Abu Ghraib re-enactment stops Condi Rice speech

E-Z-B

E-Z-B

CAGiversary!
SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Demonstrators interrupted a speech by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on Friday by recreating an image of the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal in which a hooded prisoner stood with his arms outstretched attached to electric wires.

Amid tight security at San Francisco's Davies Symphony Hall, three women and one man pulled on black hoods and cloaks and stood on their seats, acting out the scene caught in one of the photographs of abuse that undermined U.S. prestige abroad.

Rice initially continued her speech on American foreign policy under President George W. Bush but paused when the protesters shouted "Stop the torture. Stop the killing. U.S. out of Iraq," as police led them out of the auditorium.

Medea Benjamin, one of the protesters, said they were kept in police custody for about an hour and a half and then released with a misdemeanor citation. "We feel we made our point," said Benjamin, a founding director of the human rights group Global Exchange.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?storyID=8632043&type=worldNews
http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/pl/111604condirice/im:/050527/480/caps10505272123

capt.caps10505272123.condoleezza_rice_caps105.jpg


Wish I could've seen that.
 
[quote name='CTLesq']What precisely is there to debate here?[/QUOTE]

That the protestors are sandy vaginas? They don't give a shit about what happened at Abu Ghraib as much as they care about something more to bitch about re: the US.
 
[quote name='Rich']That the protestors are sandy vaginas? They don't give a shit about what happened at Abu Ghraib as much as they care about something more to bitch about re: the US.[/QUOTE]

Real simplistic view there, it becomes so much simpler when you remove any complexity from your opponents.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Real simplistic view there, it becomes so much simpler when you remove any complexity from your opponents.[/QUOTE]

The same cannot be said of the protestors?
 
[quote name='Pylis']The same cannot be said of the protestors?[/QUOTE]

Some of them, it's debatable. I've been at protests and I don't believe I have that type of attitude, so you can't just say the protestors are all like that. But in this case I'm going by what the individual said, not an assumption I made about them.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Some of them, it's debatable. I've been at protests and I don't believe I have that type of attitude, so you can't just say the protestors are all like that. But in this case I'm going by what the individual said, not an assumption I made about them.[/QUOTE]

Certainly. I don't mean to label all protestors as simplistic. I just feel that "Stop the torture. Stop the killing. U.S. out of Iraq," is an oversimplification of the scenario. If they do feel this way, they should definitely be allowed to express it, but I think the timing here was a bit inappropriate.
 
I applaud these people for protesting what they see as crimes against humanity by our own government. Rich would've been happy living in 1930s Germany.
 
[quote name='Pylis']Certainly. I don't mean to label all protestors as simplistic. I just feel that "Stop the torture. Stop the killing. U.S. out of Iraq," is an oversimplification of the scenario. If they do feel this way, they should definitely be allowed to express it, but I think the timing here was a bit inappropriate.[/QUOTE]

But rich's view was comparable to the idea "the u.s. doesn't care about iraq, they just want more muslims to conquer", the line you mentioned is more of a chant, focusing on one part of what is happening.
 
I think Rich's line is valid to a degree. I certainly don't think all protestors are like that, but I do think that there are those who hate Bush to the point that they really DO only want to have something to attack the administration with.
 
[quote name='Pylis']I think Rich's line is valid to a degree. I certainly don't think all protestors are like that, but I do think that there are those who hate Bush to the point that they really DO only want to have something to attack the administration with.[/QUOTE]

But that's not what he said, he said they don't care about the abuses at all, all they care about is being able to bitch about the u.s. (i.e. not just bush).
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Some of them, it's debatable. I've been at protests and I don't believe I have that type of attitude, so you can't just say the protestors are all like that. But in this case I'm going by what the individual said, not an assumption I made about them.[/QUOTE]

And do you fucking dress up as tortured prisoners?
 
[quote name='mr unoriginal']This isn't just the debate forum, it's the politics forum.[/quote]

Read what the front of the forum says:

"Argue to your cheap ass heart's content on politics and other subjects ripe for argument. This is place for mature discussion and is NOT a flame forum."

Argue, ie debate. I fail to see what there is to discuss about this. They are entitled to protest. Even their stupidity is unquestionable.

[quote name='E-Z-B']I applaud these people for protesting what they see as crimes against humanity by our own government. Rich would've been happy living in 1930s Germany.[/QUOTE]

Yet again illustrating your ignorance of precisely what "crime against humanity" is.

I keep forgetting all of your Geneva Convention experience. But humorus, would you apply GC III or IV, did you know there was more than one?

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Read what the front of the forum says:

"Argue to your cheap ass heart's content on politics and other subjects ripe for argument. This is place for mature discussion and is NOT a flame forum."

Argue, ie debate. I fail to see what there is to discuss about this. They are entitled to protest. Even their stupidity is unquestionable.[/QUOTE]

If this forum was really a place for "mature" discussion, then it wouldn't be the only forum that isn't displayed on the front page.
 
[quote name='CTLesq']

Yet again illustrating your ignorance of precisely what "crime against humanity" is.

I keep forgetting all of your Geneva Convention experience. But humorus, would you apply GC III or IV, did you know there was more than one?

CTL[/QUOTE]

please enlighten us, oh scholar of humanity... who thinks the homeless exist for his amusement.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']And if I did, what's your point?[/QUOTE]

That you'd be looking more for reason to protest than actually protesting what you're protesting.
If you actually cared, you wouldn't be so dramatic about it. And if you did care and were so dramatic, then you're just a pretentious, melodramatic pussy.

With that said, NOTHING is worse than abortion protestors. They should all die. Every. Single. One.

[quote name='Sleepkyng']please enlighten us, oh scholar of humanity... who thinks the homeless exist for his amusement.[/QUOTE]

LOL at the homeless.

Oh, i'm supposed to feel sorry for them? my bad.
 
[quote name='Rich']That you'd be looking more for reason to protest than actually protesting what you're protesting.
If you actually cared, you wouldn't be so dramatic about it. And if you did care and were so dramatic, then you're just a pretentious, melodramatic pussy.

With that said, NOTHING is worse than abortion protestors. They should all die. Every. Single. One.



LOL at the homeless.

Oh, i'm supposed to feel sorry for them? my bad.[/QUOTE]

"Judge not, that ye be not judged." (Matthew 7:1) WHOOPSIES!

so you're not really for democracy, seeing as how you don't feel sorry for homeless people. Clearly, if we are to take Iraqis on a case by case basis (some should die because they are terrorists [LOL] but some should be saved because they deserve freedom) we should take homeless people in the same way? right?

what happened to give me your poor, give me your sick and weary?

naw, those thingz ain't 'Merican!

don't get upset, here let me sedate you with some visual jingoism
Proud%20to%20be%20An%20American%20Flag.jpg
 
[quote name='Sleepkyng']"Judge not, that ye be not judged." (Matthew 7:1) WHOOPSIES!

so you're not really for democracy, seeing as how you don't feel sorry for homeless people. Clearly, if we are to take Iraqis on a case by case basis (some should die because they are terrorists [LOL] but some should be saved because they deserve freedom) we should take homeless people in the same way? right?

You must've forgot the part where I'm not Christian, eh?
Why should I feel sorry for homeless people? They got there as a result of their actions, not mine. Iraqis = terrorists argument isn't mine, I appreciate your thoughts and concerns, though. :roll: But, alas, I have no problem with torturing the iraqis combatants, nor do I think the homeless should be given anything more than food and shelter.
 
so why would you laugh at them?
They're homeless people... who cares what their actions were, they have no home, are completely disenfranchised and treated like less than human. You know they're human, give them that!
dang man, you're kinda heartless (at least from my perspective) if you don't care. But whatever floats your boat, mate.

if it don't keep you up at night, i don't know what to tell yah :D

you may be right about the way things are, but man, i sure as hell hope not! LOL
 
[quote name='Rich'] And if you did care and were so dramatic, then you're just a pretentious, melodramatic pussy.

With that said, NOTHING is worse than abortion protestors. They should all die. Every. Single. One.
[/QUOTE]

compare and contrast the two sentences above. Does one sentence reflect comments in the other? Why might a reader describe the combined sentences above as irony?
Please use the allotted time to think about your answer.


Pretentious. Melodramatic. Pussy. :lol: :applause:
 
[quote name='Sleepkyng']please enlighten us, oh scholar of humanity... who thinks the homeless exist for his amusement.[/QUOTE]

That quote is ancient.

I keep it to annoy people like you.

Whenever someone comments on it I put another $1 into my HDTV fund.

I am doing quite well.

CTL

And the homeless are sub-human.
 
[quote name='Sleepkyng']compare and contrast the two sentences above. Does one sentence reflect comments in the other? Why might a reader describe the combined sentences above as irony?
Please use the allotted time to think about your answer.


Pretentious. Melodramatic. Pussy. :lol: :applause:[/QUOTE]

Melodramatic? Perhaps.

Pretentious and/or pussy? I think not.

And heartless? Much more callous than you can ever imagine. I just don't care.

[quote name='CTLesq']

And the homeless are sub-human.[/QUOTE]

Sub-human? No. People who failed at life? Yes.
 
[quote name='Rich']
Sub-human? No. People who failed at life? Yes.[/QUOTE]

Distinction without meaning?
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Distinction without meaning?[/QUOTE]

I suppose. They just suck at life, but they still deserve the basic amenities.
 
[quote name='Rich']I suppose. They just suck at life, but they still deserve the basic amenities.[/QUOTE]


yes, of course, they suck at life

however, to not suck at life:

you must be callous, not care about people, condone killing people when you feel it is right (like people who support abortion?). have your merits judged by capital gain or material luxury...

:applause:

i'm beginning to like you, Rich. I don't think I could have written a better character.

CTLesq on the other hand is just another boring right winger
 
[quote name='Rich']I suppose. They just suck at life, but they still deserve the basic amenities.[/QUOTE]

And like a parasite they can suck them out of me.

Better that they should die.

Sleepkyng if I was boring you would ignore me, but you don't and I am not.

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq']

Sleepkyng if I was boring you would ignore me, but you don't and I am not.

CTL[/QUOTE]


Thanks for the tip! I hadn't thought of that!
 
Having looked at how this thread developed, I notice several arguments being made by Rich and CTL:

(1) There's nothing to be upset about by what happened at Abu Ghraib; it's just the way things are.

(2) The homeless can't do anything right at all. We live in the most pure form of meritocracy, where one's hard work and toil lead to nothing but unfathomable financial success. It would never come to pass that someone could be born into a family of financial privelege and enter political office; all of our elected officials are self-made men, and all of the homeless just don't know how to do anything right.

I'm more than happy to admit that I watch a great deal of professional wrestling, which is a very simplistic and plebian form of entertainment (one can't deny *that*). I constatntly think of the ways in which professional wrestling mimics real life.

One such link occurred to me one day as I listened to Michael Savage. It simply hit me: this guy's a fucking cartoon character. I don't agree with a single thing this guy says, and yet I continue to listen, under the phony guise that, one day, "he'll get his." A caller will come up with an argument so bulletproof that Savage will crack on air. Eventually, I realized that the draw of the show was the very fact that this man made such boisterous, obnoxious claims - it was an ideological trainwreck, and you couldn't help listen! It's no different than wanting to see the Iron Sheik get pounded by Hulk Hogan, to use more popularly known guys. What they do in the wrestling business, though, is they give some "heat" to the bad guy - you have to have a reason to hate him. He may beat up the hero, steal his wife, blow up his car, you name it. The point is, professional wrestling and talk radio are structured such in much the same way; what you are watching is simply so appalling that you can't help but watch, and home that someone, somewhere, shuts this fucking asshole up. There's going to be a published paper about that eventually, I assure you.

So, the point is this; either these guys really buy into what Savage et al. have to say, and their debate styles reflect such obstructionist, hyperbolic nonsense; or, they are "in on the joke," and simply make generalizations because they know how much it pisses people off.

myke.
....blah blah blah.
 
[quote name='Rich']That you'd be looking more for reason to protest than actually protesting what you're protesting.
If you actually cared, you wouldn't be so dramatic about it. And if you did care and were so dramatic, then you're just a pretentious, melodramatic pussy.

With that said, NOTHING is worse than abortion protestors. They should all die. Every. Single. One.



LOL at the homeless.

Oh, i'm supposed to feel sorry for them? my bad.[/QUOTE]

Acting out the scene gets the point across, just like any movie or play. Though the next comment is just tasteless (the homeless one).
 
[quote name='Sleepkyng']yes, of course, they suck at life

however, to not suck at life:

you must be callous, not care about people, condone killing people when you feel it is right (like people who support abortion?). have your merits judged by capital gain or material luxury...

:applause:

i'm beginning to like you, Rich. I don't think I could have written a better character.

CTLesq on the other hand is just another boring right winger[/QUOTE]

Huh? What the fuck are you talking about? Honestly, do you read or just skim what I write? I said abortion PROTESTORS should die. I support abortion.
 
[quote name='Rich'][quote name='Sleepkyng']"Judge not, that ye be not judged." (Matthew 7:1) WHOOPSIES!

so you're not really for democracy, seeing as how you don't feel sorry for homeless people. Clearly, if we are to take Iraqis on a case by case basis (some should die because they are terrorists [LOL] but some should be saved because they deserve freedom) we should take homeless people in the same way? right?

You must've forgot the part where I'm not Christian, eh?
Why should I feel sorry for homeless people? They got there as a result of their actions, not mine. Iraqis = terrorists argument isn't mine, I appreciate your thoughts and concerns, though. :roll: But, alas, I have no problem with torturing the iraqis combatants, nor do I think the homeless should be given anything more than food and shelter.[/QUOTE]

I miss toronto, people actually cared about others there.

Though I wonder if you blame the homeless kids (some ran away from abusive parents or where kicked out), or the kids who belong to homeless parents (and are therefore homeless).
 
[quote name='Rich']Huh? What the fuck are you talking about? Honestly, do you read or just skim what I write? I said abortion PROTESTORS should die. I support abortion.[/QUOTE]

So wait, all people who disagree with you should die? Or just those who disagree with you on the abortion issue?
 
[quote name='elprincipe']So wait, all people who disagree with you should die? Or just those who disagree with you on the abortion issue?[/QUOTE]

exactly my point
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Having looked at how this thread developed, I notice several arguments being made by Rich and CTL:

(1) There's nothing to be upset about by what happened at Abu Ghraib; it's just the way things are.[/quote]

Nothing of the sort. This thread was about the protests about Abu Ghraib.

Not about what happened there.

[quote name='mykevermin'](2) The homeless can't do anything right at all. We live in the most pure form of meritocracy, where one's hard work and toil lead to nothing but unfathomable financial success. It would never come to pass that someone could be born into a family of financial privelege and enter political office; all of our elected officials are self-made men, and all of the homeless just don't know how to do anything right.

I'm more than happy to admit that I watch a great deal of professional wrestling, which is a very simplistic and plebian form of entertainment (one can't deny *that*). I constatntly think of the ways in which professional wrestling mimics real life.

One such link occurred to me one day as I listened to Michael Savage. It simply hit me: this guy's a fucking cartoon character. I don't agree with a single thing this guy says, and yet I continue to listen, under the phony guise that, one day, "he'll get his." A caller will come up with an argument so bulletproof that Savage will crack on air. Eventually, I realized that the draw of the show was the very fact that this man made such boisterous, obnoxious claims - it was an ideological trainwreck, and you couldn't help listen! It's no different than wanting to see the Iron Sheik get pounded by Hulk Hogan, to use more popularly known guys. What they do in the wrestling business, though, is they give some "heat" to the bad guy - you have to have a reason to hate him. He may beat up the hero, steal his wife, blow up his car, you name it. The point is, professional wrestling and talk radio are structured such in much the same way; what you are watching is simply so appalling that you can't help but watch, and home that someone, somewhere, shuts this fucking asshole up. There's going to be a published paper about that eventually, I assure you.

So, the point is this; either these guys really buy into what Savage et al. have to say, and their debate styles reflect such obstructionist, hyperbolic nonsense; or, they are "in on the joke," and simply make generalizations because they know how much it pisses people off.

myke.
....blah blah blah.[/QUOTE]

I know who Savage is. I have never once listened to his show(s).

But as you said it best. ....blah blah blah.

CTL
 
[quote name='elprincipe']So wait, all people who disagree with you should die? Or just those who disagree with you on the abortion issue?[/QUOTE]

Ohhhhhh, someone from the left putting words in my mouth? Color me surprised! That's only the 4th or 5th time this week.

Abortion protestors should be killed. Are you aware of how the stupid fucking Christian abortion protestors actually protest? They take dead babies from dumpsters behind abortion clinics and throw them at the clinic.
 
he was asking you a question, and you clarified
you said all abortion protestors should be killed. You didn't say all abortion protestors that throw dead babies should be killed.

how are you any different than a terrorist that says "all americans should be killed, they attack our land and their women are whores! they should all die"?

maybe you should form your own militia and kill abortion protestors, see how far that gets you.

not putting words in your mouth, reading your post and reiterating what you are saying.
 
[quote name='Rich']Abortion protestors should be killed. Are you aware of how the stupid fucking Christian abortion protestors actually protest? They take dead babies from dumpsters behind abortion clinics and throw them at the clinic.[/QUOTE]

Those would be the same fringe groups that blow up abortion clinics. Those people are terrrorists, not protestors.
 
Abortion protestors are extremely violent and dangerous (they even stalk and harass/assault people that enter clinics), I agree that they should be shot on the spot.
 
[quote name='Pylis']I think Rich's line is valid to a degree. I certainly don't think all protestors are like that, but I do think that there are those who hate Bush to the point that they really DO only want to have something to attack the administration with.[/QUOTE]

LOL. Nowhere near the number of red-stateras who think that voting for Bush "no matter what the liberal media says" entitles them to label themselves a patriot.
 
[quote name='Rich']Ohhhhhh, someone from the left putting words in my mouth? Color me surprised! That's only the 4th or 5th time this week.

Abortion protestors should be killed. Are you aware of how the stupid fucking Christian abortion protestors actually protest? They take dead babies from dumpsters behind abortion clinics and throw them at the clinic.[/QUOTE]

No one put words in your mouth. Though I don't think abortion protestors do that, they can be a little (or a lot) crazy, but not that (and I don't think they'd be able to get them from the dumpster anyway).
 
[quote name='CTLesq']Nothing of the sort. This thread was about the protests about Abu Ghraib.

Not about what happened there.[/quote]

Perhaps; who, other than Lynndie England (sp?) has been punished for what happened? The protests remind us of the hubris of both the military and the administration, in that so few people have been reprimanded for what many consider to be atrocious behavior for a "civilized nation." Perhaps next time PAD makes a post of a factual news story, you can ask the same question of him - what is there to protest?



[quote name='CTLesq']I know who Savage is. I have never once listened to his show(s).

But as you said it best. ....blah blah blah.

CTL[/QUOTE]

This doesn't mean that you don't interact with people who learn to debate like him. I can't have political discourse with my mother, who, although a very brilliant person, uses interrupting techniques, tries to speak louder than me to get a point in, and uses simplistic "talking point" like phrases to allow her to "win." It is the result of too much Hannity and Colmes; Savage isn't the only purveyor of this kind of polemic, but certainly the most transparent (with perhaps the exception of Wally George, who was a farce anyway).

myke.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23'] (and I don't think they'd be able to get them from the dumpster anyway).[/QUOTE]

You're wrong. They can....well, at least they could. I don't know if abortion clinics still throw them out in dumpsters.


Abortion protestors are extremely violent and dangerous (they even stalk and harass/assault people that enter clinics), I agree that they should be shot on the spot.
Click to expand...

Truth. They're all douche bags. Am I generalizing? Yes, but almost every one of them is violent and deserves death.

Funny, I finally agree with something from the left (abortion) and I still get into an argument about it.
 
[quote name='Rich']

Funny, I finally agree with something from the left (abortion) and I still get into an argument about it.[/QUOTE]

don't you find this wierd? you talk as if there are two sides and that is it. Left and Right or whatever.

And you speak as if there are only two views on abortion, the war, terrorism and all else.

Wouldn't it be novel to consider that there are a multitude of positions and perspectives based on as many life experiences and backgrounds?
If we were to use these experiences and perspectives in a way that would allow us to have discourse that presented ideas and potential solutions, maybe a consensus could be reached, and perhaps things that you may instantly be combative against may yield help in your own understanding of the way things are.

I think that would be ideal. I know that by opening my eyes to a lot of my "Right" (as you put it) friends and their views has 1) allowed me to understand WHY they say what they say, and 2) gives me more options to choose and consider when thinking about my own views on political and cultural issues.

Just a thought... but if you want to make this argument that i'm making into a "win or lose" battle, be my guest and reject the notion with all the force of tunnel vision.
 
[quote name='Sleepkyng']don't you find this wierd? you talk as if there are two sides and that is it. Left and Right or whatever.

And you speak as if there are only two views on abortion, the war, terrorism and all else.

Wouldn't it be novel to consider that there are a multitude of positions and perspectives based on as many life experiences and backgrounds?
If we were to use these experiences and perspectives in a way that would allow us to have discourse that presented ideas and potential solutions, maybe a consensus could be reached, and perhaps things that you may instantly be combative against may yield help in your own understanding of the way things are.

I think that would be ideal. I know that by opening my eyes to a lot of my "Right" (as you put it) friends and their views has 1) allowed me to understand WHY they say what they say, and 2) gives me more options to choose and consider when thinking about my own views on political and cultural issues.

Just a thought... but if you want to make this argument that i'm making into a "win or lose" battle, be my guest and reject the notion with all the force of tunnel vision.[/QUOTE]

You either support abortion, or you don't. I'd be in your "grey" area since I only support abortion during the first 40 days, but I'd still consider myself to support abortion, as opposed to opposing abortion.
 
[quote name='Rich']You either support abortion, or you don't. I'd be in your "grey" area since I only support abortion during the first 40 days, but I'd still consider myself to support abortion, as opposed to opposing abortion.[/QUOTE]

Oh, horseshit. I support the availability of abortion, but I'd be in line to celebrate the day that abortion procedures are reduced to nonexistent levels. In regards to policy, one thing that would reduce abortions is to increase the availability of condoms, and the teaching of proper safe sex procedures in school.

I support abortion because our government is too chickenshit to act to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies; until the latter happens, the former is an unfortunate necessity.

myke.
...black and white my ass.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Perhaps; who, other than Lynndie England (sp?) has been punished for what happened? The protests remind us of the hubris of both the military and the administration, in that so few people have been reprimanded for what many consider to be atrocious behavior for a "civilized nation." Perhaps next time PAD makes a post of a factual news story, you can ask the same question of him - what is there to protest?[/quote]

Jesus, you are completely disqualified to discuss this issue if your example of punishment is Lyndie England. Google Charles Grainer. Over 125 people have faced military justice or disiplinary actions.

PAD isn't my issue or problem.

CTL

Edit: I could care less about your second point.
 
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