Airport body scanners, pat downs and the TSA

[quote name='UncleBob']So, you think that by targeting some broad groups of people for suspicion, while ignoring (or limiting suspicions towards) other groups of people is less effective?[/QUOTE]

There's no probability of finding would-be terrorists using selected security measures. You're talking about 19 people a decade ago, and a handful (fewer than 5 domestically, and that's probably an overestimate) if the news reports are accurate, in the US since then.

So 24 people in just under a decade, as a proportion of the hundreds of millions of people who have boarded planes since then? There's *no* chance of discovering those people if we only use selective (racial) profiling.

That's independent of the second argument against profiling - once the characteristics and traits used to profile are discovered, they will be altered and circumvented by those who seek to hijack planes.

For instance, one time, when the police were searching for me about 13 years ago, I was tipped off because they were looking for someone with a "big green mohawk." I borrowed a hat from somebody and hid out in the darkest bar I could find. When the police came up to me and asked if I'd seen someone with a big green mohawk, I told them I had not. Thank goodness for that hat, yes?
 
Look sporadic, I was stating that MOST attacks are from people from the mid east. Sure there was that japanese tourist that did that but when was it? 1972? How many more since then? How about if I ask how many mid easterners tried or committed a terrorist like attack? The numbers are going to be exponentially higher. That japanese tourist was a rare anomaly. Of course it should have never happened but so should many of the other terror attacks done by extremists.

Yes racial profiling is screwed up but how else can this be done effectively? My main problem with the machine and pat downs (aside from being invasive) is that once we submit to these at airports, what is stopping them from doing this everywhere else? I said it before but a plane is such a stupid place to bomb instead of the mall, sports game or college. In 9/11, they succeeded into scaring the shit out of us and things like security had a massive change. Someone will probably do it again and it won't be a surprise when they implement these security measures everywhere because everyone is fine with it at airports so why not at your son's school play?

Clak, I'll be honest, I did not read that prior to posting that essay but Rafi basically calls himself out right away in this interview.

Mr. RAFI RON (Consultant, Logan Airport): We use profiling. It is not the racial profiling. It is profiling that takes into consideration where somebody comes from, and if somebody's home address is Gaza, we should be paying more attention to details compared to, for example, a Holocaust survivor from Tel Aviv.

Mr. RON: Correct. If somebody comes out of Yemen or somebody comes out of Somalia today, this is something that should certainly draw our attention. But I think it would be a mistake to use only that as the single criteria.

He calls it just profiling and states that an individual coming from a certain country would get more attention. Not racial profiling? Well I found it to be a bit similar to it.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']There's no probability of finding would-be terrorists using selected security measures. You're talking about 19 people a decade ago, and a handful (fewer than 5 domestically, and that's probably an overestimate) if the news reports are accurate, in the US since then.[/QUOTE]

Good. Then, we agree. The TSA should not selectively take various groups of people and decide to exempt them from the same types of security measures everyone else is required to partake in.
 
[quote name='mr_burnzz']Look sporadic, I was stating that MOST attacks are from people from the mid east. Sure there was that japanese tourist that did that but when was it? 1972? How many more since then? How about if I ask how many mid easterners tried or committed a terrorist like attack? The numbers are going to be exponentially higher. That japanese tourist was a rare anomaly. Of course it should have never happened but so should many of the other terror attacks done by extremists.[/QUOTE]

So, where are your numbers? Because you are currently talking out of your ass.

I posted a story of their airport getting attacked by Japanese terrorists. As far as I can find, the last terrorist attempt by an arab (from their awesome super secure airport) was in 2002 where an Israeli arab snuck a knive onboard and tried to storm the cockpit. Nobody was killed or hurt.

Let's go to the scoreboard:
Japanese terrorists = 26 killed, 80 injured
Arab terrorists = 0 killed, (if what I read is right - 1986 suitcase bomb) 13 injured

If they should be profiling anybody, the numbers say it should be Asians.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']EDIT: So the patdowns are invasive. What's wrong with the scanners? I like the way you stand in them, I get to pretend I'm Diamond Dallas Page. FEEL. THE. BAAAAANG![/QUOTE]

What's wrong with the scanners?

1. Radiation. The "holy shit" kind.

2. If you say "feel the bang" in an airport or on a plane, nobody's going to ever see you again. Because you'll be in Guantanamo.
 
For instance, one time, when the police were searching for me about 13 years ago, I was tipped off because they were looking for someone with a "big green mohawk." I borrowed a hat from somebody and hid out in the darkest bar I could find. When the police came up to me and asked if I'd seen someone with a big green mohawk, I told them I had not. Thank goodness for that hat, yes?
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Just curious, but is this a true story? Erm, nevermind sounds real to me, lol.
 
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[quote name='Chuplayer']What's wrong with the scanners?

1. Radiation. The "holy shit" kind.

2. If you say "feel the bang" in an airport or on a plane, nobody's going to ever see you again. Because you'll be in Guantanamo.[/QUOTE]
According to what I've read, the does of radiation from one of these machines is a fraction of the radiation you'd get from a normal chest x-ray. Which I understand, the radiation is my biggest concern too, but this is what I've read about it.
 
Maybe they should just let passengers carry stun guns. If every passenger on the plane had one, it wouldn't be an easy plane to hijack. Now, guns on a plane are a problem obviously since they can actually damage the airplane, as with pepper spray inside a plane would be a very bad idea, but stun guns would be safe.

I know it will never happen, but I think it would be a good deterrent. Hell, include a stun gun in the price of everyones ticket and get rid of some of the bogus security measures they have now. Just trying to think outside the box, lol.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']stun guns don't really help when mr. terrorist decides to turn himself into a bomb[/QUOTE]

Actually, if he's holding down a button that will blow up a bomb when released, shocking him continuously will keep his muscles constricted and will electrically keep him from releasing the button.
 
Yeah, I admit that was more of a stoned ramble then anything. The bomb thing didn't occur to me at the time.

Although, at the same time, most of the bombs haven't been very high tech, I mean underpants and shoe bombers, what's to be afraid of?

Anyway, rather than fighting a useless war and giving up our own freedoms, we need to start thinking about what we have done wrong in the world through our imperialism and the things we do that piss people off.

Israel is perfectly capable of protecting itself from any and all threats thanks to the weapons we have already sold them, plus some technology they stole from us. It really wouldn't be leaving them to the wolves. They will fine, as they have already proven in the past.

Afghanistan is hardly more of a democracy than it was before we went in there. He isn't of Pashtun ethinicity, the main ethnicity in Afghanistan and race is a major issue in the country. He rigged the ballots and the whole world knows it. The media displays Afghanis that want us there, but most of these have something to lose if we leave, maybe their heads, maybe their job. But from everything I've ever seen, the numbers seem to suggest that they would rather we go home today.

Wikipedia article about our current pullout from Iraq, read it to the end:
On June 29, 2009, U.S. troops formally withdrew from Baghdad streets, in accordance with former U.S. President George W. Bush's security pact with Iraq known as the Status of Forces Agreement. The SOFA pact stated, among other things, that U.S. troops will withdraw from Iraq's cities by June 30, 2009, and will leave the country on December 31, 2011.[72] Throughout the country, as the citizens of Iraq celebrated with fireworks,[73] television programs declared June 30 as National Sovereignty Day.[74][75] However, crime and violence initially spiked in the months following the US withdrawal from cities.[76][77][78][79][80] As Iraqi security forces struggled to suppress the sudden influx of crime, the number of kidnappings, robberies, bomb assaults, and shootings increased dramatically.[76][80] According to the Associated Press, Iraqi military spokesman Major General Qassim al-Moussawi said investigations found that 60 to 70 percent of the criminal activity is carried out by former insurgent groups or by gangs affiliated with them — partly explaining the brutality of some of the crimes.[76] United States Secretary of Defense Robert Gates said that the withdrawal caused a change of chemistry with “a real sense of empowerment on the part of the Iraqis.”[81][82] Despite the initial increase in violence, on November 30, 2009, Iraqi Interior Ministry officials reported that the civilian death toll in Iraq fell to its lowest level in November since the 2003 invasion.[83] U.S. troops continue to work with Iraqi forces after the pullout.
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We aren't completely out of there, but I think that it states the case that sometimes leaving is the best thing we can do.
 
sporadic, you're right. I am talking outta my ass. I tried to google but couldn't find anything. Many incidents on land though. All I can say is that I recall reading news throughout the years with minor incidents that seemed to outnumber Japanese tourists.
 
You gotta love it when the security agents isolate soccer mom babies as bomb carrier threats. That's looking for domestic terrorists among Americans, isn't it?

Go far enough with this internal security crap and they'll be breeding resentment in the form of homegrown "freedom fighters." Not that it'll matter to me--I'll be riding my UFO in 2012 ;)
 
[quote name='Liberty1']Yeah, I admit that was more of a stoned ramble then anything. The bomb thing didn't occur to me at the time.

Although, at the same time, most of the bombs haven't been very high tech, I mean underpants and shoe bombers, what's to be afraid of?[/QUOTE]

There was that one guy who stuffed one pound of plastic explosive up his ass to try and blow up that Saudi prince. Didn't kill the prince (the bomber's own body took most of the blast) but that could cause hell on a plane.

[quote name='mr_burnzz']sporadic, you're right. I am talking outta my ass. I tried to google but couldn't find anything. Many incidents on land though. All I can say is that I recall reading news throughout the years with minor incidents that seemed to outnumber Japanese tourists.[/QUOTE]

so you admit you are talking out of your ass...but that you will continue to hold firm to that belief despite having no proof

are you also the type of guy who thinks blacks are more violent because "i could swear it is always a black fellow on the news getting arrested"

lol
 
[quote name='Liberty1']Just curious, but is this a true story? Erm, nevermind sounds real to me, lol.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but it's less insidious than it sounds. Earlier that evening I came across some squatter kid who was super fucked out of his head - you know those people who drink so much their glads secrete alcohol instead of sweat, causing them to positively *reek* of booze? I saw some bouncers at a bar beating him up, so I jumped on one dude's back, trying to tell him to get the fuck off because cat was fucked up out of his head. Bouncer threw me over his shoulder and then pushed me away. I never threw a punch, but since I wasn't a bouncer, I'm the one more liable for assault charges. ;)

I'm much more mellow these days, though.

[quote name='Liberty1']Maybe they should just let passengers carry stun guns. If every passenger on the plane had one, it wouldn't be an easy plane to hijack. Now, guns on a plane are a problem obviously since they can actually damage the airplane, as with pepper spray inside a plane would be a very bad idea, but stun guns would be safe.

I know it will never happen, but I think it would be a good deterrent. Hell, include a stun gun in the price of everyones ticket and get rid of some of the bogus security measures they have now. Just trying to think outside the box, lol.[/QUOTE]

I disagree with stun guns. I just caught an overnight flight from SF to ATL on the way back home to Philly. If I had a stun gun on me that flight, the screaming 4-year-old across the aisle from me would have experienced it at some point, seeing as how I ended up with zero sleep over about a 35-hour period thanks, in large part, to that fucking brat. Just sayin' - and if it wasn't me, it would be someone else. Maybe.
 
I don't know what the American obsession with acronyms is, I swear they come up with the acronym first and then a name to fit with it.

I've noticed parents these days basically just let kids scream, I can' tell you how many times I've wanted to choke some kid in a restaurant that keeps screaming bloody murder.

I think this qualifies as the strangest derailment of a vs thread.
 
Did anyone even READ my simple suggestion for how to deal with this without a loss of privacy? I said police dogs, they've used them for years to sniff out drugs and explosives so WHY not use these instead of the body scanners and invasive patdowns?
They'd be cheaper and more effective then both aforementioned methods. Of course this wouldn't make Michael Chertov money and we have to make sure all those former members of the cabinet get their piece of pork right?!
 
[quote name='Sarang01']Of course this wouldn't make Michael Chertov money[/QUOTE]

ding ding ding that's what this is all about

Absolutely nothing has prevented terrorism since 9/11 besides reinforcing cockpit doors and new passenger attitudes towards terrorism, everything else is just a money grab.

I am so sick of people saying "the scans are ok if they make us safe". They DON'T make us any safer, they just provide that illusion. There are a ton of easy ways that terrorists could kill people if they wanted to that don't involve airports/airplanes at all.
 
There should be knives in the back of every airplane seat. That way we're armed to combat terrorism, we're prepared to shut that kid in 23C up, and we satisfy the anti-guns-on-planes crowd.
 
When we flew last week, they were making "random" people in line go through the backscatters. My husband was selected, I wasn't. I just like to think that the woman who selected him merely wanted to see his sexy naked body.
 
[quote name='heyfunboy']I don't mind them, it's for safety.[/QUOTE]

nope, the scans don't make anyone safer, they just make you feel safer
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Well, I can't argue with that. :D[/QUOTE]
Oh you could, you won't, but you could.
 
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