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Obama Care Could Be Deadly


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#151 irideabike

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 12:14 AM

seriously, do you guys really think people are so stupid they need to be told that being fat and overweight is bad for their health.

#152 HowStern

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 01:02 AM

Uhh, did your ead the link I posted where people couldn't identify the location of their hearts and lungs?
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#153 mykevermin

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 02:23 AM

seriously, do you guys really think people are so stupid they need to be told that being fat and overweight is bad for their health.


Yes and no.

They know that being overweight is a health risk.

But they don't consider themselves overweight, or they think themselves an exception to the rule.

It's called the fundamental attribution error.
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#154 speedracer

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 11:00 PM

http://www.motherjon...themselves-foot

Yesterday the House Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations decided to investigate the practice of recission. This is when you pay your premiums for years to a healthcare insurer, then get sick, and then have your insurance cancelled. The insurance industry executives at the hearing did not exactly cover themselves with glory:

A Texas nurse said she lost her coverage, after she was diagnosed with aggressive breast cancer, for failing to disclose a visit to a dermatologist for acne.

The sister of an Illinois man who died of lymphoma said his policy was rescinded for the failure to report a possible aneurysm and gallstones that his physician noted in his chart but did not discuss with him.

....Late in the hearing, [Bart] Stupak, the committee chairman, put the executives on the spot. Stupak asked each of them whether he would at least commit his company to immediately stop rescissions except where they could show "intentional fraud."

The answer from all three executives: "No."

Rep. John Dingell (D-Mich.) said that a public insurance plan should be a part of any overhaul because it would force private companies to treat consumers fairly or risk losing them. "This is precisely why we need a public option," Dingell said.

Even the Republicans on the committee couldn't defend the insurance company position. A few more hearings like this and getting a public option into healthcare reform is suddenly going to look like a real possibility. Nice going, guys.


How could anything be worse again?

#155 Paco

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Posted 17 June 2009 - 11:56 PM

I think the reverse is true and I'll explain why. Statistics show that obesity levels are highest for the poor. (see: Correlation between Obesity and Poverty)
So, it's safe to say the majority of these people have no health insurance.

Perhaps if they did, and they had a doctor to "measure their waist" so to speak and tell them they need to lose weight or else, obesity levels would drop. Helping eliminate heart disease and other obesity related diseases and cut care costs.


BOOM. HEADSHOT.

But this is true. The more poor you are the fatter you tend to be since the cheapest foods are often the worst for you. But another thing that would help is if we stopped deep frying, refrying, ULTRA GRILLING and choking everything with preservatives. Everything has so much artificial shit in there that it's simply amazing. I'm fat and yes I know it's bad for me, but currently the cost of HEALTHY food is so fucking amazing that it's cheaper to just get the cheapest shit you can find.

Also of worthy note is that when people go to foreign countries they tend to lose weight if they stay there for a certain amount of time that's longer then a visit. Not shoving preservatives and additional shit tends to fix the body. I lost significant amounts of weight just going to Mexico for a while because the food was more natural and I wasn't eating SKUNCH
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#156 JolietJake

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 01:13 AM

I'm sure the diarrhea helped too. :lol:

I enjoy the videos and puns posted by Joliet Jake. I think he's almost as funny as my favorite comedian, Dane Cook. Now excuse me while I listen to Fallout Boy's music on their myspace page.


#157 ninju D

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 01:19 AM

The first and most serious problem with healthcare in this country is that it is a for-profit industry.
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#158 Paco

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 03:00 AM

I'm sure the diarrhea helped too. :lol:


That's only crap we say to keep white people out so they don't ruin the women. I have the shits far more in America then in Mexico since I'm not getting refried preservatives up the bung hole.
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#159 Allnatural

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 02:45 PM

I'm fat and yes I know it's bad for me, but currently the cost of HEALTHY food is so fucking amazing that it's cheaper to just get the cheapest shit you can find.

That's a crock of shit. Are you going to tell me that a bag of carrots is more expensive than a can of Pringles? If so, is it significantly more expensive? Is whole grain bread that much more than white? Is water that much more than soda!?


"Why you filing for bankruptcy man?"

"I ate too much fresh fruit."

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#160 depascal22

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 02:56 PM

Hey RAM. It's called a garden and it's pretty cheap.

Hell, you can even grow tomatos without a patch these days and you can do damn near anything with them. Put those with a 99 cent head of lettuce and you have something called a salad. Eat one of those before every meal and you won't have as much room for the processed crap that you might eat for the entree.

It's a bad conspiracy by the grocers of America. They push the junk food and soda because the profit margin is huge. They can leave the stuff on the shelves for days while the veggies go bad after a couple days. Also, if they pushed veggies and fruits, people might figure out they can grow the stuff on their own and just cut out the grocery store for everything but milk, break, and meat.

Another thing you can do to be healthier is to cut out soda completely. It's got absolutely zero nutritional value and a ton of processed sugar but I'm pretty sure that some CAGs would be willing to rip up the Bill of Rights before they gave up Mountain Dew.

But hey, this isn't a get healthier thread. This thread is all about how Obama is trying to kill all of us. It's about leaving the HMOs to do what they've been doing for decades now. Deny. Deny. Deny.

#161 tivo

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 03:24 PM

Who the hell is ninju D?

#162 depascal22

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 03:27 PM

Who the hell is ninju D?


A guy that doesn't refer to himself as SuburbanJesus.

#163 UncleBob

UncleBob

Posted 18 June 2009 - 03:46 PM

obama/dems want:
- forced healthcare, everyone has coverage, people without insurance are fined, like car insurance.


Hey - I wasn't the first one to compare health insurance to auto insurance! How come no one attacked Koggit? :p
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#164 depascal22

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 03:51 PM

Hey - I wasn't the first one to compare health insurance to auto insurance! How come no one attacked Koggit? :p


Because we like Koggit.

So conservatives would rather have people fall by the wayside because they can't get coverage.

What's the big deal about forced coverage? People without it drag not only themselves but their family down the tubes without it. Kids don't go to college, homes go into foreclosure, etc. Is this what conservatives really want for our country? Are you guys so selfish that you can't see that all Americans need to be able to financially survive serious health issues?

You guys act like the government is taking every single dollar out of your pocket. Why don't you look at Denmark or Sweden. Both countries have tax levels over 50%. Even with that high tax burden, the people are consistently rated at the top when it comes to happiness. Why? The people have little to no stress. You still have money to go out to eat, buy a bigger home, but there's no worry that a broken leg could end your life as you know it. You don't have to worry about getting cancer and getting your insurance cancelled. I guess, conservatives would rather have a small sliver of the rich be happy while the rest of us schlubs scrape along.

#165 UncleBob

UncleBob

Posted 18 June 2009 - 03:57 PM

What's the big deal about the federal government forcing people to spend money on something they may not want or need? Really?

Why don't you look at Denmark or Sweden. Both countries have tax levels over 50%.

Has there ever been a study to actually show the true tax rate of various countries around the world? I'm looking for something that includes both Federal and State income taxes, State, County and Local sales taxes - and then adds in all the various corporate and payroll taxes that individuals end up paying (through the costs of higher goods and lower wages). I'd be interested in the results of that study.

Anywhoo, my interest isn't *just* about how much taxes I'm paying in. It's also about how much the Federal Government is spending that they SIMPLY DO NOT HAVE. PERIOD. It won't do a lick of good for our government to be providing a health care solution when the fit hits the shan and China starts calling in their chips are such.

I know living beyond one's means and spending more money than you make is the American way and all, but this needs to stop.

Edited by UncleBob, 18 June 2009 - 04:09 PM.

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#166 depascal22

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 04:08 PM

You don't need health care? Really?

To make this more conservative friendly, businesses wouldn't have to provide health benefits and their profits would go up. They could use said money to hire more people and lower unemployment. That would mean less people sucking on the gov't tit.

But it's really just about you, isn't it?

#167 irideabike

irideabike

Posted 18 June 2009 - 04:18 PM

You guys act like the government is taking every single dollar out of your pocket. Why don't you look at Denmark or Sweden. Both countries have tax levels over 50%. Even with that high tax burden, the people are consistently rated at the top when it comes to happiness. Why? The people have little to no stress. You still have money to go out to eat, buy a bigger home, but there's no worry that a broken leg could end your life as you know it. You don't have to worry about getting cancer and getting your insurance cancelled. I guess, conservatives would rather have a small sliver of the rich be happy while the rest of us schlubs scrape along.


You can't honestly say you have gone through life worrying about losing everything because you broke your leg and had no health insurance. I went without health insurance for 7-8 years and that thought didn't cross my mind once.

#168 UncleBob

UncleBob

Posted 18 June 2009 - 04:19 PM

You don't need health care? Really?

To make this more conservative friendly, businesses wouldn't have to provide health benefits and their profits would go up. They could use said money to hire more people and lower unemployment. That would mean less people sucking on the gov't tit.

But it's really just about you, isn't it?


What businesses have to provide health benefits now?

Now, take all the "newly created" jobs from your bubbly picture and stack that against the rise in corporate taxes that the federal government would put in place to "help cover" the costs of universal health coverage. Wonder how many jobs that'll cost...

And I'm not sure how this is "about me". I pay for my heath care, thank you very much. I'm not screaming to anyone that'll listen "Hey, gimme free health care. I need it. Who cares what it'll cost everyone else."
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#169 RAMSTORIA

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 04:31 PM


To make this more conservative friendly, businesses wouldn't have to provide health benefits and their profits would go up. They could use said money to hire more people and lower unemployment. That would mean less people sucking on the gov't tit.




unless of course theres a "pay or play" mandate on employers, meaning employers would be forced to pay higher taxes if they didnt offer insurance to employees.

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#170 willardhaven

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 05:00 PM

And I'm not sure how this is "about me". I pay for my heath care, thank you very much. I'm not screaming to anyone that'll listen "Hey, gimme free health care. I need it. Who cares what it'll cost everyone else."


It's supposed to lower gross cost for the country, so it wil cost less. just because you are healthy and can afford insurance doesn't mean everyone else can. A lot of sick people can't even get coverage within reason because of their existing medical problems. Do you even think about other people?

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#171 Msut77

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 05:38 PM

Hey - I wasn't the first one to compare health insurance to auto insurance! How come no one attacked Koggit? :p


It wasn't so much that you compared health insurance to car insurance it is that you compared people like koggs sister to a wrecked car.

I recently posted a link which pointed out that insurance companies target people with expensive illnesses and then using any semi legal excuse to force them out, the heads of these companies flat out refuse to stop these practices.

What's the big deal about the federal government forcing people to spend money on something they may not want or need? Really?


Again, using the comparison to auto insurance has two different dimensions. There are people who have never been in an accident who buy insurance and that is a much different comparison than saying a loved one is like a wrecked 1988 Toyota Celica.

Now as for something I have pointed out before, saying "we can't afford a different system" say a system where everyone is covered is hogwash. We already pay more for what we have now than anyone a new system would bring costs down and even a not insignificant portion of the deficit.

Edited by Msut77, 18 June 2009 - 06:00 PM.


#172 tivo

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 06:00 PM

^^ how much (time and money) would it take to transfer our current system to the one you envision?

#173 Msut77

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 06:10 PM

^^ how much (time and money) would it take to transfer our current system to the one you envision?


I will probably sincerely regret this but I am going to go ahead and take your question (even though it is more of a subject for pages and pages of white paper) as one in good faith.

Probably less time than you would think, one possible way to do it would be to simply expand medicare, the costs assuming that you do not see a restriction on bargaining (a blatant ripoff imho) the way there was in plan d would end up being less. Something I have said before is that the status quo will probably remain until other big corporations realize they are getting screwed too with healthcare costs the way they are.

#174 RAMSTORIA

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 06:15 PM

Probably less time than you would think, one possible way to do it would be to simply expand medicare.


expanding a system that spent 32 billion in improper payments and is running on IOUs isnt a good plan.

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#175 ToadallyAwesome

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 08:41 PM

Because we like Koggit.

So conservatives would rather have people fall by the wayside because they can't get coverage.

What's the big deal about forced coverage? People without it drag not only themselves but their family down the tubes without it. Kids don't go to college, homes go into foreclosure, etc. Is this what conservatives really want for our country? Are you guys so selfish that you can't see that all Americans need to be able to financially survive serious health issues?

You guys act like the government is taking every single dollar out of your pocket. Why don't you look at Denmark or Sweden. Both countries have tax levels over 50%. Even with that high tax burden, the people are consistently rated at the top when it comes to happiness. Why? The people have little to no stress. You still have money to go out to eat, buy a bigger home, but there's no worry that a broken leg could end your life as you know it. You don't have to worry about getting cancer and getting your insurance cancelled. I guess, conservatives would rather have a small sliver of the rich be happy while the rest of us schlubs scrape along.



Forced coverage is exactly how Massachusetts works. Living costs are pretty high here too. I am a decently healthy 20-something and given the choice I would probably not get insurance for a year so I can buy a car (to get to work no less) or finish paying off a loan. It would be really nice if there was a cheap public option where you just have enough to get by on until you make more money (finish paying school loans, etc.) and can pay for private insurance.

I think forced insurance can save money in the long-run. If you have and pay for it you are going to use it so various conditions can be fixed before they compound or worsen (which then really costs a lot) but it is hard to pay sometimes when you are trying to make rent and school tuition. It is especially useless when you end up with an expensive condition and they give you the boot.

I have mixed feelings on it but I think a cheap public option would work nicely. I have no idea where to begin on thinking about the issue with people that have pre-existing conditions. The better we get an extending people's lives the more very difficult moral/cost dilemmas we are going to face.

#176 speedracer

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Posted 18 June 2009 - 10:43 PM

You can't honestly say you have gone through life worrying about losing everything because you broke your leg and had no health insurance. I went without health insurance for 7-8 years and that thought didn't cross my mind once.

Ignoring risk doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means you're foolish.

#177 UncleBob

UncleBob

Posted 19 June 2009 - 02:42 AM

Ignoring risk doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means you're foolish.


Meteors could rocket in from space and kill all life on Earth.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."

#178 Koggit

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 02:57 AM

Blah blah blah can we please stop treating this like some sort of political issue? It's for debate sure but it's an issue of governance wholly separate from politics... please please please don't politicize health care.

I think the car insurance analogy is almost apt in terms of liability, but not quite in terms of greater good

Mandating health insurance solves three problems, I'll save the one that's a proper auto insurance analogue for last: (i) With mandatory coverage, people who fall into the 'preexisting condition' pit do not become society's burden, (ii) With everyone having coverage people don't have reason to put off care they should get, which ultimately reduces how much we as a nation spend on total care, (iii) It prevents people from needing treatment they cannot possibly afford, which ultimately has a negative impact on all of America.

To elaborate on (iii) -- when a person cannot afford the required care they either don't get it and become a burden on society or they get it and don't pay for it, in which case they hurt our economy by going bankrupt (medical bills is #1 cause of bankruptcy in America), this is similar to the rationale of requiring liability auto insurance, it's so that when you need to pay (health care or to fix stuff you rammed into) you don't harm others by not being able to afford it (harming both taxpayers and the directly associated industry).



Again, as a disclaimer, I don't necessarily support the Obama/Dem proposal because the problem is still profit-driven HMOs...

#179 Ikohn4ever

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 03:31 AM

Meteors could rocket in from space and kill all life on Earth.

at least we would be done with your bad examples...
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#180 UncleBob

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 03:34 AM

[...] do not become society's burden [...] a burden on society [...]


For better or worse, I don't see *any* way possible that every single American (or every single person currently living in America, depending on what passes) will be able to receive the health care they need without some of these individuals becoming a burden on society.

If you can guarantee a way for this not to happen, then I'll gladly vote for whatever plan you can come up with.
"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy, instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it."