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Team Fortress 2 Discussion Thread


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#31 crystalklear64

crystalklear64

Posted 03 February 2009 - 04:22 PM

Decloak time is what, 0.5 seconds? Just sit on top of it and decloak, you'll get your tap.

If a demo takes more than the decloak time to trigger, he's baaaaad.

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#32 Hydro2Oxide

Hydro2Oxide

Posted 03 February 2009 - 05:52 PM

If a demo takes more than the decloak time to trigger, he's baaaaad.


Well it's called TEAM Fortress for a reason. Get someone to kill/distract the Demoman!

#33 Serik

Serik

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 12:23 AM

Uhhh, let's not forget that the spy got a huge buff a few updates ago. Ammo packs and dispensers recharge cloak.

In fact, I think cloak recharge makes playing the spy too easy. Lately I've been absolutely owning as a spy on Badwater, at least once I memorized the location of all the ammo packs. Now I have my attack and retreat vectors completely mapped out :D

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#34 shinryuu

shinryuu

Posted 04 February 2009 - 05:24 PM

Nah, spy isn't too easy. I still see a bunch of scrub spies.

That last update = heaven for Heavies. They've tweaked that minigun too much now. That thing is hella accurate now. Not sure about the flare gun. Thought it was fine as it is. Now it's annoying if you're playing a lower-hp class. What I do like about this last update after playing a few games now, is that crits are less likely. Horrah.
:-#

#35 Hydro2Oxide

Hydro2Oxide

Posted 04 February 2009 - 07:02 PM

Nah, spy isn't too easy. I still see a bunch of scrub spies.

That last update = heaven for Heavies. They've tweaked that minigun too much now. That thing is hella accurate now. Not sure about the flare gun. Thought it was fine as it is. Now it's annoying if you're playing a lower-hp class. What I do like about this last update after playing a few games now, is that crits are less likely. Horrah.


I think you're over reacting, look at the comparisons. It's a 10% buff at most.

#36 shinryuu

shinryuu

Posted 04 February 2009 - 07:15 PM

I think that just verifies what I said. I didn't mean pin-point accurate, but.. more accurate. 10% doesn't seem much, but in-game you can definitely tell the difference.
:-#

#37 Hydro2Oxide

Hydro2Oxide

Posted 04 February 2009 - 07:55 PM

I think that just verifies what I said. I didn't mean pin-point accurate, but.. more accurate. 10% doesn't seem much, but in-game you can definitely tell the difference.


Oh I totally agree but it just reinforces the fact you do NOT take the heavy head on or alone.

#38 Sporadic

Sporadic

    done with this site

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 01:21 AM

Take your lumps like a man, Private Twinkle Toes!
February 4, 2009 - Greg Cherlin


On Tuesday we shipped an update that added a bunch of features / bugfixes / balancing tweaks that came out of the community's feedback. In particular, it made some changes to the underlying TF damage system, and as part of that, it modified the way critical hits are determined. We thought it might be interesting to dig a little into the change, and hopefully give you some insight into our thinking.

First, a quick primer on how the critical hit system works. Each player's chance of successfully rolling for a critical hit depends on two factors:

- A base chance, which is fixed per weapon (2% for all non-melee weapons, 15% for melee)

- An additional bonus, which is based on the amount of damage you've done to enemies in the last 20 seconds. This bonus linearly scales with damage up to a maximum of 10%.

There are two paradigms used for when to roll, and what happens on success:

- Rapid-fire weapons roll for critical hits once per second, instead of every shot. If they roll a crit, the next 2 seconds worth of their fire are marked as critical hits.

- Non-rapid fire weapons roll for critical hits each time you fire, and if they roll a crit, only that shot is marked as a critical hit.

- The sniper rifle and spy knife only score critical hits on headshots and backstabs respectively. They never roll for critical hits.

We had a few things we wanted to change with the old system:

- Reduce the overall number of critical hits occurring in the game.

- Make critical hits more skill / performance based.

Here are the actual changes we made, taken from the release notes:

- Base critical hit chance is now 2% (was 5%)

- Bonus range based on damage done changed from 0%-15% to 0%-10

- Damage range required for bonus changed from 0-1600 to 0-800

Lets dig a little deeper into these. First, the base critical hit chance was reduced from 5% to 2%. This means that if you haven't done any damage to an enemy, your crit chance is now just under half what it was previously. Secondly, the size of the bonus range was reduced by a third, but the amount of damage needed to earn that bonus was halved. To understand the effect of that, it's useful to graph it:

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As you can see, the new crit chance is slightly lower across the board, which we wanted. More importantly though, is that the rate at which the crit chance increases based on the amount of recent damage you've done. We like to think of that recent damage total as a rough measure of your performance.

In thinking about the change we wanted to make to critical hits, we decided that there was a point on the graph of particular interest to us, and that was the point at which your critical hit chance was as much a result of your performance as it was the base chance. If you look at at (A) on the old line, you'll see that point isn't reached until you've done 550 recent damage, a feat that occurs about as often as our backstab code works correctly. That point is reached at (B) on the new line, around the point where you've done 175 recent damage. This means that if you've just singlehandedly killed an enemy Demoman/Soldier/Pyro/Heavy, your next 20 seconds worth of crit chances are already more a result of that kill than the base chance. As a result, if you're a highly skilled player, you're going to fire significantly more critical hits than those around you. And remember, if you've just killed 2 or 3 enemies, now's the time to push!


http://www.teamfortr...ost.php?id=2221

#39 crystalklear64

crystalklear64

Posted 05 February 2009 - 01:55 AM

cool to see, though I like to play on either no-crit or always-crit servers in any event.

giving crits to people who are already dominating never seemed like a good idea to me.

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#40 Hydro2Oxide

Hydro2Oxide

Posted 05 February 2009 - 06:24 AM

cool to see, though I like to play on either no-crit or always-crit servers in any event.

giving crits to people who are already dominating never seemed like a good idea to me.


It's the momentum effect.

Thanks for the tip Sporadic, updated the OP. Very cool blog post, I'm glad to see the realized the copious amounts of crits at 20% was too extreme.

#41 crystalklear64

crystalklear64

Posted 05 February 2009 - 08:13 AM

I just thought it'd make more sense that the more a team is losing the higher crit chance to help even things out so the rounds don't end really fast when the teams are really unbalanced. Chances are that the crits won't be used to their full effect anyway in the hands of the inferior team, and if you're on the winning team, its fun to have some extra challenge.

2 minute rounds aren't really fun for anyone.

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#42 Hydro2Oxide

Hydro2Oxide

Posted 06 February 2009 - 02:28 AM

I just thought it'd make more sense that the more a team is losing the higher crit chance to help even things out so the rounds don't end really fast when the teams are really unbalanced. Chances are that the crits won't be used to their full effect anyway in the hands of the inferior team, and if you're on the winning team, its fun to have some extra challenge.

2 minute rounds aren't really fun for anyone.


Someone doesn't listen to Dev commentary ;)

The game was built on a momentum factor to stop from constant stalemates. All the map geometry and spawn times favor the attacking team. The only thing that favors defense is their spawn is generally closer to the point of conflict (See Granary, Dustbowl etc.) except for Payload maps.

#43 crystalklear64

crystalklear64

Posted 08 February 2009 - 02:30 AM

Well then I guess I'm glad their intentions aren't constantly being met.

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#44 Shrapnellistic

Shrapnellistic

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 08:12 PM

Any website that archives user created maps for Team Fortress 2? Google failed me.

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#45 Hydro2Oxide

Hydro2Oxide

Posted 09 February 2009 - 09:02 PM

Any website that archives user created maps for Team Fortress 2? Google failed me.


FPSBanana.com has scripts, maps, skins, sound effects, anything you need.

#46 Shrapnellistic

Shrapnellistic

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Posted 09 February 2009 - 09:17 PM

Convenient.

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#47 Kayden

Kayden

Posted 09 February 2009 - 09:52 PM

Where the hell is my engineer update? I've been waiting ages for it.

As for achievements, just join an achievement server. I unlocked all 9 weapons in about 2 hours. I was playing legit for about 5 hours and got one achievement, I joined the achievement server and had 10 in 2 minutes.

I hate the achievements, they're so impractical. Three medics uber at the same time? How likely is that to ever happen? Kill 50 scouts with the needle gun? If you're any good as a medic, you aren't using the needle gun. Kill 50 medics with the bone saw?

The achievements that make sense are heal 1,000,000 HP or put out 200 people on fire. That's stuff that happens through normal playing. How many times are you going to uber a scout? Even if you did, what are the chances he'd kill three people?

Achievements should enhance the game, not add arbitrary goals that will only distract you.

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Kayden you would be awesome in Congress.


#48 Hydro2Oxide

Hydro2Oxide

Posted 10 February 2009 - 01:47 AM

Kill 50 scouts with the needle gun? If you're any good as a medic, you aren't using the needle gun.


Valve was pretty new to the idea of achievements, Medic was way too hard, Pyro was way too easy, Heavy was just right. They've hit a good point. I've got a lot of bones to pick with you though.

First, let's get to this quote. I'm sorry but that statement is so wrong I can't even begin to tell you, but I'll try. Any medic who sees a scout coming, that scout is dead due to the Blut. Now of course if you have the Blut you likely don't need this achievement but still. Any "Good medic" knows that if his patient isn't protecting him he needs to cover his own as. As a "Career" scout, battle ready medics are a big fear. I'm only 26% faster than him so he can backpedal + Blut me to death quicker than I can meat shot him. A full clip of close range needles does 400-600 damage, 15 needles and I'm down.

Secondly, why farm achievements? Valve puts a lot of work in to making them and straight up farming them is just disrespectful. I'll admit I farmed the medic ones for obvious reasons but Pyro and Heavy I did legitimately (I have zonked out stats though because I did do a few at first but then I thought 'This is lame')

#49 Kayden

Kayden

Posted 10 February 2009 - 01:58 AM

The achievements don't matter to me;their only interest is I need them for the weapons. I don't have months to play on the chance I'll meet arbitrary criteria. Even if I did, I'd be long bored before I unlocked everything. This way, I get to unlock the weapons while I'm still interested in the game.

If the weapons were unlocked some other, rational way, I'd do it "legit", but as it stands, the weapons would do me no good if I was sick of the game before I even unlocked them.

Valve was pretty new to the idea of achievements, Medic was way too hard, Pyro was way too easy, Heavy was just right. They've hit a good point. I've got a lot of bones to pick with you though.

First, let's get to this quote. I'm sorry but that statement is so wrong I can't even begin to tell you, but I'll try. Any medic who sees a scout coming, that scout is dead due to the Blut. Now of course if you have the Blut you likely don't need this achievement but still. Any "Good medic" knows that if his patient isn't protecting him he needs to cover his own as. As a "Career" scout, battle ready medics are a big fear. I'm only 26% faster than him so he can backpedal + Blut me to death quicker than I can meat shot him. A full clip of close range needles does 400-600 damage, 15 needles and I'm down.

Secondly, why farm achievements? Valve puts a lot of work in to making them and straight up farming them is just disrespectful. I'll admit I farmed the medic ones for obvious reasons but Pyro and Heavy I did legitimately (I have zonked out stats though because I did do a few at first but then I thought 'This is lame')


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Kayden you would be awesome in Congress.


#50 crystalklear64

crystalklear64

Posted 10 February 2009 - 02:57 AM

I don't care enough about them either way to try for them, farming or "legit".

None of them have made me go omg i must have that.

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#51 Hydro2Oxide

Hydro2Oxide

Posted 10 February 2009 - 03:09 AM

I guess I just love the game to a far greater extent than you guys (Not in a condescending way)

#52 crystalklear64

crystalklear64

Posted 10 February 2009 - 03:23 AM

I guess I just love the game to a far greater extent than you guys (Not in a condescending way)

That's probably true now. I hardly play now that my internet is terrible, so I can really only play as engineer or medic and not very well at that. Its a shame because scout, spy, and sniper were my 3 favorites and now playing them is completely out of the question.

You've got to understand that when I did play, there were no unlockables and it was fine. Now the classes I cared about don't have those. I'm forced to play medic/engineer, but the unlocks do me no good.

But overall, I just added up all the hour totals, and I've only played 300 hours which is probably nothing compared to those who really love the game.

I can't blame the game for my internet, but other games, like RTS, can handle lag so much better as it only translates into slight input lag rather than teleporting around a map (which is useful as a medic sometimes, makes it hard for people to hit you while the lock of the medigun means you don't have to aim, just jump around like a ninny and hope the server doesn't have a ping limit)

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#53 Kayden

Kayden

Posted 10 February 2009 - 03:39 AM

O_O... I think I have like 14 hours for the engineer, 7 for the medic and MAYBE 2 hours total for everything else.

I can't snipe worth a damn. The scout is too fast for me. I make a horse shit spy. Demoman was better in TFC with the demo pack... Heavy is ok, but he doesn't make me moist. Solder is boring. The pyro is funny to listen to, but he doesn't really interest me to play.

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Kayden you would be awesome in Congress.


#54 crystalklear64

crystalklear64

Posted 10 February 2009 - 03:52 AM

Well, think about how many hours you've put into d2/gw and the comparison is similar. Compared to a game that you really love, its a small amount.

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#55 darthbudge

darthbudge

    The Real DB

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 03:57 AM

I would have to say I just made one of my most awesome scout runs in history...

I was on 2fort, and I got down to the enemy intel room, only to discover that a friend heavy had picked up just a second ago, and then promptly died back out in the hallway, so I run out there and immediately come face to face with an enemy soldier, one shot and he is dead. I quickly grab the intel and make a break for the stairs, only to find a Natasha wielding Heavy and a demo standing in the stairs. I just charge forward and I can feel the heavy's bullets slowing me down, but somehow I make it out alive.

I get out onto the battlements and about 3 snipers are shooting at me, but I still make it across. Finally, as I am running through the hallway's of my own base, I suddenly hit something that stops me, it was a cloaked spy, I quickly shoot him in the face and finally make it back with the intel alive.

Maybe it wasn't that impressive to others... but I was amazed at myself. :lol:


#56 Kayden

Kayden

Posted 10 February 2009 - 04:11 AM

I really didn't put that much time into Guild Wars. :lol: I played the hell out of the beta and beat the game like the first day or two it was out. I tried PvP, but PUGs are always retarded, especially against koreans. Then I quit playing until Factions. Got that and played for a few hours into the compain... got bored of the same old... I had Nightfall for months before I even opened it... I don't think I've even installed Eye of the North. :lol: I was just pissed at how they handled the expansions. You couldn't mix the characters from the different expansions. I felt robbed.

I was level 20 (20 times over) so there was no point to leveling. The gear sucks at every level, so no point in that. The only thing worth getting were skills... but you really only need a few elites you couldn't buy and even then, you really didn't need them if you didn't PVP or already had your build done. I think all the things that were meant to make it accessable just made it boring. Yea, any shmuck and jump in and play with you at any time; the biggest problem with that is that any shmuck can jump in and play at any time.

As for Diablo 2... :lol: Let's hope no game does that to me again. Playing a game with my GF for some reason immediately makes it un fun. She loved D2, so I'm hoping when we play D3 I'll force myself through one play through and then be too sick of dealing with her to ever touch it again and save years of my life.

Well, think about how many hours you've put into d2/gw and the comparison is similar. Compared to a game that you really love, its a small amount.


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Kayden you would be awesome in Congress.


#57 Serik

Serik

    Stack of doom!

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 04:52 AM

TFC + TF2 have consumed most of my gaming time in the last 9 years.

TF2 is my most played game ever, surpassing Battlefield 1942/Desert Combat. The fun per minute ratio of TF2 is off scale. Plus Valve's still updating the damn game!

I'm half serious when I say I could play exclusively play TF2 for the next 5 years and be totally fine with it.

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Playing:
:pc: Civilization IV: Beyond the Sword, Team Fortress 2


#58 shinryuu

shinryuu

Posted 10 February 2009 - 05:18 AM

Valve was pretty new to the idea of achievements, Medic was way too hard, Pyro was way too easy, Heavy was just right. They've hit a good point. I've got a lot of bones to pick with you though.

Medic achievements = hard? There are a few that are seriously impossible in a real game (but can be done in smaller servers or custom maps), but otherwise, a lot of them are very easy. Perhaps you don't enjoy playing Medic? I don't know, I found those achievements to be somewhat easy compared to the Heavy. Heavy is my least played class, but still... Pyro, yeah, you're right about those achievements.
:-#

#59 darthbudge

darthbudge

    The Real DB

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 02:19 PM

Yeah, well the problem with the Medic achievements, is that there are some of them that require cooperation from another team mate, which if you are playing on a pub server, you don't always get.


#60 Sporadic

Sporadic

    done with this site

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Posted 11 February 2009 - 04:44 AM

Let's show off our stats.

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I really suck at Sniper, Spy and Scout but I'm really finding my stride with the demoman. It's funny how easy and overpowered that class is. Once you figure out the arcs and where to lay stickies, it's easy to take out massive chunks of the other team.

With a good player, I'm almost unstoppable with the medic. I'm amazed at how many people uber heavies at the beginning of a match. It's almost always better to go with a demo since they can run in (as long as they ignore the people and there are no good pyros with air blast) and take out the buildings, leading the way for your team to steamroll them.

Another thing that is annoying me on public servers are people who build teleporters at the beginning but never put up an exit. I always stay behind, level all of the entrances up to 3 than change to my class and there is always only one exit up no matter how many people put down entrances. And don't even get me started on stupid engineers that refuse to hit anybody's stuff besides their own. "Yes ignore my level 3 sentry that's on fire so you can try to build a level 1 sentry with half the other team bearing down on you :bomb:"