2009-2010 NBA Thread

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[quote name='Soodmeg']Yeah...ok J7.

I am not going to get into anything with you. You have made little sense since you started posting. Once you said that Gasol was only good because he was tall it was pretty much over.

You seem to make claims and then quickly back track on everything. Why dont you trying just saying what you mean the first time instead of saying things like, "Gasol is only good because he is tall......no what I mean to say." "He is not as good as Bill Russell and Wilt.." Why the fuck are we even comparing the two? Why did you even bring this up? You make claim that he isnt that great and then go back 15 decades for your comparison and you pick 2 people who were not even the same height. Wilt was 7-1 and Russell was 6-9. Gasol stands 7ft even. Where are you even going with this?


I get the feeling that your the type that has a complete thought in their head but half of it gets lost when you type it out.[/QUOTE]
Good don't because I don't feel like having to reexplain what I said because you choose to distort it and change it. What did you expect me to say about Gasol? I hate the guy possibly more than any other player in the NBA. I hate the Lakers. There you go... At least I'm honest about it.

Why did I bring up Russel and Wilt in relation to Gasol? Because people started talking about how great Gasol is and asking me what about that... I was pointing out that he is not as great as some of the best bigs to play the game. I was showing who I respect when it comes to bigs. I think it was pretty clear why that got brought up. You seem to want to pigeon hole me though for the sake of your argument.

I don't see any backtracking. I stated things and then explained myself further when people assumed I thought Gasol has no talent. He clearly has talent. But I don't see what tall centers do as all that special. It's personal preference. I see that their height gives them a big advantage, and if they're not pulling in huge numbers I don't view them as anything special. I don't see how I could be any clearer and to the point.

15 decades huh. So we shouldn't compare players now to the greatest players of all time? I'm sorry for comparing Gasol to the greatest, maybe I should compare him to players who are merely good? What is your personal time limit for making comparisons? You want more recent players? Olajuwon, Ewing, Karl Malone, Kareem, Shaq, David Robinson, Tim Duncan.

Maybe you get that feeling because that's what you want to get. And maybe you get it because my last post was started and had to delay finishing it for 3 hours.
 
The only thing I hate more than the Lakers is "fans" who cant get past their fandom and spend most of their time trying to debate by claiming nonsense. It seems to me that you have no idea how to discuss and debate sports as 99% of your argument is based on simply not liking Gasol. The statement was Gasol is a top 3 PF/C in the league now. (Key word here is now)

Your response to this is, "he is only that way because he is tall and he is not as good as Wilt or Bill." You fail to mention any of Gasol stats, Championships, EFF rating, etc etc but take the childish and debate 101 route of instantly comparing to a G.O.A.T.

What is your actual point that you are trying to prove? That Gasol isnt as good as Wilt/Bill? Who the fuck cares? No one brought that up but you.

You also dont seem to grasp that people dont normally compare players outside of their eras because you have to account for way too much outside information. Its why you hear Michael Jordan/Magic/Larry Legend etc etc more than Wilt, Bill, Pistol Pete.

Half the rules that we have now werent even dreamed up yet and for christ sake. Wilt and Bill played their entire careers before the 3 pointer was introduced. So your attempt to directly compare the players is laughable at best. As in maybe they wouldnt have got so many blocks if people had a reason to shoot outside of 8ft.

So I will join the majority of the rest of the people in this thread and simply not respond to your crazy talk.
 
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I know this is a double post but I wanted to separate it from by response to wild willy up there.

Comparing Ray Allen to JJ. Redick? Come on playboy, dont J7 it. Ray Allen is one of the greatest knock down shooter of all time. Open for 3? Money. Stop and pop? Money. Off a screen? Money. Fadaway? Money. He creates his own shot all the time less so then when he was on the Sonics but he is still plenty capable.

Now he does have this tendency to go ice cold for games at a time but when he is on he cant miss no matter what he is doing. Although rare...Ray Allen has posterized more than a handful of people during his career. The guy can drive and get up easy....he just doesnt.

I figure if you are a knock down shooter of Ray Allen caliber...what is the point of driving and banging with people?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1jetY101QA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paM-5TxEVzA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ex4ZbINmok&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbkzy6IkeWY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfPd76yKJRI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhqPPYOtG9Q&feature=related
 
[quote name='docvinh']Yeah, I'm with you on this, most people think he only shoots jumpers, but I've watched a couple of games where he has taken it to the rim. It may not be pretty, but he gets it done. Come on, JJ Redick? I've seen that dude miss a ton of wide open jumpers.[/QUOTE]

Obviously, you don't watch college basketball. He was the best player to play college ball in the past 10 years. Example... watch him drop 38 on one of the NBA's best point guards Chris Paul.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7tD0T5tjD8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzHf2o-SW7Q&feature=related
Again, the Magic don't use screens. If they did, he would be insanely dangerous. Ala his game mimics Ray Allen. Great off the ball movement, amazing shooters.

[quote name='soodmeg']I figure if you are a knock down shooter of Ray Allen caliber...what is the point of driving and banging with people?[/QUOTE]
first off, put films in spoilers past the first instance. second, i agree with your statement. All i was stating was all he currently does is run off screens and knock down shots. Yes, there are instances where he drives the basket but he only does it on mismatches such as the example Jlarlee posted and it is very small in comparison to his screen shots or open shots from a Rondo/Pierce pass. As for the JJ comment, read above.
 
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[quote name='lordopus99']
All i was stating was all he currently does is run off screens and knock down shots. Yes, there are instances where he drives the basket but he only does it on mismatches such as the example Jlarlee posted and it is very small in comparison to his screen shots or open shots from a Rondo/Pierce pass. As for the JJ comment, read above.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's in college though.....I thought we were talking about the NBA? I would say Redick has more trouble getting open since he's been in the NBA, I mean, they weren't doing a ton of screening in Milwaukee and his numbers were much better then Reddicks have ever been.
 
Redick is slower, has less stamina and weaker than Allen. He also simply doesnt posses the pure athleticism needed for a elite guard. He is more comparable to Kyle Kover or Jason Kapono. Guys who can hit a open jumper but not much else.

Redick can knock down jumpers with the best of them but he doesnt posses any of the other skills needed to be an elite go to guy in the NBA. At least not yet but I doubt he will get there. The highest he has ever average is 10 points.
 
I dunno, Reddick would probably perform a bit better if he received more minutes as opposed to his usual what 18-20 minutes?

Anyone else excited for tonight's game?
 
[quote name='lordopus99']
2/3 of Pierces points come from running over/jumping into players i.e. running over players. Kobe Bryant on the other hand doesn't run over people as much as I made him out to be. As for Ray Allen, stop kidding yourself. The guy doesn't create his own jumper. I just watch a bunch of youtube clips just to make sure I mentioned it correctly; all proved my theory right. He either ran off screens or got a pass wide open from a driving player. I barely saw any clips where he actually drove on a player and created his own shot. In addition, I never said he wasn't a good mover off the ball but even still he isn't the best. As for the Open the Court comment, he doesn't do that; Pierce and Rondo do that for your team. :roll: [/QUOTE]
It's evident you don't like Pierce based on prior discussion, so we'll just leave it at that. Allen doesn't create tons of shots for himself, but he does create shots off the dribble often. He may not create tons of space or do that very well, but he often still makes those shots since he's such a great shooter. He does the majority of his shots off screens and is very good at doing that. The announcers have claimed time and time again he is one of the best at doing that.

They have also claimed numerous times (just within this series) that he helps open the court so that other players can drive to the basket, especially Rondo. Why do you think that a great 3 point shooter does not open up space in the paint? They draw their defender out to the perimeter.


[quote name='lordopus99']
The game today is different than what it was back then. Thus you can't compare one for one. I think Pau Gasol is one of the best current Power Forwards in the league.
Like I mentioned before, Wilt and Russell played in an era where most players were small (6'5ish)... in other words, they didn't have to compete for boards since most people were too small to out jump them. For instance, Wilt's 1962 team... the next tallest guy on roster that played good minutes was 6'6 Tom Meschery... the majority of the team was 6'4. Pau, for instance, plays on a roster with a 7'0 Andrew Bynum, 6'10 Lamar Odom... the majority of the team is 6'7. Again, Russell and Chamberlain stats are inflated. It's why Howard can't outrebound/outblock them and it's why Jordan/Kobe couldn't outscore them. Different game than it once was. [/QUOTE]
Let's take a snapshot. 1965 NBA Playoffs. Bill Russel 16.5 ppg, 25.2 rpg, 6.3 apg, they don't list blocks. (I did not choose one of his best years) Who did he play against in those playoffs?

1st Round for the Lakers:

Gene Wiley
Position: Center
Height: 6-10 Weight: 210 lbs.

Darrall Imhoff C 6-10

Leroy Ellis
Position: Center-Forward
Height: 6-10 Weight: 210 lbs.

along with 2 other C-F 6'9'' & 6'7''

2nd Round:

Wilt Chamberlain
Position: Center
Height: 7-1 Weight: 275 lbs.

Along with 3 other C-F 6'9''

Compare those team's rosters to the current Celtic team. They're not much different. While you are correct the game was different and guards and forwards were a bit smaller (mostly guards) (I think everyone knows this). The centers are about the same as they are today. And a snapshot of Russel's stats show that it was not about height.

I think Howard is overrated for one thing. I do not view him as good as the best to ever play. Close but not there. Even if Wilt's stats are inflated, they're still more than twice as good as Howard's. Same goes for Russel's rebounding compared to Howard.
[quote name='lordopus99']
Are you sure about that?
Exhibit A: Dwight Howard... you said Ray Allen doesn't suck, yet around the 1:15 mark he got past Howard only to be swatting to the fourth row.
I could add other players if you want.
As for Rondo, he was example of a small guy who couldn't make jumpers. I never said he wasn't a good driver and passer. I personally like Rondo because he plays with a lot of passion which lacks in the majority of NBA players.
And bruises do affect... ask some of your fellow Celtics i.e. Rasheed Wallace's back, Big Baby's concussion, etc.[/QUOTE]
Umm... we were talking about guarding smaller guys on the switch, not sitting in the paint and blocking layups and close shots... and you're using the best big defender in the league... and you're using their best blocks of the season highlight reel? ... :roll:

We were talking about Ray Allen also being able to create his own shot from time to time. He did that in that video, so thanks for that. Howard was not guarding him on the switch there. Howard ran up from behind him and blocked him. So thanks for the video.

I'm just saying when you brought up that Pau can shoot jumpers and Rondo can't in your argument of why Pau is so great compared to Rondo, that Rondo does much more than his shooting skill.

So now bruises = concussions and back spasms.

[quote name='Soodmeg']The only thing I hate more than the Lakers is "fans" who cant get past their fandom and spend most of their time trying to debate by claiming nonsense. It seems to me that you have no idea how to discuss and debate sports as 99% of your argument is based on simply not liking Gasol. The statement was Gasol is a top 3 PF/C in the league now. (Key word here is now)

Your response to this is, "he is only that way because he is tall and he is not as good as Wilt or Bill." You fail to mention any of Gasol stats, Championships, EFF rating, etc etc but take the childish and debate 101 route of instantly comparing to a G.O.A.T.

What is your actual point that you are trying to prove? That Gasol isnt as good as Wilt/Bill? Who the fuck cares? No one brought that up but you.

You also dont seem to grasp that people dont normally compare players outside of their eras because you have to account for way too much outside information. Its why you hear Michael Jordan/Magic/Larry Legend etc etc more than Wilt, Bill, Pistol Pete.

Half the rules that we have now werent even dreamed up yet and for christ sake. Wilt and Bill played their entire careers before the 3 pointer was introduced. So your attempt to directly compare the players is laughable at best. As in maybe they wouldnt have got so many blocks if people had a reason to shoot outside of 8ft.

So I will join the majority of the rest of the people in this thread and simply not respond to your crazy talk.[/QUOTE]
So now you're restricting comparisons to only active players. That's fine because I already said Pau is one of the best bigs now. You claimed a lot of nonsense yourself about the West being so much better than the East. And you keep making exaggerations and stating things that are false like half the playoffs teams in the East being below .500

Because I hate a player and give him little respect, I do not how to debate any sport due to my statements about said player. That is amazing logic! :lol:

I did mention stats, I pointed out how much better the best bigs stats to ever play are in comparison to Gasol. Like I said earlier, why should I not compare a player to the best to ever play the game if he's already one of the best right now. To really judge him is to compare him to those beyond who is playing right now. Should we pretend that they don't exist and that players ultimate skill is only based on active players?

My actual point is that Gasol is not as great as you make him out to be. There's not that many bigs right now that are the best to ever play the game.

I grasp that and I've said that even if you account for inflated stats, their stats are still more than twice as good.

You said that before so why are you still ranting and whining...
 
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[quote name='Soodmeg']The only thing I hate more than the Lakers is "fans" who cant get past their fandom and spend most of their time trying to debate by claiming nonsense. It seems to me that you have no idea how to discuss and debate sports as 99% of your argument is based on simply not liking Gasol. The statement was Gasol is a top 3 PF/C in the league now. (Key word here is now)

Your response to this is, "he is only that way because he is tall and he is not as good as Wilt or Bill." You fail to mention any of Gasol stats, Championships, EFF rating, etc etc but take the childish and debate 101 route of instantly comparing to a G.O.A.T.

What is your actual point that you are trying to prove? That Gasol isnt as good as Wilt/Bill? Who the fuck cares? No one brought that up but you.

You also dont seem to grasp that people dont normally compare players outside of their eras because you have to account for way too much outside information. Its why you hear Michael Jordan/Magic/Larry Legend etc etc more than Wilt, Bill, Pistol Pete.

Half the rules that we have now werent even dreamed up yet and for christ sake. Wilt and Bill played their entire careers before the 3 pointer was introduced. So your attempt to directly compare the players is laughable at best. As in maybe they wouldnt have got so many blocks if people had a reason to shoot outside of 8ft.

So I will join the majority of the rest of the people in this thread and simply not respond to your crazy talk.[/QUOTE]
So now you're restricting comparisons to only active players. That's fine because I already said Pau is one of the best bigs now. You claimed a lot of nonsense yourself about the West being so much better than the East. And you keep making exaggerations and stating things that are false like half the playoffs teams in the East being below .500

Because I hate a player and give him little respect, I do not how to debate any sport due to my statements about said player. That is amazing logic! :lol:

I did mention stats, I pointed out how much better the best bigs stats to ever play are in comparison to Gasol. Like I said earlier, why should I not compare a player to the best to ever play the game if he's already one of the best right now. To really judge him is to compare him to those beyond who is playing right now. Should we pretend that they don't exist and that players ultimate skill is only based on active players?

My actual point is that Gasol is not as great as you make him out to be. There's not that many bigs right now that are the best to ever play the game.

I grasp that and I've said that even if you account for inflated stats, their stats are still more than twice as good.

You said that before so why are you still ranting and whining...
 
[quote name='J7.']
Let's take a snapshot. 1965 NBA Playoffs. Bill Russel 16.5 ppg, 25.2 rpg, 6.3 apg, they don't list blocks. (I did not choose one of his best years) Who did he play against in those playoffs?

1st Round for the Lakers:

Gene Wiley
Position: Center
Height: 6-10 Weight: 210 lbs.

Darrall Imhoff C 6-10

Leroy Ellis
Position: Center-Forward
Height: 6-10 Weight: 210 lbs.

along with 2 other C-F 6'9'' & 6'7''

2nd Round:

Wilt Chamberlain
Position: Center
Height: 7-1 Weight: 275 lbs.

Along with 3 other C-F 6'9''

Compare those team's rosters to the current Celtic team. They're not much different. While you are correct the game was different and guards and forwards were a bit smaller (mostly guards) (I think everyone knows this). The centers are about the same as they are today. And a snapshot of Russel's stats show that it was not about height.
[/QUOTE]

Ok lets compare.
- Kendrick Perkins - 6'10 278 lbs
- Kevin Garnett - 6'11 253lbs
- Rasheed Wallace - 6'11 230lbs
The big difference is these guys have muscle mass unlike the players you listed. Your example actually proves it. Wilt outweighs each of his opponents by 65 pounds. Thats huge when getting position. See Shaq in the 90s for comparison. No one, even the legends Hakeem, Robinson, etc couldn't handle him one on one due to his size.

Stats really don't matter in this discussion as the game was different. Every bigs rebounds are inflated due to the lack of the 3. Anyone who has played basketball knows a rebound off a three pointer goes out farther than someone taking a 4ft jumper. Hence, it was easier for a big to pull in more boards than it is today. We can't judge how inflated the stats are due to this fact.

[quote name='J7']
I think Howard is overrated for one thing. I do not view him as good as the best to ever play. Close but not there. Even if Wilt's stats are inflated, they're still more than twice as good as Howard's. Same goes for Russel's rebounding compared to Howard.
[/QUOTE]
Again, stop comparing current players to old players. Howard is easily the best defensive player in the game since he arrived in the NBA. His defensive player of the year trophies prove that. I guarantee he becomes part of the Hall of Fame club at some point.

[quote name='J7']
We were talking about Ray Allen also being able to create his own shot from time to time. He did that in that video, so thanks for that. Howard was not guarding him on the switch there. Howard ran up from behind him and blocked him. So thanks for the video.
[/QUOTE]
You said bigs couldn't keep up with small guys. Well, the example still stands. Howard came up from behind because he could keep up with a small guy.

[quote name='J7']
I'm just saying when you brought up that Pau can shoot jumpers and Rondo can't in your argument of why Pau is so great compared to Rondo, that Rondo does much more than his shooting skill.

So now bruises = concussions and back spasms.
[/QUOTE]
:roll: it was an example of something he could do that some small players can't. In comparisons of the same Big level. Compare it to Kendrick Perkins "lack of a" jumper.

[quote name='J7']Yeah, that's in college though.....I thought we were talking about the NBA? I would say Redick has more trouble getting open since he's been in the NBA, I mean, they weren't doing a ton of screening in Milwaukee and his numbers were much better then Reddicks have ever been. [/QUOTE]
Let's examine the first thing.
Ray Allen's first year - 30.5 mins
JJ Redick's first year - 14.4 mins
Currently JJ only averages 22 mins. JJ Redick played on the Coach K system, a 2-3 screen setup leaving players for open shots. JJ Redick in addition to doing this became confident and started creating his own shot in addition to this system. Fast forward to today... JJ Redick was benched, which dropped his confidence. In addition to that, Van Gundy's system is dump to Howard pass out to shooters. A completely different system. Ray Allen on the other hand played under a similiar system and his team gave him the confidence to continue being the star that he once was at Connecticut. Only time will tell...
An example of players whose minutes affected production is Tracy McGrady. The dude in Toronto was known as Vince Carter's cousin and he was benched. He got traded and played as a new star and increased his averages ten fold.
 
im gonna cry if the lakers dont win. was wondering if anyone here does fantasy basketball/football ive used yahoo for some pick ems but i want to try something else.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']So when are the refs going to let these guys play basketball?[/QUOTE]


waaaaahhhhhhhh. Good thing the refs gave the Celtics the win in game 2 by Neutering Kobe with that horseshit foul call on Rondo's flop.
 
Kobe got a call on Rondo immediately prior to that where there was absolutely no contact. He's still getting superstar calls in this game.

Thats not what I'm talking about, though. They let them play for a few minutes then they call stupid little fouls on both teams, I don't get it. We don't watch this to watch referees make calls and to watch the starters leave the game in the first 3 minutes because of fouls.
 
How is Bill Kennedy reffing this game? He was fined by the league for baiting Doc Rivers into an ejection last season.

Even before that, Kennedy is legit gay and Doc made a comment during a game without knowing, and he's hated Doc ever since.
 
Celtics look stagnant offensively, but you can't feel too bad only being down 12 when Paul Pierce and Ray Allen have been nonexistent.
 
[quote name='yukine']Celtics look stagnant offensively, but you can't feel too bad only being down 12 when Paul Pierce and Ray Allen have been nonexistent.[/QUOTE]

They gotta bring it in the second half, doubt Kobe will let the ball movement die for the Lakers like it did last game.

Those 2 refs that got injured are needed badly. Not just for one team but for both.
 
i seriously cant stand stewart scott, hes so not hip or funny. why does he even have a job, fucking corn ball. get dan patrick on the nba games!
 
[quote name='sublime90']i seriously cant stand stewart scott, hes so not hip or funny. why does he even have a job, fucking corn ball. get dan patrick on the nba games![/QUOTE]

No ESPN/ABC doesn't deserve the finals, let TNT have it. Better everything, I can't fucking stand the commentators of Van Gundy, Mark Jackson, and David Breen is ok I guess but I'd rather have Doug Collins, Marv Albert, and Reggie Miller with Ernie, Chuck, and Kenny anyday.
 
[quote name='thamaster24']No ESPN/ABC doesn't deserve the finals, let TNT have it. Better everything, I can't fucking stand the commentators of Van Gundy, Mark Jackson, and David Breen is ok I guess but I'd rather have Doug Collins, Marv Albert, and Reggie Miller with Ernie, Chuck, and Kenny anyday.[/QUOTE]

You are a insane monkey. Van Gundy is solid all around although I would like to see, Van Gundy with the TNT crew.
 
Mark Jackson's the only one of the three I'm not a fan of. Breen does a good job calling the game, and Van Gundy legitimately knows the game better than most commentators. He provides some of the most insightful commentary of any NBA broadcaster. Yes, he makes some lame jokes, but I'll take that as a side to the knowledge he brings.
 
I guess the NBA doesn't need to worry about the players being locked out in a couple years, as long as they've got these refs that think they're the show.
 
Those last two bullshit calls, courtesy of Bill Kennedy.

Celtics fighting HARD through adversity. They folded once against Orlando when they thought the calls weren't going their way.
 
Where was the foul on Big Baby under the basket? Ooooo thats right, there wasn't one but he gets fouled anyways. I love the Celitcs fans crying.
 
Wow, I could have sworn Paul Pierce said the series wasn't going back to LA. I guess he assumed the Lakers were going to sweep the 3 games in Boston. Great game by Ray Allen. Did he bother to show up at all today or is he still living off of game 2?


Wow, what a stupid foul by the Lakers.
 
Paul Pierce misses a FT and the ball looks like it went off a Laker.


I love the rule. They can review who the ball went off of but they cant review a non foul. LOL.
 
They review possession on an out of bounds, but cannot call a foul if they see one on the play. On review, it's clear that Rondo fouled Odom, causing Odom to lose the ball out of bounds. They give the ball to the Celtics.

There's a loop hole they didn't think of.
 
Lakers GOT fuckED OVER HARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Odom gets fouled on the rebound and the Celtics get the ball.


Offensive foul by KG to give the ball back to the Lakers.
 
Celtics lose THHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE CEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLTTTTTTTTTTTTTTIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICCCCCSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS


LLLLOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
[quote name='wildcpac']Celtics lose THHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE CEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLTTTTTTTTTTTTTTIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICCCCCSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS


LLLLOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

Good god you are annoying.
 
[quote name='wildcpac']Kobe has had an awful game so far. 9-27 from the field. KG doesn't look like an old man anymore.[/QUOTE]

Kobe shot poorly, but he made a ton of effort plays. KG looked really good, but what I don't get is why Bynum didn't play in the 4th when he did the best job on KG defensively. Gasol and Bynum (when Perkins was out) was their best defensive combo tonight. The minimum offense provided by Odom doesn't counter how hard he got his ass kicked by Big Baby.
 
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