Arizona cuts the budget and people die.

Exactly, it isn't "profiteering by evil insurance companies" that costs so damn much, it's the actual procedures. Well, that and the $17 for a box of tissues if you're having an extended stay.
 
[quote name='nasum']Exactly, it isn't "profiteering by evil insurance companies" that costs so damn much, it's the actual procedures. Well, that and the $17 for a box of tissues if you're having an extended stay.[/QUOTE]

I would say it is both and that insurance companies are part of the reason costs are being driven up. My topic in no way meant to state that insurance companies were not a MAJOR part of the problem, they are just not the sole problem.
 
Just pulled out one of the comments from the story.


[quote name='Outraged Oakland']
This is NOT Arizona's fault.

It's NOT the government's fault, Republican or Democrat.

This is the American public not asking why our healthcare costs are spiraling.

Randy Shepard should consider moving to Europe or Asia. Seriously. He has a better shot at affordable transplant surgery there. Because it's too expensive in this country.

We HAVE to get costs under control. That means:

a.) MORE of us have to pay out of pocket for procedures so we don't overuse the system.
b.) ALL of us have to have reasonable preparation for death/terminal illness.
c.) ALL of us have to recognize that we CANNOT pay illegal aliens' care.
d.) ALL of us have to accept that doctors/nurses/technicians pay ARE OVER THE TOP

The liberal answer to health care? More money. More money.

Well, even if every billionaire gave their entire fortune, it wouldn't be enough. So we have to break apart the system.[/quote]

--------

I find it funny that he attacks a goal of capitalism (the medical community making as much money as possible), while at the same time saying capitalism is the solution (Buy more so the price will go down).

Edit-fixed so it is not a confusing.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I love the doctors are paid too much line of thought.
"Hey doc, you're about to cut me open and play with parts of my anatomy that I don't even begin to understand. Do you think maybe you could do that for 10-15% less?"
There are certain people in this world that I want to be paid very well, doctors and pilots are towards the top of that list...
 
Alright, here we go with the "it's the doctors that make too much" argument to be followed shortly by "it's those damn trial lawyers and their frivolous medical malpractice lawsuits" argument. Can't wait, should be fun.
 
[quote name='RedvsBlue']Alright, here we go with the "it's the doctors that make too much" argument to be followed shortly by "it's those damn trial lawyers and their frivolous medical malpractice lawsuits" argument. Can't wait, should be fun.[/QUOTE]

Do people here believe that?

I put the responsibility solely on the shoulders of the insurance industry.
 
I was just wondering what those doctors make on average per transplant, wouldn't that be a good indicator of whether or not the doctor is taking the money or the insurance company, or whoever?
 
[quote name='Knoell']What is the average salary for doctors who do transplant procedures?[/QUOTE]

Entry-Level
According to Payscale.com, the national average salary in 2009 in the United States for a surgeon with one to four years of experience ranged from $118,810 to $242,635.
Mid-Level
The national average salary in 2009 for a surgeon with five to nine years of experience ranged from $149,640 to $282,521.
Experienced
The national average salary in 2009 for a surgeon with 10 to 19 years of experience ranged from $148,184 to $287,902.


Read more: The Average Salary of a Surgeon | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/facts_5489784_average-salary-surgeon.html#ixzz175YnjcW2


So I'm guessing that the doctor does more than one transplant per year, hell probably two a month at a minimum. So roughly $8,500 per transplant if you take the median pay and divide it by 24 per year. That's 4.22% of the total cost of the procedure.
 
[quote name='nasum']Entry-Level
According to Payscale.com, the national average salary in 2009 in the United States for a surgeon with one to four years of experience ranged from $118,810 to $242,635.
Mid-Level
The national average salary in 2009 for a surgeon with five to nine years of experience ranged from $149,640 to $282,521.
Experienced
The national average salary in 2009 for a surgeon with 10 to 19 years of experience ranged from $148,184 to $287,902.


Read more: The Average Salary of a Surgeon | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/facts_5489784_average-salary-surgeon.html#ixzz175YnjcW2


So I'm guessing that the doctor does more than one transplant per year, hell probably two a month at a minimum. So roughly $8,500 per transplant if you take the median pay and divide it by 24 per year. That's 4.22% of the total cost of the procedure.[/QUOTE]

That salary number for surgeons is incredibly misleading, they may make over $100,000 a year but their student loan payments will eat up a good chunk of that. That also doesn't take into account the years before that where they are making less than half of that and working 75 hour weeks.


There's a reason why health insurance companies are among the most profitable in the US...
 
[quote name='RedvsBlue']That salary number for surgeons is incredibly misleading, they may make over $100,000 a year but their student loan payments will eat up a good chunk of that. That also doesn't take into account the years before that where they are making less than half of that and working 75 hour weeks.


There's a reason why health insurance companies are among the most profitable in the US...[/QUOTE]

I call bull on this argument. Anybody with advanced degrees takes on loads of debt, but professions like materials scientists make around 80-90 grand a year and still need to pay back loans comparable to some doctors.
 
Its crazy that people that are high up in the insurance industry make 100s of times more then Drs. One person saves lives and works incredibly long hours, the other ruins lives in his cushy job and is paid millions for the joy. Dr's should make that kind of money, I actually thought they made far more. The years and years they put into their degree, the long hours they work and the incredible pressure of their job, they deserve to make at least half a mill a year.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']I call bull on this argument. Anybody with advanced degrees takes on loads of debt, but professions like materials scientists make around 80-90 grand a year and still need to pay back loans comparable to some doctors.[/QUOTE]

It's not "bull." The average medical student graduates with over $200,000 in debt.
 
http://www.medrounds.org/medical-answers/2006/05/what-is-average-student-loan-debt-for.html

Over 150 grand is about 25% of new doctors, probably a little more in recent years. So I find 200,000 to be the average to either be heavily skewed towards one end or your data is fishy.

This source has only one school that has 200,000 average in debt, while most of the list is around 150 and below.
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-medical-schools/debt

and this story says it is around 139,000
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/06/fact-check-no-2-average-med-school-debt.html

Even the AMA has the average pegged at 156,000 grand, steep but 44 grand shy of 200 grand

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/abo...on/advocacy-policy/medical-student-debt.shtml

Average law school tuition is not that far behind that and nobody gives the same excuse for why attorneys are allowed to have high salaries. Even though the difference in debt, at least in the UC system, is about 15-20 thousand more, and the debt for other health areas such as dentists are comparable to law school and are only a few thousand more than business school.

http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/accountability/index/39

So yes, in my opinion it is a bull argument based off of false information.
 
If I was a doctor in Arizona, I'd be eviscerating my office in a fit of rage right now. Not a single thing would be left unbroken.
 
The Republican governor has in turn blamed “Obamacare,” meaning the federal health care overhaul, for the transplant cuts even though the Arizona vote came in March, before President Obama signed that bill into law.
Click to expand...
I'm sure it's still his fault somehow, everything else is.
 
[quote name='camoor']So Palin gets her deathsquads and gets to pin the blame on the Dems?

:wall:[/QUOTE]
Yup, and her side is the one that instituted them. Not that any dumb cons will admit that or take any responsibility for it.
 
[quote name='dohdough']Yup, and her side is the one that instituted them. Not that any dumb cons will admit that or take any responsibility for it.[/QUOTE]

Sad thing is that they complained that they do not want health professionals deciding what services people will receive, that it was too much power....yet they let Senators have just that power in this case.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']Sad thing is that they complained that they do not want health professionals deciding what services people will receive, that it was too much power....yet they let Senators have just that power in this case.[/QUOTE]

But they're politicians so their decisions mean more...

(sarcasm, BTW)
 
I don't think that includes college debt. Trust me, being a doctor myself, most of my colleagues that graduated within the last 5 years, had around $200,000 in total educational debt.

Even so, your number, $156,000 isn't exactly chump change either. Also keep in mind that, doctors on graduating have to do at least 3 years of residency training (most do at least 5 years), which they are making around $40,000-$50,000 year (really below minimum wage if you convert this to an hourly basis) so most have to defer their loans payments which adds to the principal. Law grads only need to go to school for 3 years and immediate practice law making their six -figure salaries.

Also if you look at the breakdown as to how much surgeons are compensated for their procedures, they actually get very little in terms of the total reimbursement, the bulk of payment going to cover the immense cost of keeping these patients alive pre and post-op.

The bigger picture issue is that we have a "problem" in that our ability to treat illness has surpassed our ability to pay for it. With a finite amount of financial resources, these tough decisions will have to be made. Just wait until this carries over into cancer treatment. There are drugs coming out that cost tens of thousands per year and prolong life on average of 3-6 months and a tough cost-benefit decision will have to be made on that.

[quote name='cindersphere']http://www.medrounds.org/medical-answers/2006/05/what-is-average-student-loan-debt-for.html

Over 150 grand is about 25% of new doctors, probably a little more in recent years. So I find 200,000 to be the average to either be heavily skewed towards one end or your data is fishy.

This source has only one school that has 200,000 average in debt, while most of the list is around 150 and below.
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-medical-schools/debt

and this story says it is around 139,000
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/06/fact-check-no-2-average-med-school-debt.html

Even the AMA has the average pegged at 156,000 grand, steep but 44 grand shy of 200 grand

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/abo...on/advocacy-policy/medical-student-debt.shtml

Average law school tuition is not that far behind that and nobody gives the same excuse for why attorneys are allowed to have high salaries. Even though the difference in debt, at least in the UC system, is about 15-20 thousand more, and the debt for other health areas such as dentists are comparable to law school and are only a few thousand more than business school.

http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/accountability/index/39

So yes, in my opinion it is a bull argument based off of false information.[/QUOTE]
 
[quote name='dopa345']aw grads only need to go to school for 3 years and immediate practice law making their six -figure salaries.
.[/QUOTE]

Not always. Sure, if a law grad gets into a big law firm they'll make that six figure salary but if they go into any type of public law (prosecution, public defender), a judicial clerkship, or something along those lines they'll be looking at the same $40-50k a year and long hours that a medical resident would have.
 
[quote name='dopa345']I don't think that includes college debt. Trust me, being a doctor myself, most of my colleagues that graduated within the last 5 years, had around $200,000 in total educational debt.

Even so, your number, $156,000 isn't exactly chump change either. Also keep in mind that, doctors on graduating have to do at least 3 years of residency training (most do at least 5 years), which they are making around $40,000-$50,000 year (really below minimum wage if you convert this to an hourly basis) so most have to defer their loans payments which adds to the principal. Law grads only need to go to school for 3 years and immediate practice law making their six -figure salaries.

Also if you look at the breakdown as to how much surgeons are compensated for their procedures, they actually get very little in terms of the total reimbursement, the bulk of payment going to cover the immense cost of keeping these patients alive pre and post-op.

The bigger picture issue is that we have a "problem" in that our ability to treat illness has surpassed our ability to pay for it. With a finite amount of financial resources, these tough decisions will have to be made. Just wait until this carries over into cancer treatment. There are drugs coming out that cost tens of thousands per year and prolong life on average of 3-6 months and a tough cost-benefit decision will have to be made on that.[/QUOTE]

The figures I have provided do include all debt load, though I am unsure about if other debts, such as credit cards is counted. If you want to disagree with my numbers provide some yourself that are not based on solely experience. Beyond this, doctors are not the only salaried employees in our society that work so many hours, their hourly wage is below minimum wage, and this trend is even higher today.

Even so while doctors do have high debts load, lawyers and other professions do not enter as secure as employment markets as doctors, nor are they seeing large increases in projected future employment. Especially now that, picking on lawyers a bit more, the market is shrinking and not able to keep up with recent grads causing lawyers to forgo their law school and become para legals. While this can be partially blamed upon the lawyer, so too should the doctor not be given a break from both high tuition and high overhead to practice considering both were known results even before applying to med school. The argument, in my opinion, is unfairly skewed to allowing doctors to have a free ride in the how much services cost. They knew the costs/risks/benefits and took the debt load and deserve no more pity than even a undergrad that only takes out 23 grand for a BS/BA. Don't give doctors the free ride, fix the system that you believe fucks doctors, and apparently you, in the rectum.

Secondly I agree with you about the more pressing matter is how to modernize the medical situation so that many more people an have access to medical care and not be financially screwed, nor are allowed to die due to a shortage of funds. This will involve more than just doctors, who also have a history of expense, and be focused both on the insurance companies, government, and drug companies.

I am too busy right now to fix all my grammatical mistakes, so please bear with them.
 
I laughed when you said that technicians and nurses make too much. Do YOU want to assist your surgeon at 3am? 40K a year (with 13 years experience) is too much for that? Really?
 
Meanwhile I guarantee you that the people running the hospital/executives are making several hundred thousand to several million a year. That is the problem with this country and in part our economy right now. Republicans seem to think that so many different hard working professions need to do more, make less or are paid properly, when meanwhile people sitting in comfy executive positions make as much as some small countries do. It is long past time people putting in the long hours doing the hardest jobs are rewarded more. Do not get me wrong, I understand that executives work hard too and that they for the most part put long years in to their schooling to get where they are, however it does not mean they pay is not out of wack. When the president of a company is pulling in 4 mill to 400 mill a year while the average line worker makes $25,000-$35,000 doing back breaking labor something is seriously wrong.

So maybe instead of attacking the Drs people who put in the craziest hours and provide one of the best services in our society, people like Cinder should be looking to the executives.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I laughed when you said that technicians and nurses make too much. Do YOU want to assist your surgeon at 3am? 40K a year (with 13 years experience) is too much for that? Really?[/QUOTE]
They should be making what the market dictates...herpa derpa...
 
[quote name='depascal22']I laughed when you said that technicians and nurses make too much. Do YOU want to assist your surgeon at 3am? 40K a year (with 13 years experience) is too much for that? Really?[/QUOTE]

Was this directed at me or the other guy? If it is pointed at me I never said that, nor implied it.

[quote name='MSI Magus']Meanwhile I guarantee you that the people running the hospital/executives are making several hundred thousand to several million a year. That is the problem with this country and in part our economy right now. Republicans seem to think that so many different hard working professions need to do more, make less or are paid properly, when meanwhile people sitting in comfy executive positions make as much as some small countries do. It is long past time people putting in the long hours doing the hardest jobs are rewarded more. Do not get me wrong, I understand that executives work hard too and that they for the most part put long years in to their schooling to get where they are, however it does not mean they pay is not out of wack. When the president of a company is pulling in 4 mill to 400 mill a year while the average line worker makes $25,000-$35,000 doing back breaking labor something is seriously wrong.

So maybe instead of attacking the Drs people who put in the craziest hours and provide one of the best services in our society, people like Cinder should be looking to the executives.[/QUOTE]


First I never said I wasn't against the pay of CEO's nor hospital executive, this subject had never been broached and you are reaching for a way to attack my stance with red herring. Personally I am against exorbitant pay to executive staff as well, and believe the entire medical structure needs to modernize, either on it's own or with government assistance.

Second I agree they do provide a needed service for society, and am not attacking what they do. However there are many people who put in crazy hours and work hard jobs to provide you with what you need to function in this world, from the electrician who need to repair fallen electric lines in a storm, road pavers at all hours in the night paving roads on a high way, firefighter, police officers, fisherman, sanitation workers, coal miner, and oil drillers all perform needed jobs for our society and have crazy schedules as well.

Thirdly, my posts were not outright attacks against doctors, but an attack on the the whole "doctors need a high salary to offset their college debts". They chose the high paying job despite the debt load, fine and good for them for either being altruistic or motivated by a doctors high pay grade. Just don't bitch about the debt that will be payed back in about a decade leaving the doctor with a job with an inelastic demand and some of the best job security in the nation. It is a hard path to take with a great reward at the end.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']We HAVE to get costs under control. That means:

a.) MORE of us have to pay out of pocket for procedures so we don't overuse the system.
b.) ALL of us have to have reasonable preparation for death/terminal illness.
c.) ALL of us have to recognize that we CANNOT pay illegal aliens' care.
d.) ALL of us have to accept that doctors/nurses/technicians pay ARE OVER THE TOP.[/QUOTE]

Are these your words or are you quoting someone else?
 
[quote name='cindersphere']http://www.medrounds.org/medical-answers/2006/05/what-is-average-student-loan-debt-for.html

Over 150 grand is about 25% of new doctors, probably a little more in recent years. So I find 200,000 to be the average to either be heavily skewed towards one end or your data is fishy.

This source has only one school that has 200,000 average in debt, while most of the list is around 150 and below.
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-medical-schools/debt

and this story says it is around 139,000
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2009/06/fact-check-no-2-average-med-school-debt.html

Even the AMA has the average pegged at 156,000 grand, steep but 44 grand shy of 200 grand

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/abo...on/advocacy-policy/medical-student-debt.shtml

Average law school tuition is not that far behind that and nobody gives the same excuse for why attorneys are allowed to have high salaries. Even though the difference in debt, at least in the UC system, is about 15-20 thousand more, and the debt for other health areas such as dentists are comparable to law school and are only a few thousand more than business school.

http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/accountability/index/39

So yes, in my opinion it is a bull argument based off of false information.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, that means that the doctor's pay (which was my original example) as a portion of the cost of the $200k operation is even less as a percentage.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Are these your words or are you quoting someone else?[/QUOTE]

Those were not my comments, they were a comment from some random dude in the original story. I just thought the comment was funny because his argument was the only way to make it cheaper was to "buy" more health and slash doctors pay, while hating on the "liberal" approach of buying more health for everyone. Personally I know some techs and nurses and I believe they earn every cent they make, and depending upon local circumstances some should definitely be making more money.
 
my bro in law says hes making 250k as a Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist. Less school more pay than a surgeon apparently.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']Those were not my comments, they were a comment from some random dude in the original story. I just thought the comment was funny because his argument was the only way to make it cheaper was to "buy" more health and slash doctors pay, while hating on the "liberal" approach of buying more health for everyone. Personally I know some techs and nurses and I believe they earn every cent they make, and depending upon local circumstances some should definitely be making more money.[/QUOTE]

All good, man. My apologies for lumping you in with random dude in the story.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
bread's done
Back
Top