Received an empty box...

Here's a tricky one... I just come home to find one of my eBay purchases waiting for me.

The auction was for a lot of 11 guides and it was shipped in a big box. Of course, as you can tell by the title, I received an empty box. There's nothing but crumpled up newspaper inside the box but the postage (from an actual USPS location) says it was ~$9 via media mail. One side of the box was literally cracked open... and then taped back up with a single piece of clear tape.

So at this point, I know the seller did ship the items but they apparently got lost during transit. But who exactly should I blame?

I'd honestly feel bad blaming the seller because it seemed to have been packed fairly well. And the USPS somehow lost all 11 guides...

And another thing that makes me iffy about filing a PayPal dispute is that I recently finished one (filed a dispute, seller resolved it after receiving the dispute) and have one pending (filed a dispute and escalated it, returned item, and now PayPal is making me wait until March 17th for my refund for some reason even though the item was confirmed to be delivered on March 4th via FedEx).

What do you guys think I should do?

So its certain that he didnt do it because of the postage? They wouldnt have charged $9 for an empty box? If its certain he didnt do this then isnt there something you can do through the post office?

The first thing you'd have to do is go to the post office about it I think. Was there insurance?

Also its not unreasonable to message the seller with the situation, they have some responsibility to on their end with the post office.

[quote name='optimusprime8062']So its certain that he didnt do it because of the postage? They wouldnt have charged $9 for an empty box? If its certain he didnt do this then isnt there something you can do through the post office?[/quote]

Not like USPS is going to help him a whole lot anyways if it wasnt insured, which it probably was not, so his hands might be tied.

[quote name='optimusprime8062']So its certain that he didnt do it because of the postage? They wouldnt have charged $9 for an empty box? If its certain he didnt do this then isnt there something you can do through the post office?[/QUOTE]

Depends on how the postage was purchased/applied... When I purchase postage, I specify the weight (whatever I want it to be), and print the label on my printer... When I drop off my packages at the post office, they are usually in totes. So, I could easily print up a $9 postage label and affix it to an empty box, and no one would notice, or care.

However, if the postage was purchased at a USPS location (and not a third party service), then it was most likely weighed by the attendant, in which case I would assume your guides ended up on the floor of a processing facility somewhere along the way. If the package was insured, file a claim with your post office. If not, then you are SOL.

Media mail is usually stamped with subject to inspection. The package could have been opened by the USPS due to inspection and the items were not put back in the box or was not sealed properly. Message the seller and see what happens.

A few more details.

The package was shipped from an actual postal location, it's not a printed label like I make at home. So yeah, the seller definitely shipped the actual items because $9 on media mail is a pretty heavy package.

I contacted the seller right after I made this thread, he hasn't responded yet but I'll wait a bit.

There was no insurance. I've never needed it before... never figured I would.

I did notice one thing: one side of the box was not secured. Now, since this happened at the worst possible time (I've had exams all last week and I've got more exams/papers this week) and plus, I'm only home for 2 days (and I'm working both days)- I honestly don't know what to do.

I guess I'll try to stop by the post office tomorrow... but I know it won't do any good.(

Technically - per Paypal/eBay policies - it arrived "significantly not as described". IT didn't arrive, ask for a refund.

Though it's usually the buyer's "option" to buy insurance, it is the seller's responsibility to get it there safely.


Just stating the facts - if it came down to filing a complaint, you'd win.

Try the PO first since it seems like someone that handled it in transit decided to help themselves. If, after exhausting all options with USPS, you don't get any resolution explain the situation with the seller and see if they're generous enough to split the loss with you and refund half of the money. With $9 postage paid guides were almost definitely packed. If it had been items that didn't qualify for media mail the package would have been returned to sender, not sent on it's way. Normally, I would think a dispute with Paypal would work in your favor; however, since the seller isn't really scamming you it wouldn't be fair to him to expect a full refund. If he has his receipt he can provide proof to PP that the package was sent with at least comparable weight. I don't think this would be a clean cut decision for PP but that's just my opinion. I would try to put the onus on the PO since it's almost assured that one of their employees tampered with the package and removed the contents.

[quote name='pfp']Technically - per Paypal/eBay policies - it arrived "significantly not as described". IT didn't arrive, ask for a refund.

Though it's usually the buyer's "option" to buy insurance, it is the seller's responsibility to get it there safely.


Just stating the facts - if it came down to filing a complaint, you'd win.[/QUOTE]

I have to disagree. That's not what "significantly not as described" covers. Once the buyer legitimately ships the correct, "as-described" items, it's in the seller's hands. That's why insurance is available, for the buyer to decide how seriously they want to make sure it gets to them properly. Now if insurance was included or purchased, then both parties should work together. And even in a situation like this, they should both work together. But from the sound of it, the buyer should not be at fault, and to ask for a refund because the item was "significantly not as described" because USPS lost it, is abusing the system.

It is - believe me, I'm far more of a seller than a buyer. And the rules SUCK for sellers, they weigh heavily towards the buyer.


But, if you read eBay's/Paypal's policies, it IS the seller's responsibility if the buyer doesn't get the item as promised. It's not "abusing the system", the system favors the buyer. It's a load of crap, esp. when you offer, recommend, or STRESS THE NEED FOR insurance and buyer's decline.

I think you got buyer and seller backwards, but you got this sentence dead on:

That's why insurance is available, for the seller to decide how seriously they want to make sure it gets to them properly.

Click to expand...

The seller apparently decided they didn't "seriously" wanted it to get to the buyer properly.



And if you ask USPS, and there's no insurance, they say "sorry, guess you learned your lesson, huh?"

can you post the listing?

[quote name='pfp']

I think you got buyer and seller backwards, but you got this sentence dead on:



The seller apparently decided they didn't "seriously" wanted it to get to the buyer properly.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, my bad, I meant "buyer". Edited.

Also, I would be incredibly shocked if eBay or PayPal sided with the buyer on this one, and I've been a seller for 8 years and have dealt with my share of resolutions on both ends. Could you post links to the policies you're referencing, because I believe you're confusing "lost in shipment" with "misleading description".

[quote name='pfp']Technically - per Paypal/eBay policies - it arrived "significantly not as described". IT didn't arrive, ask for a refund.

Though it's usually the buyer's "option" to buy insurance, it is the seller's responsibility to get it there safely.


Just stating the facts - if it came down to filing a complaint, you'd win.[/quote]


This is correct, and one of the most common misconceptions about how folks do business on Ebay. Insurance should be REQUIRED by all sellers. Instead, sellers choose to make buyers pay for it. However when challenged in a situation like this the seller will lose 90% of the time.

It is the seller's responsibility to see that the item arrives in the buyer's hands.

Think of it this way. If you were dealing with Amazon and the exact same situation occured, would you consider it reasonable to just accept the loss? Of course not. You would demand that Amazon sent the shipment again. Ebay treats this no differently. Sellers are mini-amazons, and are responsible for making sure items arrive safely.

Anything on sell on Ebay worth more than $40 is sent insured. It's just not an option to send it otherwise.

Well, went to the post office and they didn't know what to do... can't blame, since I got an empty box without the contents inside.

They told me to contact the postal inspector and file a report which basically means if they find something fitting the description in their lost and found items, they'll contact me and work something out.

At this point, I'm still not sure about the dispute. The seller definitely sent the items but the box he sent them in obviously wasn't the best option and the fact that he still hasn't responded is making me more suspicious. But I might just have to sallow this $35 loss...

IT WAS THE MILKMAN!!! (damn you Oberweis!)

[quote name='Vinny']At this point, I'm still not sure about the dispute. The seller definitely sent the items but the box he sent them in obviously wasn't the best option and the fact that he still hasn't responded is making me more suspicious. But I might just have to sallow this $35 loss...[/QUOTE]

It's only been two days, you want to wait at least 3-4 - CAGs and the like would like to think that people watch their e-mail constantly, but it's just not the case at all.


If he truly doesn't reply, file a complaint with Paypal - if he doesn't reply to that, you win automatically b/c basically, it's like going to court and the defendent just not showing up - the judge only hears your side, and makes a judgment. May sound a little unfair to open a dispute, w/o communicating first, but you gave him the chance to reply and make it right, he waived it - that's what dispute resolution is for.

Also, I would be incredibly shocked if eBay or PayPal sided with the buyer on this one, and I've been a seller for 8 years and have dealt with my share of resolutions on both ends. Could you post links to the policies you're referencing, because I believe you're confusing "lost in shipment" with "misleading description".

Click to expand...

Ask and ye shall receive, from http://pages.ebay.com/help/pay/shipping-problems.html

If your item was lost or damaged during shipping, please request contact information and call your trading partner to explain the situation and work out a solution.

You should also consider contacting the shipping carrier...

You can also consider opening an Item Not Received or Significantly Not as Described dispute.

Click to expand...

The way most seller's handle it is to offer insurance, state that you're not responsible if the buyer doesn't insure, and if the buyer says "it was damaged" shrug and say "not my fault, I offered insurance, you read the terms in the auction" and hope they don't pursue it further than going back and reading the terms of the auction and thinkgin "damn, I should have bought insurance". A fair number of buyers WILL do just that.

When a buyer disputes for the first time, the seller learns that the disclaimer is worthless and gets one more "jaded eBay seller" point. This is one of hundreds of us reasons that virtually EVERY eBay seller holds some sort or another of grudge against eBay.

[quote name='pfp']It's only been two days, you want to wait at least 3-4 - CAGs and the like would like to think that people watch their e-mail constantly, but it's just not the case at all.


If he truly doesn't reply, file a complaint with Paypal - if he doesn't reply to that, you win automatically b/c basically, it's like going to court and the defendent just not showing up - the judge only hears your side, and makes a judgment.[/QUOTE]

I only said that because all of his other responses were fast, like within hours.

Anyway, he responded yesterday and his response was a little defensive. He said his wife works for the USPS and supposedly, it's USPS policy to not deliver a package unless the items are inside the package...

Anyway, I'll wait and see what the USPS says.

[quote name='Vinny']Anyway, I'll wait and see what the USPS says.[/QUOTE]


Not to sound rude (sarcastic yes, but not rude), but really, good luck with that, tell me how it turns out.

The bottom line with USPS is this -

No insurance, not their problem.

END OF STORY.

[quote name='Vinny']I only said that because all of his other responses were fast, like within hours.

Anyway, he responded yesterday and his response was a little defensive. He said his wife works for the USPS and supposedly, it's USPS policy to not deliver a package unless the items are inside the package...

Anyway, I'll wait and see what the USPS says.[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure what I've bolded is not true. A few years back I ordered CD's from an independent record company. When the package arrived it was clearly cut open and retaped. The CD's were removed but the post office delivered the incredibly light package anyway.

Just because it is lite and a large box does not make it empty. So they should still deliver it. Now if they see on it shipping for something that is 10-15 pounds and it does not weigh that then they should question it.

[quote name='pfp']Not to sound rude (sarcastic yes, but not rude), but really, good luck with that, tell me how it turns out.

The bottom line with USPS is this -

No insurance, not their problem.

END OF STORY.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I know this since I've been using the USPS for almost 8 years now. But they were somewhat helpful because...

[quote name='Josef']I'm pretty sure what I've bolded is not true. A few years back I ordered CD's from an independent record company. When the package arrived it was clearly cut open and retaped. The CD's were removed but the post office delivered the incredibly light package anyway.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='sendme']Just because it is lite and a large box does not make it empty. So they should still deliver it. Now if they see on it shipping for something that is 10-15 pounds and it does not weigh that then they should question it.[/QUOTE]

It appears that both of you are right. I got a call back from my local USPS. The guy who called was the inspector there and he said my carrier told him that the box was ripped open and it felt like it was empty. The inspector said to tape it up and deliver it since he had no way of knowing if there was supposed to be something in there. He said that they both remembered the box and described it as such (the torn area was very strange, hard to forget).

But I guess that's it. The stuff was lost... but now I'm actually thinking about filing a dispute. The other was is obviously being a dick about this and he hasn't really been helping, at all. His packing was obviously very poorly done if the box just rips off like it did and all 11 guides to missing...