Xbox One on the way. DRM removed, more details to come.

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[quote name='cancerman1120']This is not a surprise in the least. In fact if Sony ends up having a device that needs to verify games also the shit storm will be even worse since they gave the impression the system was internet free.[/QUOTE]

Hopefully *fingers crossed* Sony doesn't go down that path and allows used games like the Wii U.

Also, I found this funny :lol:

f29.gif
 
Can't see Sony colluding with Microsoft on this DRM thing. They may have a different way of going about it or "leave it up to the publisher" but it won't be like what Xbone's doing.

Not saying they won't do it. They'll just have to be slicker about it so it doesn't look fishy.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']This is not a surprise in the least. In fact if Sony ends up having a device that needs to verify games also the shit storm will be even worse since they gave the impression the system was internet free.[/QUOTE]
We know both companies said they won't block used games. The problem right now is how they are going to implement used games. I think blocking off the multiplayer on all used games like the online pass is a good compromise for both publishers and consumers. It doesn't hurt those with no internet connection and we are given a choice to pay extra or just play single player.

Microsoft's method essentially requires an internet connection, it blocks out all portions of the game, and the potential of private sales(eBay, craigslists, amazon) might be cut off.
 
[quote name='highoffcoffee496']Looks like Micro$oft isn't the only evil one anymore...

Rumor: The PS4 Has Used Games DRM

If this rumor is popping up again it must have some validity. Hopefully Sony sees all the negative backlash and changes their mind before announcing their plans[/QUOTE]

Pretty much I find this to be true. If you have played any of the recent games Sony has put out you, will have noticed that DLC is tied to the PSN account. For example the newest God of War, Ascension has all dlc under the "Services List" rather than the PS Store download history. In simple terms it is locked to the PSN Account that downloaded it rather than to the console.

At first I didn't know what to make of it but now it's all coming together.
 
I do want to warn that these decisions do flipflop (as evidenced by what i posted earlier this week vs now). I'm not 100% on this. The people I know aren't 100% on this. Some suit can come in and fuck the entire thing up. So I wouldn't go running around screaming "HAHA SONY ISN'T DOING IT!" I just wanted people to know that as of now Sony has flipped their position in response to the shitstorm microsoft got hit with.

So don't let the "just be quiet until E3" people sway you. If you don't like something, say something. Twitter is amazing for being able to talk to people in these corporations. YOSP will even respond if it's about something he can talk about (he is currently not responding to ANY questions about Used game... but you can bet your ass he is reading them).
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Here's the entire list of sony folks I know of that either are in on the decisions or have the ears of people who are in on the decisions that are on twitter.


My biggest piece of advice is be respectful. They aren't likely to finish a tweet in all caps threatening them.

Shuhei Yoshida (president of worldwide studios) @yosp (easily the highest level person on twitter and quite accessible)

John Koller (head of hardware marketing) @jpkoller (dude has like 150 followers - heh)

Guy Longworth (senior vice president PlayStation Brand Marketing) @luckylongworth

Scott Rohde (PlayStation Software Product Development Head for Sony Worldwide Studios America) @rohdescott



Also couldn't hurt to let the ex-journos that work there like @nsuttner and @shanewatch
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http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=567973
A trusted neogaf member is saying after seeing what MS has gone through this week. Most of the execs at Sony are pulling DRM on used games off the table. But still be cautious cause it is not a final decision.

I also agree with him about not being silent and doing the sit and wait till e3 approach like some CAGs hinted here. If it wasn't for the shitstorm things could had gotten worse by E3. *Time to shoot Yoshida a tweet* ;)
 
Hopefully this is true. I can see Sony totally abandoning the whole thing rather than suffering the bad press from it. They dipped thier toes with the latest releases. But from what I have seen people do not realize this is DRM. Once everything is out in the open there will be a shitstorm for sony if they pursue the path.
 
[quote name='highoffcoffee496']Looks like Micro$oft isn't the only evil one anymore...

Rumor: The PS4 Has Used Games DRM

If this rumor is popping up again it must have some validity. Hopefully Sony sees all the negative backlash and changes their mind before announcing their plans[/QUOTE]

Not being backwards (well outside of Gaikai) and going the anti-used route? How does that make them any better then Microsoft?

Just looked at my games that I owned for the 360. Only 8 out of the last 60 titles I've played never had a sequel or a sequel in the works. However, with XBLA titles theres a lot of unique titles that never had sequels. I think I'm missing BC with XBLA titles more then original 360 titles.
 
I tweeted one of them because I don't want to see gaming go down that path, and I'm a Nintendo fan. If MS's plan is adopted by Sony, or in a similar fashion, it means that it's basically assured success, and I don't want this DRM plague to spread.
 
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What I really don't understand is why publishers/developers don't get a cut NOW aside from Gamestop being douchebags. That would pretty much solve the issue of used games and help stave off GS' eventual doom because yeah, when everything is digital, they are pretty much done.
 
[quote name='Erad30']What I really don't understand is why publishers/developers don't get a cut NOW aside from Gamestop being douchebags. That would pretty much solve the issue of used games and help stave off GS' eventual doom because yeah, when everything is digital, they are pretty much done.[/QUOTE]

So while Best Buy, ma and pop shops, people selling on ebay/CL,Amazon etc don't have to give a cut, GameStop should just hand over their profits?

I think everyone wouldn't mind the DRM if it meant a price drop on new releases and sales like steam has. And it very well may go that way. But the fear of everything costing 60$ added to basically all the money we spent on PSN and XBLA purchases is garbage unless we keep the boxes around to still play them, it really is hard to buy into this system.

However, everyone is on crack if they think a few thousand tweets are going to alter this. Devs have been screaming for this, they see GameStop raking in billions because of their work and it infuriates them. It will take a miracle for either of these systems to have no license tired to the games.
 
Ideally every business probably should. Ebay is a little different because it's mainly one person just selling off their game as opposed to a business doing it for profit. However used games are a pretty minimal part of everybody's else's profits, Gamestop it's at least half of theirs so yeah they should hand over something since they are so dependent on it.
 
[quote name='KingBroly'] If MS's plan is adopted by Sony, or in a similar fashion, it means that it's basically assured success, and I don't want this DRM plague to spread.[/QUOTE]
Hopefully people will vote correctly with their wallets. I'm as loyal as they come and I'm one of the biggest video game fanatics you'll ever meet, but I won't support this future.

:)
 
[quote name='n8rockerasu'] You're not the one who decides what is and what isn't a "necessary feature". If Microsoft wants the Xbox One to be an all-inclusive media device that is built around voice control, then those features are most definitely "necessary".[/QUOTE]

:wall: If a gamer can use the system just like the 360 (not use a single Kinect command or feature) then it's not "necessary" to the experience. Plain and simple.

"Required" for some features is a far cry from "necessary."

What I, or any other gamer, deem "necessary" is irrelevant.
 
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[quote name='htz']http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=567973
A trusted neogaf member is saying after seeing what MS has gone through this week. Most of the execs at Sony are pulling DRM on used games off the table. But still be cautious cause it is not a final decision.

I also agree with him about not being silent and doing the sit and wait till e3 approach like some CAGs hinted here. If it wasn't for the shitstorm things could had gotten worse by E3. *Time to shoot Yoshida a tweet* ;)[/QUOTE]

I sent them a tweet. Hopefully Sony does the right thing!!!

Twitter Rises Up In Protest Over The PS4's Rumored Used Games DRM
 
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[quote name='Corvin']:wall: If a gamer can use the system just like the 360 (not use a single Kinect command or feature) then it's not "necessary" to the experience. Plain and simple.

"Required" for some features is a far cry from "necessary."

What I, or any other gamer, deem "necessary" is irrelevant.[/QUOTE]

When will you start to realize that what you want as an individual doesn't matter at all? You bitching about this feature or that feature doesn't matter at all.

What matters is microsoft's data, focus groups, designers.

That's what the other guy is trying to say. Your opinion on what feature anything has is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Do you think microsoft created any part of this without it being data driven? Now, their data isn't necessarily correct, but they are data driven.

Everyone thinks they know how to build a product. You don't.
 
I might be totally off-base on this, but I'm guessing that the "used game fee" that everyone has been freaking out about will just be a piracy deterrent of sorts. That's a terrible term for it, but I'm not quite sure what to call it...

The XBone will require you to do full installs of your games. Once you've got the game on your HDD, what's to stop you from giving the disk to your friend, who then installs the game on their XBone, and passes it along to someone else, etc? MS locks the game to your console. If you give the game disk to your friend, they can install the game, but either you'll have to deactivate it on your console, or they'll have to pay a fee in order to be able to play it at the same time as you (which OF COURSE THEY SHOULD). Same thing with used game sales: you sell a game, you'll either have to deactivate the license on your console first, or whoever purchases the disk will have to pay a fee.
That also explains the whole "online DRM" thing that people are also freaking out about. You need to occasionally check in with home base to ensure that your licenses are up-to-date, so that MS can keep multiple a$$holes from playing off of a single purchased copy. Think, like, Adobe CC.

Mind you, that's all just a guess, but it seems like the most reasonable explanation, no?
 
[quote name='highoffcoffee496']Looks like Micro$oft isn't the only evil one anymore...

Rumor: The PS4 Has Used Games DRM

If this rumor is popping up again it must have some validity. Hopefully Sony sees all the negative backlash and changes their mind before announcing their plans[/QUOTE]

i seen this coming right when ea stop doing online passes why should you be shocked
 
[quote name='Erad30']What I really don't understand is why publishers/developers don't get a cut NOW aside from Gamestop being douchebags. That would pretty much solve the issue of used games and help stave off GS' eventual doom because yeah, when everything is digital, they are pretty much done.[/QUOTE]

gametstop would just turn into digital game seller. when was last time you been in a gamestop? all 3 gamestops in my area over last year or two their used game selection has been going down and down. most of the store you see 3rd party products for systems and new games or giant displays to take up self spaces. A gamestop in my area even sells ipads and iphones and other tablets. Gamestop will not die just because used games do. Gamestop will get deals with microsoft and sony and other publishers.
 
[quote name='TimboSliceGB']gametstop would just turn into digital game seller. when was last time you been in a gamestop? all 3 gamestops in my area over last year or two their used game selection has been going down and down. most of the store you see 3rd party products for systems and new games or giant displays to take up self spaces. A gamestop in my area even sells ipads and iphones and other tablets. Gamestop will not die just because used games do. Gamestop will get deals with microsoft and sony and other publishers.[/QUOTE]

It's shrinking because they are getting rid of old stuff like Gamecube and PS2 which take up massive amounts of space. It's still at least half of their profits. I go to gamestops a few times a month, I'm a power up rewards pro member, I trade in and pre-order tons of stuff. I'm pretty much their ideal customer most of the time.
 
[quote name='Erad30']It's shrinking because they are getting rid of old stuff like Gamecube and PS2 which take up massive amounts of space. It's still at least half of their profits. I go to gamestops a few times a month, I'm a power up rewards pro member, I trade in and pre-order tons of stuff. I'm pretty much their ideal customer most of the time.[/QUOTE]

my gamestops have not had gc,ps2,xbox games for over 3 years now. the 360/ps3 areas are getting smaller and smaller. with all the sttuff gamestop has started to sell last year or so seems like they seen this used game stuff and digital games coming.
 
[quote name='highoffcoffee496']It's never too late; we are being heard. If anything, I truly believe Sony will handle this situation better than Micro$oft. I'm going to have faith
https://twitter.com/jpkoller/status/338875150017642496[/QUOTE]

who to say both ps4 and x1 will not leave used game stuff up to game makers. Every one assumes every single game on x1 will doing it. if the code is on disc that could be done on the game makers end.
 
[quote name='JetEngineJesus']I might be totally off-base on this, but I'm guessing that the "used game fee" that everyone has been freaking out about will just be a piracy deterrent of sorts. That's a terrible term for it, but I'm not quite sure what to call it...

The XBone will require you to do full installs of your games. Once you've got the game on your HDD, what's to stop you from giving the disk to your friend, who then installs the game on their XBone, and passes it along to someone else, etc? MS locks the game to your console. If you give the game disk to your friend, they can install the game, but either you'll have to deactivate it on your console, or they'll have to pay a fee in order to be able to play it at the same time as you (which OF COURSE THEY SHOULD). Same thing with used game sales: you sell a game, you'll either have to deactivate the license on your console first, or whoever purchases the disk will have to pay a fee.
That also explains the whole "online DRM" thing that people are also freaking out about. You need to occasionally check in with home base to ensure that your licenses are up-to-date, so that MS can keep multiple a$$holes from playing off of a single purchased copy. Think, like, Adobe CC.

Mind you, that's all just a guess, but it seems like the most reasonable explanation, no?[/QUOTE]

This is exactly what I've been hoping it all boils down to.
 
[quote name='JetEngineJesus']I'm guessing that the "used game fee" that everyone has been freaking out about will just be a piracy deterrent of sorts.[/QUOTE]

Duh?

[quote name='JetEngineJesus']The XBone will require you to do full installs of your games.[/QUOTE]

This is the exact "feature" that MS is trying to sugarcoat as a way to put DRM on every game. This is where the key is tied to your account to check a game's specific license and phone home to check with MS and validate.

[quote name='JetEngineJesus']That also explains the whole "online DRM" thing that people are also freaking out about.[/QUOTE]

There's no need for quotes, the XBone WILL (how often is still in question) have to go online to validate your licenses. So people with spotty and/or no internet connections are freaking out. I get it, you have a great internet connection. #DealWithit

[quote name='JetEngineJesus']Mind you, that's all just a guess, but it seems like the most reasonable explanation, no?[/QUOTE]

All you did was map out every fear consumers had about what MS' DRM policy would be, and from information gathered so far, seems to be exactly what it is. So what did you explain?
 
[quote name='Erad30']What I really don't understand is why publishers/developers don't get a cut NOW aside from Gamestop being douchebags. That would pretty much solve the issue of used games and help stave off GS' eventual doom because yeah, when everything is digital, they are pretty much done.[/QUOTE]

Publishers/developers get a cut when they sell a game.
Why do they think they deserve more money from used game sales? They already made their money off of every single new sale.


Oh.. because its the video game industry. And for some reason people (devs and pubs) think a video game product is different than every other product that you buy and sell..... Pubs and devs want DRM and they want to only sell you a" license to play" their game.. instead of a physical product, and with said license comes the inability to own or sell your game.. because it is just a license your buying. This is the future we get to look forward to if X1 succeeds and if PS4 follows this DRM bullcrap.
 
[quote name='Ivanhoe']Publishers/developers get a cut when they sell a game.
Why do they think they deserve more money from used game sales? They already made their money off of every single new sale.


Oh.. because its the video game industry. And for some reason people (devs and pubs) think a video game product is different than every other product that you buy and sell..... Pubs and devs want DRM and they want to only sell you a" license to play" their game.. instead of a physical product, and with said license comes the inability to own or sell your game.. because it is just a license your buying. This is the future we get to look forward to if X1 succeeds and if PS4 follows this DRM bullcrap.[/QUOTE]

i have no problem with devs getting a cut of used game sales. Used games hurt smaller companys and small publishers no they don't hurt ones like EA and ohter big ones but smaller ones they do.
 
[quote name='TimboSliceGB']i have no problem with devs getting a cut of used game sales. Used games hurt smaller companys and small publishers no they don't hurt ones like EA and ohter big ones but smaller ones they do.[/QUOTE]
This reminds me of the whole government farm bill. It's proposed as a way to help small farmers when in fact the major beneficiary of it is the gigantic corporations. In the same way, this is only being pushed because of the big guys...the ones that by your very admission don't need it.
 
[quote name='JetEngineJesus']I might be totally off-base on this, but I'm guessing that the "used game fee" that everyone has been freaking out about will just be a piracy deterrent of sorts. That's a terrible term for it, but I'm not quite sure what to call it...

The XBone will require you to do full installs of your games. Once you've got the game on your HDD, what's to stop you from giving the disk to your friend, who then installs the game on their XBone, and passes it along to someone else, etc? MS locks the game to your console. If you give the game disk to your friend, they can install the game, but either you'll have to deactivate it on your console, or they'll have to pay a fee in order to be able to play it at the same time as you (which OF COURSE THEY SHOULD). Same thing with used game sales: you sell a game, you'll either have to deactivate the license on your console first, or whoever purchases the disk will have to pay a fee.
That also explains the whole "online DRM" thing that people are also freaking out about. You need to occasionally check in with home base to ensure that your licenses are up-to-date, so that MS can keep multiple a$$holes from playing off of a single purchased copy. Think, like, Adobe EdC.

Mind you, that's all just a guess, but it seems like the most reasonable explanation, no?[/QUOTE]


They should simply allow the disc to download the game once to a console, and who ever uses the game simply will have the to play the game from off the disc. But that's not an option because MS wants all games to be saved on the system and its having an unintended (or maybe intended) effect. People are having fun at MS expense but E3 will be there chance to get all the details on the table and then people can judge from there.
 
it will be interesting if sony comes out and says something this week seems like every media website that started to put out the microsoft drm rumors are starting to put out same thing for sony.
 
[quote name='Ivanhoe']Publishers/developers get a cut when they sell a game.
Why do they think they deserve more money from used game sales? They already made their money off of every single new sale.


Oh.. because its the video game industry. And for some reason people (devs and pubs) think a video game product is different than every other product that you buy and sell..... Pubs and devs want DRM and they want to only sell you a" license to play" their game.. instead of a physical product, and with said license comes the inability to own or sell your game.. because it is just a license your buying. This is the future we get to look forward to if X1 succeeds and if PS4 follows this DRM bullcrap.[/QUOTE]

It's different for videogames than any other form of media. For movies you have merchandising, theatrical release, home/digital release and network viewings. There are multiple ways to make money. Games can have some merchandise but unless you are talking nearly universal brands that doesn't really put much extra bank in their pocket. They release a video game, maybe some dlc that they hope sells down the line and that's it. They don't really have multiple avenues of revenue like other forms of media do.
 
I'm starting to think they'll say nothing. They've kept saying E3 is all about games, games, games. That is probably all they will show, all they will talk about and they will just stonewall questions about anything else.
 
[quote name='Ivanhoe']Publishers/developers get a cut when they sell a game.
Why do they think they deserve more money from used game sales? They already made their money off of every single new sale


Oh.. because its the video game industry. And for some reason people (devs and pubs) think a video game product is different than every other product that you buy and sell..... Pubs and devs want DRM and they want to only sell you a" license to play" their game.. instead of a physical product, and with said license comes the inability to own or sell your game.. because it is just a license your buying. This is the future we get to look forward to if X1 succeeds and if PS4 follows this DRM bullcrap.[/QUOTE]

This is a great point. For some reason the game industry thinks they deserve a cut of every transfer of ownership which is basically an affront to full ownership of property.

People would be up in arms if car manufacturers or home builders tried to get their hands in on a second hand sale transaction.
 
I'm starting to think they'll say nothing. They've kept saying E3 is all about games, games, games. That is probably all they will show, all they will talk about and they will just stonewall questions about anything else.
Click to expand...
Microsoft could show exclusive titles like Mass Effect 4, Fallout 4, Kingdom Hearts 3, and a new Chrono Trigger and it still wouldn't be enough to shift focus from everything else. Then again...
 
[quote name='Erad30']It's different for videogames than any other form of media. For movies you have merchandising, theatrical release, home/digital release and network viewings. There are multiple ways to make money. Games can have some merchandise but unless you are talking nearly universal brands that doesn't really put much extra bank in their pocket. They release a video game, maybe some dlc that they hope sells down the line and that's it. They don't really have multiple avenues of revenue like other forms of media do.[/QUOTE]

You are buying a product. The maker of said product made their money off of the sale. The end. If the publishers/devs do not make enough money off of each sale than they need to negotiate with retailers who get a cut from each sale, and/or manage their price point and manage the cost of their product in a way that they are able to be profitable. This has nothing to do with used sales.

Today pubs and devs like to blame used game sales, as some sort of lost revenue stream which is unlkley to begin with, But tomorrow it will be lost revenue due to sharing your game with your friend, sharing your game with your brother, giving away your paid game to others, etc etc all lost revenue in their eyes.

The only way to stop this evil practice of consumers selling their used games is to add in DRM and take away the abilty to own the product.
 
[quote name='matrix9280']Microsoft could show exclusive titles like Mass Effect 4, Fallout 4, Kingdom Hearts 3, and a new Chrono Trigger and it still wouldn't be enough to shift focus from everything else. hen again...[/QUOTE]
I don't care if the games coming out are the best ever to hit the industry, I refuse to support this future. A true gamer will vote correctly with their wallet.

:)
 
[quote name='Ivanhoe']You are buying a product. The maker of said product made their money off of the sale. The end. If the publishers/devs do not make enough money off of each sale than they need to negotiate with retailers who get a cut from each sale, and/or manage their price point and manage the cost of their product in a way that they are able to be profitable. This has nothing to do with used sales.

Today pubs and devs like to blame used game sales, as some sort of lost revenue stream which is unlkley to begin with, But tomorrow it will be lost revenue due to sharing your game with your friend, sharing your game with your brother, giving away your paid game to others, etc etc all lost revenue in their eyes.

The only way to stop this evil practice of consumers selling their used games is to add in DRM and take away the abilty to own the product.[/QUOTE]

Admittedly blaming used game sales is a laugh, it's the same excuse the music industry tried so long ago. Odds are those sales were never there to begin with. But it is another revenue stream in a field where they don't have a ton of other options as to where to make extra money. The only other thing I can think of is in-game advertising which has been tried and not worked out very well for various reasons.
 
[quote name='VIDEOGAME IGODI']I don't care if the games coming out are the best ever to hit the industry, I refuse to support this future. A true gamer will vote correctly with their wallet.

:)[/QUOTE]

same, I like games but that doesn't mean I have to play them on consoles that I view as actively hostile towards me as a consumer. Despite my (somewhat) distaste for the Wii U, I would play just that if that's the only one that wasn't doing this.
 
[quote name='RedvsBlue']This is a great point. For some reason the game industry thinks they deserve a cut of every transfer of ownership which is basically an affront to full ownership of property.

People would be up in arms if car manufacturers or home builders tried to get their hands in on a second hand sale transaction.[/QUOTE]

You can't compare something that works on a completely different business model. Or are you secretly Adam Orth?
 
[quote name='Erad30']It's different for videogames than any other form of media. For movies you have merchandising, theatrical release, home/digital release and network viewings. There are multiple ways to make money. Games can have some merchandise but unless you are talking nearly universal brands that doesn't really put much extra bank in their pocket. They release a video game, maybe some dlc that they hope sells down the line and that's it. They don't really have multiple avenues of revenue like other forms of media do.[/QUOTE]

Yes but video game studios are NOT paying hollywood actors 20 million to star in their title and if a studio decides not to make merchandise then that is their own poor financial decision. Look at treehouse brands and all the merchandise it makes for EA, bioware, square enix, bethesda, etc.

Game studios are just lazy cry babies. If they can't make money then they should fold... plenty have and will continue to do so until they figure it out.
 
[quote name='Erad30']You can't compare something that works on a completely different business model. Or are you secretly Adam Orth?[/QUOTE]

What about something like art? If you buy a painting for $1,000 then you sell it for $10,000,000 does that artist get a cut of it? No.
 
Sometimes they are. Games are starting to regularly have hollywood talent and budgets matching those of at least mid-range movies. Again, I already said huge brands can make money on merchandising like EA but for most games this isn't an option they just don't have that kind of recognition or fan devotion.
 
[quote name='Blaster man']What about something like art? If you buy a painting for $1,000 then you sell it for $10,000,000 does that artist get a cut of it? No.[/QUOTE]

Again it's completely different. "Art" as you are describing it cost virtually nothing to make and it's value is completely in the eyes of a select group of people who assign a pretty arbitrary value to it. You don't sell art to the public at large. Most artists also die broke and unappreciated/unrecognized. If they get any recognition at all it's long after they are dead and again decided rather arbitrarily by a select group of people. You want that for developers? Art in this style is almost like the lotto.
 
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