Not sure if you have been paying attention- maybe a trial would have cleared some of this up.
Let's argue about Mike Brown!
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n8rockerasu
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Maybe you haven't been paying attention. They barely had enough to even justify taking it to the Grand Jury. What evidence are you going to present at trial?
n8rockerasu
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I don't have to say it. It's been stated by numerous people all over the internet that most of the time, it wouldn't have even gone to a grand jury.
Switching gears, here's an interesting story:
http://www.cnet.com/news/two-phone-standoff-after-cop-stops-man-for-walking-with-hands-in-pockets/#ftag=YHF65cbda0
A police officer in Pontiac, Michigan was called to investigate a black male walking "with his hands in his pockets". This doesn't relate so much to the Michael Brown case, but maybe more to the Tamir Rice case. In a way, I feel like we're allowing people to cry wolf and then demonizing the police for following up on it (the Rice case is more severe, obviously...but those officers were basically misled about Rice's age and were not told that the gun might be a toy).
It starts to create a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario though. If police don't respond and something happens, you get a "they don't care about us" story. Watching the video of this interaction though...how do people feel about it? To me, I credit both of them for keeping their cool when basically some asshole just wasted both of their time.
Should we hold people responsible for these crazy claims and the media responsible for their "first to report" inaccuracies? It just seems like people fly off the handle way too quickly and things just spiral out of control before anybody can figure out what the hell is going on.
THE INTERNET SAID SO?
Well butter my buns and call me a biscuit, how dare anyone inconvenience Wilson over shooting an unarmed person?
usickenme
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OMG...one event where no one was injured shot or killed just filmed.. Oh the HORROR. Damn you internet for creating "demand" for police accountability. Hey, I've had a cop with a chip on his shoulder waste peoples times more than once. (I'll agree there is potential to affect police response but I think that always exists and not always with something valid)
perdition(troy
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he is 12 years old is it that shocking that he is a dumbass you inbred fück. they gave him what, 3 seconds to put a plastic gun down then shot him? then waited 5 minutes to start CPR on a child? go sit on a rusty pipe.
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So angry!
I guess you know all the facts, and understand how medical aid is rendered for gunshot wounds. Man . . . CPR for a gunshot wound. Should I rub someone's shoulders if they get stabbed next? Hint: TCCC standards says no. I'm guessing you're not trained on those though.
Mind you, I'm not a medical professional . . . but I have been trained to keep people alive from trauma.
From my understanding, the only video released is 0.5 FPS. As in, it takes a frame every other second. Details on a fast moving situation is hard to decipher from it. I do see faults there, but at the same time, I see a kid reaching for a gun. You know why? Because that's what it
ing looks like. Trying to tell if it's real or not from a distance, without being hands on with it, is nearly impossible.Personally, if my partner rolled up on a potential "man with gun" call like that . . . well, they'd get chewed the
out.But hey, that's just my initial observations. What do I know? I'm just an inbred hick probably. I'll go sit on a rusty pipe now.
I love the fact that no one wants to recognize Officer David Smith and how he died though. Instead, let's discuss Michael Brown some more and remember the felon that attacked an officer.
Sigh.
Finger_Shocker
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Well it seem James Clark was WHITE and we all know that white males get treated differently than when police approaches a minority
Again tell me how can you steal a gun from someone sitting on the left while the gun is holster to your right blocked off by a car door... Oh that's right Wilson decided to pull his gun out and point it at someone who was unarmed which he KNEW and then proceed to use deadly force without using proper rational.
Again tell me how can you steal a gun from someone sitting on the left while the gun is holster to your right blocked off by a car door... Oh that's right Wilson decided to pull his gun out and point it at someone who was unarmed which he KNEW and then proceed to use deadly force without using proper rational.
I think sometimes people are so miserable with their lives they just need something to yell and shout (and ^ ramble) about.
I mean let's be objective. If you took the number of white police officers who have shot/killed unarmed black males as a percentage of the entire U.S. population and compared it to the number of black men who have shot/killed unarmed black men which do you think would be more of an issue?
It's like people being more afraid of going to the beach and being bitten by a shark then they are of drowning when the odds of drowning are exponentially greater.
No one is saying police are perfect, or impartial or that brutality or profiling is okay. But I think sometimes certain segments of the U.S. population like to point the blame outwards rather then take accountability for a much greater problem.
I mean let's be objective. If you took the number of white police officers who have shot/killed unarmed black males as a percentage of the entire U.S. population and compared it to the number of black men who have shot/killed unarmed black men which do you think would be more of an issue?
It's like people being more afraid of going to the beach and being bitten by a shark then they are of drowning when the odds of drowning are exponentially greater.
No one is saying police are perfect, or impartial or that brutality or profiling is okay. But I think sometimes certain segments of the U.S. population like to point the blame outwards rather then take accountability for a much greater problem.
perdition(troy
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misspoke on cpr, meant first aid.
[quote name="Finger_Shocker" post="12292681" timestamp="1417523984"]Well it seem James Clark was WHITE and we all know that white males get treated differently than when police approaches a minority
Again tell me how can you steal a gun from someone sitting on the left while the gun is holster to your right blocked off by a car door... Oh that's right Wilson decided to pull his gun out and point it at someone who was unarmed which he KNEW and then proceed to use deadly force without using proper rational. [/quote]
Someone hasn't been reading or is just wilfully ignorant. Again, Officer David Smith. Look him up.
Again tell me how can you steal a gun from someone sitting on the left while the gun is holster to your right blocked off by a car door... Oh that's right Wilson decided to pull his gun out and point it at someone who was unarmed which he KNEW and then proceed to use deadly force without using proper rational. [/quote]
Someone hasn't been reading or is just wilfully ignorant. Again, Officer David Smith. Look him up.
n8rockerasu
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I'm just picturing someone offering a nice shoulder rub to a stab victim now. All I can think about, lol.
"So, I know you've got these lacerations...but you just look real tense."
:lol:
"So, I know you've got these lacerations...but you just look real tense."
:lol:
Relevant:
http://youtu.be/hjpl2nvuGSg?t=3m25s
"Griff, why in Hell would you give someone CPR for a bullet wound in the head?! That doesn't make a lick of sense! I mean, it's so damn inconsistent! What would you do if they stabbed me in the toe?! Rub my neck with aloe vera?! Hey there, Griff! I think I feel an aneurysm coming on! Could you help me out with one of them therapeutic mass-ages? Use your fingers, not your knuckles . . . right there, that's good. Lower back . . . yeah, I can feel that working already. Don't be afraid to go too low. Oh yeah! Shiatsu!"
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n8rockerasu
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I bet this guy needed one hell of a massage.
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If the cops were so 100% in the right here. Why did they lie about what happened per the video?
Purple Flames
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The old VS creed: it's always the black guy's fault he's dead.
Purple Flames
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I already know who's not gonna read this and who's gonna skim it and then brush it off, but still it's worth a read: http://aattp.org/tim-wise-pens-brilliant-editorial-on-ferguson-most-white-americans-are-completely-oblivious/
usickenme
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Deflect much? Seriously, the right wing playbook is so predictable and trite. Of COURSE this is an issue of black on black crime. But the issues are the root cause of it are also the issues that are the root cause that allows white cops get away with shooting unarmed black kids. It's the same problem. But it guess it is just easier to turn a blind and "blame dem ornery blacks" for being so violent. Or that they are unwilling to take accountability. Jesus
ing Christ. Do you even reallze how racist you are??So yeah, let's be "objective". You're not.
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[quote name="usickenme" post="12294950" timestamp="1417575728"]Deflect much? Seriously, the right wing playbook is so predictable and trite. Of COURSE this is an issue of black on black crime. But the issues are the root cause of it are also the issues that are the root cause that allows white cops get away with shooting unarmed black kids. It's the same problem. But it guess it is just easier to turn a blind and "blame dem ornery blacks" for being so violent. Or that they are unwilling to take accountability. Jesus ing Christ. Do you even reallze how racist you are??
So yeah, let's be "objective". You're not. [/quote]
Deflect much? Accuse everyone who says "justified" of racism, but only bring up white on black situations. Guess what? Justified self defense goes across all races. But instead of bringing up valid cases of all kinds, you deflect and blame racism because of the cases brought up.
I had a cousin in law die at the hands of officers due to his actions. Maybe I'm calloused, but it was a justified shoot still based off the evidence I've heard. I didn't cry out against the officers because he sealed his own fate by his actions.
But hey, racism! Deflect responsibility!
ing Christ. Do you even reallze how racist you are??So yeah, let's be "objective". You're not. [/quote]
Deflect much? Accuse everyone who says "justified" of racism, but only bring up white on black situations. Guess what? Justified self defense goes across all races. But instead of bringing up valid cases of all kinds, you deflect and blame racism because of the cases brought up.
I had a cousin in law die at the hands of officers due to his actions. Maybe I'm calloused, but it was a justified shoot still based off the evidence I've heard. I didn't cry out against the officers because he sealed his own fate by his actions.
But hey, racism! Deflect responsibility!
I think what people worry about, being Black and what underscores Brown, is that if they get pulled over, stopped, etc. they end up at times effectively being harassed by police.
Meanwhile, this doesn't happen so much if you're White, Asian, etc. The threshhold for police action is more reflex against the Black person inside of moderated and evaluated when you're White. I mean I almost think you could have some kind of hacking cough when you get pulled over and some cops would pull out a gun because you're making a sharp action.
I'm not saying all cops do this though. Additionally, I think some people become cops because of the authority complex that goes with it. Some of those, by conscious or unconscious thought, lord it over Black people because of stereotypes that still linger. FOX News and others don't help, hinting they might be justified in their egregious conduct.
This idea encourages cops who bully Black people consciously, saying it's ok.
What disturbs me most is some cops conduct resembles that of how White people use to call Black men "boy" in the past, before the Civil Rights era.
Meanwhile, this doesn't happen so much if you're White, Asian, etc. The threshhold for police action is more reflex against the Black person inside of moderated and evaluated when you're White. I mean I almost think you could have some kind of hacking cough when you get pulled over and some cops would pull out a gun because you're making a sharp action.
I'm not saying all cops do this though. Additionally, I think some people become cops because of the authority complex that goes with it. Some of those, by conscious or unconscious thought, lord it over Black people because of stereotypes that still linger. FOX News and others don't help, hinting they might be justified in their egregious conduct.
This idea encourages cops who bully Black people consciously, saying it's ok.
What disturbs me most is some cops conduct resembles that of how White people use to call Black men "boy" in the past, before the Civil Rights era.
Absolutely nailed it. I can particularly see in this incident the bullying mentality of Wilson. I absolutely do not believe the initial interaction began with Wilson politely asking Brown to walk on the sidewalk, I don't doubt that he used profanity in doing so.
My personal belief is that the whole interaction itself began because of Wilson's racist attitudes. His attitude toward Brown likely angered Brown setting him off to somehow engage Wilson. I don't, on the other hand, believe that Wilson shot him merely because he was black.
I just don't buy the story that he had his hands up and was surrendering when Wilson executed him. I think there is a possibility Wilson genuinely feared for his life during their engagement. Essentially what I'm saying is that Wilson is likely enough of a racist that he would treat random black people in a different manner but not enough of a skinhead racist that he would go about randomly trying to execute blacks.
I think a lot of people are approaching this thing from the entirely wrong angle, which is to say that many believe racism is one way or another, you're either fully racist or fully non-racist. That's simply not the case, there's nuances to people's individual racist attitudes. As long as people keep thinking the only way to be racist is by standing in someone's yard burning a cross wearing a white pointy hat then we're going to be permanently stuck with the mentality that racism is dead while it's actually still bubbling under the surface in much more inconspicuous ways.
If they couldn't piece together enough for a grand jury indictment, a criminal trial would have been a complete waste of time for a couple of reasons. The first reason is that the threshold is much lower for a criminal indictment than a conviction, probable cause vs. beyond a reasonable doubt. If not a single grand jury member could get to probable cause, you're not getting a criminal jury to beyond a reasonable doubt.
Secondly, and perhaps the most important part, is that grand juries are exposed to far more evidence than a criminal jury is exposed. The reason for this is that the rules of evidence are very lax in a grand jury proceeding. Things such as hearsay evidence, relevancy standards, and other evidence which would be excluded for unfair prejudice is usually permissible in presenting to a grand jury.
Essentially a grand jury has the lowest threshold with the highest volume of evidence so if they can't find enough to indict, there's almost no possible way a criminal jury would be able to convict.
n8rockerasu
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Even if that were true, that makes it almost identical to the Zimmerman case doesn't it (though really, even dumber in Brown's situation). If somebody says something racist to you or is following you...you still don't get to physically attack them.
I learned this when I was 5 years old. If somebody calls you a name, you don't hit them. EVEN if Wilson had said "Hey, n*****. Get on the sidewalk." the shooting could still be justified because you don't get to physically attack someone because they said words to you. It's that simple. If you don't care about the law, then sure...do whatever you want. But don't be shocked when the law blows up in your face.
Imagine if Martin Luther King Jr. had just gone up and punched a cop when they said something horrible to him. We'd be in a much different world today. One of my biggest irritants in life is seeing somebody do something stupid because somebody else did something stupid. You are reducing yourself to their level and showing an inability to outthink that person. It makes you a joke.
n8rockerasu
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@Fearia, yeah...I can't put too much faith in those numbers given the source. They could be entirely made up. And at the very least, they're painted to make you believe a particular thing.
The first statistic leads you to believe that total numbers aren't important because it's the percentage of the population that really makes the difference. The second statistic then goes back and references total numbers. It very much feels like baiting his viewership with a "look how bad black people are!" chart.
It's the same point that was made about crime in Ferguson. If one race makes up a majority of the population, more events SHOULD involve them. That's just math. If there's a room with 60 black people and 10 white people, and 18 black people get the flu, but only 3 white people get the flu...is the flu racist? No. It's still 30% of each population that are affected.
Now, that doesn't address the total numbers in the first statistic, but that starts to go down its own path, involving things like poverty, education, etc. I know there are a lot of Americans with an attitude of "well, just do better", but I will never understand how anybody with political power expects to have a better country without putting more resources into education and after school programs. For me, it starts to get into some of George Carlin's ideas of they want you to be smart, but not "too smart".
The first statistic leads you to believe that total numbers aren't important because it's the percentage of the population that really makes the difference. The second statistic then goes back and references total numbers. It very much feels like baiting his viewership with a "look how bad black people are!" chart.
It's the same point that was made about crime in Ferguson. If one race makes up a majority of the population, more events SHOULD involve them. That's just math. If there's a room with 60 black people and 10 white people, and 18 black people get the flu, but only 3 white people get the flu...is the flu racist? No. It's still 30% of each population that are affected.
Now, that doesn't address the total numbers in the first statistic, but that starts to go down its own path, involving things like poverty, education, etc. I know there are a lot of Americans with an attitude of "well, just do better", but I will never understand how anybody with political power expects to have a better country without putting more resources into education and after school programs. For me, it starts to get into some of George Carlin's ideas of they want you to be smart, but not "too smart".
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While they were both racially instigated, neither murder was racially motivated but if either was, it was more likely to be Martin/Zimmerman. I do distinguish this case from Zimmerman in one very important way though. That is in that Zimmerman was stalking Martin, Martin had a very real reason to fear for his life. He may have been the initial aggressor, but he confronted Zimmerman out of fear (fight or flight, Martin chose fight). He thought someone was following him and went on the offensive in order to try to protect himself. He hid and tried to get the jump on Zimmerman but was eventually overpowered.
I confidently believe that when Martin confronted Zimmerman he had no idea Zimmerman had a gun. He wasn't jumping Zimmerman because he wanted to randomly attack some guy but rather because he feared Zimmerman meant him harm. Hell, I would too if I was walking home from the store and I realized someone was following me hiding behind bushes and such. I'd imagine if Martin had known about the gun he would have tried to run off rather than confront Zimmerman. During the confrontation is when Martin discovered he had a gun but he was committed at that point and his only hope was to get the gun away from Zimmerman before he used it on him. I don't think Martin would have used the gun to kill Zimmerman if he had gotten ahold of it. I'm not sure if Zimmerman actually feared for his life in this situation but I think it's likely he didn't. In that case, I think it's possible that Zimmerman felt like this was his opportunity to kill someone and get away with it, potentially this is where the racial motivation comes into play. Really, I'm just not sure but that's neither here nor there.
Here, I feel as if Brown may have made the initial physical engagement not because he feared for his life in being stalked and followed by some random civilian but rather because he was angry at this cop who had probably just made some very off-color remarks directed toward him. Even if Brown did have a fear at that point, it was a fear of being caught because of the robbery he had just committed, which reasonable self defense doesn't apply to being arrested, justly or unjustly. Now, let me be clear here, I'm not saying that's the reason Wilson engaged Brown because it seems as if he didn't draw the connection with the robbery right off the bat. Instead, what I'm saying is that the robbery was still on Brown's mind because he had just done it and his fear of being arrested could have been his motivation to engage Wilson.
Essentially, the biggest differences between the 2 cases in my mind is Wilson's status and clear identification as a police office as well as the fact that Wilson wasn't attempting to follow Brown covertly.
To further address your point, and I'm not sure if you were agreeing with me or not, but basically I think we're on the same page here. The incident could have started out as racially motivated on behalf of Wilson but that still doesn't mean the outcome was racially motivated and also wasn't a justification for Brown to physically engage Wilson.
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Their source appears to be the FBI, Census Bureau and the CDC.I found the 2nd part of this interesting. I'd like to see more data on this from a non-shitty source:
n8rockerasu
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I agree with almost all of this. The Martin case is particularly sad because he definitely was cornered, and I agree, I doubt he suspected that Zimmerman had a gun. How many times do people get into fistfights and that's just the end of it? It's entirely possible that he lost his life simply because he was "winning". But who's to say what Zimmerman's line of "fearing for his life" actually was? It's tough because again, you can't jump somebody because you think they're following you or MIGHT mean to do you harm. You're fearful of a confrontation...so you create a confrontation. Not exactly bright. But hey...17 year old kid.
I'd like to think I would turn around and say "Do you have a problem?" but more than likely, I would just keep walking to my destination looking over my shoulder, crossing the street to try to get away from the person, etc. My thoughts definitely wouldn't go to "I have to get them before they get me." But I'm also 32. At 17, I don't know what I would have thought. I still don't think I'd jump the guy. But a less than mature reaction is not unthinkable. But this raises the question of if his destination was somewhere he didn't want Zimmerman to know he was going. Was he "caught" doing something he shouldn't have been?
That said, Zimmerman shouldn't have gotten off clean. I think his concealed carry license should have been taken away. There was solid evidence that he willingly disobeyed 911 instructions and engaged himself in a confrontation knowing that he was carrying a gun. This goes against almost everything you're taught (as a civilian) carrying a concealed weapon. So, even if he got himself into a situation where he "had" to use his gun...he shouldn't have been in that situation to begin with. And it was irresponsible.
Allowing people who employ that kind of logic to carry deadly weapons is dangerous as hell. Although, I guess you could make a similar argument for allowing certain people to drive. Either way, there aren't laws for that...but maybe there should be. You can have your driver's license taken away for acting irresponsibly. You can even have your kids taken away for acting irresponsibly. But it's incredible the lengths it takes to pry a gun from somebody's hands.
n8rockerasu
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*sigh* critical thinking, people. Even if the numbers are true...removing context or painting them in a certain light can send a different message. That might as well be O'Reilly's calling card.
I suppose we're getting off onto a bit of tangent here but yeah, I agree. Zimmerman went looking for a confrontation. Where I think we disagree to a certain extent is that I feel as if his stalking of Martin was sufficient to establish him as the initial aggressor. Martin's first instinct clearly wasn't to run away, but if it had been there's a good chance he'd be alive today. He just couldn't have known at the time though.
You mention about people getting into fistfights and that being the end of it. In fact, you're on to something there. I really don't have time to look it up right now but I remember from college that a significant portion of homicides between strangers begins in a situation where it starts as a fight but escalates to murder because one or both parties happened to have a weapon of some kind on them or easily accessible.
I know it's been a while since the case popped up, but C'MON, man. It was half time during the basketball all-star game and he went to the corner store to get a drink and some skittles for his younger brother. Not to mention that he didn't have anything on him and he was talking to his female friend most of the walk home. I highly doubt he was headed to a crack house in the cul de sac.
See, I knew you weren't a terrible person. :lol:
What I'm saying is that, perhaps, some of the evidence presented to the Grand Jury *should not* have been presented,Which is exactly why we have the rules of evidence in the first place...
n8rockerasu
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Oh, no. I doubt it too. I just said it raises the question. People just have to decide what's more likely: That he couldn't allow Zimmerman to see where he was going? Or that he just made a foolish decision to jump the guy out of fear? Considering his age, it probably was the latter...which makes it all the more unfortunate, considering Zimmerman was doing something he had no damn business doing in the first place.
Not sure how many "life lessons" can be taken from these cases, but in general, I'd say never take the first swing and haul ass out of there the first chance you get. That doesn't mean you still won't end up shot...but if avoiding the conflict entirely isn't an option, I'd wager that those are your best chances.
Finger_Shocker
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Apparently the new get out of jail card is the badge
So in NYC a officer with previous questionable actions have been freed by the Grand Jury from criminal charges. Oh and guess what its in good old white Staten Island
So in NYC a officer with previous questionable actions have been freed by the Grand Jury from criminal charges. Oh and guess what its in good old white Staten Island
Finger_Shocker
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Heck to Fox News anyone that darker then white is consider Black....I found the 2nd part of this interesting. I'd like to see more data on this from a non-shitty source:
Its shit like this that continue to prejudice white old people, the same type of people that sits on GRAND JURIES usually
n8rockerasu
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More generalized blanket statements that are actually more racist than anything anybody else is saying.
You could just comment on Bill O'Reilly individually...and judge him for his own shortcomings. And not just lambast an entire group of society. You realize that's an option right? Why should you expect better from others when you're so willing to do the same thing?
Finger_Shocker
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As much as you like to claim that is racist it is not.... If you expect a white right leaning most like republican individual to protect the rights of a minority, you are better off paddling upstream...
And I never labeled a whole group, I made it clear that the majority of typical white old people will and always be racist. which is the truth.
Nothing has changed since Rodney King, police are ever more violent and even with evidence they escape prosecution.
I mean after 9/11, did our gov't go protest peacefully against those "muslims" and arabs ....LOL no we the USA took all our guns, ammo and WMD's ( uranium depleted weapon ) and went on a killing spree in the Middle East and even started a additional war based on flimsy evidence, with even more killing
However, when in the USA where LEO kill/maim/beat/abuse people on a daily basis, the gov't want people to protest peacefully...
The joke is on all of us, I love how the gov't wants one thing while they do the complete opposite
And Finger_Shocker proves his troll status. Ha! That or he's so dumb that he doesn't realize what a group is . . .
Fell Open Ian
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I say this as someone which genuinely hates both parties:
A lot of these recent racially charged incidents have happened in areas which are controlled by Democrats either federally and/or locally. There are, of course, exceptions but to paint Republicans as 'racist white men' in the face of a Democrat president and a Democrat attorney general and Democrat governors and Democrat prosecutors and Democrat mayors is disingenuous to say the very least.
A lot of these recent racially charged incidents have happened in areas which are controlled by Democrats either federally and/or locally. There are, of course, exceptions but to paint Republicans as 'racist white men' in the face of a Democrat president and a Democrat attorney general and Democrat governors and Democrat prosecutors and Democrat mayors is disingenuous to say the very least.
Finger_Shocker
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Why don't you pay attention or read properly, but when you start posting info from Fox News I don't expect any intelligence level from you..
A majority of old white people, did I say ALL? I said a "majority" of those people in the old white category are racist... Some Vs. All unless you don't understand the difference
And for a person who was posting percentages do you understand the difference btw a HIGH MAJORITY vs. ALL
Thank for wasting my time to call you stupid
bread's done