Let's argue about Mike Brown!

The police shooting somebody unarmed is not a new thing, and rarely anybody gets prosecuted. I was not surprised by the outcome, and I listened to a great deal of the prosecutor's case for not prosecuting Officer Wilson, including the events that happened. I wondered why the officer didn't get out of his car if he ever did determine if Michael was unarmed, and even holster his weapon. But like so many cases in the past decades, he felt his life was in danger and that fear is endemic with police officers in this country, that if you give them and encourage the use of their weapons in most situations, bad things are going to happen. If the Justice Department has any balls, it would address the issue of excessive force and police militarization in the aftermath of the lack of criminal charges in this indictment. If the news says they're considering the civil ramifications of this event, and many others in the country, as shown in the civilian-made chart of police shooting deaths, maybe there will be justice for Brown and so many other children, mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters in America.

 
A crowd of about three dozen protesters gathered outside the courthouse in Clayton where the grand jury had met, and many stood in stunned silence following the news.

“That’s just how the justice system works. The rich are up there and the poor are down here,” said Antonio Burns, 25, who lives in Clayton. “They think they can get away with it.”
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Being uneducated might be the biggest plague in the United States.

Perhaps those in Missouri should be thankful that this even went to a hearing as in many states cop related shootings are only investigated by a single body (i.e. the Attorney General).

But Obama said one thing correctly last night... the rioting would make for great TV. Got to love the pictures of the makeshift memorial at the site of the shooting... completely vacant.

 
Fearia said:
Your proficiency in self defense case law is showing. If shots are justified, that means lethal force is justified. It means the same thing.
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Sorry to say but he's exactly right. There's no such thing as warning shots in use of force. That's something that's only in the movies because real officers are trained to only discharge their weapon when they intend to kill a person.

In fact, for everyone, even for average citizens, it's always considered an intent to kill if they shoot a gun in the direction of any other person. The law doesn't recognize an intent to wound someone with a gun. You aim and fire at someone, you're intending to kill him, regardless of where you were aiming on the person.

Now, as far as the rest goes, I'm still not sure why officer Wilson didn't initially attempt to use his taser considering be was being assaulted by an unarmed person but it's clear that the grand jury that Officer Wilson believed Mike Brown meant to kill him during the altercation. It's unfortunate that we'll never know for certain what truly happened but based on what we do know I'm not convinced the shooting wasn't completely unjustified.

I can understand and appreciate the racial tensions in this particular community but the real fact is that this kid had just gotten done committing robbery over some minor products from a gas station. He pretty clearly violently shoved the store owner which brought it up from a simple theft to a robbery at that point. Armed or not, at that point he was, in most jurisdictions, a suspect in a violent felony. It's a fact which I wish was acknowledged more often in this whole situation because Officer Wilson's knowledge of that incident demonstrates there was at least a reason for the stop in the first place. This wasn't an innocent person chosen at random off the street to be executed.

Is it entirely possible (likely even probable) that his race and perhaps even age did come into play in the way the officer chose to engage him? I'm willing to bet so but I'm starting to believe the seemingly false eyewitness testimony of Mike Brown essentially being summarily executed is what has tainted the view of this case from day 1.

The more compelling story of the situation is whether Mike Brown was attempting to surrender at any point in the incident. If he was shot even after attempting to surrender, well then that's an entirely different scenario. Unfortunately, there seems to be little evidence to establish in either direction.
 
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Finger_Shocker said:
Cause cops never lie ;)

And yet prosecutors have brought charges and won cases on far fewer evidence even made up ones...

Wonder why cops get the benefit of the doubt


And for someone who has never had a run in with the law, the first time he seem very bent on being a tough guy....LOL
If you believe half the crap Wilson said Brown said to him, you probably a gullible fool. But atlas dead men don't talk and Wilson can smear Brown as much as he possibly could
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Cops are given great deference by the courts. It goes both ways though. On the one hand it leads to questionable shootings like this (and many others) but the alternative is a police force that is too scared to act for fear of the repercussions. That's just the culture we have to live in, we're not japan where the police don't even have to carry guns because there's so little violence. We live in the country where there's handguns possibly hiding in every corner and people more than willing to use them, even against the police.
 



RedvsBlue said:
Now, as far as the rest goes, I'm still not sure why officer Wilson didn't initially attempt to use his taser considering be was being assaulted by an unarmed person but it's clear that the grand jury that Officer Wilson believed Mike Brown meant to kill him during the altercation. It's unfortunate that we'll never know for certain what truly happened but based on what we do know I'm not convinced the shooting wasn't completely unjustified.
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Wilson did not have a taser on him. In addition, while being attacked he was blocking the blows with one arm / hand (the side closest to Brown). This did not allow him to access his baton or pepper spray (per his testimony). In addition, he was fearful of being blinded by the pepper spray in the enclosed space.
 
Fearia said:
Wilson did not have a taser on him. In addition, while being attacked he was blocking the blows with one arm / hand (the side closest to Brown). This did not allow him to access his baton or pepper spray (per his testimony). In addition, he was fearful of being blinded by the pepper spray in the enclosed space.
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It is almost like he could fire a warning shot, roll up his window and call for backup. Or follow him in his 2 ton car if he was already fearing for his life. Nah lets just shoot him, I'm following the law :drool: !

 
irideabike said:
It is almost like he could fire a warning shot, roll up his window and call for backup. Or follow him in his 2 ton car if he was already fearing for his life. Nah lets just shoot him, I'm following the law :drool: !
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Do you honestly believe "warning shots" would've stopped Brown, despite the fact that he continued to advance on Wilson *after* being actually shot (per eyewitness testimony that corroborated Wilson's testimony)? Let's not forget the fact that warning shots are dangerous to the public at large, since they have to go somewhere, and are considered by and large to be reckless.

Then there's the part where the "fearing for his life" aspect didn't come into play until Brown actually physically attacked him and went after his gun. And the fact that prior to being attacked, Wilson had already called for backup.

Maybe you should join Finger_Shocker in reading the actual testimony? It might make things a bit easier, seeing as you're arguing points that make zero sense considering the testimony corroborated by forensic evidence and eyewitness statements given.

 
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Why did he leave the car instead of waiting for backup.  Two shots were fired in the car.  Those shots constitute as warning shots imo.

Think outside the box.

 
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irideabike said:
Why did he leave the car instead of waiting for backup. Two shots were fired in the car. Those shots constitute as warning shots imo.

Think outside the box.
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By the time "backup" arrived, Brown would have been long gone. It's not like Wilson got out his car and just gunned him down (ie. no shots in the back). There were words exchanged. Wilson tried to get him to give up. Brown wouldn't. Things happened.

Can anybody tell me why Brown has no responsibility in this? HE robbed a store. HE attacked a police officer. HE wouldn't comply. By all accounts, he was acting without fear...even in the face of a gun. Whatever reasoning was going through his head is what got him killed. If he had been smarter, most of this wouldn't have happened.

 
n8rockerasu said:
By the time "backup" arrived, Brown would have been long gone. It's not like Wilson got out his car and just gunned him down (ie. no shots in the back). There were words exchanged. Wilson tried to get him to give up. Brown wouldn't. Things happened.

Can anybody tell me why Brown has no responsibility in this? HE robbed a store. HE attacked a police officer. HE wouldn't comply. By all accounts, he was acting without fear...even in the face of a gun. Whatever reasoning was going through his head is what got him killed. If he had been smarter, most of this wouldn't have happened.
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He does have responsibility. He never should have stolen the two cigars or w/e it ended up being. He never should have allowed himself to get in an altercation with the officer. Those were all mistakes he made. I don't think any of them should have resulted in him losing his life. No one is beyond redemption and rehabilitation.

 
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irideabike said:
He does have responsibility. He never should have stolen the two cigars or w/e it ended up being. He never should have allowed himself to get in an altercation with the officer. Those were all mistakes he made. I don't think any of them should have resulted in him losing his life. No one is beyond redemption and rehabilitation.
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I agree with that 100%. But sometimes people make choices that are irreversible. If he actively chose to go after a police officer's gun, then he's showing intent to kill that officer. It escalated way beyond stealing some cigars at that point. It should have never gone that far.

Honestly, and this seems dumb to bring up...but the initial reason for stopping Brown and his friend was because they were walking in the road. If you've just stolen something and you don't want to get caught...why in the hell would you do anything to draw extra attention to yourself?

If he had been walking on the sidewalk, Wilson probably would have drove right past without even thinking about it. But instead, when asked, he tells the cop "fuck you!"? Even professional criminals will smile and play nice with the police when they've just committed a crime.

That doesn't justify him getting killed. But it seems like he just made all the wrong decisions that day. Like I've said, it freaks me out a little because his actions almost look like "suicide by cop" behavior. He did so many things to prompt a confrontation and then refused to back down in the face of a gun. It's so incredulous, I think that's part of the reason people have come up with so many theories on what happened. It's a pretty huge leap from stealing cigars to cop killer. And that's the path he somehow found himself on.

 
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This has certainly been some interesting reading in this thread, especially since I live in the area (not in Ferguson) and most everyone in this thread doesn't live around here.

I can only wonder the "fun" that will happen throughout the day and into the evening. 

 
irideabike said:
He does have responsibility. He never should have stolen the two cigars or w/e it ended up being. He never should have allowed himself to get in an altercation with the officer. Those were all mistakes he made. I don't think any of them should have resulted in him losing his life. No one is beyond redemption and rehabilitation.
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That's not why he's dead. He went after Wilson's gun and later charged him. If that's what you meant by altercations then yes that was the choice that got him killed.

Those protesting and saying Wilson was wrong don't want to face the fact that this idiot Brown charged Wilson after trying to take his gun. The police are trained to stop a threat and continue till that threat is no more. Wilson did just that. Would we have seen all this happen if Dorian Johnson told the truth from the start, Wilson was black, Brown was white, Brown white and Wilson black or if Wilson was a 100-115 pound female officer?


shrike4242 said:
This has certainly been some interesting reading in this thread, especially since I live in the area (not in Ferguson) and most everyone in this thread doesn't live around here.

I can only wonder the "fun" that will happen throughout the day and into the evening.
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I'm not on the Missouri side, but I'm not far from St. Louis. I'm on the Illinois side in Granite City.







 
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shrike4242 said:
This has certainly been some interesting reading in this thread, especially since I live in the area (not in Ferguson) and most everyone in this thread doesn't live around here.

I can only wonder the "fun" that will happen throughout the day and into the evening.
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You must be referring to the cops because they love dressing up in milsurp and shooting tear gas into cars and residential property. In other words, there'll be tons of fun to be had. It's like airsoft, only with real hardware!

sendme said:
That's not why he's dead. He went after Wilson's gun and later charged him. If that's what you meant by altercations then yes that was the choice that got him killed.
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We don't really have definitive proof of any of that.

Those protesting and saying Wilson was wrong don't want to face the fact that this idiot Brown charged Wilson after trying to take his gun. The police are trained to stop a threat and continue till that threat is no more. Wilson did just that. Would we have seen all this happen if Dorian Johnson told the truth from the start, Wilson was black, Brown was white, Brown white and Wilson black or if Wilson was a 100-115 pound female officer?
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Like I've said countless times in this thread: it's less about this case than it is about a long history of FPD targeting the black residents of the area as well as questionable use of force. Shit, the prosecutor on tv last night was in charge of organizing a fundraising campaign for Wilson. The fucking PROSECUTOR.

This is just the straw that broke the camels back.
 
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Finger_Shocker said:
The only one saying Brown tried to take Wilson gun is WILSON....lol
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The blood on the door supports this. It's on the drivers side and on the inside of the door. If not then Brown would have had to be in between Wilson and his SUV.

n8rockerasu said:
By the time "backup" arrived, Brown would have been long gone. It's not like Wilson got out his car and just gunned him down (ie. no shots in the back). There were words exchanged. Wilson tried to get him to give up. Brown wouldn't. Things happened.

Can anybody tell me why Brown has no responsibility in this? HE robbed a store. HE attacked a police officer. HE wouldn't comply. By all accounts, he was acting without fear...even in the face of a gun. Whatever reasoning was going through his head is what got him killed. If he had been smarter, most of this wouldn't have happened.
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Mind = Blown. Glad someone else is thinking this. It seems like people are in denial about all this happening.

 
dohdough said:
You must be referring to the cops because they love dressing up in milsurp and shooting tear gas into cars and residential property. In other words, there'll be tons of fun to be had. It's like airsoft, only with real hardware!
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I was more thinking the "fun" was trying to figure out what other buildings get burned down this evening, vandalized or others displays of "nonviolent protesting".

I'm sure the cops love dressing up in MilSurp and firing off tear gas, smoke grenades and other ordinance like that. Probably ranks in the top of their things to do for the day.

 
dohdough said:
You must be referring to the cops because they love dressing up in milsurp and shooting tear gas into cars and residential property. In other words, there'll be tons of fun to be had. It's like airsoft, only with real hardware!


We don't really have definitive proof of any of that.


Like I've said countless times in this thread: it's less about this case than it is about a long history of FPD targeting the black residents of the area as well as questionable use of force. Shit, the prosecutor on tv last night was in charge of organizing a fundraising campaign for Wilson. The fucking PROSECUTOR.
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Definitive proof? What do you need? The door has blood on it from the inside. Supporting what Wilson has said about being attacked and shooting when Brown tried to go for his gun. The x-ray of Wilson's eye shows he was hit. Also the autopsy shows Brown's hands up blocking his face and in what looks to have been a charging position when it comes to the entries of the bullet wounds.

As for the police targeting blacks isn't most of Ferguson black? If it is then most arrests will be black.

 
sendme said:
The blood on the door supports this. It's on the drivers side and on the inside of the door. If not then Brown would have had to be in between Wilson and his SUV.


Mind = Blown. Glad someone else is thinking this. It seems like people are in denial about all this happening.
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It only proves Brown was shot in Wilson car, it does not prove anywhere that Brown attempted to take Wilson gun. Wilson could of easily shot at Brown when Brown was by his car, prove to anyone that Brown tried to take Wilson gun.... you can unless you accept Wilson account
 
Finger_Shocker said:
Yes and much of the evidence seem to be HERESY, by Wilson

I mean it sounded like Wilson tried to give enough reason as to why he had to shoot, I wonder why.... Unless we have audio recordings of Brown encounter with Wilson, Wilson story is full of possible B.S about the "shit" Brown said to him

Hearing Wilson account sounds like he had to come up with the most unbelievable story to justify his action
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Yeah, this whole story stinks (and of course he had to throw in the old standby "he was reaching into his pants"): http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7281165/darren-wilsons-story-side

 
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shrike4242 said:
I was more thinking the "fun" was trying to figure out what other buildings get burned down this evening, vandalized or others displays of "nonviolent protesting".

I'm sure the cops love dressing up in MilSurp and firing off tear gas, smoke grenades and other ordinance like that. Probably ranks in the top of their things to do for the day.
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Rioters and looters were a small minority of the protestors. It's also not beyond reason to assume that there were also agent provocateurs in the crowds as well.

Instead of "protecting property" and "keeping people safe," all the cops did was kettle them and then violate some civil rights.


sendme said:
Definitive proof? What do you need? The door has blood on it from the inside. Supporting what Wilson has said about being attacked and shooting when Brown tried to go for his gun. The x-ray of Wilson's eye shows he was hit. Also the autopsy shows Brown's hands up blocking his face and in what looks to have been a charging position when it comes to the entries of the bullet wounds.
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The medical examiner has been on the media circuit talking about how she was grossly misquoted and how the evidence doesn't put one possibility over the other. Wilson is less than consistent between his initial report and what was given to the grand jury. I mean, have you seen the photos?

As for the police targeting blacks isn't most of Ferguson black? If it is then most arrests will be black.
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You sure you don't want to think about that statement a little bit?
 
Finger_Shocker said:
It only proves Brown was shot in Wilson car, it does not prove anywhere that Brown attempted to take Wilson gun. Wilson could of easily shot at Brown when Brown was by his car, prove to anyone that Brown tried to take Wilson gun.... you can unless you accept Wilson account
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http://fox2now.com/2014/11/24/prosecutor-robert-mcculloch-releases-grand-jury-evidence-in-michael-brown-case/

All goes with Wilson's version of what happened. Keep in mind the only other witness came out after making a deal to not go to jail saying that he lied about what happened. His lawyer had to stop and reword what he said live on CNN after all this happened.

 
dohdough said:
Rioters and looters were a small minority of the protestors. It's also not beyond reason to assume that there were also agent provocateurs in the crowds as well.

Instead of "protecting property" and "keeping people safe," all the cops did was kettle them and then violate some civil rights.




The medical examiner has been on the media circuit talking about how she was grossly misquoted and how the evidence doesn't put one possibility over the other. Wilson is less than consistent between his initial report and what was given to the grand jury. I mean, have you seen the photos?


You sure you don't want to think about that statement a little bit?
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Nothing to think about. If you have an area that is majority of one race what race do you think will be committing crimes? A town of all white people should have higher number of white people arrested, town with majority blacks would have more blacks, Asians would have more Asians, so on and so on for all races. If the majority living in Ferguson are black then I'm not surprised. If majority are white then yes I'd be surprised if majority arrested were black. With all that said I'm talking about at least a 70-30 percent of the population.

 
Again no actual prove that Brown attempted to take Wilson gun, all you people harping about how Brown was shot because he tried to take Wilson gun have no proof except for believe the story of someone with alot to lose..

Don't dare accuse people of siding with Brown biased when you accept the shooters account with no prove as to the truthfulness of the shooters account. Lol at reaching for someone gun inside a car in a siting position with the gun on the right side while the person is on the left. Its virtually impossible unless you believe a 300lb guy can fit into a window opening
 
[quote name="Finger_Shocker" post="12269357" timestamp="1416954892"]Again no actual prove that Brown attempted to take Wilson gun, all you people harping about how Brown was shot because he tried to take Wilson gun have no proof except for believe the story of someone with alot to lose..

Don't dare accuse people of siding with Brown biased when you accept the shooters account with no prove as to the truthfulness of the shooters account. Lol at reaching for someone gun inside a car in a siting position with the gun on the right side while the person is on the left. Its virtually impossible unless you believe a 300lb guy can fit into a window opening[/quote]
Except for the close contact gunshot wound to the hand... explain that away. And before you say "he was just attempting to block being shot!", who the fuck attacks a police officer (again, multiple eyewitnesses) and then just stops by putting their hands out towards an officers gun unless they have other intent?
 
Finger_Shocker said:
Again no actual prove that Brown attempted to take Wilson gun, all you people harping about how Brown was shot because he tried to take Wilson gun have no proof except for believe the story of someone with alot to lose..

Don't dare accuse people of siding with Brown biased when you accept the shooters account with no prove as to the truthfulness of the shooters account. Lol at reaching for someone gun inside a car in a siting position with the gun on the right side while the person is on the left. Its virtually impossible unless you believe a 300lb guy can fit into a window opening
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It's seriously ridiculous how confidently you can assert that. Please, tell me this...what proof is there that Brown DIDN'T go for Wilson's gun?

 
n8rockerasu said:
It's seriously ridiculous how confidently you can assert that. Please, tell me this...what proof is there that Brown DIDN'T go for Wilson's gun?
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It's seriously ridiculous how you can confidently assert that Wilson is telling the truth, what proof did Brown actually went for Wilson's gun besides Wilson's "story" ... oh none... Wilson didn't need to prove that statement, all he had to do was say it.

Just cause you believe in your head something, doesn't make it fact. Wilson could have lied to himself or was so delusional to believe that as fact that he acted on it. Does it make it lawfully absolutely not. You can act on facts not what you so so so believed.

Since no one questioned his "story" or the reality, he got away with manslaughter or reckless disregard for life

Brown was subsequently executed ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY feet away. Unless Brown arms are 100 feet long, he was in no way a threat anymore. Wilson let his temper and emotion override all sense of proper judgment and thus he killed the person.

The actual reason Wilson decided to stop Brown was because he got "mouthed" off to... Hence Wilson was "dissed" ....

You have no right to attack someone who "dissed" or disrespect you... However because Wilson was a cop and had a gun he can totally "disrespect" back.... Apparently a individual right is far lower then the right of the gov't .... That is sick

 
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After the gov't commits a act of violence can they justly tell people to suck it in and be peaceful in return?

Prosecutors have convicted and imprisoned people based on snitches and with circumstantial evidence and questionable witnesses accounts, yet to even bring a charge or recommend a trial for a cop who shoots a unarmed individual, they need ABSOLUTE UNREASONABLE BEYOND a doubt ....

How many innocent people including Elderly individuals have police killed and never ever been held accountable criminally for..  They play the farking self defense card even against a elderly person

 
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So, are you out protesting?

What city are you in, can you provide some on-the-ground video footage and tell us what you're seeing?
 
Well no one is going to riot......

Who knew the right to assemble doesn't mean the police can't threaten to arrest you, or make up a reason to arrest you...lol

Why do gov't continue to tell people to act lawful when they can't even respect the constitutional rights of people to assemble, I don't think there was ever any restriction placed on that right, namely the power for the gov't to cage you in a certain area or to be told there is a curfew when protesting has to stop.....LOL  !!!!

Can't really not see why people shouldn't be pissed at what's going on...

 
So, the right to assemble is equated to rioting now? Holy fuck.

NYPD cleared the way for peaceful assembly last night. Ferguson PD was ready to allow peaceful assembly, but instead got riots. They acted accordingly.
 
Fearia said:
So, the right to assemble is equated to rioting now? Holy fuck. NYPD cleared the way for peaceful assembly last night. Ferguson PD was ready to allow peaceful assembly, but instead got riots. They acted accordingly.
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Oh wait you are lumping everyone together, you know holy fark, you're not at all biased...

Also can people really assemble peacefully and yet be barricaded into corners ???

 
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Fearia said:
So, the right to assemble is equated to rioting now? Holy fuck. NYPD cleared the way for peaceful assembly last night. Ferguson PD was ready to allow peaceful assembly, but instead got riots. They acted accordingly.
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If only there were live streams in Ferguson to confirm what you're saying...

Oh right! There were live streams at ground zero along with a bunch of cable networks taping a good chunk of the cops pumping tear gas(which FPD lied about being smoke bombs) into crowds of protesters while allowing the agitators to burn shit down and loot.

I get it, man. When it comes to bad cops, they're just some bad apples and the entire force shouldn't be judged by it, but when it comes to protestors, it's ok to just paint them with the same brush anc call it rioting because
 
sendme said:
http://fox2now.com/2014/11/24/prosecutor-robert-mcculloch-releases-grand-jury-evidence-in-michael-brown-case/

All goes with Wilson's version of what happened. Keep in mind the only other witness came out after making a deal to not go to jail saying that he lied about what happened. His lawyer had to stop and reword what he said live on CNN after all this happened.
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here is an exclusive interview with officer darren wilson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llwdma6zVhA&list=UUBi2mrWuNuyYy4gbM6fU18Q

 
I saw a black demon !!!!! Swear on my white grandmother grave... A black demon I tell you...

The last person who admitted she saw a demon in her child and she tried to cleanse him, shes currently sitting in PRISON and psyche ward

Meanwhile a officer who claim he saw a black demon was given a award, held a fundraiser for, gotten married and will retire with full taxpayer benefits...

I tell you life is great, and no such a thing really do exist, I'm not making it up, it was a true story
 
If I were Wilson, I wouldn't even have given that interview. The media is just feeding off this shit at this point and people are going to dissect and ridicule anything he says. There's nothing he could say to make people feel better.

At the end of the day, the case is what it is.

1. IF Brown attacked Wilson and tried to grab his gun, then he deserved to die. I would say the same thing if the freaking Pope punched an officer and tried to take his gun.

2. There's more evidence to support Wilson's testimony (blood in car, autopsy report, etc) than there is evidence to dispute it.

3. Right or wrong, a person with a history of negative behavior is going to have less credibility than a person with no history of negative behavior.

It's like in school, if two kids got into a fight, and one kid is constantly in trouble and the other kid is an honor roll student and has never been in trouble. Who do you think is going to be suspected of starting that fight?

It absolutely leaves the possibility that the honor roll kid could just be taking advantage of an opportunity to really stick it to the other kid. But 99.9% of the time, that's not the case. And the best way to avoid being that 0.1%? Don't develop a bad reputation. Even if there's no evidence at all, why should you get the benefit of the doubt if you have a history of getting into trouble?

 
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