2009 Stimulus package, now with more pork. *updated! obama signs. (sad face)*

This stimulus bill will take us to about 70% debt to GDP, which I believe is a post WW2 high. It should also be mentioned that this stimulus plan DOES NOT include the additional spending that is coming up in this "TARP 2" move that is expected to be announced or introduced sometime next week.

Another interesting tidibt, Japan went through 8 stimulus plans in 8 years trying to get out of their economic spiral in the 90's and their plans actually included far more spending on actual infastrucuture than our current pork filled bill does. Today, around 20 years after that whole mess in Japan started, they are sitting with an 86% debt to GDP ratio and have yet to really experience a sizeable "rebound" since the initial crash. But we have "closely looked at the mistakes made by Japan" haven't we Washington??;)
 
[quote name='Msut77']I am fairly certain it has been pointed out to you that would only be true if you failed to adjust for inflation or include defense expenditures.

Now you are just being dishonest.[/quote]

So...we have 800+ billion from Bush, and now 900 billion from Obama (once again, assuming it passes now and not later). And I'm damn sure we'll get another one of these things in 3 months, so put in another trillion. That's 3 trillion dollars roughly (hell, we might get another one as a "Christmas Bonus").

And we're not putting the cost to run the military in this. If we were, I'd say we put in the paychecks of lobbyists from politicians and Federal parties that happen every week up there.

What did the first bill do? Nothing. What will this one do? Nothing. You will not see ANY effect in your neighborhood when it comes to this money. They're just pissing it away.
 
1,300,000,000,000 / 300,000,000 = 4,333.33

I think he's a little off... Even if you consider half the population as taxable it's less than 9k. Granted, I still don't want to pay either amount for someone to get new grass...

[quote name='Friend of Sonic']I was watching The Early Show as a I peeled GS stickers from my Game Boy games I got from Gamestop (trying to clean up my game collection and my 150+ games from the 75% off sale were the last games I had left to clean up) and they were during a story on the stimlus. They showed a short clip of John McCain saying, "The stimlus bill would cost each tax payer 275,000."

I'm way too tired to go look this up to see if that's true, so I may come off sounding like John Q Suzy Housemaker, but wtf?! 275,000 dollars?! I make 30k a year, damn it![/quote]




I have the craziest solution. How about we, as a whole, STOP SPENDING MONEY WE DON'T fuckING HAVE!?

This is the reason I don't read the news. There's so much shit that's wrong with the world and the answers are so fucking obvious it's infuriating. Companies lay of 5,000 people, but the top 1% of the company takes home 50% of the profit.
We pay politicians hundreds of thousands of dollars to refuse to agree on an issue for 6 months a year for 4 years and then continue to pay them for the rest of their lives... WHO THE fuck CAME UP WITH THAT IDEA? I also love how they aren't allowed to give themselves raises... that take effect that term, but "cost of living increases" are just dandy.
Social security needs to be thrown away. If you don't have enough sense to set up an IRA or something, you deserve to wind up on your ass. At least if you die early, your family gets your IRA. You can work from 16-65 and die before your first SS check shows up and the money just goes to someone else. Awesome.



...I fucking hate people.
 
I'm currently in the Yucatan and after watching this news I have found a bank (Banco Azteca) that will sell pure silver coins at near market prices. I think I'm going to buy as many as I can.
 
for absolutely no reason at all...
nancy-pelosi.jpg
 
[quote name='KingBroly']So...we have 800+ billion from Bush, and now 900 billion from Obama (once again, assuming it passes now and not later). And I'm damn sure we'll get another one of these things in 3 months, so put in another trillion. That's 3 trillion dollars roughly (hell, we might get another one as a "Christmas Bonus").

And we're not putting the cost to run the military in this. If we were, I'd say we put in the paychecks of lobbyists from politicians and Federal parties that happen every week up there.

What did the first bill do? Nothing. What will this one do? Nothing. You will not see ANY effect in your neighborhood when it comes to this money. They're just pissing it away.[/QUOTE]

You really should not try to confuse the bailout and the stimulus.
 
[quote name='Mitt Romney']That's why permanent tax cuts should be the centerpiece of the economic stimulus.[/quote]

Oh, for fuck's sake...
 
[quote name='tivo']The spending bill would stimulate the government, not the economy.

Mitt Romney outlines what the stimulus package should consist of:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/06/romney.stimulus/index.html[/QUOTE]


Mitt is an idiot. He writes "these are extraordinary times" and then resorts to ordinary GOP economic policy. There is not one thing that address the current situation.

to summarize his plan

First-tax cuts
Second- spending for the Military
Third-tax cuts
Fourth- eliminate or reduce entitlements
Fifth- tax cuts


On top on this pile of BS Mitts adds giving himself props, retreading Republican campaign attacks on Obama and a few Reagan lines for good measure.

Mitt you suck. There is a reason you lost and MA is in especially deep doo.
 
Obviously the stimulus needs to consist of more than tax cuts but Mitt is right when we says this current plan will basically stimulate nothing but wasteful government programs.

This plan isn't anything close to a infrastructure bill, as Obama originally pitched it. It is overflowing with billions of dollars of pet projects that will not stimulate economic growth or help the struggling consumer.

At least a tax cut focused plan would allow people to have a little extra money every 2 weeks to pay off debt........assuming they still have a job of course.;)
 
"overflowing"? Hardly. Are there some questionable items but every list presented by these jokers has amounted to less then 1%.

And some of these actually will stimulate the economy (by example $600 million worth of fuel efficient cars) but not in meaningful or lasting way
 
[quote name='Msut77']You really should not try to confuse the bailout and the stimulus.[/quote]

The money may be going to different places, but the concept is the same. And the money will be pissed away just like the rest.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']The money may be going to different places, but the concept is the same. And the money will be pissed away just like the rest.[/QUOTE]

You contradict yourself in your first statement.

The whole entire point is where the money is going.
 
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I just skimmed it quickly and didn't see a whole ton of pork. Most of those things will create jobs. But like I said I only skimmed it. I'm sure there are some "wooden arrow" funds in there that don't belong.
 
Foolish politicians with their foolish wording trying to foolish fool the foolish fools who read their foolish words. You can't fool me.

Seriously, though. I know this is the no man's land forum, but can we please ban the next person to use that Nancy Pelosi picture? Seriously. It's reducing everyone's life expectancy.
 
I got all excited when I read about the incentives /credits to buy a new car in this bill......until I read that all those incentives / tax credits are for cars $45k or less. Booooo!
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I'm currently in the Yucatan and after watching this news I have found a bank (Banco Azteca) that will sell pure silver coins at near market prices. I think I'm going to buy as many as I can.[/quote]

Smart man. Paper money has nowhere to go but down.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I'm currently in the Yucatan and after watching this news I have found a bank (Banco Azteca) that will sell pure silver coins at near market prices. I think I'm going to buy as many as I can.[/quote]

Might want to hurry that up. Silver rounds are 13 bucks and skyrocketing. They will probably hit 20 bucks each very soon. Gold is also extremely expensive.
 
Precious metal nuts. You poor, stupid fools.

If things go really bad, necessities will trump trinkets.

After Katrina, people didn't want gold coins. They wanted blue jeans.

Here are your priorities: 1. Food and water. 2. Shelter. 3. Land to acquire #1 and place #2 (PUN!) 4. Weapons to defend or acquire numbers 1, 2 and 3.

Gold is just like any other currency. You have to find somebody willing to trade it for something else.
 
They are selling libertads fort about $15 (226 pesos) but i was only able to pick up one since they won't take Dollars for them (which is amusing). I'll try to get more if i can acquire some more pesos.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Precious metal nuts. You poor, stupid fools.

If things go really bad, necessities will trump trinkets.[/quote]

Yes..but if things don't go to complete shit (nuclear war and anarchy), there will certainly be a market for goods and services, and people will be willing to trade necessities for precious metals. Gold and silver are a universal form of money and always have been.. They can always be used as a medium of exchange which is far superior to bartering product A for product B. If you have plenty of jeans but need some food, you'll either need to find someone who happens to have food and needs a pair of jeans (unlikely), or someone who has food and is willing to accept gold and silver as payment (much more likely). If people have lost faith in their government, paper money will be worthless..but gold and silver can always be converted to anything else.
 
You forgot #5. A cemetery to bury people that couldn't do 1-3 or fell victim to those who could do #4.

[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Precious metal nuts. You poor, stupid fools.

If things go really bad, necessities will trump trinkets.

After Katrina, people didn't want gold coins. They wanted blue jeans.

Here are your priorities: 1. Food and water. 2. Shelter. 3. Land to acquire #1 and place #2 (PUN!) 4. Weapons to defend or acquire numbers 1, 2 and 3.

Gold is just like any other currency. You have to find somebody willing to trade it for something else.[/quote]
 
this is what was cut if it passes now

Fully eliminated
• $55 million for historic preservation
• $122 million for new Coast Guard polar icebreaker/cutters
• $100 million for Farm Service Agency modernization
• $50 million for CSERES research
• $65 million for watershed rehabilitation
• $30 million for SD salaries
• $100 for distance learning
• $98 million for school nutrition
• $50 million for aquaculture
• $2 billion for broadband
• $100 million for NIST
• $50 million for detention trustee
• $25 million for Marshalls Construction
• $300 million for federal prisons
• $300 million for BYRNE Formula
• $140 million for BYRNE Competitive
• $10 million state and local law enforcement
• $50 million for NASA
• $50 million for aeronautics
• $50 million for exploration
• $50 million for Cross Agency Support
• $200 million for National Science Foundation
• $100 million for science
• $1 billion for Energy Loan Guarantees
• $4.5 billion for GSA
• $89 million GSA operations
• $50 million from DHS
• $200 million TSA
• $122 million for Coast Guard Cutters, modifies use
• $25 million for Fish and Wildlife
• $20 million for working capital fund
• $165 million for Forest Service capital improvement
• $90 million for State and Private Wildlife Fire Management
• $1 billion for Head Start/Early Start
• $5.8 billion for Health Prevention Activity
• $2 billion for HIT Grants
• $600 million for Title I (NCLB)
• $16 billion for school construction
• $3.5 billion for higher education construction
• $1.25 billion for project based rental
• $2.25 for Neighborhood Stabilization
advertisement.gif



• $1.2 billion for retrofitting Project 8 housing
• $40 billion for state fiscal stabilization (includes $7.5 billion of state incentive grants)


i bolded stuff that i felt should remain on here for different reasons, mostly education and job creation.
 
I don't think more schools is the problem. We need to be building bigger schools. How many schools now open with a larger capacity then they were expecting? I'd imagine a lot.

I find it funny you bolded $100 million for science (a vague as hell term) but not $300 million for the federal prisons.

Also, I could spare that single neighborhood 2 dollars and 25 cents.
 
• $16 billion for school construction
• $3.5 billion for higher education construction

I'm really confused as to why they are cutting this. Wouldn't you create more jobs from not only the construction of the schools themselves, but also jobs for the teachers/staff of these schools?
 
[quote name='Ikohn4ever']
i bolded stuff that i felt should remain on here for different reasons, mostly education and job creation.[/QUOTE]

Well as I understand it, the entire original point of this bill was to directly stimulate the economy, which in turn, should create jobs.

Even if items in the bill are "good ideas" to some, it's still pork, and outside the intent of the bill.

There is still plenty of of line items still in the bill that are questionable as far as directly stimulating the economy.

The thing that gets me is that the average life-cycle of a recession is 18 months. Most of the stuff in this bill, it's authors admit, won't have much affect for years. So basically if we just left things alone, things SHOULD start bouncing back in about 6 months. But no - the government needs to "fix" things, like always, and will make everything much worse.

I also don't fully understand why each line item can't be voted on separately. Then again, any common sense efficiencies are something the government usually doesn't do.
 
Well I don't think the $2 billion on Broadband expansion is a bad idea. Just my opinion though.

I think that $300 million on Federal Prisons should've been cut.

What else? I think that money cut on Health Prevention is ridiculous. "Aquaculture" for that one item cut seems kinda ambiguous.
WTF is the "Project based rental"? Are we talking the projects or projects?
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']The thing that gets me is that the average life-cycle of a recession is 18 months. Most of the stuff in this bill, it's authors admit, won't have much affect for years. So basically if we just left things alone, things SHOULD start bouncing back in about 6 months. But no - the government needs to "fix" things, like always, and will make everything much worse.[/QUOTE]

This is not going to be an "average" recessions, its already been over a year and cost more jobs than other recessions and things are only going to get worse.

The second part of thrusts post is just proof that to many this is not about the stimulus or the merits of any particular program that they feel should be cut but their Jihad against the federal government.
 
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[quote name='thrustbucket']The thing that gets me is that the average life-cycle of a recession is 18 months. Most of the stuff in this bill, it's authors admit, won't have much affect for years. So basically if we just left things alone, things SHOULD start bouncing back in about 6 months[/QUOTE]

We've been experiencing slowed/negative growth since late 2007, and yet, the past three months have been the absolute worst in economic/employment metrics. To think we're on our way back up anytime soon is quite wrong.
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']Yes..but if things don't go to complete shit (nuclear war and anarchy), there will certainly be a market for goods and services, and people will be willing to trade necessities for precious metals. Gold and silver are a universal form of money and always have been.. They can always be used as a medium of exchange which is far superior to bartering product A for product B. If you have plenty of jeans but need some food, you'll either need to find someone who happens to have food and needs a pair of jeans (unlikely), or someone who has food and is willing to accept gold and silver as payment (much more likely). If people have lost faith in their government, paper money will be worthless..but gold and silver can always be converted to anything else.[/quote]

People will only trade for precious metals if their necessities are met.

A starving person won't trade his last meal for gold.

A thirsty person won't trade his last gallon of water for gold.

A modest person won't hand over his only clothes for gold.

If they are deficient in a necessity, a person will work to clear up that deficiency first.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']I don't think more schools is the problem. We need to be building bigger schools. How many schools now open with a larger capacity then they were expecting? I'd imagine a lot.

I find it funny you bolded $100 million for science (a vague as hell term) but not $300 million for the federal prisons.

Also, I could spare that single neighborhood 2 dollars and 25 cents.[/quote]

Well, with better education and more jobs there may be less need for the ammount of prison space we have.
 
But an immodest person would trade all his clothes for a gold cockring. :lol:

[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']People will only trade for precious metals if their necessities are met.

A starving person won't trade his last meal for gold.

A thirsty person won't trade his last gallon of water for gold.

A modest person won't hand over his only clothes for gold.

If they are deficient in a necessity, a person will work to clear up that deficiency first.[/quote]
 
[quote name='mykevermin']We've been experiencing slowed/negative growth since late 2007, and yet, the past three months have been the absolute worst in economic/employment metrics. To think we're on our way back up anytime soon is quite wrong.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you are right. But do you honestly believe that the government doing what it's doing (conjuring more money up out of nothing and putting us in record debt for the future, while showing all debtor nations that they have no reasons left to invest in the dollar) is going to fix things?
 
Bailing out the banks was necessary.

A lot of the stuff in the stimulus bill I don't think will help short term, but it could make things better long term. At least the things tied to education and job creation.
 
Well I disagree. I think it made things worse for a number of reasons I've stated already.

Only time will tell who's right.

Really hope you prove me wrong on this one though.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Bailing out the banks was necessary.[/quote]

Completely disagree.

[quote name='dmaul1114']A lot of the stuff in the stimulus bill I don't think will help short term, but it could make things better long term. At least the things tied to education and job creation.[/QUOTE]

Why do you think more money for education is going to make our education system better? Education spending has skyrocketed in the United States over the last 40 years, but our results in comparison to the rest of the world seem only to get worse.

b2179_chart4.gif


Our education system will not produce better results by getting more money. That much has been proven over decades. The rational approach is to change the structure of the system, not to put more money into a poorly designed system.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']
Why do you think more money for education is going to make our education system better?[/QUOTE]


I was thinking more in terms of building more schools which creates a lot of jobs rather than any benefits of education getting better. I was talking about the economy rather than education.

Education could get better with smaller class sizes, but it would have to be coupled with reforms which are needed more than money. Better pay for teachers in some areas, more accountability for performance of teachers etc. etc.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Completely disagree.
[/QUOTE]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. The credit system totally collapsing would have been disastrous. It's bad enough even with the bailouts. But no point arguing with a libertarian on these type of issues as we'll never see eye to eye.

[quote name='elprincipe']
Why do you think more money for education is going to make our education system better?[/QUOTE]


I was thinking more in terms of building more schools which creates a lot of jobs rather than any benefits of education getting better. I was talking about the economy rather than education.

Education could get better with smaller class sizes, but it would have to be coupled with reforms which are needed more than money. Better pay for teachers in some areas, more accountability for performance of teachers etc. etc.
 
:lol: @ education.

Tell me: Why are we like one of the 3 countries in the world to use the metric system.
I'm really curious about that. I know it's slightly off topic, but since we are talking about our already fucked up education system..
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']We'll just have to agree to disagree. The credit system totally collapsing would have been disastrous. It's bad enough even with the bailouts. But no point arguing with a libertarian on these type of issues as we'll never see eye to eye.[/quote]

I'm not a libertarian. I also don't think the credit system would have totally collapsed. But of course we'll never know, since what happened happened.

I'll forego the education part; suffice it to say that I think a radical overhaul (the replacement of our public school system with a private school system) is the answer.
 
Yeah, that's also an agree to disagree. I think a private school only system wouldn't work.

The public system just needs tweaked.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']We'll just have to agree to disagree. The credit system totally collapsing would have been disastrous. It's bad enough even with the bailouts. But no point arguing with a libertarian on these type of issues as we'll never see eye to eye.[/quote]
That may be. But you do realize that the bailout to "save" our credit system comes at the cost of putting an already tenuous situation with our world creditors at a much higher risk, right?

You can only give the finger (bailouts/printing money) to your creditors (in this case, several foreign countries) for so long, before they decide you are too much of a liability.

Do you have any idea what will happen when/if other nations start deciding to stop buying our debt; or worse - ignore the dollar for their goods we depend on? It makes allowing our own banks to "fail" about as serious as a high school prom being canceled in comparison. Every time we do these 800 billion dollar bailouts we don't just take a step, but a flying leap, towards it.

I guess it's just a matter of opinion which is worse out of letting banks fail and pulling the trigger on the total economic failure russian roulette pistol.

But I can promise you this: This is the first of several bailouts. Once it's started, and widely viewed as the only solution, they will keep coming; especially under this administration.

Education could get better with smaller class sizes, but it would have to be coupled with reforms which are needed more than money. Better pay for teachers in some areas, more accountability for performance of teachers etc. etc.
Click to expand...
I agree with that.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']I'm not a libertarian. I also don't think the credit system would have totally collapsed. But of course we'll never know, since what happened happened.

I'll forego the education part; suffice it to say that I think a radical overhaul (the replacement of our public school system with a private school system) is the answer.[/quote]

Hey check this out.

http://news.illinois.edu/NEWS/06/0123lubienski.html

It also says in my Psych textbook that private school graduates have a higher risk for criminal, binge drinking, and drug use during college than their Public school counterparts. Grade-wise the stats are about even.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']That may be. But you do realize that the bailout to "save" our credit system comes at the cost of putting an already tenuous situation with our world creditors at a much higher risk, right?

You can only give the finger (bailouts/printing money) to your creditors (in this case, several foreign countries) for so long, before they decide you are too much of a liability.

Do you have any idea what will happen when/if other nations start deciding to stop buying our debt; or worse - ignore the dollar for their goods we depend on? It makes allowing our own banks to "fail" about as serious as a high school prom being canceled in comparison. Every time we do these 800 billion dollar bailouts we don't just take a step, but a flying leap, towards it.[/quote]
The creditors will only call on the notes if they feel that they can do better elsewhere or they can lower their risk. They certainly can't do better elsewhere. Britain? A one trick (financial) pony that's cratering. France? A work force that no one wants to deal with. China? They don't exist independently of America's economy. The Asian dragons? Dead in the water. Despite this mess, America is still by orders of magnitude the best place to put money and will be for a very distant foreseeable future. No one matches our ability to innovate, create, and add value. Nor our ability to morph our work force to fit the needs of a changing market place. A couple of weeks ago, I read a piece in the Economist about the European policy makers worrying about their ability to keep up with America when the world comes out of the recession. From the inside, yea, we look up shit creek without a paddle. From the outside, the world wonders where the hell we got that sweet ass canoe in the first place, forgetting the paddles.
 
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