20 cent fee per bag in Seattle

Koggit

Koggit

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http://www.seattle.gov/util/Service...e_&_Litter/GreenFeeFoamBanProposals/index.htm

Summary: If passed (which it will), Seattle businesses will charge 20 cents per bag. If you bring your own bag, no bag tax. Small businesses will keep the 20 cent fee, big businesses will keep 5 cents per bag and pay 15 cents per bag to the city. The city will use the revenue "for waste prevention, recycling, city cleanup and environmental education programs."

I think this is great.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Hmm. I'd rather see the price decrease for people who bring their own bags, than go up for those who don't.[/QUOTE]

What? Reward people? Why would you want to change behavior through rewarding people?

Nah we really need to continue to try and force people to change their habits through punishing measures. That's REAL freedom.

All ills on this planet can be solved with painful enough rule to change habits. Right, pizza?
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']What? Reward people? Why would you want to change behavior through rewarding people?

Nah we really need to continue to try and force people to change their habits through punishing measures. That's REAL freedom.

All ills on this planet can be solved with painful enough rule to change habits. Right, pizza?[/QUOTE]

The tax isn't just punitive, they're causing problems. The production and shipping emits GHGs, while the plastic slowly photodegrades in our landfills (when they actually make it there -- and in our water when they don't). The tax is being put toward preventing and reversing the damage caused by the action. That's very fair.

Where would you propose the finance for a reward come from, and then what do you propose is done to counteract the damage done by those who choose to use paper/plastic anyway?

[quote name='mykevermin']Hmm. I'd rather see the price decrease for people who bring their own bags, than go up for those who don't.[/QUOTE]

A lot of stores already do that. Safeway and QFC (the only two grocery stores I shop at) both offer 3 cents per reusable bag you put your groceries in -- if your groceries fit in 3 reusable bags, you get 9 cents off.
 
[quote name='Koggit']The tax isn't just punitive, they're causing problems. The production and shipping emits GHGs, while the plastic slowly photodegrades in our landfills (when they actually make it there -- and in our water when they don't). The tax is being put toward preventing and reversing the damage caused by the action. That's very fair.[/quote]

Where would you propose the finance for a reward come from, and then what do you propose is done to counteract the damage done by those who choose to use paper/plastic anyway?

I'm not expert enough on the entire situation, but I don't see why the government can't give tax incentives to the stores themselves for dealing with it in whatever creative way they can.

I'm confident it could be worked out in a way like mykevermin said. Give people a discount for it. Reward stores that give discounts for it.
Click to expand...
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I'm not expert enough on the entire situation, but I don't see why the government can't give tax incentives to the stores themselves for dealing with it in whatever creative way they can.

I'm confident it could be worked out in a way like mykevermin said. Give people a discount for it. Reward stores that give discounts for it.
[/QUOTE]

Don't get me wrong, I totally believe a tax incentive would cause less bags to be wasted, but the two sides of this coin (tax increase vs. decrease) are just determining how much money is in the environmental budget.



Tax Increase For Bag-Users:

- Less bags are used.

- Revenue from the tax is used the off-set the damage done by those who pay the tax.



Tax Break For Bagless-Shpppers:

- Less bags are used.

- Loss of revenue from the tax break comes out of the city budget, and the damage bag-users cause goes unchecked.



The rationale behind the proposal is simple: our environment will be protected. The city isn't giving you the freedom to decide whether or not the environment gets protected.

However, how you choose to protect it -- whether through conservation, or damage then restoration -- that's up to you. You can not damage the environment in the first place, in which case you don't pay to fix it, or you can damage the environment and be forced to pay a tax that alleviates what you've caused.

The only freedom being threatened is the freedom to destroy the environment, but since the environment doesn't belong to anyone, I'd say that's pretty fair.
 
This is awesome! I wish they would have it in my area. Then these idiots who come up to my register asking for double bags on everything will have to pay extra.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Hmm. I'd rather see the price decrease for people who bring their own bags, than go up for those who don't.[/QUOTE]

The inner CAG is strong with this one.

PS I agree with you
 
[quote name='MrFixit66']no taxation without representation.[/quote]

eeeehhh?

Anyway, I agree that an incentive would probably be better than a fee, but I can see the point in charging the extra money. They both make sense, but it seems that charging a tax would do more than giving people money that would have to be made up elsewhere. People would probably better support and be more responsive to the free money though. Decisions, decisions...
 
i dont like the taxes. i dont get plastic bags at the store, i get paper bags. i dont think a tax is the answer... and i especially dont like that they tax the paper bags as well.
 
I recycle my bags. There's a collection bin right inside the door, so it's no trouble to take them in the next time I'm shopping.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']

All ills on this planet can be solved with painful enough rule to change habits. Right, pizza?[/quote]

Evidently not extreme stupidity. ;)
 
What I don't understand is why people oppose this when it's so much easier than using plastic/paper... seriously. Even if paper/plastic didn't hurt the environment and there was no tax incentive, why on Earth would you continue to use paper/plastic? Reusable bags are more comfortable to carry, hold MUCH more per bag, and won't tear or rip when full of heavy items. No more carrying the gallon of milk separately, just toss it in the bag. They're just much better.

[quote name='Allnatural']I recycle my bags. There's a collection bin right inside the door, so it's no trouble to take them in the next time I'm shopping.[/QUOTE]

Plastics take a large amount of energy to produce, and energy to recycle -- not to mention shipping. Using energy has a big impact on lots of things -- more GHGs are emitted, demand for oil increases, etc.

Further, energy concerns aside, plastic plants (and the shipping of raw plastic materials) makes up for 25% of our water's plastic pollution.

Recycling is much better than throwing it away, but it's faaar from a solution. You should consider investing in a couple reusable bags.

[quote name='RAMSTORIA']i dont like the taxes. i dont get plastic bags at the store, i get paper bags. i dont think a tax is the answer... and i especially dont like that they tax the paper bags as well.[/QUOTE]

Why should they tax one and not the other? Paper bags aren't any better for the environment. Plastic is a bigger problem for water and soil pollution (because they photodegrade rather than biodegrade), but paper uses FAR more energy -- energy conservation is just as important as reducing pollutants.

http://www.reusablebags.com/facts.php?id=7

ENERGY TO PRODUCE BAG ORIGINALLY (BTUs)
Safeway Plastic Bags: 594 BTUs
Safeway Paper Bags: 2511 BTUs
(Source: 1989 Plastic Recycling Directory, Society of Plastics Industry.)

In 1999, 14 million trees were cut to produce the 10 billion paper grocery bags used by Americans that year alone.

POLLUTANTS PAPER V.S. PLASTIC
Paper sacks generate 70% more air and 50 times more water pollutants than plastic bags. (note this is a little deceptive, since they're going by ppm of pollutants emitted rather than how harmful the pollutants are -- in truth, plastic is much worse for our soil and water)
Source: "Comparison of the Effects on the Environment of Polyethylene and Paper Carrier Bags," Federal Office of the Environment, August 1988

ENERGY TO RECYCLE PACKAGE ONCE (BTUs)
Safeway Plastic Bags: 17 BTUs
Safeway Paper Bags: 1444 BTUs
Source: 1989 Plastic Recycling Directory, Society of Plastics Industry.
 
[quote name='Koggit']
Source: 1989 Plastic Recycling Directory, Society of Plastics Industry. [/QUOTE]

show me a source thats not 20 years old
 
Grocery stores would charge 2 euro cents per bag when I was in Italy last year. People would still buy 'em, but a lot more would bring cloth bags 'n whatnot.

(funnily enough, some restrooms DO have a fee to use 'em in Italy. It's to keep up maintence 'n whatnot)

I think this is an awesome idea. 20 cents sounds a bit steep, but as long as that amount is going to worthwhile causes (whatever the hell that means), I'm down for it.

The only problem I would have is that I'll have to buy grocery bags for the trashcans haha.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Hmm. I'd rather see the price decrease for people who bring their own bags, than go up for those who don't.[/QUOTE]

As would I, but that's not going to make a difference. The reusable bags also carry a fee upfront, and isn't always compensated for with a rebate or savings on your purchase.

For the amount of groceries we buy every week, we'd be looking at nearly $20 worth of reusable bags.
 
This has been a concern forever. They are doing this since it is becoming too costly
to produce the stuff.
 
This could all be rectified by passing a law forbidding stores from offering bags in the first place. I'm sure all you commie-hippie-wannabees would think this is even better way to stick it to the evil corporations.

It would force people to reuse old bags, buy reusable ones, and nobody has to be taxed for anything. Having worked in grocery, I can tell you that bag expense is very taxing(pun intended) to the overall profit margin anyway, so most grocery outlets would welcome an excuse to stop providing bags.

Hell, I PAY Costco for the privilege of not being offered a bag when I leave. If I'm lucky, they'll offer me a used cardboard packing box - which works perfectly well for me.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']This could all be rectified by passing a law forbidding stores from offering bags in the first place. I'm sure all you commie-hippie-wannabees would think this is even better way to stick it to the evil corporations.

It would force people to reuse old bags, buy reusable ones, and nobody has to be taxed for anything. Having worked in grocery, I can tell you that bag expense is very taxing(pun intended) to the overall profit margin anyway, so most grocery outlets would welcome an excuse to stop providing bags.

Hell, I PAY Costco for the privilege of not being offered a bag when I leave. If I'm lucky, they'll offer me a used cardboard packing box - which works perfectly well for me.[/QUOTE]

I don't understand why you'd rather no option than a taxed option. Why, specifically, would you prefer a no-bag law over a bag tax?
 
[quote name='Koggit']I don't understand why you'd rather no option than a taxed option. Why, specifically, would you prefer a no-bag law over a bag tax?[/QUOTE]

He thinks everyone is a communist. I don't think that means what he thinks that means.
 
[quote name='CocheseUGA']As would I, but that's not going to make a difference. The reusable bags also carry a fee upfront, and isn't always compensated for with a rebate or savings on your purchase.

For the amount of groceries we buy every week, we'd be looking at nearly $20 worth of reusable bags.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, well, don't let bmulligan ever fool you into thinking that your power as an individual and a consumer matches that of corporations - because, as you've demonstrated here, you don't.

Your choices are:
1) Use shitty plastic bags or
2) Pay them money not to use what is offered for free

Now, you have a choice, but your choices are decided by the corporation. Try that sort of relationship in day-to-day life and see how equitable that is for you. Hell, you're a parent, you probably do it for your children. But do you do it for your wife?

(That gets into something I don't get about right-wing frothing hatred for the "green" movement, as it has helped expand the economy by creating a new set of goods, as well as a growing cohort of consumers who are interested in buying green products (though their savvy varies from person to person). The green movement (if it can be called that) has led to capitalism's opportunity to sell the people a new, environmentally friendly widget, and for a good clip of a price I might add, and right-wing pro-capitalism nutjobs HATE HATE HATE the green market.
 
Now, how is this fair that small businesses get to keep the 'tax' but large businesses have to give 15 cents to the government ?
 
[quote name='bmulligan']Now, how is this fair that small businesses get to keep the 'tax' but large businesses have to give 15 cents to the government ?[/QUOTE]

There's a point where it becomes a bit ridiculous to ask a merchant to keep track of the tax and pay 15 cents for each one at the end of the year. The overhead would likely exceed the tax for many tiny businesses. The bookkeeping of bags used and filing the tax would probably cost the business more than the ~$30 that the tax would cost them.

I doubt big business is butthurt over it, since they're saving tens of thousands just by not having to buy bags.

It's very fair for everyone involved.
 
[quote name='Koggit']There's a point where it becomes a bit ridiculous to ask a merchant to keep track of the tax and pay 15 cents for each one at the end of the year. The overhead would likely exceed the tax for many tiny businesses. The bookkeeping of bags used and filing the tax would probably cost the business more than the ~$30 that the tax would cost them.

I doubt big business is butthurt over it, since they're saving tens of thousands just by not having to buy bags.

It's very fair for everyone involved.[/QUOTE]


Treating similar business differently isn't fair by any definition. Many larger business operate on a smaller profit margin and stay in business only by the volume of business they do. To say "it won't hurt them" because they are big is just naive.

The "fine line" that determines small from big is also a political plaything than can potentially ruin, or at the very least, be unfair to those business that fall close to this line.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Hmm. I'd rather see the price decrease for people who bring their own bags, than go up for those who don't.[/QUOTE]

Some places already do that. At least one grocery store in my area does that. Small discount for each bag you bring.

I haven't used it as I don't like that particular store, I just take my bags back and chuck them in the recycling container at the grocery store I shop at.

Price up for people who don't use it will probably be more effective though. I'd bring my own bags if I had to pay 20 cents more if I didn't, versus saving the 3 cents a bag or whatever it is at that local store.

I think more people are conscious of making changes to avoid increases in cost than they are in making changes to get savings. Though both save money, the former is more of a slap in the face and gets people's attention.

[quote name='Dori-dori']
The only problem I would have is that I'll have to buy grocery bags for the trashcans haha.[/QUOTE]

Nah. Just be more cautious of not putting messy stuff in the small trash cans, then you can just not put a bag in them and then just dump them in the larger trash cans with regular trashbags in them when they get full.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']
Nah. Just be more cautious of not putting messy stuff in the small trash cans, then you can just not put a bag in them and then just dump them in the larger trash cans with regular trashbags in them when they get full.[/quote]

:0 That's true too. (Although I definitely don't want to be messin' with my roommates trash if I can help it)

Lately I've been seeing a big push to use recycled paper (cloth? not exactly sure what it's made out of) bags in my local grocery stores, and I live in Colrado. They range from 99 cents to a couple bucks (the expensive ones are insulated!), and I think there's an additional discount for groceries if you use them? In any case, I think it's a great idea, and I hope it means less trash soon!
 
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