Anyone knowledgable of evolution want to help me rebutt this?

PyroGamer

Banned
Basically I'm meeting with a friend of mine next week, he gave me these papers full of claims against the theory of evolution, and asked me to tell him what I think of it.

Alot of the claims in here have been addressed already, if you want to help me rebutt some of it, I'd be eternally grateful. Thanks alot in advance.

http://exvivomortis.googlepages.com/evidence?
 
If you've already taken care of some specify which claims you want help on. When you're asking people to do your work for you you should at least tell them what doesn't need doing.
 
Fairly sure the rules of friendly debating require coming up with the points and rebuttals yourself as opposed to getting zingers off of a video-game message board.
 
Theres no point in wasting time arguing with someone who is against evolution. Unless you're just having fun with it.

Maybe I'll look it at later this weekend, but I'll say the following first:

a) You'd have to be particularly keen to pick out the subtle flaws in methodology or how they are outright wrong. You dont have papers to rebutt, so the fight isnt quite a fair one. Just know that every point that appears to discredit evolution, dont. If these papers had any merit, they wouldnt have to prove it to YOU, they ought to be trying to prove it to the scientific community at large.

b) Some facets of evolution are much better explained if the unit of evolution is the individual gene or genetic material, rather than the individual. Selection at any higher level (group, species, phylum, etc) is fictional.
 
OK, I just flipped to a random page to see how easy it would be, and its easier than I thought. Where did this come from, a Jesus camp textbook?

Pages 13-16 deal with variability in Cytochrome c, which is an extremely basic function and is well known for having among the smallest variability across species. They decide to use the difference in THAT to say that because everyone has this basic function relatively unchanged, that it appears that simpler species did not evolve into more complex ones? Really?

Its not even a very long chain. Theres not a lot of room for variability while preserving its basic function
 
Agreed, if they're throwing literature at you and wanting you to discuss it, arguing evolution with them is nigh pointless. You aren't going to convince them of anything.

That said, nothing in that article disproves evolution. The author picks out disparities, points to them and says, "See? See? I told you evolution was a sham! Let's all laugh at the silly evolutionists."

Oh, and the author used the term "creation scientists". No such animal.
 
I guess I qualify to help, as I am a few months away from earning my PhD in Evolutionary Biology. Forgive the lengthy post, here are a few comments to help:

1. The first few pages are all about geology and basically claim that the geologic recod Darwin used is based on assumptions of slow constant processes forming rock layers (which they disagree with).
This point really isn't arguing against evolution, but rather denying the age of the Earth used by all scientific fields (geology, physics, astronomy). The age of the Earth and Universe have been independently estimated by multiple methods (radioactive decay of elements = physics, redshifted light = astronomy).
The common claim of the Earth being 6000 years old, is easily refuted by ice cores from Antarctica and Greenland (snow is laid down in winter, some melts in summer to make distinctive layers) and also by tree rings (the oldest trees are more than 6000 years old).

2. The next pages talk about the absence of intermediate transitional fossils. It is important to think about evolution as a bush rather than a ladder, we may not find something that is actually another animal's direct ancestor, but it still gives evidence
There are many transitional forms of just this sort. One great example is Archaeopteryx, an early bird that has wings and feathers, but still has teeth and claws on its wings. If Archaeopteryx were just a bird with no evolutionary history, why does it have teeth? There have also been other recent finds that show features intermediate between dinosaurs and birds, Sinosauropteryx and Caudipteryx are both dinosaurs with feathers, but they lack some other bird-like features.
Another good example of transitional forms comes from Whale evolution, there are numerous early whales (Ambulocetus and Pakicetus) with fore and hind limbs intermediate between living whales and their ancestors. Further evidence of this evolutionary history also exists in the fact that many living whales also have a small remnant of their hindlimb (the femur bone) within their bodies.
The point about Austrolopithicus is weak, as it is only one of about a dozen intermediates in the evolution of humans. Pointing at one link in a long chain and saying it doesn't link the ends is not a strong argument.

3. One important point is that material you posted makes claims about what is "true", science is always willing to change and looking for better explanations for what we see. No real scientist claims anything is "true," but rather a theory is a hypothesis that is well supported by evidence.

4. The argument about genes and development is easily rebutted if you look up "Hox" genes. These are highly conserved genes that have the same basic function in very distantly related organisms. Basically the same gene in a fly, a mouse, and a human control the formation of body segments, limbs, and other features. Other features of development to support evolution are the fact that humans have a tail and gill slits over our embryological development, how can these features be explained except by the fact that some of our ancestors had them?

5. The argument about protein sequences are horribly inaccurate, comparing one protein sequence and using that to construct relationships is not what scientists do. Proteins are heavily modified after they are made, so to figure out how things are related scientists go back to the blueprint, the DNA. It was the human genome (DNA) project, not the human protein project for a reason.

One last thing, keep in mind many scientists are religious, they can reconcile evolution and religion. Science tries to explain how, not why. Good luck. I hope that helps.
 
There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of animals Chuck Norris allows to live.


sorry....had to pull that off
 
[quote name='lokizz']the only way i can rebutt it is to say look at your bible. religion and evolution dont mix .[/quote]

Well if you're going to take everything so literal, then of course they don't.

Did you see what the smart guy above said?
One last thing, keep in mind many scientists are religious, they can reconcile evolution and religion. Science tries to explain how, not why.

That's true of the majority of scientists I've known in my life.
 
[quote name='PyroGamer']Basically I've got this paper due next week[/QUOTE]


fixed.
 
Why does everyone always say that evolutionists don't believe in Noah's flood. For a scientific paper, it takes a lot of creative liberty with people's beliefs.

EDIT -- I disagree with the part that says that fossils found on different continents can't be related. The continents were all connected in one large land mass millions of years ago. Even as the continents drifted, they were connected. Hell, India was part of Antarctica once upon a time.

Also, the author uses the fact that rock strata are formed in different ways so you shouldn't use it as a definate marker for the age of anything. Then, in the evolution of the horse, he says that fossils of the different animals were found near the level of strata across the globe so the horse couldn't have evolved from small dogs. I hate when people use one side of an argument to bolster their side and then flip flop to try prove another point.

2nd Edit -- Why would the differences in amino acids matter? If evolution is correct, then each animal's DNA will code to make amino acids that will benefit the species. Why would everything else evolve on an animal but not the DNA and subsequently amino acid chains?
 
Common sense debunks evolution.

If vision, the human eye, dual stereoscopic auto focus 180 degree cameras positioned perfectly at the top of our head just HAPPENED....and every other animals eyes are perfectly placed & tuned to their life....just HAPPENED.....right. This is as likely as your brain suddenly becoming bluetooth compatible. This happened along with all of the millions of processes and systems in our body....they just HAPPENED? Right....

Intelligent design is evident in everything around us. Even if they could figure out the processes or actually observe them - how it COULD happen....evolution of even a single, 'simple' species over a trillion years, is infintely less likely than finding a laptop computer that naturally formed in the middle of the woods. Yet, we are to assume this happened simultaneously with millions of species around the globe? Right...


Just admit there is a creator.....say it's an alien race or something if it makes you happy.....Evolution is implausible.
 
[quote name='lokizz']the only way i can rebutt it is to say look at your bible. religion and evolution dont mix .[/quote]

Fundamentalist Christianity and evolution don't mix.

Many other religions don't have a conflict between the two, and choose to focus on other issues such as helping the disadvantaged and enlightenment.
 
If you want to debunk evolution, that's fine. I'd just for once like physical proof for creation other than the Bible. If you can give me physical evidence that the earth was instantly populated with millions of different species in a grand flash of intelligent design, I'll side with you. Until then, I like evolution.

And to Pucker saying that a computer spontaneously forming in the forest is more likely than a simple species evolving........wow. You say that common sense debunks evolution and you use a completely non-sensical argument. Way to shore up your argument.
 
[quote name='Pucker']Common sense debunks evolution.

If vision, the human eye, dual stereoscopic auto focus 180 degree cameras positioned perfectly at the top of our head just HAPPENED....and every other animals eyes are perfectly placed & tuned to their life....just HAPPENED.....right. This is as likely as your brain suddenly becoming bluetooth compatible. This happened along with all of the millions of processes and systems in our body....they just HAPPENED? Right....[/QUOTE]

Yes, it just happened. But not like you're saying. It wasn't some magical instant fix. We are as we are today because that's what works. Evolution gets it wrong more than it gets it right, which is why 99% of all species that have existed are extinct. Hence, natural selection. The traits that work, such as your example of eye placement, are passed on. Just as you said, "every other animal[']s eyes are perfectly placed & tuned to their life." That's because that setup works. There are thousands of evolutionary dead ends in the fossil record because of traits that didn't work, or weren't the best.
 
I'm not going to get into this whole thing, but this really should go into the Vs. forum. Nobody is going to agree on anything here...
 
Everyone loves to point to the eye and say look how "perfect" it is, it must have been "intelligently designed". Our eyes are actually not perfect at all.

If you actually look at a vertebrate eye (like ours) you will find that the light sensing cells (rods and cones) are actually beneath the blood vessels that supply the retina. So everytime you look at anything, you are looking through a thin layer of blood vessels and your brain has to correct for it.

The eyes of cephalopods (like an octopus or squid) have the blood vessels behind the retina, a much better way than ours. So is this a consequence of the kinds of eyes our ancestors had, or are we scientists just incapable of recognizing our perfection?

Another example of poor "design" is the fact that our breathing and eating tubes cross in our throat, making it so you are in danger of choking anytime you eat anything. A better design would be to have them not cross, but the evolutionary consequence of our ancestors having one pharynx for breathing and eating left us with what we have.
 
[quote name='Pucker']Physical proof of creation....of intelligent design?

The human body

I rest my case.[/QUOTE]

The vestigial appendix. Useless to us now. Why do we have it?

Wisdom teeth. Our jaws are smaller than our ancestors, hence many problems with wisdom tooth development. (This is not universal, some people have no problems with wisdom teeth or simply don't develop any)

Our rib cage. It's designed to support your internal organs in the four-legged position. On 2 legs, all our organs are just supported by muscle. Hence, our rib cage design is left over from when our ancestors did not walk upright.

The human body is full of evolutionary remnants.
 
[quote name='Purple Flames']Look up anything written by Richard Dawkins. He knows his stuff as far as refuting intelligent design goes.[/QUOTE]

Life results from the non-random survival of randomly varying replicators.

The creationist arguement? A big invisible man in the sky.
I also like how the intelligent design fans try to debunk evolution by finding a few things that are wrong or shaky and claim "THERE, SEE!", and that's not how science works, ladies and gents. Intelligent design isn't a science, it's religion.



I don't know, but I do know this should go to vs.
 
Okay, I'm going to take my own advice and realize that no one's going to convince anyone to think anything other than what they already do here. I'm done :)
 
[quote name='hxhawkeye']Yes, it just happened. But not like you're saying. It wasn't some magical instant fix. We are as we are today because that's what works. Evolution gets it wrong more than it gets it right, which is why 99% of all species that have existed are extinct. Hence, natural selection. The traits that work, such as your example of eye placement, are passed on. Just as you said, "every other animal[']s eyes are perfectly placed & tuned to their life." That's because that setup works. There are thousands of evolutionary dead ends in the fossil record because of traits that didn't work, or weren't the best.[/quote]

The more complex a system, the easier it is to tell if it was created makeshift (just fell into place) or was a system specifically designed for the purpose.

The most simplistic process of the most 'simple' organisms are infintely more complex than humans are capable of creating or often even understanding.
If evolution held some truth we'd have appendices hanging everywhere. Every animal would have many of those 'useless' whale bones.

No, to extend my previous example - our eyes are protected in sockets around the armor skull, positioned perfectly to see where we are going. There is no better place on the body....and that's true of every species.

Would a person be more likely to die if their eyes were in their feet? Sure. Is that specifically suited type of design likely to repeat in millions of species each with millions of processes as perfectly as it has.....not a chance.

Life, even the simplest forms, are far too complex to have just fallen into place. Given the diversity and abundance of life on earth, evolution goes way beyond the realm of plausible.


Also.....fossil record doesn't bear out the 99% claim there. That's probably the 'assumed' record assuming evolution was true. That's circular reasoning.
 
The whole problem with disproving evolution by stating that "our body works perfectly so it must have been designed intelligently" takes for granted that evolution accomplishes the same thing. Any species that had eyes that were not protected or things that are useless or unsuited to its environment would be more likely to die of natural causes or from a predator. Because of this fewer and fewer of these creatures would live to an age that they could reproduce and eventually they would die out. An example would be a fire into which I throw random things and then ask someone what I threw in there. He would find ash and the only other objects he finds would be things that don't burn like metal and rocks. If one concludes that I purposely only threw metal and rocks into the fireplace would be the same as saying that the human body or bodies of other animals proves creationism. Just because examples of life forms that didn't fit their environment are gone or few in number (there are still some I suppose) doesn't mean that they didn't exist. Also take into account that there are still many imperfections in the human genetic code; downs syndrome, heart diesase, cancer and other diseases that are genetic or genetically linked. The main difference is that they still allow one to reproduce (since they seem to start later in life) and thus can still be passed on. This isn't meant to disprove God or even the concept that God planned evolution, just the concept that evolution doesn't exist at all.
 
MAJOR spoilers:
our mitochondria are just using us to meet their needs. they use us to reproduce them, which reproduces us too, which makes us feel important, but in reality, it's all about them using us as tools.


sry guyz its true
 
[quote name='Apossum']MAJOR spoilers:
our mitochondria are just using us to meet their needs. they use us to reproduce them, which reproduces us too, which makes us feel important, but in reality, it's all about them using us as tools.


sry guyz its true[/QUOTE]

No
God put them there to make our ATPz, because he didn't want us to manufacture it ourselves! ...Symbiotic-wha?
 
[quote name='Pucker']
If vision, the human eye, dual stereoscopic auto focus 180 degree cameras positioned perfectly at the top of our head just HAPPENED....and every other animals eyes are perfectly placed & tuned to their life....just HAPPENED.....right. This is as likely as your brain suddenly becoming bluetooth compatible. This happened along with all of the millions of processes and systems in our body....they just HAPPENED? Right....
[/QUOTE]

And yet here i sit, wearing glasses for myopia.
 
[quote name='Pucker']
No, to extend my previous example - our eyes are protected in sockets around the armor skull, positioned perfectly to see where we are going. There is no better place on the body....and that's true of every species.[/QUOTE]
Because the species that didn't have their eyes there walked off a cliff and died due to being unable to see where they were going.

Wow, this is fun!

[quote name='Apossum']MAJOR spoilers:
our mitochondria are just using us to meet their needs. they use us to reproduce them, which reproduces us too, which makes us feel important, but in reality, it's all about them using us as tools.


sry guyz its true[/QUOTE]
Oh what was that book series... I remember reading something about this, A Bend in Time maybe? Some good fiction lawlz.
 
[quote name='crystalklear64']


Oh what was that book series... I remember reading something about this, A Bend in Time maybe? Some good fiction lawlz.[/QUOTE]


don't you dare call it fiction!
 
[quote name='polly']Irony FTW. :applause:[/quote]

Where did I use circular reasoning? Do you even know what that means? I wasn't disrespecting the guy when I pointed it out, and I'm definitely not immune from doing it.

This and a few other pissy self righteous posts show that pro-evolution supporters are just as deluded and just as insane as the leagues of wacko Christians who I just happen to be in league with on this issue. They are self righteous in fake spirit and you are self righteous in fake intelligence. Each group is just as bound to their faith, no matter what facts stand before you.
 
[quote name='Pucker']Where did I use circular reasoning? Do you even know what that means? I wasn't disrespecting the guy when I pointed it out, and I'm definitely not immune from doing it.

This and a few other pissy self righteous posts show that pro-evolution supporters are just as deluded and just as insane as the leagues of wacko Christians who I just happen to be in league with on this issue. They are self righteous in fake spirit and you are self righteous in fake intelligence. Each group is just as bound to their faith, no matter what facts stand before you.[/QUOTE]
:rofl:
 
petarded.png
 
I like the "WE DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT LIFE, IT'S TOO COMPLICATED" when we did that little thing called "mapping the human genome" years ago. It may interest you to know that the chimpanzee genome is 98.77% similar to the Human Genome. You can ask scientists that if you don't believe me, but I hear they're in league with Satan.

I wonder if these people have even read a biology book, or if they think science as a whole is a tool of the devil(you know, like women being able to do math)?
 
Reality's Fringe;2916118 said:
I like the "WE DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT LIFE, IT'S TOO COMPLICATED" when we did that little thing called "mapping the human genome" years ago. It may interest you to know that the chimpanzee genome is 98.77% similar to the Human Genome. You can ask scientists that if you don't believe me, but I hear they're in league with Satan.

I wonder if these people have even read a biology book, or if they think science as a whole is a tool of the devil(you know, like women being able to do math)?


:shock:

LIES!
 
PyroGamer, please allow me to open your eyes to the truth. First and foremost, both you and your friend are wrong. Everything you and your friend thought you knew about evolution/creationism are wrong. If you want to know the truth behind life I suggest you read Dianetics by L. Ron Hubbard. Or, find Tom Cruise and ask him, since he's Jesus.

I now proclaim this thread DONE.
 
bread's done
Back
Top