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2012 MLB Discussion


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#1081 bvharris

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:36 PM

My biggest question is who are the 8 idiots who were willing to vote for Clemens but not for Bonds?

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#1082 CaseyRyback

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:43 PM

How in the hell does Schilling get less votes than Mike Piazza?


Piazza is the greatest offensive catcher of all time, and it isn't even close.

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#1083 irideabike

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:45 PM

LOL @ people thinking they are high and mighty and shutting people out of the hall of fame as though that changes peoples perceptions about how great of players they were.

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#1084 bvharris

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:46 PM

Piazza is the greatest offensive catcher of all time, and it isn't even close.


Agreed. I'd put Piazza in before Schilling.

But this is such a stacked class, if you're going by what they accomplished on the field there are at least 10 guys on this list who should be in the Hall.

All of them should get in, in my opinion. Nearly everybody involved in baseball was complicit in the steroid era, and profited from it, and that includes many of these same writers who are voting to punish these guys now (including guys like Bagwell and Piazza who've never been formally accused of anything). Put them in the Hall, that way baseball has to wear the steroid era like a black eye forever. Trying to pretend it didn't happen serves no purpose.

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#1085 GhostShark

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:50 PM

I really dislike how Bagwell and Piazza are suffering because of the era they played in. Saying that, I would still vote in Bonds (one of the three best hitters of all-time) and Clemens (one of the three best pitchers of all-time). And Craig Biggio, how the hell did he not get in? Oh, that's right, he's not "first ballot" material to the voters. Such a joke.
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#1086 bvharris

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:53 PM

I really dislike how Bagwell and Piazza are suffering because of the era they played in.


It's disgusting.

It's not going to get easier for these guys either. Next year they have to compete with Maddux and Glavine, then with Randy Johnson and Pedro the year after. I suspect Biggio will get in eventually, but some of these guys like Piazza and Bagwell who not only 100% deserve to be there but also have never been accused of using steroids might be waiting a long time.

This is really about the egos of many members of the BBWAA. So many of these guys got swept up in that era too and failed to do their jobs in reporting on the steroid era while it was happening, now it's just about petty revenge masquerading as righteous indignation.

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#1087 KingBroly

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:55 PM

Piazza is the greatest offensive catcher of all time, and it isn't even close.


And yet, still less than 40% of the vote.
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#1088 bvharris

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:58 PM

And yet, still less than 40% of the vote.


It's obvious that in the eyes of the writers, if you played in that era you're guilty until proven innocent. Especially if you're a hitter.

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#1089 DestroVega

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:10 PM

Hall of Fame shutout.

I'd say it's about time that the BBWAA no longer gets to decide who's in and who's out. I'm not sure what the best way to do it is, but it isn't this.

I feel especially bad for a guy like Biggio, who should definitely be in the Hall of Fame and yet gets swept up in this nonsense.


Biggio wouldn't be a HOF'er if he didn't get 3,000 hits. The definition of the word compiler.

He was never a feared offensive force. Good player, not great, IMO. I don't think steroid or steroid era played any part in it.

#1090 bvharris

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:39 PM

Biggio wouldn't be a HOF'er if he didn't get 3,000 hits. The definition of the word compiler.

He was never a feared offensive force. Good player, not great, IMO. I don't think steroid or steroid era played any part in it.


You're absolutely right. Any player who hangs around long enough will get 3,000 hits, that's why it happens all the time. :roll:

Biggio's lifetime WAR puts him inside top 100 position players who ever played the game, he's certainly one of the best offensive 2nd basement ever, and he played 20 seasons providing good defense at three premium defensive positions. He wasn't an OPS machine, but that was never his role. 13 players in MLB history scored more runs than this guy.

There are plenty of players with similar profiles to Biggio in the Hall. "Compiling" as you put it isn't a knock against him, if it were easy to be as consistent as that dude was there would be more guys doing it. He absolutely deserves to be in, as do most of the guys on this ballot.

The reason he didn't get in (besides writers who seemed to categorically refuse to vote for anyone on this ballot) is because of the silly notion about whether someone is a "first ballot Hall of Famer" or not. If you're Hall worthy, you're worthy. Same thing happened to Barry Larkin, and many others. The "first ballot" distinction has always been stupid. He'll get in eventually, but it's ridiculous that he's not in now.

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#1091 tcrash247

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:33 PM

Biggio wouldn't be a HOF'er if he didn't get 3,000 hits. The definition of the word compiler.

He was never a feared offensive force. Good player, not great, IMO. I don't think steroid or steroid era played any part in it.


So Ichiro doesn't deserve to be in the HoF either? Biggio definitely deserves to be in with Piazza and Bagwell.

#1092 DestroVega

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:10 PM

So Ichiro doesn't deserve to be in the HoF either? Biggio definitely deserves to be in with Piazza and Bagwell.


Please guys. Biggio had ONE 200-hit-season.

Ichiro had TEN straight. And then his next season, (184) would be Biggio's 4th best season in 20 years.

Biggio's a solid player. Not even great, definitely not a HOF'er.

He never dominated.

#1093 DNukem170

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:19 PM

This is what happens when you have 600 voters and only about 1/2 to 2/3 actually cover baseball anymore.

And to those who sent in blank ballots, punishing even those who did not play in the steroid era, then frak you.

#1094 CaseyRyback

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:58 PM

I think the only vote percentage that really irked me when I read it was Fred McGriff's. I feel Crime Dog is a Hall of Famer, and it really surprises me that he only got 20 percent of the vote.

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#1095 62t

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:55 AM

I still don't get how Aaron "148-112, 4.61 career ERA, 0-6 in the postseason" Sele got a vote.

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#1096 Ced

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:56 AM

I like to imagine it was a ballot with a single vote for Aaron Sele. Seriously though, who the Fuck voted for Aaron Sele?
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#1097 GhostShark

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 07:04 AM

Shit, I give that guy more respect than the people that put nobody on their ballot.
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#1098 integralsmatic

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 08:29 AM

what made this is worse is that there are some writers who left it blank like Howard Bryant. Why give them a vote if they are just going to toss it away.

I can't stand the BBWA sometimes. They pretty much deemed themselves as the moral police. If steroids is cheating than what level are pine tar, amphetamines, and corked bats are on? Gaylord Perry should have never made the Hall if thats the case do to his spit balls. That is what really pissed me off is that they are cheaters in baseball without steroids but they look all holier than thou compared to these guys. The consistency is amazing.

Oh if Bert Blyleven is a HoF than Jack Morris is one too. How does that work out?

I hated what happened to Bagwell and Piazza. Piazza wasnt even named on the Mitchell report and its just lame whispers that are keeping him out.

What a crappy day for baseball and its fans.
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#1099 DestroVega

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:18 PM

I like to imagine it was a ballot with a single vote for Aaron Sele. Seriously though, who the Fuck voted for Aaron Sele?


His dad MUST have a vote.

#1100 ecwfan

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 07:31 AM

I like to imagine it was a ballot with a single vote for Aaron Sele. Seriously though, who the Fuck voted for Aaron Sele?


I was listening to MLB Network radio and they suggested that a reporter who had Sele as a clubhouse informant voted for him.

#1101 CaseyRyback

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 02:51 AM

The whole Justin Upton trade situation has gotten ridiculous. Jim Bowden was saying that he thinks Upton should try and file a grievance to see if he can become a free agent. The D-Backs really have shit all over Upton.

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#1102 GhostShark

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:17 AM

Yeah, the Rangers have moved on from him. However, Evan Grant reported that is a terrible excuse for a human being. I'm not really sold on Texas' lineup next year, but I can deal with it. For me, it all depends on Berkman, Kinsler and Cruz having good seasons, at least better than last season for Kinsler and Cruz.
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#1103 DNukem170

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 03:33 AM

The Orioles would love to have Upton, but Arizona ain't getting Bundy or Machado, so it isn't likely to happen.

#1104 integralsmatic

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 09:51 AM

The whole Justin Upton trade situation has gotten ridiculous. Jim Bowden was saying that he thinks Upton should try and file a grievance to see if he can become a free agent. The D-Backs really have shit all over Upton.



Really clueless as to why Towers would even think for a moment he would accept a trade to a team on his no trade list. That's like a restaurant trying to force a vegan to eat meat. It will never happen.

The Mariners did HUGELY overpay for him though and they should send Upton a gift basket for not accepting the trade. They gave up way too much in the deal. Top position prospect, best pitching prospect, and 2 MLB arms just for Upton. I do not think many GMs would do that but then again, the Mariners never cease to amaze me every year.
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#1105 Icegaryen

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:02 PM

Really clueless as to why Towers would even think for a moment he would accept a trade to a team on his no trade list. That's like a restaurant trying to force a vegan to eat meat. It will never happen.

The Mariners did HUGELY overpay for him though and they should send Upton a gift basket for not accepting the trade. They gave up way too much in the deal. Top position prospect, best pitching prospect, and 2 MLB arms just for Upton. I do not think many GMs would do that but then again, the Mariners never cease to amaze me every year.


I disagree, I think it was fair trade. Walker and Franklin did not have good years once they were promoted (4.69 ERA and 3.6 BB/9 in AA) ( .243/.310/.416 in AAA). Furbush was a mess before last year, Pryor is the only safe bet in the deal. Hell, I think Arizona can do better than a top 15 prospect, a top 50 prospect; both of whom had down years, and 2 relievers.

#1106 kill3r7

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Posted 12 January 2013 - 01:23 PM

The whole Justin Upton trade situation has gotten ridiculous. Jim Bowden was saying that he thinks Upton should try and file a grievance to see if he can become a free agent. The D-Backs really have shit all over Upton.


As long as D-Backs pay his salary they can shit all over him as long as they don't violate the contract. Upton has a contract and the players union to protect him. If they hold his paycheck then he has a grievance.

#1107 KingBroly

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 11:56 AM

I don't know if I like last night's Nationals trade or not. Getting Cole back is great, but losing Morse...yeah, I dunno. I'm not seeing where the Nationals are going to make up those runs with their projected lineup right now.
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#1108 tcrash247

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 01:37 PM

I don't know if I like last night's Nationals trade or not. Getting Cole back is great, but losing Morse...yeah, I dunno. I'm not seeing where the Nationals are going to make up those runs with their projected lineup right now.


Where would you put Morse though? You can't not start LaRoche, Harper, Werth or Span. It sucks losing his production, but they couldn't keep him. It's too bad the Phillies are in the same division, I would have loved to get Morse.

#1109 KingBroly

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 01:49 PM

Who the hell is Span?

Harper can hit. Werth hits seldomly. Zimmerman can hit, but is inconsistent and has been somewhat injury prone the last couple of years. LaRoche can hit but he's old and I doubt he can keep up his production from last year. Desmond was a surprise last year, but I'm skeptical if he can continue that trend this year. Even though Rizzo is getting more pitchers, I'm not seeing where we're going to make up a lot of production.

I like the idea of getting a deeper bullpen because it was dreadfully thin last year because they were relied upon so heavily early on. Not to mention that Nats starters RARELY went more than 6 innings, which definitely caused them to get burnt out later on in the year. But I have to question it when you take one of your best bats out of the lineup.

Then again, he did with Adam Duh and it worked out, so maybe it will here too.
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#1110 GhostShark

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 02:15 PM

http://www.baseball-.../spande01.shtml

I'd argue that he is one of the better centerfielders in the league, and is still 28. Decent WAR last year (and pretty good dWAR). Plus he is a Nard Dog.

I like the Morse trade, seeing as how both teams win. I highly doubt Morse is an everday player in Washington, but he will be in Seattle. I've always liked Morse as a player. I would've liked to see him as a Ranger, but that became impossible once they signed Berkman.
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