Smash Melee Help (Please?)

Alright, I'll post my request first, then explanation second:

Request:

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*Looking for a "Priority" ranking. When your strong attack goes through your opponent's strong attack and hits them instead of the two cancelling each other out. Does a ranking exist? (Please, no "well, this character seems pretty strong and probably has priority most of the time" - is there a list/ranking?)

**Looking for strategy suggestions for team play (specifically 2 vs. 2)

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Here's the reason. It takes a lot for me to ask for help on a game. I usually prefer to figure things out on my own. This is a special cast though. I recently got my butt handed to me after my buddy and I went over to an old friend's house and played a "reunion game" of Melee for the first time in several years (I have lived way out of town for some time now). We used to play with this kid when he was in elementary school (back in the 64 days) and for years after that. This kid is now in college, and he and his buddy beat us soundly. Not so badly that we never stood a chance, but still conclusively.

I have done some research and found a whole world of strategic and "glitchy" moves (reminiscent of Mario Kart "snaking", which I am not the biggest fan of but it is what it is). As I prep for a final rematch (and chance to reclaim some dignity) before we go back to our lives I'm already better prepared. Still, there are some situations that I had no response for. Any suggestions/recommendations would be appreciated. By the way, characters (at this point) are limited to Fox/Falco, Roy/Marth, Samus, Link, Jigglypuff - there's just not enough time to practice anybody else. I know, some of you can use everybody. I don't have time.

1) Game & Watch: "Fire Attack" appears to have Priority over all attacks. Dude spams this move while his buddy runs around and attacks. Its range seems to cover behind, above, and in front of him. Air attacks, frontal attacks, everything fails but getting behind him and attacking (which is easy to defend against). Suggestions? (No, standing back with Mario, etc and launching fireballs doesn't work. His buddy engages Mario/Fox/Falco while G&W molests the other one - or both if you're standing near each other - with that dang fire attack). Additionally, his parachute air attack and that (key) down-attack (in the air) seems invincible. True?

2) Dealing with Pikachu - Pikachu's attacks also seem to all have priority over the characters I use. True, or does my timing just need to be tweaked?

3) On the Fox Ship Level (the "classic" one) my buddy and I frequently found ourselves getting "stuck" in the corner on the right/lower side of the level where the ship makes a corner. I can't figure out how we're attacking, and "they" are attacking, yet we're the only ones taking damage. What were we doing wrong? Suggestions?

The Priority list is really what I would appreciate more than anything though. I don't mind getting "cheated" if I know it's inescapable. If it's a matter of my improving my timing fine, but it would help me to know when a seemingly 50/50 battle isn't going my way if never will (and thus I should avoid) or if I need to take a slightly different approach.

I don't think there is such a list, nor such a principle in the game. I consider myself an excellent player and usually spar with a friend who I'd consider pro. When a move takes precedence over another, it seems to be based solely on timing and positioning. I primarily play with Marth and my friend primarily plays with Ganondorf. Now if Ganon comes at me with Down+A Sweeping Snake (a flaming kick across the ground) and I'm coming in from above with Neutral+A Double Slash (twirling sword slash), it all depends on whether my sword comes around in time to connect with Ganon's head before his foot connects with my legs. This is just one example, but I don't think one move cancels out any other. It might appear this way if it's a grabbing move such as Ganon's Dark Dive, but you can get the hit in first if you time it perfectly.

I wish I played more against Mr. Game & Watch so I could give you more specific advice; but if your friend is truly spamming a certain move, get him afraid of Marth's counter. If you find it too difficult to attack through it, mix your game up. Start using counters, grabs, and attacking interchangeably. If you've got a jackass opponent going on the offensive with one move he knows you're having trouble playing against, Marth's counter is a godsend.

I'd like to see what other advice people can give you here. And by the way, I dug up my Nintendo Power SSBM guide right now, and there is no such list in here. It does list the percentage range that each character's move can take off, though, if you think that'd help.

[quote name='Javil']I don't think there is such a list, nor such a principle in the game. I consider myself an excellent player and usually spar with a friend who I'd consider pro. When a move takes precedence over another, it seems to be based solely on timing and positioning. I primarily play with Marth and my friend primarily plays with Ganondorf. Now if Ganon comes at me with Down+A Sweeping Snake (a flaming kick across the ground) and I'm coming in from above with Neutral+A Double Slash (twirling sword slash), it all depends on whether my sword comes around in time to connect with Ganon's head before his foot connects with my legs. This is just one example, but I don't think one move cancels out any other. It might appear this way if it's a grabbing move such as Ganon's Dark Dive, but you can get the hit in first if you time it perfectly.

I wish I played more against Mr. Game & Watch so I could give you more specific advice; but if your friend is truly spamming a certain move, get him afraid of Marth's counter. If you find it too difficult to attack through it, mix your game up. Start using counters, grabs, and attacking interchangeably. If you've got a jackass opponent going on the offensive with one move he knows you're having trouble playing against, Marth's counter is a godsend.

I'd like to see what other advice people can give you here. And by the way, I dug up my Nintendo Power SSBM guide right now, and there is no such list in here. It does list the percentage range that each character's move can take off, though, if you think that'd help.[/QUOTE]

Here's the problem with the "Priority". There almost has to be such a thing. Several times we had the "tie". It made the "clank" sound (sword blocking sword), but then his attack continued through the "cancellation" and hit me anyway (Pikachu an absurd example in terms of frequency). But maybe you're saying this is timing also? There's a lot on the internet about priorities, but most people are just saying "this person's attack has priority over most others"...

My buddy is actually the one who uses Roy/Marth. He has a hard time with the timing on the counter correctly. His skill is awesome considering he doesn't even own a Gamecube or Wii (he's only played when I'm in town or at my place before I left town). Still, he's a little behind overall skill due to infrequent play. He's great with strategy but as I said doesn't have time to master timing.

[quote name='chosen1s']Here's the problem with the "Priority". There almost has to be such a thing. Several times we had the "tie". It made the "clank" sound (sword blocking sword), but then his attack continued through the "cancellation" and hit me anyway (Pikachu an absurd example in terms of frequency). But maybe you're saying this is timing also? There's a lot on the internet about priorities, but most people are just saying "this person's attack has priority over most others"...

My buddy is actually the one who uses Roy/Marth. He has a hard time with the timing on the counter correctly. His skill is awesome considering he doesn't even own a Gamecube or Wii (he's only played when I'm in town or at my place before I left town). Still, he's a little behind overall skill due to infrequent play. He's great with strategy but as I said doesn't have time to master timing.[/QUOTE]See, there might be certain circumstances like this. Just as an example, if you throw a fire flower at Ganon while he's doing his Dark Dive it'll hit him, but if he's doing his Volcano Kick it'll ricochet off. However, this is still more of a timing issue than a priority issue, because the Volcano Kick has to be in the certain frame span where it kicks away.

I know what you're talking about with the "clank" sound, but I'm not sure which fire attack you're speaking of. I may practice with Mr. G&W later on tonight to get a better feel for what you're referring to. As far as I can tell, though, I think what you need to work on is timing. Were you the one who could play with Fox? If your buddy is taking the Marth reigns, you should play with Fox. His Smash Up+A Flip Kick is devastating if it connects, and "shine spiking" will really throw your opponents for a loop if you can wing it well enough (I know you don't have time to practice). If your opponent is off the stage and trying to jump back onto the edge, you wait right there as Fox. As soon as your opponent is right next to you, hit them with your Reflector. If you catch them in the lower quarter of your octagon, it'll launch them back down as if you hit them with a Star Rod. It's a technique that pros use, and is really not that hard to pull off.

[quote name='Javil']See, there might be certain circumstances like this. Just as an example, if you throw a fire flower at Ganon while he's doing his Dark Dive it'll hit him, but if he's doing his Volcano Kick it'll ricochet off. However, this is still more of a timing issue than a priority issue, because the Volcano Kick has to be in the certain frame span where it kicks away.

I know what you're talking about with the "clank" sound, but I'm not sure which fire attack you're speaking of. I may practice with Mr. G&W later on tonight to get a better feel for what you're referring to. As far as I can tell, though, I think what you need to work on is timing. Were you the one who could play with Fox? If your buddy is taking the Marth reigns, you should play with Fox. His Smash Up+A Flip Kick is devastating if it connects, and "shine spiking" will really throw your opponents for a loop if you can wing it well enough (I know you don't have time to practice). If your opponent is off the stage and trying to jump back onto the edge, you wait right there as Fox. As soon as your opponent is right next to you, hit them with your Reflector. If you catch them in the lower quarter of your octagon, it'll launch them back down as if you hit them with a Star Rod. It's a technique that pros use, and is really not that hard to pull off.[/QUOTE]

Ha!

I forgot about the shine spike. I actually use Falco but I assume it's the same. In my research I ran across the other spiking move of using the down-A attack in the air and have found it to be relatively effective (with a LOT of promise once I get more comfortable with it), at least against the computer so far. The shine looks like it might be more effective though when my opponent comes in from below...

Yes, Fox has always been "my character". On the 64, his strong attacks had full priority (either that or my timing was perfect). I felt (and still feel somewhat) that they completely neutered him as a character - but maybe they just re-arranged his strengths. Watching Youtube, it looks like pros use Jigglypuff now the same way I used to use Fox on the 64 - lots of air juggling and attacking opponents far off the ledge. To a highly skilled player I can see him being one of the best in Melee but it's a different fighting style than I used in the 64 so after taking 3 years off, I'm only now returning to the game and adjusting to his/their (Fox/Falco) strengths.

Yeah, G&W's forward-A attack is a little match with a flame on it. (Seemingly) Invincible and annoying.

Smash Bros. Melee section of GameFAQs might help you out.

[quote name='chosen1s']Ha!

I forgot about the shine spike. I actually use Falco but I assume it's the same. In my research I ran across the other spiking move of using the down-A attack in the air and have found it to be relatively effective (with a LOT of promise once I get more comfortable with it), at least against the computer so far. The shine looks like it might be more effective though when my opponent comes in from below...

Yes, Fox has always been "my character". On the 64, his strong attacks had full priority (either that or my timing was perfect). I felt (and still feel somewhat) that they completely neutered him as a character - but maybe they just re-arranged his strengths. Watching Youtube, it looks like pros use Jigglypuff now the same way I used to use Fox on the 64 - lots of air juggling and attacking opponents far off the ledge. To a highly skilled player I can see him being one of the best in Melee but it's a different fighting style than I used in the 64 so after taking 3 years off, I'm only now returning to the game and adjusting to his/their (Fox/Falco) strengths.

Yeah, G&W's forward-A attack is a little match with a flame on it. (Seemingly) Invincible and annoying.[/QUOTE]Glad I reminded you of shine spiking. That should help you out a bit.

Down+A spikes are also devastating, and most characters have a variation of it. Marth's has a horribly long recovery time attached to it so you usually end up going kamikaze with it, but I've been practicing a lot and hope to master it soon.

I think I now which attack you're talking about. I can't remember, though... does G&W just stick the torch out in front of him or does it comes down over his head? You need an attack with a longer range with knockback to it. For example, Down+A with Marth is simply a crouching slash, but it has a relatively long range, knocks the opponent back, and being in the crouching position shrinks your hitbox. I can't think of a comparable move for Falco, though. If you just go in foot first, it'll torch you like a fire flower and leave you open to a combo. If G&W's torch just goes straight out, maybe jump and come in with Down+A-in-air Air Drill (downward tornado kick), then grab, throw with blaster shot, then shine spike. This is a technique that one of my other friends uses with Fox, and it works quite well.

First off, I don't really think knowing about priority should be your main concern, as it won't help you get that much better. You should probably spend more time with other techniques and strategies.

[quote name='chosen1']By the way, characters (at this point) are limited to Fox/Falco, Roy/Marth, Samus, Link, Jigglypuff[/quote]
I suggest you play as Fox, Falco, Marth, Samus, or Link. I'm fairly decent with everyone, and those are the strongest and/or user-friendly. I guess I wouldn't play Marth since your partner does.

[quote name='chosen1']1) Game & Watch: "Fire Attack" appears to have Priority over all attacks. Dude spams this move while his buddy runs around and attacks. Its range seems to cover behind, above, and in front of him. Air attacks, frontal attacks, everything fails but getting behind him and attacking (which is easy to defend against). Suggestions? (No, standing back with Mario, etc and launching fireballs doesn't work. His buddy engages Mario/Fox/Falco while G&W molests the other one - or both if you're standing near each other - with that dang fire attack). Additionally, his parachute air attack and that (key) down-attack (in the air) seems invincible. True?[/quote]
The fire attack (i'm assuming forward smash) actually comes out fairly slowly. It also stays out for a while, and doesn't really cover the air. So coming in with an aerial attack would work if you're above him enough. Also take advantage of the fact that it's comes out slowly. G&W has no ground attack that is super fast except for his neutral A, which is really weak. His parachute has THE LONGEST start up time. Once it's out though, it's very strong and covers a large area. Don't try to out-prioritize it. If anything, just try to hit him faster. The key is also pretty strong, but it has a fairly long recovery time. Honestly, the attack you should be worried about most is his forward aerial (the box?). It comes out really fast and it really hurts.

Oh, another issue might be that G&W's fire is a disjointed hitbox. This means that if you hit the fire thing, it doesn't count as G&W's hitbox, so G&W doesn't get hurt. This is also true for Marth, Roy, and Link. Fox, Falco, and Samus should all get hurt if your forward smash just hits their fire...i think.

[quote name='chosen1']2) Dealing with Pikachu - Pikachu's attacks also seem to all have priority over the characters I use. True, or does my timing just need to be tweaked?[/quote]
Pikachu is actually has weaker priority than the majority of the characters I suggested. I don't think you should be getting outprioritized by him very often. I guess here's a few things you should know about his attacks:

GROUND ATTACKS
neutral A - really fast, really weak, short range. nothing to worry about
all strong As - not very good

SMASHES
forward smash - slowish start up, long range, only directly in front. coming in from the air should counter this.
up smash - very fast, very strong, very short range. Try to avoid standing directly in front of pikachu when you're hurt pretty bad. this move is a very good killer.
down smash - covers both sides, very annoying move. this move also doesn't cover the air, so jumping in would be a good idea against this. don't worry too much, because this move will never kill you.

AERIALS
A - very good move. pretty strong, very quick, very short range. pikachu's moving speed kind of makes up for the lack or range though. if you see it coming, you can probably outrange him.
forward A - not a very good move. don't worry too much about it
down A - slow start up, strong when it hits, has a long recover time.
up A - long range, very fast, pretty weak, has spiking potential (hard to do).

Also, Pikachu's grab range is very very short. Just keep that in mind. Just in general, against Pikachu, it's probably more an issue of timing than priority. Pikachu is very fast, so it may seem that he keeps outprioritizing you when he's really just hitting you faster? Also, the list I gave is just a general guideline. Just because I say come from the air often in the list, doesn't mean you necessarily should since it depends on how your opponent plays.

[quote name='chosen1']3) On the Fox Ship Level (the "classic" one) my buddy and I frequently found ourselves getting "stuck" in the corner on the right/lower side of the level where the ship makes a corner. I can't figure out how we're attacking, and "they" are attacking, yet we're the only ones taking damage. What were we doing wrong? Suggestions?[/quote]
If by "stuck", you mean getting batted against that wing wall, there's something you can do about it. Just in case you don't know, there's something called teching, which is as you're in like...uncontrolled falling (flipping instead of upright), if you press R a little before you land, you grab the ground and stand back up. If you're holding left or right as you're teching, you grab the ground and roll left or right.

So back to my main point. You can actually tech on the wing of the wall to avoid getting pummeled against it. If someone smashes you into the wall, and you press R (or L) a bit before you hit the wall, you'll grab the wall and fall from it in a controlled manner.

Not really sure how to tell you not to get into that situation in the first place... Just be smart about it?

[quote name='Javil']I don't think there is such a list, nor such a principle in the game.[/quote]
I don't know of any list, but priority does exist. For example, if Samus's forward smash and Pikachu's neutral A hit at the same time, Samus's attack would hit Pikachu and not vice versa. Timing and location do matter more though.

[quote name='chosen1']I forgot about the shine spike. I actually use Falco but I assume it's the same. In my research I ran across the other spiking move of using the down-A attack in the air and have found it to be relatively effective (with a LOT of promise once I get more comfortable with it), at least against the computer so far. The shine looks like it might be more effective though when my opponent comes in from below...[/quote]
Falco's shine actually works differently than Fox's. While Fox's sends them to the side and downward, Falco's sends them directly upward. This means you'll never be able to shine spike with Falco. The aerial spike you're talking about with Falco is REALLY REALLY GOOD. Falco has, by far, the best aerial spike in the game. It stays out for a while and can kill people as low as 30%. Practice, practice, practice it.

Also, it's good to note that Fox's down aerial is NOT a spike. Another thing is that Falco's laser stuns while Fox's doesn't.

[quote name='Squashua']Smash Bros. Melee section of GameFAQs might help you out.[/quote]
www.smashboards.com is a MUCH better site. The people on gamefaqs don't actually know very much (at least when I looked at some FAQs there 5 yrs ago). Smashboards will tell you everything you need to know to become a pro.

[quote name='Javil']Down+A-in-air Air Drill (downward tornado kick), then grab, throw with blaster shot, then shine spike.[/quote]
Grab isn't guaranteed after down A. Shine spike isn't guaranteed after down throw. That combo would probably work at lower level play though.

I'm out of town til tues/wed, but I'll check up on questions after then. Good luck with your rematch!

Thanks so much (both of you)!

I've been mostly practicing Falco's air spike. Good to know about Fox's shine being the only spike that works. That explains why I couldn't get Falco's to work I feel like I'm actually at an acceptable level with Falco's air spike - understand how to use it, and I'm comfortable with the timing, etc. At the very least it will give them something to think about from now on and they can't be lazy coming back like they were before.

The "batted around" thing is less about landing and catching the ground (I'm aware of that, though I could probably be better at it) than it is just being juggled by two people who are basically puching their neutral-A over an over - with an occasional smash in between. It's complete pandemonium, starts with me being surrounded by two of them - we're all pushing buttons like mad but I'm the only one getting hurt. My buddy runs in to "save the day" with his running forward-thrust, which gets cancelled out and then he and I are both in there getting juggled by these two. Why my spamming isn't working while theirs is, that's my question. Even in an opposite scenario, say it starts with just me and my buddy and we catch one of them in the middle - somehow in the midst of being juggled his character will actually sneak a little slap in there and somehow hit us. Feels like a double-standard except of course a video game has no preferences so it's something we're doing wrong.

My partner is considerably more defensive-minded (he prefers playing hide-and-seek with Samus but recognized early on that wasn't getting us anywhere) so I HAVE to be on the offensive if we're ever going to kill anyone without getting nickel-and-dimed out of the game.

GREAT info on Fox, thanks for letting me know. Clearly I went right in going with Falco.

Yes, the fire attack is as you described - starting above the head and then he drops it forward. Tonight I found that the ground attack (fast) seems to be best - from a distance. Falco can sneak in there and get the hit before he gets the fire down. I just can't take a running start and show my hand too early.

Throwing - In the 64 version I LOVED throwing. I absolutely enfuriated everyone I played and mastered the whole thing. In Melee, I miss. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Roll behind someone --> Right next to them --> They can literally just STAND THERE because either the game doesn't recognize that I wanted to throw and ignores my Z button, or I swipe and come up empty. Probably I should practice more but for now I'm a little bitter about the whole throwing thing and it not so much working for me.

Pikachu --> We usually play "open" levels, and this kid likes to spam on Pikachu's lightning attack (the one that comes straight down). That pretty much kills the air game because he'll just sit there and do that all day. That move, the throw, and the forward-A (ground) are his favorite moves. If you try to sneak in behind him he also pulls out the down-A (ground). I would venture to say he doesn't have any other strategy.

One thing I've found helpful against the computer at least, when being "juggled" between two people who are swatting away at you - Falco's shine attack. Usually can sneak that one in and send at least one if not both of the little punks flying up in the air. That's my second big hope, as my biggest problem with these guys was first that in close combat they always won, and second I couldn't kill them without running up their damage.

Rematch is the 29th (?). We're going to have them and some other guys over for UFC but Melee is the opener

I went to the Smashboards and found a guide that was somewhat useful. That's actually where I first heard of Priority, but didn't find any list or more than the typical "seems to have priority most of the time" comments. The guide I found was helpful in that it helped me realize there are a lot of strategies out there I haven't been using. Youtube gave me a bit of a visual. At this point it would be nice to have a conclusive resource just to know. Not knowing why I lost is worse to me than actually losing. Some of the junk that happened the other day makes me crazy just because I don't know if I lost because I had the wrong timing, or if I lost because I took my knife up against the opponent's gun so to speak.

Thanks again so much for your thoughts. Also, if anybody has any suggestions for Jigglypuff I would really like to hear them. I absolutely love pasting someone with that silly little pink ball of fluff and finishing off with its girly little taunt. I used to use Jigglypuff against this kid when he was in grade school but he put me in my place this last time

Glad you chimed in, Battousai. I was wondering where the resident SSBM expert on CAG was hiding.

OP, from how you're describing this, it sounds like you're playing against two ruthless spammers and/or button-mashers with a worthless partner. Battousai is right that my example combo (Air Drill, grab, blaster shot throw, shine spike) would probably not work the majority of the time against a pro player, but I don't think this is that situation. I think the key to your victory will be mixing up your game dramatically compared to the last tournament you guys held.

The example combo I gave you is exactly what you need to incorporate. You need to jump in towards Pikachu, roll away while he does his redundant Thunder, then rush in after with a flurry of hits. If you're playing against spammers, you need to use their routines against them. And if your partner plays defensively, have him focus on breaking up these team-up beatdowns you're getting. Have him do things like grab one of them, throw them up, and do a quick Up+A-in-air Luna Slash, then have a Smash Up+A Justice Sword waiting for them on the way back down. Or heck, simply just jump into the fray with a counter. If they're nickel & diming you in a corner with fast normal attacks, jumping in with a counter should certainly break that nonsense up.

Based on what Battousai has brought to the table, I personally would go with Fox if you want the upper hand. A downward shine spike is inviable in many, many more situations than an upward variation IMO. As for Jigglypuff, playing a defensive game and trying to get lucky with her Rest is the only way I've ever played against her. Jigglypuff always seemed like the character to pick if you want to humiliate someone, like picking Dan in a Street Fighter game. One thing Jigglypuff does have going for her is that she can recover from nearly anything, which is annoying as hell. Now if someone could play respectably with Jigglypuff (i.e. no Rest), I'd be highly impressed.

No...

I don't think I'm playing a "pro". Just two college kids who have put in a lot of hours.

I've gotten pretty good with Falco's down-A air spike, so unless the shine-spike has a dramatically better success rate I don't think it would be good to try switching at this point.

My buddy still needs some suggestions for Roy or Marth. He's nowhere near worthless. He's one of the smartest people I know, and a solid gamer. He just hasn't had the hours of game time and knows enough not to try to learn a new character at the drop of a hat. He used Samus on the 64 back in the day when we were in College and was great with her - but in Melee/team that just doesn't work. He played with Roy and Marth quite a bit when I first got Melee, but then we all went our separate ways with jobs, graduation, etc. I can't blame him, out of 20+ characters I'm "good" with all of three, competent with an additional one or two, and would be completely at a loss trying to switch characters at this point - not to mention, once you have "your" characters that you identify, it kind of takes you out of the game to just switch to another character with different fighting styles, etc. I don't think I could switch to DK and still respect myself, even if I were somehow able to beat everyone I played with him. DK just isn't "me".

Anyway, I think at this point that's the next big piece to the puzzle - how he can be more effective as a partner (or how I can be more effective too). He's now completely comfortable with their moves, etc - it's just putting together that secondary set of skills/spikes/combos that takes you from respectable to dangerous that he needs. If Roy/Marth had some long-range attack it would be helpful. As it is, I need to be able to involve him more directly. I tried being the "bait" (they love to double-team...meanwhile he could easily clean up while they're distracted) - that just doesn't seem to resonate. Any suggestions for "team" strategies with Falco and Roy/Marth?

Also, thanks again for all the suggestions. I played again with Jigglypuff (I've always loved JP) and realized how much I've improved with Falco just because there was such a difference between my "old style" and the deeper move set/strategies I use now. I still love Jigglypuff, but yeah, you have to be pretty awesome to put together a formidable strategy beyond "catch them while they're not paying attention".

DK certainly isn't "me" either. :lol:

You're kind of in luck, because Marth is my main character. I've been dropping strategies for him in some of my previous posts. Before I continue, I would say definitely have your partner stick to Marth instead of Roy. Marth is quicker, and his moves impact hard at the tip of his sword, as opposed to Roy who impacts harder at the hilt of his sword. Having the advantage at the tip is incredibly more beneficial from my experience, which is why I think we see more pro players using Marth instead of Roy.

Now as I mentioned before, I play against an extremely well-seasoned Melee vet. He always says that if he could eliminate one move from Marth's roster, it would be his Neutral+A Double Slash. It's not a move that beginner Marth players use a lot, and you should encourage your partner to incorporate it more often. Obviously you come in with it from the air, and it covers you whether your opponent jumps at you as well or attacks from the ground. It has the potential to hit twice if it happens to connect from both swipes, and if it just hits at the end while your opponent is ground-based it'll still knock them back enough to chain a combo off of it. From what I've gathered from your partner thus far, he should use this move a lot. It's very difficult to defend against.

There are two other offensive strategies I'll mention in this post. If he wants to come straight in for a head-on attack, Marth's Forward+B Dancing Blade should disrupt most other moves (this may be your answer to G&W's Fire Attack) and you can connect it with a couple of different endings to keep your opponent guessing. For example, you can slash forward twice with the Dancing Blade, and hit them with Up+B Dolphin Slash if they're at a lower percentage to send them flying. If they're not at a high percentage, go in for a grab or use Down+A Low Stab to send them reeling back a bit to get another combo going.

Now the second important strategy I want to mention is the Down+A-in-air Half Moon and the Up+A-in-air Luna Slash. One is bringing the sword over in a 180 degree slash above the head, and the other is bringing it down in a 180 degree slash below you. I doubt your opponents have much practice in countering airborn upward attacks. I use the Luna Slash against my friend all of the time to juggle him in the air and rack up percentage, and I'd say it connects well over 50% of the time. And if it doesn't connect, we'll often "clank" and both be knocked down/up. If your partner can manage an air juggle in this fashion, it should buy you plenty of time to do your business with Falco. Now the Half Moon is effective as a spike maneuver, but I don't expect your partner to use it in that fashion. It has a wide arc and if he happens to connect with both of your opponents (which is pretty likely if they're together attacking you), it'll knock them both to the ground. The recovery time on the move is terrible, but this may be a good thing for you. While they see that Marth is vulnerable, you can come in with your own combo after they get up. Remember to wait for them to tap A to do an attacking recovery before you launch your assault. These guys seem like the type who use the attacking recovery 90% of the time.

I hope this helps. I'm honestly surprised we haven't had more input in this thread. Are Battousai and I really the only Melee enthusiasts on CAG?

Why do you need to know which moves have priority over the other in trade hits? Both players should be using Fox only

no items

final destination.

That solves your problem right there. Pikachu isn't even tournament legal, sheesh.

[quote name='schwartzvald']Why do you need to know which moves have priority over the other in trade hits? Both players should be using Fox only

no items

final destination.

That solves your problem right there. Pikachu isn't even tournament legal, sheesh.[/QUOTE]

Uh...what?

We're not playing tournaments, just some old friends getting together for a little grudge match revival. I want to make a respectable showing this time.

Both players using Fox isn't going to happen. Neither of us is skilled enough to pull that off, and neither of us has that kind of practice time.

Tournament legal what? Does that mean "Pika's so bad they don't let players use it" or "Pika's such a 'cheater' they made the character illegal"?

I want to know about Priorities because (1) if I'm using a player with lower priority on certain moves I will stop pounding my head on a wall trying different timing, etc and (2) Nothing I hate more than getting "cheated" in a video game. A hyperbolic example would be Mario's fireball going through a forward-Smash attack and knocking me off the screen. This has never happened, but if it did I would probably throw the controller through the TV while yelling "cheater!!!" and walk out. Knowing priorities helps me build a foundational framework in my mind so I'm not constantly uncertain as to what's happening and why.

Here's a strategic example of how knowing Priorities would help. With Falco's air-smash, you can hang out by the edge and knock returning players into oblivion as they approach the edge. With Game and Watch, Falco's spike often takes priority over G&W's Up-B Trampoline attack. So if it works 50% of the time (seems to be the case with me) it's a worthwhile strategy to camp out on the edge every time G&W gets knocked off and you pick up a lot of quick kills. But, say Captain Falcon's Up-B has Priority 100% of the time (I really don't know, but for the sake of argument). Now, if you KNOW this ahead of time you don't waste attempt after attempt trying the spike with different timing, etc - you have to be more careful about it. If you DON'T know this, you could waste untold hours and 'lives' pounding your head on the wall and wondering if you will ever get the spike right or should just give up and try something else.

Here's an even better example straight from my "practice" last night. I know that Falco's shine has priority over a fireball, fire flower, and on the Fox level the lasers from the ships that hover in from time to time. So if my opponent is spamming fireballs at me I use shine to send them back at them. Or, if the ships fly in and I'm in the right situation I shine their lasers back at my opponents. BUT, I did NOT know until last night that Blastoise's Blue projectiles (lasers?) have priority over my shine and got blown off the screen. Now that I know this, instead of trying in vain to shine them back I block or run and hide like a little girl when Blastoise comes out of a pokeball.

Now, you seem to be on here to gloat about your Melee skills more than offer genuine advice, so maybe you haven't been in the situation I'm in a little behind the times on strategy, experience, etc. However, from my perspective there are dozens of these "who has priority" instances I've run in to. I realize nobody would ever put together a giant list of every possible scenario, but a list of which smash attacks have priority over others does not seem that unlikely (and would have been extremely helpful to me). I can spend days and months figuring it all out for myself, or I can ask the good people here on CAG if they know.

I do, however, accept the fact that it appears there is no such list. I am only responding with my logic in asking this question since so many people keep asking why I would ask for such a thing.

[quote name='Javil']DK certainly isn't "me" either. :lol:

You're kind of in luck, because Marth is my main character. I've been dropping strategies for him in some of my previous posts. Before I continue, I would say definitely have your partner stick to Marth instead of Roy. Marth is quicker, and his moves impact hard at the tip of his sword, as opposed to Roy who impacts harder at the hilt of his sword. Having the advantage at the tip is incredibly more beneficial from my experience, which is why I think we see more pro players using Marth instead of Roy.

Now as I mentioned before, I play against an extremely well-seasoned Melee vet. He always says that if he could eliminate one move from Marth's roster, it would be his Neutral+A Double Slash. It's not a move that beginner Marth players use a lot, and you should encourage your partner to incorporate it more often. Obviously you come in with it from the air, and it covers you whether your opponent jumps at you as well or attacks from the ground. It has the potential to hit twice if it happens to connect from both swipes, and if it just hits at the end while your opponent is ground-based it'll still knock them back enough to chain a combo off of it. From what I've gathered from your partner thus far, he should use this move a lot. It's very difficult to defend against.

There are two other offensive strategies I'll mention in this post. If he wants to come straight in for a head-on attack, Marth's Forward+B Dancing Blade should disrupt most other moves (this may be your answer to G&W's Fire Attack) and you can connect it with a couple of different endings to keep your opponent guessing. For example, you can slash forward twice with the Dancing Blade, and hit them with Up+B Dolphin Slash if they're at a lower percentage to send them flying. If they're not at a high percentage, go in for a grab or use Down+A Low Stab to send them reeling back a bit to get another combo going.

Now the second important strategy I want to mention is the Down+A-in-air Half Moon and the Up+A-in-air Luna Slash. One is bringing the sword over in a 180 degree slash above the head, and the other is bringing it down in a 180 degree slash below you. I doubt your opponents have much practice in countering airborn upward attacks. I use the Luna Slash against my friend all of the time to juggle him in the air and rack up percentage, and I'd say it connects well over 50% of the time. And if it doesn't connect, we'll often "clank" and both be knocked down/up. If your partner can manage an air juggle in this fashion, it should buy you plenty of time to do your business with Falco. Now the Half Moon is effective as a spike maneuver, but I don't expect your partner to use it in that fashion. It has a wide arc and if he happens to connect with both of your opponents (which is pretty likely if they're together attacking you), it'll knock them both to the ground. The recovery time on the move is terrible, but this may be a good thing for you. While they see that Marth is vulnerable, you can come in with your own combo after they get up. Remember to wait for them to tap A to do an attacking recovery before you launch your assault. These guys seem like the type who use the attacking recovery 90% of the time.

I hope this helps. I'm honestly surprised we haven't had more input in this thread. Are Battousai and I really the only Melee enthusiasts on CAG? [/QUOTE]

This will help considerably. I'll let you know how it goes. He'll probably come over tonight and play some so I'll have him try these out.

[quote name='Javil']DK certainly isn't "me" either. :lol:

You're kind of in luck, because Marth is my main character. I've been dropping strategies for him in some of my previous posts. Before I continue, I would say definitely have your partner stick to Marth instead of Roy. Marth is quicker, and his moves impact hard at the tip of his sword, as opposed to Roy who impacts harder at the hilt of his sword. Having the advantage at the tip is incredibly more beneficial from my experience, which is why I think we see more pro players using Marth instead of Roy.

Now as I mentioned before, I play against an extremely well-seasoned Melee vet. He always says that if he could eliminate one move from Marth's roster, it would be his Neutral+A Double Slash. It's not a move that beginner Marth players use a lot, and you should encourage your partner to incorporate it more often. Obviously you come in with it from the air, and it covers you whether your opponent jumps at you as well or attacks from the ground. It has the potential to hit twice if it happens to connect from both swipes, and if it just hits at the end while your opponent is ground-based it'll still knock them back enough to chain a combo off of it. From what I've gathered from your partner thus far, he should use this move a lot. It's very difficult to defend against.

There are two other offensive strategies I'll mention in this post. If he wants to come straight in for a head-on attack, Marth's Forward+B Dancing Blade should disrupt most other moves (this may be your answer to G&W's Fire Attack) and you can connect it with a couple of different endings to keep your opponent guessing. For example, you can slash forward twice with the Dancing Blade, and hit them with Up+B Dolphin Slash if they're at a lower percentage to send them flying. If they're not at a high percentage, go in for a grab or use Down+A Low Stab to send them reeling back a bit to get another combo going.

Now the second important strategy I want to mention is the Down+A-in-air Half Moon and the Up+A-in-air Luna Slash. One is bringing the sword over in a 180 degree slash above the head, and the other is bringing it down in a 180 degree slash below you. I doubt your opponents have much practice in countering airborn upward attacks. I use the Luna Slash against my friend all of the time to juggle him in the air and rack up percentage, and I'd say it connects well over 50% of the time. And if it doesn't connect, we'll often "clank" and both be knocked down/up. If your partner can manage an air juggle in this fashion, it should buy you plenty of time to do your business with Falco. Now the Half Moon is effective as a spike maneuver, but I don't expect your partner to use it in that fashion. It has a wide arc and if he happens to connect with both of your opponents (which is pretty likely if they're together attacking you), it'll knock them both to the ground. The recovery time on the move is terrible, but this may be a good thing for you. While they see that Marth is vulnerable, you can come in with your own combo after they get up. Remember to wait for them to tap A to do an attacking recovery before you launch your assault. These guys seem like the type who use the attacking recovery 90% of the time.

I hope this helps. I'm honestly surprised we haven't had more input in this thread. Are Battousai and I really the only Melee enthusiasts on CAG? [/QUOTE]

Oh man,

I can't tell you how much I appreciate these pointers. Especially the revelation that Marth has an air-spike. This has opened up a whole new world of dirty little tricks for us to pull out of our hats when we meet in a few days. Thanks again!

[quote name='chosen1s']Oh man,

I can't tell you how much I appreciate these pointers. Especially the revelation that Marth has an air-spike. This has opened up a whole new world of dirty little tricks for us to pull out of our hats when we meet in a few days. Thanks again![/QUOTE]Glad to hear it! And remember, if your opponents get used to it and start coming down with a Down+A-in-air move to counter Marth's Luna Slash, have him counter instead of doing that move.

I showed this thread to my sparring partner, and he recommended that you watch this series. It gets very advanced very quickly, though, and I know you're having that showdown any day now.

Heeey. Just got back from vacation, and I don't have that much time now either, so I'm just gonna give a few pointers. I'll probably reply to the later posts in the same matter I did before when I have more time. I only skimmed them just now.

There are a lot of things that I feel like less experienced players either forget or don't realize.

1) There are two ways to grab. Z and R+A. They kinda both have different purposes. I generally use Z when I'm doing a running grab. R+A is more of a defensive grab. For example...someone either runs at you or jumps at you and you think they're going to attack. Then you shield and block their attack. Their attack is over, they're still in front of you, but they haven't recovered from their attack yet. Sooo, while you're still holding R, you press A to grab them. This method of grabbing is VERY VERY important. I think I use it just as often, if not more than the normal grabbing.

marth note: Marth's grabs kinda suck, but his grab range is AMAZING. The range makes his grabs one of my favorite.

2) Don't forget your standing neutral A. It is SUPER fast and interrupts a lot of things. A lot of times, people don't realize that they were interupted right away and you can follow it up with something like a grab or a down smash (assuming you're falco)

marth note: Marth's neutral A is super slow

3) Don't forget the strong attacks. These are the attacks that are in between neutral and smashes. You either slightly tilt the joystick in a direction, or have it held there while you press A. Falco has a very very useful up one and a pretty good down one. His forward strong is garbage.

marth: up tilt is AMAZING (you should almost never use his up smash because his strong up is waay better). his down is also a solid poker. his forward is not that great, but it's okay.

4) Learn to short hop if you don't know how. By tapping jump very very quickly, your hop becomes way shorter. This way you can do aerial attacks very quickly, and it's really good for spiking too.

A few notes for your friend: Marth's spike is pretty hard to pull off. You have to hit them with the tip of the sword. It might not be practical learning it in a few days. Also, in a 2v2, Marth's forward smash is DEADLY. He may also want to learn to wavedash. Wavedashing is basically a very fast way to get from one place to another (shorter distance than a roll). You basically jump, and then air dodge diagonally downward RIGHT AFTER the jump. This way you puff onto the ground and slide a small distance. Marth has an AMAZING wavedash and there's many applications of this for him. I'm not sure how useful this is since it is very hard, but Marth can do two forward aerials in a single short hop. I wouldn't spend too much time practicing it since it'd take a while, but the technique has pretty big combo potential.

I gotta run, but I'll post more later.

Oh, a quick note. To expand your aerial game, both of you should try these:

1) short hop (talked about this before)
2) fast fall - after the peak of your jump, hit down on the joystick to fall faster. This way your attacks connect faster, you land faster, you recover faster, etc. etc.
3) L cancel - As you're landing from aerial attacks, if you press R or L, you recover from your attacks MUCH faster. If you want to see what I mean, practice it with either Link's swordplant or Bowser's backward aerial. Just press R right before landing. Falco can combo his aerial down A into a shine if you L cancel the aerial down. Marth recovers much quicker from his down A and his back A. I think Marth's down A recovery is paaaiiinfully slow otherwise.

haha. ONE more note. Try short hop --> laser --> fast fall. You should press B RIGHT AFTER you jump. If you do it right, the laser should be pretty low (about normal height), and the whole process should be very fast. Once you can do this, try moving forward while doing this. The basic idea behind this is that instead of just running or jumping at your enemy, this way you can approach your enemy while bombarding him with lasers. It's pretty likely for them to keep their shield up if you can do this right, so either their shield will drain, or you can get a grab in, OR your laser will hit them and you can crush them since they're stunned by your laser....in theory at least.

Give it a shot if you have time.

Sweet,

Thanks for the extra tips guys. Some of the advance stuff, there just isn't time, but a lot of that (Marth's tilt up-A for example) is definitely worth trying out.

Game day is Saturday so it's right around the corner. We're doing some remodel work to my folks' house, so Smash has been out for the last 2 days (!) All done now though so hopefully we'll get some good work in tomorrow. Thanks again, I'll let you know how it goes!!!

Before I get started, I'd just like to say that whoever claimed that Pikachu isn't tournament legal is dead wrong. Now, onto the advice.[quote name='chosen1s']
1) Game & Watch: "Fire Attack" appears to have Priority over all attacks. Dude spams this move while his buddy runs around and attacks. Its range seems to cover behind, above, and in front of him. Air attacks, frontal attacks, everything fails but getting behind him and attacking (which is easy to defend against). Suggestions? (No, standing back with Mario, etc and launching fireballs doesn't work. His buddy engages Mario/Fox/Falco while G&W molests the other one - or both if you're standing near each other - with that dang fire attack). Additionally, his parachute air attack and that (key) down-attack (in the air) seems invincible. True?

2) Dealing with Pikachu - Pikachu's attacks also seem to all have priority over the characters I use. True, or does my timing just need to be tweaked?

3) On the Fox Ship Level (the "classic" one) my buddy and I frequently found ourselves getting "stuck" in the corner on the right/lower side of the level where the ship makes a corner. I can't figure out how we're attacking, and "they" are attacking, yet we're the only ones taking damage. What were we doing wrong? Suggestions?

The Priority list is really what I would appreciate more than anything though. I don't mind getting "cheated" if I know it's inescapable. If it's a matter of my improving my timing fine, but it would help me to know when a seemingly 50/50 battle isn't going my way if never will (and thus I should avoid) or if I need to take a slightly different approach.[/quote]
First off, it's a nice thing to know that P1 has priority over all other players. P2 has priority over P3/4, etc. It's not really all that important, but if you see an attack of your's fail, that may be a reason.

1) G&W's moves are really weird, since they have a lot of pre-lag, but they're pretty good. His down+a in the air (dair), his parachute (nair), and his Fire smash attack all have priority, but the fire smash is easy to see coming. Jump over him, and he's a sitting duck. His parachute is the only part of the attack that can actually hit you, so if you hit his body, you won't take damage until your character smacks the bottom of the chute. The key is harder to avoid since it has "splash damage" when it hits the ground. It's better to just roll out of the way than block it.

2) Pikachu's forward smash actually has invincibility frames in it, which may explain some of your problems. His uair can also spike people at the right angle, but it has to be fairly precise (the tail has to be on its way down). So to answer your question, your timing may need tweaking, and yes, he has lots of priority.

3) I actually can't tell what you're saying. Sorry.

It seems like you've gotten some other stellar advice, so I'll stop here. Hope I was some help.

You guys all helped SO much, I can't tell you how much we appreciated it! I'll give you the update:

First, we played the original pair on the 29th a few hours before the UFC Fight. Me and my friend had improved (thanks largely to your advice here) SO MUCH that we took the first 5 games in a row. Later others who came early for the fight were allowed to play and the "rivalry" matches went away. However, I found out yesterday that the one kid (he's actually 20 and the better of the two) was so angry about being beaten that he just left. He said he wasn't into UFC and had only come for Smash, but apparently not so...

Second, we went back to the other kids' house before all the New Year's parties really got going and played him and his brother. Again, we completely dominated. This was actually when we found out that other kid (don't want to use names) had left the UFC night because he was upset about losing in Smash.

So, that's my update. Thank you guys SO MUCH for all the help - I can't even tell you how much I appreciate it. It's not even so much the winning (though that was awesome) as it was the restoration of our dignity and being able to reconnect (respectably) with kids we used to play with who are now grown and are now true adult friends. I can't say thanks enough for all the great tips and pointers.

Sounds like someone did some sweeping up. 'Grats.

You shouldn't be focusing on that. Studying priority will not get you better. It's good to know which attacks override others, yes, but you should focus on getting your attacks out quicker than the opponent and setting up combos, in which priority doesn't matter.

You might want to hit up www.smashboards.com if you're willing to spend some time understanding well-known terms and technique names.

Nice advice, underscore. haha. Congrats on your win!

[quote name='Under_Score']You shouldn't be focusing on that. Studying priority will not get you better. It's good to know which attacks override others, yes, but you should focus on getting your attacks out quicker than the opponent and setting up combos, in which priority doesn't matter.

You might want to hit up www.smashboards.com if you're willing to spend some time understanding well-known terms and technique names.[/QUOTE]

That's good advice. Much as I love Smash, at this point (having a career and all with the next vacation FAR in the future) I'm just going to wait out Brawl. With the 64 version I was unbelievably good, and when Melee came out being "at one" with the 64 very nearly ruined Melee for me altogether.

As a matter of fact, I went a good 5 years without playing it at all because it was too frustrating having my characters "tweaked" - those fractional response differences (Don't get me started on all the changes to Fox as a player) killed me. It wasn't until I had been separated from the game for so much time that I was able to come back and enjoy it (my pre-conceived skill set had eroded and I was able to re-write old instincts that were too engrained before). Don't know if that makes sense.

To summarize, I don't want to attach myself too much to Melee right now when Brawl is going to be the gold standard in a couple months.

Thanks SO much to everybody though who contributed to our great victory this Christmas. The 20-year-old came over one last time a week after New Years' for a final Melee with one of his buddies. We had a lot of fun and it was a great end to one of the craziest Christmas seasons I have ever had. I really appreciate you guys.

Just doing what comes naturally. Hey wait, I didn't help much at all!

And yeah, it probably wouldn't be the best idea to start playing Melee now, what with it's superior looming in the distance. Although, some practice wouldn't hurt to get really reacquainted with the controls, and whatnot.