2009-2010 NBA Thread
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[quote name='Matt Young']The Bulls handily defeated the Bosh-less Raptors, which I expected. They still might blow it, though, since their remaining 2 games are against playoff teams- Boston and Charlotte- while the raptors play the awful Knicks and Pistons.[/QUOTE]
This isn't going to be easy for the Bulls. Toronto owns the tiebreaker. This is where 2 losses to the Nets, recent losses to the Heat and Bucks, and those 2 losses to the Raptors hurt. Bulls have the fact that the Boston game is in Chicago on their side. Hopefully that will mean when KG starts puckering his lips and pounding his chest it wont lead to Boston momentum (and thus, Boston 3s). As for Charlotte, Tyrus Thomas would absolutley orgasm over keeping the Bulls out of the playoffs. Bobcats can shoot 3s, too, so that's another worry.
The Boston game could hinge on if they rest KG. Every game since the KG trade between the 2 teams, when KG plays the Bulls get blown out. When he sits, they have a very good chance to win.
This isn't going to be easy for the Bulls. Toronto owns the tiebreaker. This is where 2 losses to the Nets, recent losses to the Heat and Bucks, and those 2 losses to the Raptors hurt. Bulls have the fact that the Boston game is in Chicago on their side. Hopefully that will mean when KG starts puckering his lips and pounding his chest it wont lead to Boston momentum (and thus, Boston 3s). As for Charlotte, Tyrus Thomas would absolutley orgasm over keeping the Bulls out of the playoffs. Bobcats can shoot 3s, too, so that's another worry.
The Boston game could hinge on if they rest KG. Every game since the KG trade between the 2 teams, when KG plays the Bulls get blown out. When he sits, they have a very good chance to win.
[quote name='lordopus99']
As for your listing, Shaq in his hayday was the most dominant player. Nobody could stop him one-on-one. He was like Jordan in the fact he made everyone around him better. He took Kobe from being unknown to a third time champion. He took an unknown Marquette player to an NBA Champion. Both players have struggled to get back to the same spot they once shared with him (granted Kobe finally got it done with Pau, Odom, and Ariza).[/QUOTE]
Wade was very much a "known" player when he was at Marquette.
[quote name='lordopus99']Yes Rondo has more people to pass to but let's not forget that the Bulls also have some capable shooters (Hinrich, Deng, Miller). Yes at times they can get streaky but so can Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. If you put anyone else at guard for Boston, you wouldn't get the same result. When Rondo came into the league, I personally thought he would be a bust since he stunk it up at Kentucky. But the one thing stats can't show is how much of a defensive presense he is. That is where I think he makes the difference compared to Rose.[/QUOTE]
Rondo was very good at Kentucky.
As for your listing, Shaq in his hayday was the most dominant player. Nobody could stop him one-on-one. He was like Jordan in the fact he made everyone around him better. He took Kobe from being unknown to a third time champion. He took an unknown Marquette player to an NBA Champion. Both players have struggled to get back to the same spot they once shared with him (granted Kobe finally got it done with Pau, Odom, and Ariza).[/QUOTE]
Wade was very much a "known" player when he was at Marquette.
[quote name='lordopus99']Yes Rondo has more people to pass to but let's not forget that the Bulls also have some capable shooters (Hinrich, Deng, Miller). Yes at times they can get streaky but so can Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. If you put anyone else at guard for Boston, you wouldn't get the same result. When Rondo came into the league, I personally thought he would be a bust since he stunk it up at Kentucky. But the one thing stats can't show is how much of a defensive presense he is. That is where I think he makes the difference compared to Rose.[/QUOTE]
Rondo was very good at Kentucky.
BigSpoonyBard
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[quote name='lordopus99']
As for your listing, Shaq in his hayday was the most dominant player. Nobody could stop him one-on-one. He was like Jordan in the fact he made everyone around him better. He took Kobe from being unknown to a third time champion. He took an unknown Marquette player to an NBA Champion. Both players have struggled to get back to the same spot they once shared with him (granted Kobe finally got it done with Pau, Odom, and Ariza).[/QUOTE]
Ah yes, the "unknown" Kobe Bryant who was so under the radar he took Brandy to his senior prom, was a lottery pick out of high school, and an all-star starter his second year.
And let's not forget that darn unknown #5 overall draft pick. He was vastly overshadowed by the extreme known-ness of Darko Milicic, who was also clearly more known than Chris Bosh and Carmelo Anthony.
In what world to you live that these guys were "unknown"?
As for your listing, Shaq in his hayday was the most dominant player. Nobody could stop him one-on-one. He was like Jordan in the fact he made everyone around him better. He took Kobe from being unknown to a third time champion. He took an unknown Marquette player to an NBA Champion. Both players have struggled to get back to the same spot they once shared with him (granted Kobe finally got it done with Pau, Odom, and Ariza).[/QUOTE]
Ah yes, the "unknown" Kobe Bryant who was so under the radar he took Brandy to his senior prom, was a lottery pick out of high school, and an all-star starter his second year.
And let's not forget that darn unknown #5 overall draft pick. He was vastly overshadowed by the extreme known-ness of Darko Milicic, who was also clearly more known than Chris Bosh and Carmelo Anthony.
In what world to you live that these guys were "unknown"?
Feeding the Abscess
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[quote name='J7.']Well, if you want to really look at the stats then here is a real comparison:
Rose
FG% 101% - improvement
3pt% 110% - improvement
FT% 98% - worse
RPG -------- same
APG 96.8% - worse
SPG 87.5% - worse
BPG -------- same
TO 108% - worse
PPG 110% - improvement
- Minimal improvement to FG%, decent improvement to 3PT%, decent improvement to PPG.
- Worse FT%, Assists, Steals, turnovers.
Rondo
FG% 104% - improvement
3pt% 88.8% - worse
FT% 98.6% - worse
RPG -------- same
APG 144% - improvement
SPG 126% - improvement
BPG -------- same
TO 135% - worse
PPG 128% - improvement
- Decent improvement to FG%, huge improvement in Assists and Steals, considerable improvement to PPG.
- Worse at 3pt% which can be a streaky stat, worse FT%, considerably more turnovers.
Next I'll compare %'s between Rose and Rondo.[/QUOTE]
Use per possession stats when comparing players - it creates a better template for comparing players from different teams/systems than per game or raw total stats. For point guards, use stats like assist rate; true shooting %; turnover rate; etc. Also, a comparison of one season's per game stats (I think that's what you used) against a career average (see last parenthetical remark) can be rather wonkish. As a quick run through, I'll show you why:
Rondo posted 5.2 rebounds last season, with a rebound rate of 9.6%. This season, in nearly three more minutes per game, he's snared 4.4, at a rate of 7.4%. His career average is 4.4 per game, but his career rebound rate is 8.6%. So, in a fair comparison in relation to his career rate as well as last season, he's regressed this season in rebounding. The reason why his per game numbers from this season in comparison to his career is that he's played many more minutes per game this year (36.8) than he has for his entire career (30.8).
While his assist rate has improved (from 39.7 last season to 43.5 this season), his true shooting percentage is unchanged (.543 both seasons), and his points produced per 100 possessions has gone down, thanks to fewer offensive rebounds and FTA per minute and a slight drop in FT% (not that I really consider offensive rebounds important to PGs, mind you, so consider him to be just slightly less impressive than he was last season - closer than his ORtg would lead you to believe).
To end this post slightly concisely, Rose has slightly improved in some areas, namely in TS%, FTA, assist rate, and turnover rate. Not enough to approach or surpass Rondo, but he is a bit closer now than he was last season. Of course, when you consider defense, the gap is still pretty wide.
Rose
FG% 101% - improvement
3pt% 110% - improvement
FT% 98% - worse
RPG -------- same
APG 96.8% - worse
SPG 87.5% - worse
BPG -------- same
TO 108% - worse
PPG 110% - improvement
- Minimal improvement to FG%, decent improvement to 3PT%, decent improvement to PPG.
- Worse FT%, Assists, Steals, turnovers.
Rondo
FG% 104% - improvement
3pt% 88.8% - worse
FT% 98.6% - worse
RPG -------- same
APG 144% - improvement
SPG 126% - improvement
BPG -------- same
TO 135% - worse
PPG 128% - improvement
- Decent improvement to FG%, huge improvement in Assists and Steals, considerable improvement to PPG.
- Worse at 3pt% which can be a streaky stat, worse FT%, considerably more turnovers.
Next I'll compare %'s between Rose and Rondo.[/QUOTE]
Use per possession stats when comparing players - it creates a better template for comparing players from different teams/systems than per game or raw total stats. For point guards, use stats like assist rate; true shooting %; turnover rate; etc. Also, a comparison of one season's per game stats (I think that's what you used) against a career average (see last parenthetical remark) can be rather wonkish. As a quick run through, I'll show you why:
Rondo posted 5.2 rebounds last season, with a rebound rate of 9.6%. This season, in nearly three more minutes per game, he's snared 4.4, at a rate of 7.4%. His career average is 4.4 per game, but his career rebound rate is 8.6%. So, in a fair comparison in relation to his career rate as well as last season, he's regressed this season in rebounding. The reason why his per game numbers from this season in comparison to his career is that he's played many more minutes per game this year (36.8) than he has for his entire career (30.8).
While his assist rate has improved (from 39.7 last season to 43.5 this season), his true shooting percentage is unchanged (.543 both seasons), and his points produced per 100 possessions has gone down, thanks to fewer offensive rebounds and FTA per minute and a slight drop in FT% (not that I really consider offensive rebounds important to PGs, mind you, so consider him to be just slightly less impressive than he was last season - closer than his ORtg would lead you to believe).
To end this post slightly concisely, Rose has slightly improved in some areas, namely in TS%, FTA, assist rate, and turnover rate. Not enough to approach or surpass Rondo, but he is a bit closer now than he was last season. Of course, when you consider defense, the gap is still pretty wide.
lordopus99
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[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']Ah yes, the "unknown" Kobe Bryant who was so under the radar he took Brandy to his senior prom, was a lottery pick out of high school, and an all-star starter his second year.
And let's not forget that darn unknown #5 overall draft pick. He was vastly overshadowed by the extreme known-ness of Darko Milicic, who was also clearly more known than Chris Bosh and Carmelo Anthony.
In what world to you live that these guys were "unknown"?[/QUOTE]
Yes he was known from the high school hype but before Kobe showed up all High Schoolers (minus Shawn Kemp) all ended up being busts. My whole point is/was these players haven't played to the same level than they did when they played with Shaq (another player I forgot to add to his list of players he made better was Penny Hardaway). Even after there were alot of overhyped high schoolers that turned out to be busts i.e. Kwamye Brown, etc.
[quote name='life.exe']
Rondo was very good at Kentucky. [/QUOTE]
Don't know if you watch the same kentucky team I watch. I watched him getting burned on defense due to him being undersized and always trying for steals. Freshmen year when they had a bunch of players (Azibuke and Hayes), he didn't fair offensely (avg 3 assists to 2 turnovers in 25 min). Sophomore year (he left after this year), the numbers were better but the team had more losses than previous years and were unranked going into the tourney. He was only third team AP All-SEC. Their season also signaled the end of the Tubby Smith era at UK, in which the boosters/students asked him to resigned (he later did in 2007).
And let's not forget that darn unknown #5 overall draft pick. He was vastly overshadowed by the extreme known-ness of Darko Milicic, who was also clearly more known than Chris Bosh and Carmelo Anthony.
In what world to you live that these guys were "unknown"?[/QUOTE]
Yes he was known from the high school hype but before Kobe showed up all High Schoolers (minus Shawn Kemp) all ended up being busts. My whole point is/was these players haven't played to the same level than they did when they played with Shaq (another player I forgot to add to his list of players he made better was Penny Hardaway). Even after there were alot of overhyped high schoolers that turned out to be busts i.e. Kwamye Brown, etc.
[quote name='life.exe']
Rondo was very good at Kentucky. [/QUOTE]
Don't know if you watch the same kentucky team I watch. I watched him getting burned on defense due to him being undersized and always trying for steals. Freshmen year when they had a bunch of players (Azibuke and Hayes), he didn't fair offensely (avg 3 assists to 2 turnovers in 25 min). Sophomore year (he left after this year), the numbers were better but the team had more losses than previous years and were unranked going into the tourney. He was only third team AP All-SEC. Their season also signaled the end of the Tubby Smith era at UK, in which the boosters/students asked him to resigned (he later did in 2007).
[quote name='Drclaw411']Not so fast. The Lakers have been fine this year when Kobe sits.[/QUOTE]
It's not a 100% lock, but the Magic are at full strength and up a game with 2 to play. They play @Indiana tonight and then have Philly at home.
The Lakers are without Kobe and and play the Kings and the Clippers.
So pretty easy games for both teams. I think the Magic win both (which clinches it regardless of the Lakers) so it's pretty moot anyway.
It's not a 100% lock, but the Magic are at full strength and up a game with 2 to play. They play @Indiana tonight and then have Philly at home.
The Lakers are without Kobe and and play the Kings and the Clippers.
So pretty easy games for both teams. I think the Magic win both (which clinches it regardless of the Lakers) so it's pretty moot anyway.
Matt Young
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Well, the Lakers have been losing with Kobe in the lineup. They've dropped 5 of their last 7. But I do agree that they can beat the Kings and the Clippers.
Soodmeg
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Wow, what the hell happened in this thread since I have been gone.
Why is there a Rose vs Rondo discussion? Its not like either one of them is a superstar yet, both are above average PGs in a conference of really shitty point guards anyway. I think its way to early for a true comparison, right now they are both basically the same player with only a slight difference.
Now, what I want to know is how there isnt more talk about the biggest bust in NBA history since Sam Bowe over Jordan. The Trailblazers should killed for failing on drafting Kevin Durant. Greg Oden has been nothing but a complete and utter disappointment since the second me was drafted. Only guy to foul out in a summer league game....you get like 10 fouls in the summer league!
Kevin Durant deserves MVP hands down. This is like that year CP3 got screwed out of the MVP (although Kobe deserves one....just not that year). There needs to be more KD talk.
Why is there a Rose vs Rondo discussion? Its not like either one of them is a superstar yet, both are above average PGs in a conference of really shitty point guards anyway. I think its way to early for a true comparison, right now they are both basically the same player with only a slight difference.
Now, what I want to know is how there isnt more talk about the biggest bust in NBA history since Sam Bowe over Jordan. The Trailblazers should killed for failing on drafting Kevin Durant. Greg Oden has been nothing but a complete and utter disappointment since the second me was drafted. Only guy to foul out in a summer league game....you get like 10 fouls in the summer league!
Kevin Durant deserves MVP hands down. This is like that year CP3 got screwed out of the MVP (although Kobe deserves one....just not that year). There needs to be more KD talk.
Oden was playing ok before getting hurt again this year.
Definitely a bust so far. But hindsight is 20/20. It's hard to turn down drafting skilled size as there are so few decent true centers in the game today, so I can't bash them too much for going with Oden over Durant.
If Oden had been able to stay healthy, it might not look like such a poor move.
Definitely a bust so far. But hindsight is 20/20. It's hard to turn down drafting skilled size as there are so few decent true centers in the game today, so I can't bash them too much for going with Oden over Durant.
If Oden had been able to stay healthy, it might not look like such a poor move.
Soodmeg
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I can because everyone in a real NBA position said to draft Durant. I will have to check but I dont remember that many people saying Oden was that much better.
It reminds me of a quote Bobby Knight said when the GM (cant remember his name) of the blazers asked his advice on drafting.
"Bobby, who should I draft?"
"Michael Jordon."
"But we really need a PF."
"Well, Draft Jordon and have him play PF."
A bust is nothing but hindsight though. You cant call someone a bust until they have failed and Oden has failed so badly. I am still not convinced that a healthy Oden is even a top 15 center in a league with only a few true centers.
KD should win MVP because he and Westbrook are the entire Thunder team. Talk about carrying a team.
It reminds me of a quote Bobby Knight said when the GM (cant remember his name) of the blazers asked his advice on drafting.
"Bobby, who should I draft?"
"Michael Jordon."
"But we really need a PF."
"Well, Draft Jordon and have him play PF."
A bust is nothing but hindsight though. You cant call someone a bust until they have failed and Oden has failed so badly. I am still not convinced that a healthy Oden is even a top 15 center in a league with only a few true centers.
KD should win MVP because he and Westbrook are the entire Thunder team. Talk about carrying a team.
Feeding the Abscess
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Jordan, man. Jordan.
Durant's awesome, and has been electric offensively (higher true shooting % and ORtg than Kobe or McGrady have ever put up in any season of their careers), but LeBron is objectively the MVP again this season. By a wide margin.
It's going to be awesome watching Durant score 30+ a game for the next ten years while flirting with 50/40/90 FG/3PT/FT percentages, though.
And Oden is certainly a top 15 center when healthy. He was top 3 this season before he was hurt. He rebounds like Dwight Howard, blocks shots at a Marcus Camby circa 2004-07 level, shot 77% from the FT line this season, and is 22 years old and has played a total of 82 NBA games. Portland is a title contender with a healthy Greg Oden.
Durant's awesome, and has been electric offensively (higher true shooting % and ORtg than Kobe or McGrady have ever put up in any season of their careers), but LeBron is objectively the MVP again this season. By a wide margin.
It's going to be awesome watching Durant score 30+ a game for the next ten years while flirting with 50/40/90 FG/3PT/FT percentages, though.
And Oden is certainly a top 15 center when healthy. He was top 3 this season before he was hurt. He rebounds like Dwight Howard, blocks shots at a Marcus Camby circa 2004-07 level, shot 77% from the FT line this season, and is 22 years old and has played a total of 82 NBA games. Portland is a title contender with a healthy Greg Oden.
[quote name='Soodmeg'] I am still not convinced that a healthy Oden is even a top 15 center in a league with only a few true centers.[/QUOTE]
When he is actually healthy and gets minutes (ie stays out of foul trouble), he's an incredibly proficient rebounder on both ends. His size and above average athleticism for a center allows him to be a very dominant shot blocker. Combined with his at the top FG% and ridiculous FT% as a big man, yeah, he would easily be a top 15 center.
Better centers would pretty be more offensively minded centers. His problems are his complete lack of sense on offense and always fouling.
When he is actually healthy and gets minutes (ie stays out of foul trouble), he's an incredibly proficient rebounder on both ends. His size and above average athleticism for a center allows him to be a very dominant shot blocker. Combined with his at the top FG% and ridiculous FT% as a big man, yeah, he would easily be a top 15 center.
Better centers would pretty be more offensively minded centers. His problems are his complete lack of sense on offense and always fouling.
CaseyRyback
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[quote name='lordopus99']Yes he was known from the high school hype but before Kobe showed up all High Schoolers (minus Shawn Kemp) all ended up being busts. My whole point is/was these players haven't played to the same level than they did when they played with Shaq (another player I forgot to add to his list of players he made better was Penny Hardaway). Even after there were alot of overhyped high schoolers that turned out to be busts i.e. Kwamye Brown, etc.
[/QUOTE]
Kevin Garnett got drafted the year before Bryant.
Penny Hardaway suffered a horrible leg injury that he never recovered from.
[/QUOTE]
Kevin Garnett got drafted the year before Bryant.
Penny Hardaway suffered a horrible leg injury that he never recovered from.
BigSpoonyBard
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[quote name='Soodmeg']I can because everyone in a real NBA position said to draft Durant. I will have to check but I dont remember that many people saying Oden was that much better.
It reminds me of a quote Bobby Knight said when the GM (cant remember his name) of the blazers asked his advice on drafting.
"Bobby, who should I draft?"
"Michael Jordon."
"But we really need a PF."
"Well, Draft Jordon and have him play PF."
A bust is nothing but hindsight though. You cant call someone a bust until they have failed and Oden has failed so badly. I am still not convinced that a healthy Oden is even a top 15 center in a league with only a few true centers.
KD should win MVP because he and Westbrook are the entire Thunder team. Talk about carrying a team.[/QUOTE]
Come on, no one knew Jordan was going to be Jordan (and that the refs would progressively bend the rules so he could be Jordan) when he was drafted. Sam Bowie had plenty of ability; his problem was injuries, beginning in college.
A healthy Oden is easily a top 10 center with good rebounding and defense. Combine that with Roy, Aldridge, an under-rated Andre Miller, along with the extensive depth the Blazers have, and you've got a very good team. You simply can't predict how a guy's body is going to handle the stress of playing ball. It's easy to say it was the wrong choice now, but it's also easy to see what the Blazers envisioned, and it's hard to fault them for that.
Mind you, I'm saying this as a pretty big Durant fan, too. And I must admit, I love the team the Thunder have built.
It reminds me of a quote Bobby Knight said when the GM (cant remember his name) of the blazers asked his advice on drafting.
"Bobby, who should I draft?"
"Michael Jordon."
"But we really need a PF."
"Well, Draft Jordon and have him play PF."
A bust is nothing but hindsight though. You cant call someone a bust until they have failed and Oden has failed so badly. I am still not convinced that a healthy Oden is even a top 15 center in a league with only a few true centers.
KD should win MVP because he and Westbrook are the entire Thunder team. Talk about carrying a team.[/QUOTE]
Come on, no one knew Jordan was going to be Jordan (and that the refs would progressively bend the rules so he could be Jordan) when he was drafted. Sam Bowie had plenty of ability; his problem was injuries, beginning in college.
A healthy Oden is easily a top 10 center with good rebounding and defense. Combine that with Roy, Aldridge, an under-rated Andre Miller, along with the extensive depth the Blazers have, and you've got a very good team. You simply can't predict how a guy's body is going to handle the stress of playing ball. It's easy to say it was the wrong choice now, but it's also easy to see what the Blazers envisioned, and it's hard to fault them for that.
Mind you, I'm saying this as a pretty big Durant fan, too. And I must admit, I love the team the Thunder have built.
BigSpoonyBard
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[quote name='Drclaw411']
2. Raptors blew out the Pistons. Bulls need to win out now.[/QUOTE]
Joe Dumars: Can we all recognize he's a shitty GM now?
2. Raptors blew out the Pistons. Bulls need to win out now.[/QUOTE]
Joe Dumars: Can we all recognize he's a shitty GM now?
Soodmeg
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I dont know why I kept typing Jordon instead of Jordan.
Anyway, I think you guys are vastly over rating Oden. When you look at Oden even healthy he does not have the physically gifts like a D-Howard. He doesnt have the movement and explosiveness of a Amare, he damn sure has nothing on the best Center in the league in Yao Ming. Ming has the best footwork of a 7fter not named Dirk and the only person in that category in a pure center standpoint.
Why are you guys so impressed by his sub par numbers?
Through his first 61 games he average 9 points 7 rebounds and one block. Through his next season averaged 11 points 8 rebounds and 3 blocks. Although he does shoot a crazy high percentage because I think it at around 77 or so. Shawn Bradley average about these numbers also.
A fully healthy Oden is pretty damn average. What the hell are you guys looking at? The staples of a all star big man is 15/10 the staples for a superstar big man is 20/10.
At no point did Oden even come close to reaching these numbers even with his second year burst. Oden is/was nothing more than a average center with above average blocking ability who consistently stays in foul trouble and is now injury prone.
Pfft, 7ft tall you should its a given that you at least get 5 points - 5 rebounds as a starter. Hell even The Kandi Man averaged 9 points 8 rebounds during his career. I know its slightly unfair because he hasnt had a chance to play that much but still...they wasted a pick on him so you have to take the good and the bad.
I watched Oden a lot because I foolish thought Oden deserved to be the first pick...but I know when to admit I was completely wrong.
Anyway, I think you guys are vastly over rating Oden. When you look at Oden even healthy he does not have the physically gifts like a D-Howard. He doesnt have the movement and explosiveness of a Amare, he damn sure has nothing on the best Center in the league in Yao Ming. Ming has the best footwork of a 7fter not named Dirk and the only person in that category in a pure center standpoint.
Why are you guys so impressed by his sub par numbers?
Through his first 61 games he average 9 points 7 rebounds and one block. Through his next season averaged 11 points 8 rebounds and 3 blocks. Although he does shoot a crazy high percentage because I think it at around 77 or so. Shawn Bradley average about these numbers also.
A fully healthy Oden is pretty damn average. What the hell are you guys looking at? The staples of a all star big man is 15/10 the staples for a superstar big man is 20/10.
At no point did Oden even come close to reaching these numbers even with his second year burst. Oden is/was nothing more than a average center with above average blocking ability who consistently stays in foul trouble and is now injury prone.
Pfft, 7ft tall you should its a given that you at least get 5 points - 5 rebounds as a starter. Hell even The Kandi Man averaged 9 points 8 rebounds during his career. I know its slightly unfair because he hasnt had a chance to play that much but still...they wasted a pick on him so you have to take the good and the bad.
I watched Oden a lot because I foolish thought Oden deserved to be the first pick...but I know when to admit I was completely wrong.
thamaster24
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Just for resolving this issue, let's say the Trailblazers took Durant at #1. Let's say Durant has stellar seasons like he has at SEA/OKC. Who's the alpha dog on that team Brandon Roy or KD? Both are incredible scorers but do they play together or does one have to go?
Anyone probably would've still picked Oden over Durant.
Anyone probably would've still picked Oden over Durant.
[quote name='Feeding the Abscess']Use per possession stats when comparing players - it creates a better template for comparing players from different teams/systems than per game or raw total stats. For point guards, use stats like assist rate; true shooting %; turnover rate; etc. Also, a comparison of one season's per game stats (I think that's what you used) against a career average (see last parenthetical remark) can be rather wonkish. As a quick run through, I'll show you why:
Rondo posted 5.2 rebounds last season, with a rebound rate of 9.6%. This season, in nearly three more minutes per game, he's snared 4.4, at a rate of 7.4%. His career average is 4.4 per game, but his career rebound rate is 8.6%. So, in a fair comparison in relation to his career rate as well as last season, he's regressed this season in rebounding. The reason why his per game numbers from this season in comparison to his career is that he's played many more minutes per game this year (36.8) than he has for his entire career (30.8).
While his assist rate has improved (from 39.7 last season to 43.5 this season), his true shooting percentage is unchanged (.543 both seasons), and his points produced per 100 possessions has gone down, thanks to fewer offensive rebounds and FTA per minute and a slight drop in FT% (not that I really consider offensive rebounds important to PGs, mind you, so consider him to be just slightly less impressive than he was last season - closer than his ORtg would lead you to believe).
To end this post slightly concisely, Rose has slightly improved in some areas, namely in TS%, FTA, assist rate, and turnover rate. Not enough to approach or surpass Rondo, but he is a bit closer now than he was last season. Of course, when you consider defense, the gap is still pretty wide.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't going to spend a ton of time and I don't even know where I can find those specific stats or spend more time calculating those as well. I was just giving a quick comparison. I also thought people were going to take into account the minutes per game stat that was included and realize that played a part. Just explaining where I was coming from, not trying to be rude. I think you've done an even more detailed explanation, looks good.
Rondo posted 5.2 rebounds last season, with a rebound rate of 9.6%. This season, in nearly three more minutes per game, he's snared 4.4, at a rate of 7.4%. His career average is 4.4 per game, but his career rebound rate is 8.6%. So, in a fair comparison in relation to his career rate as well as last season, he's regressed this season in rebounding. The reason why his per game numbers from this season in comparison to his career is that he's played many more minutes per game this year (36.8) than he has for his entire career (30.8).
While his assist rate has improved (from 39.7 last season to 43.5 this season), his true shooting percentage is unchanged (.543 both seasons), and his points produced per 100 possessions has gone down, thanks to fewer offensive rebounds and FTA per minute and a slight drop in FT% (not that I really consider offensive rebounds important to PGs, mind you, so consider him to be just slightly less impressive than he was last season - closer than his ORtg would lead you to believe).
To end this post slightly concisely, Rose has slightly improved in some areas, namely in TS%, FTA, assist rate, and turnover rate. Not enough to approach or surpass Rondo, but he is a bit closer now than he was last season. Of course, when you consider defense, the gap is still pretty wide.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't going to spend a ton of time and I don't even know where I can find those specific stats or spend more time calculating those as well. I was just giving a quick comparison. I also thought people were going to take into account the minutes per game stat that was included and realize that played a part. Just explaining where I was coming from, not trying to be rude. I think you've done an even more detailed explanation, looks good.
[quote name='thamaster24']Just for resolving this issue, let's say the Trailblazers took Durant at #1. Let's say Durant has stellar seasons like he has at SEA/OKC. Who's the alpha dog on that team Brandon Roy or KD? Both are incredible scorers but do they play together or does one have to go?
Anyone probably would've still picked Oden over Durant.[/QUOTE]
I dunno I can see Roy for the most part putting himself second but he seems to me to be the type of guy who wants that final shot. He would have to be the one to go though if they couldn't coexist he is an all star/3rd team NBA talent while Durant has All NBA talent
Anyone probably would've still picked Oden over Durant.[/QUOTE]
I dunno I can see Roy for the most part putting himself second but he seems to me to be the type of guy who wants that final shot. He would have to be the one to go though if they couldn't coexist he is an all star/3rd team NBA talent while Durant has All NBA talent
I think the thing with Oden was the fact he had that broken hand or wrist in college and everybody attributed that for his ugly offensive game. The dude has no feel for the post game if he had the footwork or guile of an Al Jefferson he would be unstoppable. I think the sportsguy sums him up well here http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3683493
[quote name='Drclaw411']I think the worst call situation i've ever seen was last year in the Bulls-Celtics playoff series. Game 5 in the closing seconds, Brad Miller has a clear lane .[/QUOTE]
Byron Russell called in he would like to include a certain push off by a certain great one to this list.
Byron Russell called in he would like to include a certain push off by a certain great one to this list.
Feeding the Abscess
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[quote name='jlarlee']Byron Russell called in he would like to include a certain push off by a certain great one to this list.[/QUOTE]
Russell was already crossed and falling by the time Jordan put his hand into him. If Jordan were able to move Russell that far and in that manner with one hand while moving the opposite direction, he's one of the two or three strongest human beings the earth has ever witnessed.
Anyway.
J7:
www.basketball-reference.com is a great site for all sorts of basketball stats. www.82games.com is also awesome.
soodmeg:
You're focusing on raw stat totals/per game averages, which can be extremely misleading. Here are Oden's rate statistics from this season (as well as his career rates), in comparison to some elite company (09-10 numbers are on the left, career numbers in the middle, comparison player's career best rate on the right, in a __ : __ : __ format):
Offensive Rebound % (comparison - Dwight Howard, 2008-09):
15.6 : 15.7 : 13.8
Defensive Rebound % (comparison - Dwight Howard, 2007-08):
28.3 : 25.5 : 31.6
Total Rebound % (comparison - Dwight Howard, 2009-10):
21.9 : 20.5 : 21.9
As you can see, Oden compares pretty well to Howard in regards to rebounding. D12's career TRB% is 20.7%, which is nearly identical to Oden's rate of 20.5%. For historical reference, David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon had career rates of 17.3% and 17.2%, respectively. Tim Duncan has put up an 18.5% clip.
Block % (comparison - Marcus Camby, 1997-98)
7.6 : 5.1 : 7.9
Oden's block % was only 4.6% as a rookie, when he was clearly limited by excess weight and lack of strength in his knee. He had more mobility this season, and put up a block % that surpasses anything Dwight Howard (highest rate: 5.9), David Robinson (7.4), Tim Duncan (5.7), and Hakeem Olajuwon (7.0) have ever produced. Dikembe Mutombo's best percentages were 8.8(!), 7.5, 7.4, and 7.0. Marcus Camby put up seasons of 7.5, 7.4, and 7.3 while with the Nuggets, in addition to his 7.9 rate in 97-98 with the Raptors.
Guys who aren't awesome at basketball don't put up numbers in positionally important statistical categories that rival or surpass the stats put up by some of the greatest players/most prolific producers to play the game at their same position.
As for your other assertion, here are Oden's per 36 minutes numbers:
60.5 FG% on 10.9 FGA
.766 FT% on 4.6 FTA
4.6 ORPG
8.2 DRPG
12.8 RPG
3.4 BLK
16.7 PPG
Keep in mind that he plays for the slowest-paced team in the NBA, a team that uses 4 fewer possessions per game than the snail-paced Spurs. Howard has 09-10 per 36 numbers of 19.1 PPG, 13.7 RPG, 2.9 BLK with 61.0 FG%. If I were to adjust Oden's per 36 minute stats upward to match the amount of possessions in which Howard plays per 36, here is what Oden would have averaged per 36 this season:
17.5 PPG
13.4 RPG
3.6 BLK
60.5 FG%
The issue isn't whether Greg Oden can play basketball. He's elite when he's on the court. The issue is whether he can stay healthy and out of foul trouble.
Russell was already crossed and falling by the time Jordan put his hand into him. If Jordan were able to move Russell that far and in that manner with one hand while moving the opposite direction, he's one of the two or three strongest human beings the earth has ever witnessed.
Anyway.
J7:
www.basketball-reference.com is a great site for all sorts of basketball stats. www.82games.com is also awesome.
soodmeg:
You're focusing on raw stat totals/per game averages, which can be extremely misleading. Here are Oden's rate statistics from this season (as well as his career rates), in comparison to some elite company (09-10 numbers are on the left, career numbers in the middle, comparison player's career best rate on the right, in a __ : __ : __ format):
Offensive Rebound % (comparison - Dwight Howard, 2008-09):
15.6 : 15.7 : 13.8
Defensive Rebound % (comparison - Dwight Howard, 2007-08):
28.3 : 25.5 : 31.6
Total Rebound % (comparison - Dwight Howard, 2009-10):
21.9 : 20.5 : 21.9
As you can see, Oden compares pretty well to Howard in regards to rebounding. D12's career TRB% is 20.7%, which is nearly identical to Oden's rate of 20.5%. For historical reference, David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon had career rates of 17.3% and 17.2%, respectively. Tim Duncan has put up an 18.5% clip.
Block % (comparison - Marcus Camby, 1997-98)
7.6 : 5.1 : 7.9
Oden's block % was only 4.6% as a rookie, when he was clearly limited by excess weight and lack of strength in his knee. He had more mobility this season, and put up a block % that surpasses anything Dwight Howard (highest rate: 5.9), David Robinson (7.4), Tim Duncan (5.7), and Hakeem Olajuwon (7.0) have ever produced. Dikembe Mutombo's best percentages were 8.8(!), 7.5, 7.4, and 7.0. Marcus Camby put up seasons of 7.5, 7.4, and 7.3 while with the Nuggets, in addition to his 7.9 rate in 97-98 with the Raptors.
Guys who aren't awesome at basketball don't put up numbers in positionally important statistical categories that rival or surpass the stats put up by some of the greatest players/most prolific producers to play the game at their same position.
As for your other assertion, here are Oden's per 36 minutes numbers:
60.5 FG% on 10.9 FGA
.766 FT% on 4.6 FTA
4.6 ORPG
8.2 DRPG
12.8 RPG
3.4 BLK
16.7 PPG
Keep in mind that he plays for the slowest-paced team in the NBA, a team that uses 4 fewer possessions per game than the snail-paced Spurs. Howard has 09-10 per 36 numbers of 19.1 PPG, 13.7 RPG, 2.9 BLK with 61.0 FG%. If I were to adjust Oden's per 36 minute stats upward to match the amount of possessions in which Howard plays per 36, here is what Oden would have averaged per 36 this season:
17.5 PPG
13.4 RPG
3.6 BLK
60.5 FG%
The issue isn't whether Greg Oden can play basketball. He's elite when he's on the court. The issue is whether he can stay healthy and out of foul trouble.
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lordopus99
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[quote name='CaseyRyback']Kevin Garnett got drafted the year before Bryant.
Penny Hardaway suffered a horrible leg injury that he never recovered from.[/QUOTE]
My bad on the miss with KG. As for Penny, it is all excuses, just like Tracy McGrady's "Back"... look... Antonio McDyess had a way worst knee injury than Penny to his leg (Patellar tendon rupture) and he was able to come back (yes not to the level he entered the league, but still good to a top reserve). Some other injury plagued players that have got over their injuries include Lamar Odom, Marcus Camby, etc.
As for the Greg Oden talk...
Greg Oden is easily a top 5-7 center when healthy. Here is a typical stat line when healthy and not in foul trouble (something he would get over if he stayed healthy): 13 pts, 10 boards, 3 blocks in only 28 minutes. For the amount of minutes he averages (23), it is pretty good. Some other top Centers averages to consider... Howard (34), Ming (33 - last year), Jefferson (32), Amare (34), Duncan (31)... you get the picture... the more minutes you play the better your stats get...all these guys average almost 10 minutes more per game. For the trailblazers, he was and still is a perfect fit. They needed a Center and he filled that void.
For the Greg Oden vs Kevin Durant numbers talk...
The one thing that you need to factor into this is that Durant averages almost double the amount of playing time (39 minutes/game)... of course his numbers are going to be better.
Penny Hardaway suffered a horrible leg injury that he never recovered from.[/QUOTE]
My bad on the miss with KG. As for Penny, it is all excuses, just like Tracy McGrady's "Back"... look... Antonio McDyess had a way worst knee injury than Penny to his leg (Patellar tendon rupture) and he was able to come back (yes not to the level he entered the league, but still good to a top reserve). Some other injury plagued players that have got over their injuries include Lamar Odom, Marcus Camby, etc.
As for the Greg Oden talk...
Greg Oden is easily a top 5-7 center when healthy. Here is a typical stat line when healthy and not in foul trouble (something he would get over if he stayed healthy): 13 pts, 10 boards, 3 blocks in only 28 minutes. For the amount of minutes he averages (23), it is pretty good. Some other top Centers averages to consider... Howard (34), Ming (33 - last year), Jefferson (32), Amare (34), Duncan (31)... you get the picture... the more minutes you play the better your stats get...all these guys average almost 10 minutes more per game. For the trailblazers, he was and still is a perfect fit. They needed a Center and he filled that void.
For the Greg Oden vs Kevin Durant numbers talk...
The one thing that you need to factor into this is that Durant averages almost double the amount of playing time (39 minutes/game)... of course his numbers are going to be better.
It's not just excuses. Penny re-injured his knee a few times when making Comebacks. He had some ok years with Phoenix after the injury, but was older and just not himself and had further setbacks.
McDyess was fortunate to get back from his knee injury and not have further set backs in terms of major re-injuries etc. so he's been able to be a solid reserve/role player.
McDyess was fortunate to get back from his knee injury and not have further set backs in terms of major re-injuries etc. so he's been able to be a solid reserve/role player.
Soodmeg
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You guys are insane if you think Oden is a 
ing top 5 center. He is not even the 5th best player on his own team...hell depending on who you ask he is not even the best Center on the damn Blazers. Aldridge, Camby, Howard (is a stretch but still solid, christ will he ever retire?).
Again, 15/10 is a MUST for a all star big man 20/15-20 is a super star
Oden played so little minutes because he was constantly in foul trouble. He yes the more minutes you play the more potential your stats have but you also have to understand that it gives him more chances to miss shots and look worse. I guess I dont give has much credit for a 7 footer who starts getting put back dunks and lay ups. If you are not going to have a offense of any kind you need to be a Ben Wallace prototype getting 15 rebounds and 3-5 blocks a game.
Anyway, we seem to be in a stale mate for the oden deal so lets have the final say and move on.
I saw a disgusting stat this morning. The bulls at a 8th seed being a mind boggling 21 games back! Jesus is the East the worst conference in all of sports? They constantly have teams with losing records entering the play offs. Why do you think that is? How is it possiable that the east is simply so bad all the time? Is the West teams simply that much better?
ing top 5 center. He is not even the 5th best player on his own team...hell depending on who you ask he is not even the best Center on the damn Blazers. Aldridge, Camby, Howard (is a stretch but still solid, christ will he ever retire?). Again, 15/10 is a MUST for a all star big man 20/15-20 is a super star
Oden played so little minutes because he was constantly in foul trouble. He yes the more minutes you play the more potential your stats have but you also have to understand that it gives him more chances to miss shots and look worse. I guess I dont give has much credit for a 7 footer who starts getting put back dunks and lay ups. If you are not going to have a offense of any kind you need to be a Ben Wallace prototype getting 15 rebounds and 3-5 blocks a game.
Anyway, we seem to be in a stale mate for the oden deal so lets have the final say and move on.
I saw a disgusting stat this morning. The bulls at a 8th seed being a mind boggling 21 games back! Jesus is the East the worst conference in all of sports? They constantly have teams with losing records entering the play offs. Why do you think that is? How is it possiable that the east is simply so bad all the time? Is the West teams simply that much better?
[quote name='Soodmeg']You guys are insane if you think Oden is a ing top 5 center. He is not even the 5th best player on his own team...hell depending on who you ask he is not even the best Center on the damn Blazers. Aldridge, Camby, Howard (is a stretch but still solid, christ will he ever retire?).
Again, 15/10 is a MUST for a all star big man 20/15-20 is a super star.
Anyway, we seem to be in a stale mate for the oden deal so lets have the final say and move on.[/QUOTE]
There's no stale mate, you're just being ridiculous and you want to end the conversation so people will stop showing you how foolish you are.
Aldridge is a terrible center when he plays that position. He's mostly a PF that likes to play like a SF. Camby is an aging center with a history of injuries. He can still play on his contract year, but for how much longer? He was only an acquisition because both Pryzbilla and Oden were out. Howard isn't really worth talking about at this point in his career. So when Camby leaves, who is going to be their best big man? Oden.
No one is saying that Oden is currently an All-star center. No one is saying he is a top - 5 center at this point. Could he be later on his career? Maybe. If he can actually play 35 mpg and learn offense, there is a strong possibility but it's definitely not certain.
You do know that Jamaal Magloire and Ilgauskas has both been All-Star centers without 15/10? So no, 15/10 is not a must for an All-Star big man and no one currently averages "20/15-20." If you're talking about 20/10, there's only 2 players who averages 20/10 - David Lee and Chris Bosh and arguably (Because neither has seen real playoff success) neither of those guys are superstars. There are plenty of big men without 20/10 that are superstars like Pau, Duncan, and Dirk. Hell, even KG's not even close and he's still a superstar. Both your criteria for All-star and superstar big men fail.
ing top 5 center. He is not even the 5th best player on his own team...hell depending on who you ask he is not even the best Center on the damn Blazers. Aldridge, Camby, Howard (is a stretch but still solid, christ will he ever retire?). Again, 15/10 is a MUST for a all star big man 20/15-20 is a super star.
Anyway, we seem to be in a stale mate for the oden deal so lets have the final say and move on.[/QUOTE]
There's no stale mate, you're just being ridiculous and you want to end the conversation so people will stop showing you how foolish you are.
Aldridge is a terrible center when he plays that position. He's mostly a PF that likes to play like a SF. Camby is an aging center with a history of injuries. He can still play on his contract year, but for how much longer? He was only an acquisition because both Pryzbilla and Oden were out. Howard isn't really worth talking about at this point in his career. So when Camby leaves, who is going to be their best big man? Oden.
No one is saying that Oden is currently an All-star center. No one is saying he is a top - 5 center at this point. Could he be later on his career? Maybe. If he can actually play 35 mpg and learn offense, there is a strong possibility but it's definitely not certain.
You do know that Jamaal Magloire and Ilgauskas has both been All-Star centers without 15/10? So no, 15/10 is not a must for an All-Star big man and no one currently averages "20/15-20." If you're talking about 20/10, there's only 2 players who averages 20/10 - David Lee and Chris Bosh and arguably (Because neither has seen real playoff success) neither of those guys are superstars. There are plenty of big men without 20/10 that are superstars like Pau, Duncan, and Dirk. Hell, even KG's not even close and he's still a superstar. Both your criteria for All-star and superstar big men fail.
ph33r m3
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Not everyone would've taken Oden over Durant.
Like this guy.
Went to an AAU Summer Breeze tournament in San Diego like in the Summer of 06....saw Oden on the other court....his teammate came over and we're talking about him....told me the kid has one leg SHORTER than the other....
Then and there I knew the kid had no shot.
Like this guy.
Went to an AAU Summer Breeze tournament in San Diego like in the Summer of 06....saw Oden on the other court....his teammate came over and we're talking about him....told me the kid has one leg SHORTER than the other....
Then and there I knew the kid had no shot.
Feeding the Abscess
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[quote name='Soodmeg']You guys are insane if you think Oden is a ing top 5 center. He is not even the 5th best player on his own team...hell depending on who you ask he is not even the best Center on the damn Blazers. Aldridge, Camby, Howard (is a stretch but still solid, christ will he ever retire?).
Again, 15/10 is a MUST for a all star big man 20/15-20 is a super star
Oden played so little minutes because he was constantly in foul trouble. He yes the more minutes you play the more potential your stats have but you also have to understand that it gives him more chances to miss shots and look worse. I guess I dont give has much credit for a 7 footer who starts getting put back dunks and lay ups. If you are not going to have a offense of any kind you need to be a Ben Wallace prototype getting 15 rebounds and 3-5 blocks a game.
Anyway, we seem to be in a stale mate for the oden deal so lets have the final say and move on.
I saw a disgusting stat this morning. The bulls at a 8th seed being a mind boggling 21 games back! Jesus is the East the worst conference in all of sports? They constantly have teams with losing records entering the play offs. Why do you think that is? How is it possiable that the east is simply so bad all the time? Is the West teams simply that much better?[/QUOTE]
Did you not read anything I posted? You know, the parts where Oden comes out ahead of guys like David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon in both rebounding and blocked shots, and equal to or greater than Dwight Howard in both categories? Or this comparison, pace adjusted per 36 minutes stats for Oden (left) and Howard (right):
17.5 PPG : 19.1 PPG
13.4 RPG : 13.7 RPG
3.6 BLK : 2.9 BLK
60.5 FG% : 61.0 FG%
Pretty similar, yeah?
The only issue is playing time with Greg Oden, be it because of injury or foul trouble. If he ever gets healthy (there are legitimate and obvious questions about this), he'll be worthy of being the number 1 pick. I don't think he'll necessarily have a better career than Durant, but we aren't looking at another Kandy Man here.
For what it's worth, I would have selected Durant and traded Roy to Denver for Camby, or something similar (there would likely be other pieces involved). Durant is going to flirt with 50%/40%/90% and 30 PPG for the next ten years. We're essentially looking at a more athletic Dirk Nowitzki, with the potential for insanely good help defense. Or, in other words, a potential top 5 player of all-time.
ph33r m3:
Dirk Nowitzki (not injury prone) has one leg that is shorter than the other, as does Tracy McGrady (injury prone), to give two well-known examples. It's actually fairly common for people who are tall to have that issue. Oden's case seems to be a little overblown.
ing top 5 center. He is not even the 5th best player on his own team...hell depending on who you ask he is not even the best Center on the damn Blazers. Aldridge, Camby, Howard (is a stretch but still solid, christ will he ever retire?). Again, 15/10 is a MUST for a all star big man 20/15-20 is a super star
Oden played so little minutes because he was constantly in foul trouble. He yes the more minutes you play the more potential your stats have but you also have to understand that it gives him more chances to miss shots and look worse. I guess I dont give has much credit for a 7 footer who starts getting put back dunks and lay ups. If you are not going to have a offense of any kind you need to be a Ben Wallace prototype getting 15 rebounds and 3-5 blocks a game.
Anyway, we seem to be in a stale mate for the oden deal so lets have the final say and move on.
I saw a disgusting stat this morning. The bulls at a 8th seed being a mind boggling 21 games back! Jesus is the East the worst conference in all of sports? They constantly have teams with losing records entering the play offs. Why do you think that is? How is it possiable that the east is simply so bad all the time? Is the West teams simply that much better?[/QUOTE]
Did you not read anything I posted? You know, the parts where Oden comes out ahead of guys like David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwon in both rebounding and blocked shots, and equal to or greater than Dwight Howard in both categories? Or this comparison, pace adjusted per 36 minutes stats for Oden (left) and Howard (right):
17.5 PPG : 19.1 PPG
13.4 RPG : 13.7 RPG
3.6 BLK : 2.9 BLK
60.5 FG% : 61.0 FG%
Pretty similar, yeah?
The only issue is playing time with Greg Oden, be it because of injury or foul trouble. If he ever gets healthy (there are legitimate and obvious questions about this), he'll be worthy of being the number 1 pick. I don't think he'll necessarily have a better career than Durant, but we aren't looking at another Kandy Man here.
For what it's worth, I would have selected Durant and traded Roy to Denver for Camby, or something similar (there would likely be other pieces involved). Durant is going to flirt with 50%/40%/90% and 30 PPG for the next ten years. We're essentially looking at a more athletic Dirk Nowitzki, with the potential for insanely good help defense. Or, in other words, a potential top 5 player of all-time.
ph33r m3:
Dirk Nowitzki (not injury prone) has one leg that is shorter than the other, as does Tracy McGrady (injury prone), to give two well-known examples. It's actually fairly common for people who are tall to have that issue. Oden's case seems to be a little overblown.
soulvengeance
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I think the biggest problem with comparing Oden to the other centers is that it's all based on if he could play 36 minutes a game, which he can't really due to all his injuries. Who knows if this guy will ever be healthy enough to play 36 per game.
Soodmeg
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You missed Zach Randolf.
You guys are defending Oden to much, the guy was completely average and you have to take all of it into account. You cant take away the fact that he fouls like hell (which limits his tick) and he extremely injury prone in both college and the NBA.
Too many what if when it comes to people defending Oden.
Also, my statsfor Big Men might be a little off but not by much. Its been proven that the quality of big men has drop year after year. Their are not really that many superstar big him anyway.
Damn, its too hard to go through this on a blackberry, I might have to reserve arguments for when I am actually on the computer.
You guys are defending Oden to much, the guy was completely average and you have to take all of it into account. You cant take away the fact that he fouls like hell (which limits his tick) and he extremely injury prone in both college and the NBA.
Too many what if when it comes to people defending Oden.
Also, my statsfor Big Men might be a little off but not by much. Its been proven that the quality of big men has drop year after year. Their are not really that many superstar big him anyway.
Damn, its too hard to go through this on a blackberry, I might have to reserve arguments for when I am actually on the computer.
[quote name='Soodmeg']You missed Zach Randolf.
Also, my statsfor Big Men might be a little off but not by much. Its been proven that the quality of big men has drop year after year. Their are not really that many superstar big him anyway. [/QUOTE]
Even furthering the notion that 20/10 is not a criteria for superstar big men. Zach Randolph is NOWHERE near being a superstar.
Also, my statsfor Big Men might be a little off but not by much. Its been proven that the quality of big men has drop year after year. Their are not really that many superstar big him anyway. [/QUOTE]
Even furthering the notion that 20/10 is not a criteria for superstar big men. Zach Randolph is NOWHERE near being a superstar.
BigSpoonyBard
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Randolph has always had talent to spare. It's keeping his head out of his ass that's been his problem.
Feeding the Abscess
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[quote name='docvinh']I think the biggest problem with comparing Oden to the other centers is that it's all based on if he could play 36 minutes a game, which he can't really due to all his injuries. Who knows if this guy will ever be healthy enough to play 36 per game.[/QUOTE]
Actually, the comparisons I made in regards to Oden v Dwight Howard, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Marcus Camby, and Dikembe Mutombo were all independent of playing time - I used rate stats, meaning the rate at which a player does ___ as a percentage of plays that player is on the floor. This helps create a neutral environment in which to compare players, as some players' per game stats may be depressed or inflated by relative lack of playing time, pace, or both. As an example, a guy grabbing 21% of all rebound opportunities playing for the Golden State Warriors (fastest paced team in the NBA) for 40 MPG would have a per game average much higher than a guy grabbing an equal percentage of rebounds while playing for the Spurs for 30 MPG, and if you looked at simply RPG, the hypothetical player on the Spurs (one of the slowest paced teams in the NBA) would look much more inferior than he actually is.
The only per minute comparison I made was with Dwight Howard, and that was to illustrate to those who may not understand rate stats that Oden produces at a level that is comparable to what Dwight Howard puts up. Even then, I adjusted Oden's numbers upward slightly to create a pace-neutral per minute comparison, as Portland and Orlando play at significantly different paces.
Actually, the comparisons I made in regards to Oden v Dwight Howard, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Marcus Camby, and Dikembe Mutombo were all independent of playing time - I used rate stats, meaning the rate at which a player does ___ as a percentage of plays that player is on the floor. This helps create a neutral environment in which to compare players, as some players' per game stats may be depressed or inflated by relative lack of playing time, pace, or both. As an example, a guy grabbing 21% of all rebound opportunities playing for the Golden State Warriors (fastest paced team in the NBA) for 40 MPG would have a per game average much higher than a guy grabbing an equal percentage of rebounds while playing for the Spurs for 30 MPG, and if you looked at simply RPG, the hypothetical player on the Spurs (one of the slowest paced teams in the NBA) would look much more inferior than he actually is.
The only per minute comparison I made was with Dwight Howard, and that was to illustrate to those who may not understand rate stats that Oden produces at a level that is comparable to what Dwight Howard puts up. Even then, I adjusted Oden's numbers upward slightly to create a pace-neutral per minute comparison, as Portland and Orlando play at significantly different paces.
Matt Young
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The Bulls/Celtics game was really good, but I was afraid Chicago was going to get screwed out of the game. the refs called no foul when Kirk Hinrich was shoved out of bounds, but they called a pussy foul on Rose right when they went back down the court.
Anyway, Chicago's magic number is 1. They have to win their final game, or the Raptors have to lose theirs... or both.
Anyway, Chicago's magic number is 1. They have to win their final game, or the Raptors have to lose theirs... or both.
Apparently last month, angry because Joakim Noah played 3 minutes more than what he was supposed to in a game against the Suns when he was coming back from injury, John Paxson, VP of the Chicago Bulls, stormed into head coach Vinny Del Negro's office after the players left the locker room. He grabbed Del Negro by the neck tie, and repeatedly shoved him and challenged him to a fight. Now, i'm not talking about Vinny as a coach at all. But as a fellow very important member of the Bulls organization, and a fellow gentleman, Paxson attempting to fight Del Negro should have Paxson's job. I still appreciate the 3 he hit for us against Pheonix all those years ago, but seriously this is inexcusable. You do not force player after player after payer out the door because they aren't "high character guys" (points to Jamal Crawford...JR Smith...Ben Gordon...Tyrus Thomas...Larry Hughes...Ben Wallace) then grab your head coach's necktie and try and fight him in a pussy way to try to get his contract voided. We all have our opinions of Vinny as a coach. But as a person and how he's handled the adversity and injuries this season has brought the Bulls, he has proven to be a gentleman and deserves better than shit like that. And way to ing go, John Paxson. You just made the Bulls look awesome. I sure as hope this doesnt come up when you're trying to sign Chris Bosh.
On a different topic. Everybody happen to see Rose vs Rondo tonight? Bulls won an extremley important game...let's see how they played against each other, all of you who had your respective heads in Rondo's lap lately, Rose completly outplayed Rondo in every aspect of the game tonight. Just thought youd like to know.
ing go, John Paxson. You just made the Bulls look awesome. I sure as hope this doesnt come up when you're trying to sign Chris Bosh.On a different topic. Everybody happen to see Rose vs Rondo tonight? Bulls won an extremley important game...let's see how they played against each other, all of you who had your respective heads in Rondo's lap lately, Rose completly outplayed Rondo in every aspect of the game tonight. Just thought youd like to know.
[quote name='yukine']Every analyst at the start of the season, most said they might "steal an 8th seed."[/QUOTE]
I remember them also saying the Raptors and/or Wizards would be a top 4 seed, and that the NBA title contenders were the Lakers, Cavaliers, Magic, and Spurs.
I remember them also saying the Raptors and/or Wizards would be a top 4 seed, and that the NBA title contenders were the Lakers, Cavaliers, Magic, and Spurs.
lordopus99
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[quote name='Drclaw411']Apparently last month, angry because Joakim Noah played 3 minutes more than what he was supposed to in a game against the Suns when he was coming back from injury, John Paxson, VP of the Chicago Bulls, stormed into head coach Vinny Del Negro's office after the players left the locker room. He grabbed Del Negro by the neck tie, and repeatedly shoved him and challenged him to a fight. Now, i'm not talking about Vinny as a coach at all. But as a fellow very important member of the Bulls organization, and a fellow gentleman, Paxson attempting to fight Del Negro should have Paxson's job. I still appreciate the 3 he hit for us against Pheonix all those years ago, but seriously this is inexcusable. You do not force player after player after payer out the door because they aren't "high character guys" (points to Jamal Crawford...JR Smith...Ben Gordon...Tyrus Thomas...Larry Hughes...Ben Wallace) then grab your head coach's necktie and try and fight him in a pussy way to try to get his contract voided. We all have our opinions of Vinny as a coach. But as a person and how he's handled the adversity and injuries this season has brought the Bulls, he has proven to be a gentleman and deserves better than shit like that. And way to ing go, John Paxson. You just made the Bulls look awesome. I sure as hope this doesnt come up when you're trying to sign Chris Bosh.
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LOL... you still think the bulls are in the running for an All-Star free agent... it ain't happening. Besides the atrocious management and coaching, you can add in the outspokeness of your players such as Noah trashing Lebron, who the Bulls also thought they would try for in the offseason
lol...why would they want to play for this... just because the bulls were dominate in the 90s. It has been a decade since MJ won a title for them. They have been mediocre to bad since MJ left.
ing go, John Paxson. You just made the Bulls look awesome. I sure as hope this doesnt come up when you're trying to sign Chris Bosh.[/QUOTE]
LOL... you still think the bulls are in the running for an All-Star free agent... it ain't happening. Besides the atrocious management and coaching, you can add in the outspokeness of your players such as Noah trashing Lebron, who the Bulls also thought they would try for in the offseason
lol...why would they want to play for this... just because the bulls were dominate in the 90s. It has been a decade since MJ won a title for them. They have been mediocre to bad since MJ left.- Status
bread's done