Are Illegal immigrants that bad?

Spending billions to build tin-foil fences along the border is a waste of money.

Deporting illegals is a waste of money.

Giving amnesty to illegals while "securing" the border with a crappy billion dollar fence (which will do nothing whatsoever to stop more illegals coming in) is a waste of money.

Best thing to do: deport criminals. If someone commits a crime, no matter how minor, if they are arrested and do not have legal status, deport them.
 
[quote name='PyroGamer']Best thing to do: deport criminals. If someone commits a crime, no matter how minor, if they are arrested and do not have legal status, deport them.[/QUOTE]

Conjuring up the spirit of Jonathan Swift this afternoon?

I've heard this argument used to counter the "they broke the law coming over here, so they don't deserve to stay" argument. I'm not sure I give either point any credibility.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Conjuring up the spirit of Jonathan Swift this afternoon?[/QUOTE]
I consider it a modest proposal.


By the way, I usually really respect your opinion, what do you suggest?
 
About immigrants? Oh boy...I dunno, frankly. I do support building structures to prevent immigrants from coming north (fences and the like). That will help somewhat.

I also support thorough and severe prosecution of businesses who hire illegal immigrants. "We didn't know" is not satisfactory, IMO. There are means of obtaining documentation to show legal ability to work; a flawed bureaucracy in your hiring department should not spare you HUGE fines.

But I also realize that, if the estimates of the numbers of undocumented immigrants are accurate (10-12 million), then anyone claiming the "round 'em up and deport them" argument should be disqualified from the argument. Frankly, it's impossible. I don't think it's logistically or financially feasible to even deport a quarter of that number, really. So, we must admit we collectively screwed up, rectify those issues (building fences and structures to protect the border), and work from there.

I'd also advocate a moratorium on "cultural" arguments, because I don't find them to be relevant. Now, if we had an influx of British immigrants who insisted on driving on the opposite side of the street, then we'd have a cultural problem on our hands. Having bilingual cereal boxes doesn't bother me in the slightest. Actually, it's great for me, since Galavision has 9 hours of Lucha Libre on every week.

LUCHADORRRRRRRRRRRR~! :lol:
 
[quote name='PyroGamer']

Best thing to do: deport criminals. If someone commits a crime, no matter how minor, if they are arrested and do not have legal status, deport them.[/QUOTE]

I hope they already do this.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Conjuring up the spirit of Jonathan Swift this afternoon?

I've heard this argument used to counter the "they broke the law coming over here, so they don't deserve to stay" argument. I'm not sure I give either point any credibility.[/quote]

I think that's a little unfair. I agree with the things you said in your other post, but what's wrong with deporting an illegal alien who breaks the law again once their here? If they can't come here and be a good, hard working citizen, why should we pay even more to jail them and/or rehabilitate them? This isn't racial for me either. If a canadian comes here illegally and breaks the law, I think they should be deported, too.
 
[quote name='dragonreborn23']I think that's a little unfair. I agree with the things you said in your other post, but what's wrong with deporting an illegal alien who breaks the law again once their here? If they can't come here and be a good, hard working citizen, why should we pay even more to jail them and/or rehabilitate them? This isn't racial for me either. If a canadian comes here illegally and breaks the law, I think they should be deported, too.[/QUOTE]

That's not what I said. The argument people make is that *by virtue of entering the country illegally*, they have broken the law and are thus unsuitable to be made legal citizens. I'm not talking any illegal activity above and beyond the act of coming into the US undocumented.
 
[quote name='Prophit']I went to college in SoCal and a frighteningly large percentage of the young white males have that mentality...I think its part of the culture. I'm also a white male but I grew up in the Bay Area where we have pretty much the most ethnically diverse population in the world, including alot of presumably illegal aliens (though not nearly as many as "the Southlands," as LA news likes to call it,) and I have no problem with them.

And Ive got a question...how the fuck are illegals getting government sponsered housing & wellfare? I highly doubt Uncle Sam is giving some guy money when you know damn well if he showed up in a wellfare line the INS would be there immediately.

Finally, I think you guys are delusional if you think you're better off with the creme de la creme of other nations storming in. Unless you're all doctors and nuclear physicists, that would make YOU THE UNDERCLASS. Society requires a pyramid like heirchy for the upper echelons to be able to enjoy the trappings of wealth, without a large base the economy would be a total disaster...so while my concern with unrestrained immigration is population saturation at some point (trust me theres gonna be some tough times ahead in the next 50 years or so with the current birth rate and the worlds resources) we are far from there yet and we still need unskilled, dirt cheap work to fuel the economy...like the one guy said fuck paying $7 for a head of lettuce...which is exactly what you'll be paying if a bunch of highschool graduate American fuckheads getting union wages are the ones picking the lettuce.[/quote]

Ummm...yeah...so basically you're ok with American companies importing dirt poor Mexican slaves to do shit work so that the middle class can purchase cheap lettuce? Hehe, nice.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']That's not what I said. The argument people make is that *by virtue of entering the country illegally*, they have broken the law and are thus unsuitable to be made legal citizens. I'm not talking any illegal activity above and beyond the act of coming into the US undocumented.[/quote]

Ahh...sorry. I guess it's a misunderstanding. The quote you took from Pyrogamer stated that if someone is arrested for commiting a crime and THEN you find out they are also illegally in the U.S., you could then ship them back to their country of origin.

I understand your point, though. No question, if I was living in poverty, I would do whatever it took to get my family here, too. That still doesn't make it right, but I understand it.
 
[quote name='PyroGamer']Spending billions to build tin-foil fences along the border is a waste of money.

Deporting illegals is a waste of money.

Giving amnesty to illegals while "securing" the border with a crappy billion dollar fence (which will do nothing whatsoever to stop more illegals coming in) is a waste of money.

Best thing to do: deport criminals. If someone commits a crime, no matter how minor, if they are arrested and do not have legal status, deport them.[/QUOTE]

That plan would do the criminals a huge favor. It's pathetically easy to get across the border so the criminals would just come right back. So in essence it would give the illegal immigrant criminals a free pass to do whatever they wanted without the threat of jail time.

Deporting them would just be a minor inconvenience to them.
 
[quote name='Puzznic']That plan would do the criminals a huge favor. It's pathetically easy to get across the border so the criminals would just come right back. So in essence it would give the illegal immigrant criminals a free pass to do whatever they wanted without the threat of jail time.

Deporting them would just be a minor inconvenience to them.[/QUOTE]
I guess we should just shoot them, then. xD
 
[quote name='Prophit']Finally, I think you guys are delusional if you think you're better off with the creme de la creme of other nations storming in. Unless you're all doctors and nuclear physicists, that would make YOU THE UNDERCLASS. Society requires a pyramid like heirchy for the upper echelons to be able to enjoy the trappings of wealth, without a large base the economy would be a total disaster...so while my concern with unrestrained immigration is population saturation at some point (trust me theres gonna be some tough times ahead in the next 50 years or so with the current birth rate and the worlds resources)[/QUOTE]In 50 years we'll have more pressing matters at hand... like the emminent destruction of mankind.

http://www.amazon.com/Our-Final-Hour-Environmental-Century/dp/0465068626
 
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one that was happy with the bill and wishes it passed.

Amnesty isn't so awful. Give them a path to citizenship, make them pay backed taxes, make them pay other fees, use those fees for increasing border security...
 
[quote name='Koggit']
Amnesty isn't so awful. Give them a path to citizenship, make them pay backed taxes, make them pay other fees, use those fees for increasing border security...[/QUOTE]

This issue I have with amnesty is that there are so many people trying to get into the country legally including a few personal friends, going through all the red tape, paying the fees, jumping through all the hoops that is just doesn't seem right to me to reward those that opted to dodge the system.
 
U.S. citizenship is a privilege, not a right. The current bill is selling away citizenship for $$. They need to modify the 14th amendment, due to the fact that some illegals some here just to give birth for social services, and they know the feds wont kick them out. What is also a good approach is to take away the social servies, medical services, and education from illegals and their children. This may act as a deterrent for them to come here.
 
[quote name='dopa345']This issue I have with amnesty is that there are so many people trying to get into the country legally including a few personal friends, going through all the red tape, paying the fees, jumping through all the hoops that is just doesn't seem right to me to reward those that opted to dodge the system.[/QUOTE]

It's not rewarding them... it's forgiving them, and giving them a second chance to go through the red tape. What wouldn't be fair is to leave them living illegally in our country, not paying taxes, while your friends have to go through the red tape... and realistically, those are the only two options.
 
I think that most people would agree on a common-sense proposal, or at least could be persuaded to compromise on one. The problem is that this is an emotional issue for a lot of people. But who would not agree with this?

1. Secure the border. Increase the size of the Border Patrol (already underway), construct a fence where necessary, increase purchase of necessary technology or other equipment to stop illegal border crossings. No, we're not going to get to 100% quickly, but I think if we really tried we could get good enough to stop the flow for the most part.

2. Register all illegals and give them ID cards after a background check. Make sure they know that if they haven't committed crimes in this country (other than being here illegally) or have a serious prior criminal record we aren't going to deport them. It will also be necessary to have this ID to work. Create a resource for employers to use to check on someone's legal status using this ID so they have no excuse for hiring illegals with no ID.

3. All those from a certain point forward without an ID card who aren't citizens will be referred to ICE and deported. This will require also local and state law enforcement to cooperate with ICE (not happening in many places now) to kick out criminals, gang members, etc. Make sure it is as difficult as possible to live here without being here legally.

4. For those who want to stay, they must pay back taxes and possibly fines for their illegal entry. For those who want to become citizens, create an opportunity for that as long as those people have followed all the rules, but they will have to wait in line behind those waiting to come into this country and become citizens legally.

5. Increase legal immigration. A guest worker program is not needed. Right now we have huge illegal immigration and small legal immigration. Since under this plan illegal immigration will be drastically reduced, allow more legal immigration for those who have no criminal record and follow the rules. Put them ahead of those who entered illegally in the queue for citizenship.

I think this is the realistic solution. Obviously #1 and #2 are quite challenging logistically, but they are necessary to solve this problem in any solution if you ask me.
 
[quote name='Koggit']It's not rewarding them... it's forgiving them, and giving them a second chance to go through the red tape. What wouldn't be fair is to leave them living illegally in our country, not paying taxes, while your friends have to go through the red tape... and realistically, those are the only two options.[/QUOTE]

If they have to go to the back of the line, I can live with that. My impression of the current proposal though was that they pay a fine and they automatically get legal status.
 
I just have one question what do we do with the illegal parents giving birth to "american citizens"? No one wants to deal with this question cause there isnt a right answer.
 
What do we do with the illegal parents giving birth to "american citizens"? These are all tough questions that i dont want to answer.
 
I was watching PBS and they were intervewing Nancy Pelosi. She was talking about the immigration bill and to me it came off as kind of alarming. She was talking about talk radio, which she dubbed "hate radio" and said that those people were uninformed about the bill, and said people who were opposing the bill were people not "diverse enough" or something like that. So basically if you have any opposition to the immigration bill, you are obviously a racist "conservative" who hates Mexicans and loves his/her talk radio, or you are not "diverse enough".

These kind of things along with the Left wanting to impose the Fairness Doctrine again on talk radio is kind of alarming. It's like if you have any views against the Left, whether it be global warming, etc, they immedietly shut you down and call you a right wing nut. Granted some on the Right go overboard with the "if you don't support the war your Un-american etc", but is talk radio that much a threat? I mean how many listeners does it? I doubt there is 200 million people listening to talk radio. It has to be a small percentage. Everyone complains about free speech being taken away but I haven't really heard anyone talking about this. But of course, if you have anything negative to say about the immigration bill or anything that the Left deems true, you are a gun toting-racist-Confederate flag waving-close minded-Republican-"conservative".

I was thinking. What if there were 15 million undocumented, illegal, whatever Muslims in the country? How quick do you think things would get done? In this day and age I think that would freak a lot of people out. I'll probably get flamed for this post but I just wanted to comment on it.
 
Great thinking, defend one stereotype with another, brilliant!


[quote name='BodyShot213']As general as my comments were, they were actually catered towards the lazy bitches that abuse the system. The welfare mothers that keep reproducing in order to get more money from the government.[/quote]
 
The problem with immigration today,...illegal or otherwise is, this is NOT the 19th Century anymore. We are no longer a fledgling young country seeking to build its infrastructure and identity. Sure, through a couple centuries of immigration, we have successfully built this country into the most industrialized nation on this planet. However, we cannot continue to take in the whole world. We are already at 300 million population (that we know of). It has been projected that within the next 25 years, the population of this country will exceed 400 million. Do any of you commute to work in a major city? Can our highways tolerate another 33% increase in traffic? Where are we going to acquire the resources (water, energy, healthcare, teachers, schools, prisons, etc.) to support these people? It's not our fault that the rest of the world is a freakin' scumhole. We just cannot continue to take in the whole world. Their problems are fast becoming our problems. Enough is enough, close the borders now!
 
Its not just the number of people thats the issue. Its just how inefficiently we handle all our resources.

How many car companies are there? How many models does each company have? How many do they make per year? How often do they release new models?

Look at a simple bag of chips. Do you know how many different layers there are to just one bag? (7 as I recall) And then you have all the chemicals needed to color it to make it pretty enough to be purchased.

How about a 360 box? How much do you think would be saved fiscally and economically if they just packed them in a plain brown box like a fridge?

Does everyone need to buy a new car every 1, 2 or even 5 years? Does everyone even need to buy a car at all?

If more people moved closer to work or got over the "busses are for the poor" mindset, the roads wouldn't be near as congested.


[quote name='Jer De Go']The problem with immigration today,...illegal or otherwise is, this is NOT the 19th Century anymore. We are no longer a fledgling young country seeking to build its infrastructure and identity. Sure, through a couple centuries of immigration, we have successfully built this country into the most industrialized nation on this planet. However, we cannot continue to take in the whole world. We are already at 300 million population (that we know of). It has been projected that within the next 25 years, the population of this country will exceed 400 million. Do any of you commute to work in a major city? Can our highways tolerate another 33% increase in traffic? Where are we going to acquire the resources (water, energy, healthcare, teachers, schools, prisons, etc.) to support these people? It's not our fault that the rest of the world is a freakin' scumhole. We just cannot continue to take in the whole world. Their problems are fast becoming our problems. Enough is enough, close the borders now![/quote]
 
[quote name='Jer De Go']The problem with immigration today,...illegal or otherwise is, this is NOT the 19th Century anymore. We are no longer a fledgling young country seeking to build its infrastructure and identity. Sure, through a couple centuries of immigration, we have successfully built this country into the most industrialized nation on this planet. However, we cannot continue to take in the whole world. We are already at 300 million population (that we know of). It has been projected that within the next 25 years, the population of this country will exceed 400 million. Do any of you commute to work in a major city? Can our highways tolerate another 33% increase in traffic? Where are we going to acquire the resources (water, energy, healthcare, teachers, schools, prisons, etc.) to support these people? It's not our fault that the rest of the world is a freakin' scumhole. We just cannot continue to take in the whole world. Their problems are fast becoming our problems. Enough is enough, close the borders now![/QUOTE]

1. If you think that it is as simple as 1/3 population increase equals 1/3 more traffic, especially in today's information economy, you're nuts.

2. Some of these resources you're talking about will be provided by immigrants, such as farm labor and high-tech experts (look up H1-B visa sometime). And who do you think is going to pay your Social Security when you retire, even the fraction available at that point since politicans are too scared to fix the system?

3. The rest of the world is not a "scumhole." What a stupid thing to say.

4. We are not taking in the entire world now. We do have an illegal immigration problem. We need to take care this problem. However, our legal immigration levels are lower than they have been in a long time. What we need to do is stop illegal immigration and increase legal immigration to higher levels (not let everyone in of course, but be more reasonable about it).
 
illegal immigration is bad for a number of reason. you cant really look at it on a case by case personal level because theres too many coming in at once. the reality is alot of them come here , dont pay taxes aside from sales tax on items they use they send their kids to schools for free and use medical services for free and this is a drain on the economy. i know alot fo peopel go to the whole they do jobs others wont do scenario but thats a cop out. peopel would do those jobs if paid fairly for the work and illegal work power is only a big issue in certain states.

not to mention the criminal element that crosses the border commits crimes and then runs back across the border never to serve jail time and as you have it mexico wont allow us to extradite those criminals that go back to mexico. are all illegals bad no im sure some come here just to have a better life but that comes at a price.

the border needs to be buuilt up and protected but it wont happen because america has been sold out from under us and is being sold out from under us. america wont be america for much longer and before you know it english wont be the primary language. its a shit situation to have less rights than peopel who come here illegally but tis a mixed bag becase yes ive known illegals who work hard and are great people but you have to get hard on this stuff before it gets out of hand. but ti wont happen because the govt is lazy and unfocused and too many palms are being greased for anything good to happen.

and anyone who posts something about grammar loves gay butt sex with rabid clowns. i know i have spellign mistakes but i could care less.
 
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