for it...

I have a friend that got pulled over one day on Interstate 95 outside of DC. When the trooper came to his door, he said "Why did you pull me over? I was going the same speed as everyone else. Why didn't you pull them over?" The State Trooper said "Sir, you ever been fishing?" My buddy answered yes. The Trooper said "Have you ever caught all the fish in the lake?" He got a ticket.
Click to expand...
Here's the problem... You guys are going beyond the scope of the contract to justify something that runs counter to standard industry practice and standards. The importation of games has been allowed ever since the inception of the video game industry. Famicom, Atari, Super Famicom, Mega Drive, ect. were all imported.

Also, Xbox Live is the service. It doesn't matter where you are in the world or what store front you use, it is the same service. Microsoft did not fragment the service with separate servers so interaction between gamers of other regions were not possible. In fact, they encourage international connections. They could have had separate servers like Blizzard did with World of Warcraft. They could have had it so people on one region could not connect to people in other regions, but they did not.

You also do not need to lie in order to use another store front. They allowed these users to create these accounts knowing their region. They allowed these users to sign into the consoles knowing their region. They allowed users to accept their offer for free games knowing their region. Microsoft cannot say that they had no idea Americans with American consoles with American ip addresses were doing this at the point of sale. They knew and they allowed it.

No IPs were masked, no consoles were modified and nothing illicit was done to their servers. We're talking about the freaking internet here. There are no set regions and they failed to add such language to their TOS.

Regardless, if this is how Microsoft wants to continue to treat their customers, then I don't think I'll be missing much. They seem to have totally forgotten why they made the Xbox in the first place.

 
PT G4MER said:
If it's not clearly stated in the TOU or the Code of Conduct, this will be always open to interpretation.

I did not deceive, cheat or tricked the system at any point. The TOU doesn't have any rule against foreign accounts and all the actions that caused me to download the games for FREE do not constitute fraudulent behavior. When you create an account, there is a list of countries to choose from, it clearly does not ask for your own country or region.

Even if it was fraud(which is not), when creating a new Xbox Live account, the system automatically attributes a region that is associated to the region of your hotmail account. So even if there was any alleged fraudulent behavior by my part, it was at the creation of the hotmail account and NOT the Xbox Live account.
Click to expand...
So you signed up for the account that got you the free games with COMPLETELY truthful information, without the intent to deceive MS into giving you a free game?

 
crazedracerguy said:
Christ. Seriously? That is the definition of fraud - it doesn't matter whether it's on Wikipedia or a courtroom.

Actual fraud is defined in bankruptcy as “any deceit, artifice, trick, or design involving direct and active operation of the mind, used to circumvent and cheat another--something said, done, or omitted with the design of perpetrating what is known to be a cheat or deception.” Cheeks v. Taylor (In re Taylor), 2009 Bankr. LEXIS 3336 (Bankr. D. Md. Oct. 1, 2009)

To constitute fraud the misrepresentation or omission must be made knowingly and intentionally, not as a result of mistake or accident, or in negligent disregard of its truth or falsity. Also, the plaintiff must prove that the defendant intended for the plaintiff to rely upon the misrepresentation and/or omission; that the plaintiff did in fact rely upon the misrepresentation and/or omission; and that the plaintiff suffered injury or damage as a result of the fraud. Damages may include punitive damages as a punishment or public example due to the malicious nature of the fraud.


In my mind, that's pretty clear. Purposefully misrepresenting your location or your console's location in order to receive something of value for free is fraud. Just because MS did nothing about it before doesn't mean that they gave up their legal standing to do so. They retain that right, because you accepted, and continue to accept, by logging in and utilizing XBL, the ToS that they have laid out.

It's the same reason that there will be no bans, for, say, downloading Ben 10 when it was free for a day. I used my own account, which is verified in the US, on a US console, without any lies or deception, to get the license for a game they had marked as free. I didn't have to do something additional that purposefully misrepresented who I was or where I was to receive it. Now if I had been a resident of France, on a French Xbox and had signed up for a new US account by purposefully misrepresenting my location, it would have been fraud. I would have been misrepresenting information with the intent that the plaintiff would rely on that information and I would get a benefit from it - a free game, which, had I NOT made a knowing misrepresentation, would not have been available to me.
Click to expand...
This isn't bankruptcy. So what you stated is that the legal definition for fraud differs based on situation. Bankruptcy is interested in ensuring all creditors receive their fair share so that the debtor doesn't hide assets. Again, bankruptcy laws differ by country. For all we know Oman or Bosnia may not even allow bankruptcy or keep US intellectual property law on their books.
 
Once again, this is NOT the place to bicker over whether this is fraudulent, or stealing, or a glitch.

Future posts discussing this will be deleted.

 
Blaster man said:
This isn't bankruptcy. So what you stated is that the legal definition for fraud differs based on situation. Bankruptcy is interested in ensuring all creditors receive their fair share so that the debtor doesn't hide assets. Again, bankruptcy laws differ by country. For all we know Oman or Bosnia may not even allow bankruptcy or keep US intellectual property law on their books.
Click to expand...
You aren't in Oman or Bosnia. You are in America and, as such, are subject to the laws and regulations of America. It's the same reason that you can't go to a Russian MP3 site and pay $2 for an album and NOT be in violation of copyright laws here in the good old U.S. of A.

You can justify it how you want to, but the main crux of fraud laws lie with INTENT. Did you INTEND to deceive and did the other party rely on your information to give you something? In this case, the answer was yes - and you would have a LONG climb in a court to prove otherwise.

 
Again, just a heads up. I was banned last night and NEVER changed my region or downloaded a single game. The ONLY thing I did was use the free month link here on this very own site.
 
Romeo said:
Again, just a heads up. I was banned last night and NEVER changed my region or downloaded a single game. The ONLY thing I did was use the free month link here on this very own site.
Click to expand...
Damn dude that sucks. Looks like they're cracking down on all the mistakes they themselves have made.

 
You must log in or register to reply here.
bread's done
Back
Top