Atlas Shrugged...today?

[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']They are.

Before somebody accuses me of flipflopping, I'm libertarian, but I recognize most people don't understand the concept of playing fair.[/quote]

Honestly, if everybody played fair I'd be a libertarian too. Or maybe a communist...really if everyone was nice and never took advantage of others then it wouldn't really matter either way.

But since that isn't true I'd rather go with something in-between.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']They are.

Before somebody accuses me of flipflopping, I'm libertarian, but I recognize most people don't understand the concept of playing fair.[/QUOTE]

FoC, you have shown repeatedly that you are capable of rational thought and reason. That puts you in the top 3% of Libertarians.

BTW, what you posted about no one liking an extreme hypothetical? There is no way in hell you should grant him that as Atlas Shrugged etc. are nothing but an even more ridiculous hypothetical.
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']First of all, doing this is impossible in any modern economy, and it has never happened in 10,000 years of recorded human history (unless you count government hoarding/price controls, etc). Secondly, even if it COULD happen, why would anybody hoard it? In a capitalist economy the hoarder would have every incentive to SELL the water for a tremendous profit. If they refuse to sell, there would be an incredibly lucrative market waiting for the first ambitious person to take advantage of. Supply/demand holes do not last long in any free society. Someone always steps up to fill them, and in your scenario the first entrepreneur to find another water source and satisfy public demand would make a FORTUNE.
[/QUOTE]
Even though I mostly agree with you, I think the argument against what you said there is that society very well might suffer during the hording period as prices skyrocketed for a necessity until a strong enough competitor came along.

[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']
How about NiMH? Chevron owns the patents to the battery. They also make a lot of money from oil. They refuse to sell large NiMH batteries for use in electric cars. An electric car with NiMH could store up to 70kWh of energy. If the car is optimized, the car (with a very strong tailwind) could get 420 miles per charge and satisfy almost all consumer needs. (In the real world, it's 120-200 miles per charge.)

By suppressing the technology, they have led to more pollution from tailpipes and ensured profit with the higher cost of gasoline.

And ... the government turns a blind eye to it for the last decade because they are playing by the rules.[/QUOTE]

That's a shitty situation but the really big question is - where is the competition? Why is this one type of battery been the only viable solution for 10+ years?

Of course, I believe in far more nefarious and draconian conspiracies involving new tech which the government is a big part of.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']That's a shitty situation but the really big question is - where is the competition? Why is this one type of battery been the only viable solution for 10+ years?

Of course, I believe in far more nefarious and draconian conspiracies involving new tech which the government is a big part of.[/quote]

The only real competitor is Lithium Ion. Until they get it to stop blowing up and the number of recharges matches NiMH, it won't work for vehicles.

Once Lithium Ion is perfected, NiMH will go the way of the horse buggy.

Of course, Chevron could always buy the patents to that new battery technology or whatever comes out and our grandchildren will be killing each other for the last drop of gasoline.
 
I skipped 3 pages of this thread, so excuse me if it's been said already, but Ayn Rand is the one of the worst writers of the 20th century, hands down. Her characters are awful caricatures of actual people, much less human beings. She has a utilitarian style of prose that lacks any sort of personality or wit and her books are about as entertaining to read as stereo instructions.

I will give her this, she found a way to work though her obvious grudge against socialism (her family was chased out of their upper-class digs in Russia during the socialist revolution), granted she works it out with a sledgehammer — devoid of subtlety or nuance — but she does work it out.
 
[quote name='SpazX']
It seems to me that the less power the government has over large businesses the more power that the large businesses will have over the government. That's how it has worked historically, anyway. I think it's a better idea to try to keep a balance and that requires giving the government some power in the economy.[/QUOTE]

Spaz, that is not how the relationship between government and large businesses works in the real world, no matter what they taught us in high school. Large businesses always try to have power over the government because the government has power that they want. It's like throwing food to animals and watching them all scurry to it. Lobbyists camp out in DC and buy political favors, like special subsidies for large companies. But if the government didn't have the power to hand out subsidies in the first place, lobbying for them would serve no purpose and would disappear.

In other words, the less power the government has, the less useful it is for large businesses to have power over the government. If the government couldn't tax, borrow, and spend at will, do you think we'd have as many lobbyists and as much corporate welfare as we do today?

You (along with many in this thread and most progressives) view government and big business as almost always being at odds with each other, with the government protecting everybody from big business, when in reality they usually work together instead to further their interests. This would rightly be called fascism if that word didn't immediately conjure up images of jackboots and funny-looking mustaches.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']:cry: Nobody likes ridiculously extreme hypothetical situations. Fair enough.

How about NiMH? Chevron owns the patents to the battery. They also make a lot of money from oil. They refuse to sell large NiMH batteries for use in electric cars. An electric car with NiMH could store up to 70kWh of energy. If the car is optimized, the car (with a very strong tailwind) could get 420 miles per charge and satisfy almost all consumer needs. (In the real world, it's 120-200 miles per charge.)

By suppressing the technology, they have led to more pollution from tailpipes and ensured profit with the higher cost of gasoline.

And ... the government turns a blind eye to it for the last decade because they are playing by the rules.[/QUOTE]

FoC, if you're a libertarian you should be able to find the potential flaws (I count 4) in your hypothetical. Hint: A Randian would be unlikely to detect any of them.
 
[quote name='rickonker']FoC, if you're a libertarian you should be able to find the potential flaws (I count 4) in your hypothetical. Hint: A Randian would be unlikely to detect any of them.[/quote]

The NiMH/Chevron scenario is reality, not hypothetical.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']The NiMH/Chevron scenario is reality, not hypothetical.[/QUOTE]
Oh I know, what I meant as a hypothetical is that same scenario in a free market.
 
foc, your Chevron hypothetical reminds me forecefully of the Rearden Metal case in Atlas Shrugged..with you taking the point of view of the bureaucrats. In the story, a businessman named Hank Rearden spends 10 years of his life developing a strong and lightweight metal for use in industry. The product is wildly successful and when Rearden refuses to sell to the government before his private customers, they end up basically pointing a gun to his head demanding he turn over the patent for the public good..

They bring him up on some vague "acting against the public interest" charges and bring him to trial. Here is an excerpt from the courtroom scene:

The newspapers had snarled that the cause of the country's troubles, as this case demonstrated, was the selfish greed of rich industrialists; that it was men like Hank Rearden who were to blame for the shrinking diet, the falling temperature and the cracking roofs in the homes of the nation; that if it had not been for men who broke regulations and hampered the government's plans, prosperity would have been achieved long ago; and that a man like Hank Rearden was prompted by nothing but the profit motive. This last was stated without explanation or elaboration, as if the words "profit motive" were the self-evident brand of ultimate evil.

The crowd remembered that these same newspapers, less than two years ago, had screamed that the production of Rearden Metal should be forbidden, because its producer was endangering people's lives for the sake of his greed; they remembered that the man in grey had ridden in the cab of the first engine to run over a track of his own Metal; and that he was now on trial for the greedy crime of withholding from the public a load of the Metal which it had been his greedy crime to offer in the public market.

According to the procedure established by directives, cases of this kind were not tried by a jury, but by a panel of three judges appointed by the Bureau of Economic Planning and National Resources; the procedure, the directives had stated, was to be informal and democratic. The judge's bench had been removed from the old Philadelphia courtroom for this occasion, and replaced by a table on a wooden platform; it gave the room an atmosphere suggesting the kind of meeting where a presiding body puts something over on a mentally retarded membership.

One of the judges, acting as prosecutor, had read the charges.
"You may now offer whatever plea you wish to make in your own defence," he announced. Facing the platform, his voice inflectionless and peculiarly clear, Hank Rearden answered:
"I have no defence."
"Do you --" The judge stumbled; he had not expected it to be that easy. "Do you throw yourself upon the mercy of this court?"
"I do not recognise this court's right to try me."
"What?"
"I do not recognise this court's right to try me."
"But, Mr. Rearden, this is the legally appointed court to try this particular category of crime."
"I do not recognise my action as a crime."
"But you have admitted that you have broken our regulations controlling the sale of your Metal."
"I do not recognise your right to control the sale of my Metal."
"Is it necessary for me to point out that your recognition was not required?"
"No. I am fully aware of it and I am acting accordingly."

He noted the stillness of the room. By the rules of the complicated pretence which all those people played for one another's benefit, they should have considered his stand as incomprehensible folly; there should have been rustles of astonishment and derision; there were none; they sat still; they understood.
"Do you mean that you are refusing to obey the law?" asked the judge.
"No. I am complying with the law - to the letter. Your law holds that my life, my work and my property may be disposed of without my consent. Very well, you may now dispose of me without my participation in the matter. I will not play the part of defending myself, where no defence is possible, and I will not simulate the illusion of dealing with a tribunal of justice."
"But, Mr. Rearden, the law provides specifically that you are to be given an opportunity to present your side of the case and to defend yourself."
"A prisoner brought to trial can defend himself only if there is an objective principle of justice recognised by his judges, a principle upholding his rights, which they may not violate and which he can invoke. The law, by which you are trying me, holds that there are no principles, that I have no rights and that you may do with me whatever you please. Very well. Do it." "Mr. Rearden, the law which you are denouncing is based on the highest principle - the principle of the public good."
"Who is the public? What does it hold as its good? There was a time when men believed that 'the good' was a concept to be defined by a code of moral values and that no man had the right to seek his good through the violation of the rights of another. If it is now believed that my fellow men may sacrifice me in any manner they please for the sake of whatever they deem to e their own good, if they believe that they may seize my property simply because they need it - well, so does any burglar. There is only this difference: the burglar does not ask me to sanction his act."
http://bheemboy.blogspot.com/2007/12/hank-rearden-his-trial.html

I encourage you to read the rest of Readen's testimony at the link above. That is basically what my response would be if I could articulate it as well. The batteries you are worried about are not a natural resource like land or water. They are a piece of technology..a product of the mind of those who invented them. If government could justify confiscating every new invention that makes the world more efficient and better to live in, the patent office would soon close down.
 
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foc, your Chevron hypothetical reminds me forecefully of the Rearden Metal case in Atlas Shrugged..with you taking the point of view of the bureaucrats. In the story, a businessman named Hank Rearden spends 10 years of his life developing a strong and lightweight metal for use in industry. The product is wildly successful and when Rearden refuses to sell to the government before his private customers, they end up basically pointing a gun to his head demanding he turn over the patent for the public good..

He withholds his metal, so they bring him up on some vague "acting against the public interest" charges and bring him to trial. Here is an excerpt from the courtroom scene:

The newspapers had snarled that the cause of the country's troubles, as this case demonstrated, was the selfish greed of rich industrialists; that it was men like Hank Rearden who were to blame for the shrinking diet, the falling temperature and the cracking roofs in the homes of the nation; that if it had not been for men who broke regulations and hampered the government's plans, prosperity would have been achieved long ago; and that a man like Hank Rearden was prompted by nothing but the profit motive. This last was stated without explanation or elaboration, as if the words "profit motive" were the self-evident brand of ultimate evil.

The crowd remembered that these same newspapers, less than two years ago, had screamed that the production of Rearden Metal should be forbidden, because its producer was endangering people's lives for the sake of his greed; they remembered that the man in grey had ridden in the cab of the first engine to run over a track of his own Metal; and that he was now on trial for the greedy crime of withholding from the public a load of the Metal which it had been his greedy crime to offer in the public market.

According to the procedure established by directives, cases of this kind were not tried by a jury, but by a panel of three judges appointed by the Bureau of Economic Planning and National Resources; the procedure, the directives had stated, was to be informal and democratic. The judge's bench had been removed from the old Philadelphia courtroom for this occasion, and replaced by a table on a wooden platform; it gave the room an atmosphere suggesting the kind of meeting where a presiding body puts something over on a mentally retarded membership.

One of the judges, acting as prosecutor, had read the charges.
"You may now offer whatever plea you wish to make in your own defence," he announced. Facing the platform, his voice inflectionless and peculiarly clear, Hank Rearden answered:
"I have no defence."
"Do you --" The judge stumbled; he had not expected it to be that easy. "Do you throw yourself upon the mercy of this court?"
"I do not recognise this court's right to try me."
"What?"
"I do not recognise this court's right to try me."
"But, Mr. Rearden, this is the legally appointed court to try this particular category of crime."
"I do not recognise my action as a crime."
"But you have admitted that you have broken our regulations controlling the sale of your Metal."
"I do not recognise your right to control the sale of my Metal."
"Is it necessary for me to point out that your recognition was not required?"
"No. I am fully aware of it and I am acting accordingly."

He noted the stillness of the room. By the rules of the complicated pretence which all those people played for one another's benefit, they should have considered his stand as incomprehensible folly; there should have been rustles of astonishment and derision; there were none; they sat still; they understood.
"Do you mean that you are refusing to obey the law?" asked the judge.
"No. I am complying with the law - to the letter. Your law holds that my life, my work and my property may be disposed of without my consent. Very well, you may now dispose of me without my participation in the matter. I will not play the part of defending myself, where no defence is possible, and I will not simulate the illusion of dealing with a tribunal of justice."
"But, Mr. Rearden, the law provides specifically that you are to be given an opportunity to present your side of the case and to defend yourself."
"A prisoner brought to trial can defend himself only if there is an objective principle of justice recognised by his judges, a principle upholding his rights, which they may not violate and which he can invoke. The law, by which you are trying me, holds that there are no principles, that I have no rights and that you may do with me whatever you please. Very well. Do it." "Mr. Rearden, the law which you are denouncing is based on the highest principle - the principle of the public good."
"Who is the public? What does it hold as its good? There was a time when men believed that 'the good' was a concept to be defined by a code of moral values and that no man had the right to seek his good through the violation of the rights of another. If it is now believed that my fellow men may sacrifice me in any manner they please for the sake of whatever they deem to e their own good, if they believe that they may seize my property simply because they need it - well, so does any burglar. There is only this difference: the burglar does not ask me to sanction his act."
http://bheemboy.blogspot.com/2007/12/hank-rearden-his-trial.html

The batteries you are worried about are not a true public good like land or drinking water. They are a piece of technology..a product of the mind of those who invented them. Chevron owns that product and has no obligation to surrender it "for the public good". If government could justify confiscating every new invention that makes the world a better place to live in, the patent office would soon close down.

I encourage you to read the rest of Rearden's testimony at the link above. That is basically what my response would be if I could articulate it as well.
 
fatherofcaitlyn, your Chevron hypothetical reminds me forecefully of the Rearden Metal case in Atlas Shrugged..with you taking the point of view of the bureaucrats. In the story, a businessman named Hank Rearden spends 10 years of his life developing a strong and lightweight metal for use in industry. The product is wildly successful and when Rearden refuses to sell to the government before his private customers, they end up basically pointing a gun to his head demanding he turn over the patent for the public good..

He continues to withhold his metal, so they bring him up on some vague "acting against the public interest" charges and bring him to trial. Here is an excerpt from the courtroom scene:

The newspapers had snarled that the cause of the country's troubles, as this case demonstrated, was the selfish greed of rich industrialists; that it was men like Hank Rearden who were to blame for the shrinking diet, the falling temperature and the cracking roofs in the homes of the nation; that if it had not been for men who broke regulations and hampered the government's plans, prosperity would have been achieved long ago; and that a man like Hank Rearden was prompted by nothing but the profit motive. This last was stated without explanation or elaboration, as if the words "profit motive" were the self-evident brand of ultimate evil.

The crowd remembered that these same newspapers, less than two years ago, had screamed that the production of Rearden Metal should be forbidden, because its producer was endangering people's lives for the sake of his greed; they remembered that the man in grey had ridden in the cab of the first engine to run over a track of his own Metal; and that he was now on trial for the greedy crime of withholding from the public a load of the Metal which it had been his greedy crime to offer in the public market.

According to the procedure established by directives, cases of this kind were not tried by a jury, but by a panel of three judges appointed by the Bureau of Economic Planning and National Resources; the procedure, the directives had stated, was to be informal and democratic. The judge's bench had been removed from the old Philadelphia courtroom for this occasion, and replaced by a table on a wooden platform; it gave the room an atmosphere suggesting the kind of meeting where a presiding body puts something over on a mentally retarded membership.

One of the judges, acting as prosecutor, had read the charges.
"You may now offer whatever plea you wish to make in your own defence," he announced. Facing the platform, his voice inflectionless and peculiarly clear, Hank Rearden answered:
"I have no defence."
"Do you --" The judge stumbled; he had not expected it to be that easy. "Do you throw yourself upon the mercy of this court?"
"I do not recognise this court's right to try me."
"What?"
"I do not recognise this court's right to try me."
"But, Mr. Rearden, this is the legally appointed court to try this particular category of crime."
"I do not recognise my action as a crime."
"But you have admitted that you have broken our regulations controlling the sale of your Metal."
"I do not recognise your right to control the sale of my Metal."
"Is it necessary for me to point out that your recognition was not required?"
"No. I am fully aware of it and I am acting accordingly."

He noted the stillness of the room. By the rules of the complicated pretence which all those people played for one another's benefit, they should have considered his stand as incomprehensible folly; there should have been rustles of astonishment and derision; there were none; they sat still; they understood.
"Do you mean that you are refusing to obey the law?" asked the judge.
"No. I am complying with the law - to the letter. Your law holds that my life, my work and my property may be disposed of without my consent. Very well, you may now dispose of me without my participation in the matter. I will not play the part of defending myself, where no defence is possible, and I will not simulate the illusion of dealing with a tribunal of justice."
"But, Mr. Rearden, the law provides specifically that you are to be given an opportunity to present your side of the case and to defend yourself."
"A prisoner brought to trial can defend himself only if there is an objective principle of justice recognised by his judges, a principle upholding his rights, which they may not violate and which he can invoke. The law, by which you are trying me, holds that there are no principles, that I have no rights and that you may do with me whatever you please. Very well. Do it." "Mr. Rearden, the law which you are denouncing is based on the highest principle - the principle of the public good."
"Who is the public? What does it hold as its good? There was a time when men believed that 'the good' was a concept to be defined by a code of moral values and that no man had the right to seek his good through the violation of the rights of another. If it is now believed that my fellow men may sacrifice me in any manner they please for the sake of whatever they deem to be their own good, if they believe that they may seize my property simply because they need it - well, so does any burglar. There is only this difference: the burglar does not ask me to sanction his act."
http://bheemboy.blogspot.com/2007/12/hank-rearden-his-trial.html

The batteries you are worried about are not a true public good like land or drinking water. They are a piece of technology..a product of the mind of those who invented them. Chevron owns that product and has no obligation to surrender it "for the public good". If government could justify confiscating every new invention that makes the world a better place to live in, the patent office would soon close down.

I encourage you to read the rest of Rearden's testimony at the link above. That is basically what my response would be if I could articulate it as well.
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']The batteries you are worried about are not a true public good like land or drinking water. They are a piece of technology..a product of the mind of those who invented them. Chevron owns that product and has no obligation to surrender it "for the public good". If government could justify confiscating every new invention that makes the world a better place to live in, the patent office would soon close down.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe it's me, but the thought of auto makers buying out every piece of technology and advancement designed to increase MPG or get rid of gas altogether sickens me. I could give two shits if it's the "right thing" to do by not allowing the goverment to intervene. You may be right, but if there's one thing I wish the goverment would stop, it's the sick relationship between the automakers and the oil companies.
 
[quote name='rickonker']Spaz, that is not how the relationship between government and large businesses works in the real world, no matter what they taught us in high school. Large businesses always try to have power over the government because the government has power that they want. It's like throwing food to animals and watching them all scurry to it. Lobbyists camp out in DC and buy political favors, like special subsidies for large companies. But if the government didn't have the power to hand out subsidies in the first place, lobbying for them would serve no purpose and would disappear.

In other words, the less power the government has, the less useful it is for large businesses to have power over the government. If the government couldn't tax, borrow, and spend at will, do you think we'd have as many lobbyists and as much corporate welfare as we do today?

You (along with many in this thread and most progressives) view government and big business as almost always being at odds with each other, with the government protecting everybody from big business, when in reality they usually work together instead to further their interests. This would rightly be called fascism if that word didn't immediately conjure up images of jackboots and funny-looking mustaches.[/quote]

Well I certainly wasn't taught anything I said in high school, but I wasn't talking about lobbyists. That's a problem, but it's not what I meant.

I'm talking about power more generally. Power is a finite resource that both government and private business want. If government can take power from business, then it will, and if business can take power from government, then it will. They're really the only two players, so what power one doesn't have the other will. Businesses work with government because it has the power they want, yes, but if the government didn't have it then the businesses already would.

If there were no government, then those with the most money (resources) would have the most power. If there were no businesses, or private exchange of resources, then the government would have the power. In that sense, they're always at odds when they want the same power. When they work together (in the US) it's usually in the interest of business because of the fact that the government has grown more powerful over a time when business had power and so business has worked with government to keep their power while it grew.

The government is the only check on business as people individually have too little power to challenge a business. That's why I talk about a balance between business and government. Not that it necessarily exists currently, but it should be there, and one or the other having all power is a bad idea.
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']fatherofcaitlyn, your Chevron hypothetical ...[/quote]

Once again, Chevron and NiMH are not a hypothetical situation. They are reality.

Let's start there.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Once again, Chevron and NiMH are not a hypothetical situation. They are reality.

Let's start there.[/QUOTE]

At this point the only conclusion is that cap is being obtuse.

They are a piece of technology..a product of the mind of those who invented them. Chevron owns that product and has no obligation to surrender it "for the public good".

Oil and Car companies would not be a fraction of what they are now if it were not for the government spending and the good public, lets not kid ourselves.

I mean fuck me.

I hope cap is just being obtuse.

BTW, The laughable hypothetical Rearden Metal thing? It is obviously a hat tip to Harry Brearley and stainless steel. It is supposedly an alloy (you try inventing a metal) and as I pointed out the word mythril may as well be used, it all reads like a sex novel written by a person who has not kissed someone yet.

Now as for what rick was saying... as scummy as it is the way mega corporations use their influence, for example spending millions over the years fighting against fuel efficiency standards and then begging for bailouts when no one wants to buy their gas guzzlers. There is a distinction comparing it to the relationship companies had in the past with the government such as the circumstances surrounding say the Ludlow Massacre.
 
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[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Once again, Chevron and NiMH are not a hypothetical situation. They are reality.

Let's start there.[/QUOTE]
FoC, I replied to you earlier but I'm not sure if you saw it. I know the NiMH situation is reality, but what was the point of bringing it up? If you're just trying to say the current situation is wrong, I agree with you. But your post suggests you brought it up to point out a flaw in "pure capitalism," which would make my earlier post relevant because you've turned your situation into a hypothetical.
 
[quote name='rickonker']FoC, I replied to you earlier but I'm not sure if you saw it. I know the NiMH situation is reality, but what was the point of bringing it up? If you're just trying to say the current situation is wrong, I agree with you. But your post suggests you brought it up to point out a flaw in "pure capitalism," which would make my earlier post relevant because you've turned your situation into a hypothetical.[/quote]

I was responding more to Capitalizt. I wanted to make sure we're all at the same starting point before I write long bordeline insane post hinging on that tangent of reality.
 
just a quick bump as this topic is much needed in times like these. and also, is this book really worth getting? there are so many mixed reviews about it i am kinda hesitant on buying it.
 
[quote name='thisjustanother']just a quick bump as this topic is much needed in times like these. and also, is this book really worth getting? there are so many mixed reviews about it i am kinda hesitant on buying it.[/QUOTE]

Bah. It's a *novel*. There's nothing to be afraid of. It's quite long, I understand.

But at it's core, you can't really be afraid of a fictional story, can you?

(in before the typical obnoxious "haw haw bible is fiction and kills!" numbskulls)
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']far more good reviews than bad.. If you have an open mind, it will change your outlook on practically everything. Everyone should read it once, even hardcore Marxists who have the opposite philosophy ;)

Amazon reviews: http://www.amazon.com/Atlas-Shrugge...dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1[/QUOTE]

I take it you've read "The Jungle," then.

EDIT: FoC, if I'm not reading for work, then I'm reading "The Dark Tower" again or playing me some games. Atlas Shrugged is close to "Dora the Explorer" on my to-do list.
 
:lol:

Don't make excuses. The Jungle has influenced labor policy far more than Atlas Shrugged has influenced ideology. Not relevant? You're simply unaware of history, my friend.

Don't get me wrong. As someone who performs and researches for a living, one of the harsh bits of reality is that I'm writing to a limited audience, and pop culture/mass media will always be far more influential in terms of policy than I ever will be. I'm jealous of The Jungle, and am upset that a work of fiction influenced labor/union policy the way it did.

And that's irrespective of that I agree with its philosophies - because I'm savvy enough to recognize that it's a nasty, nasty precedent (and a historically consistent one) that we let works of fiction influence what we do and what laws we pass more than the empirical world in which we live.

After all, when Republican candidates talk about "Jack Bauer," it resonates with the public far more than Howard Dean's summary of Devah Pager's research. People know Bauer, and don't know or give a fuck about Pager.

In short, don't blow off a novel that Atlas Shrugged wishes it could be, in terms of influence.
 
I don't think you can quantify the influence Atlas Shrugged has had.. She influenced the minds of millions..changing belief systems and perceptions. She provided a crucial piece of the puzzle that was missing from the free market school of thought at the time. There already were numerous economic justifications for capitalism and free markets.. Central planning has been a proven failure on anything larger than a tribal scale. It was not the system to embrace if you wanted to increase prosperity for vast number of people. Capitalism is the only system that does this, so it had it's economic justification...but was lacking a MORAL justification. Rand was the first to provide that. She offered a moral defense of capitalism and individualism..and a scathing criticism of socialism/collectivism, not because it is inefficient and wasteful (as was proven by Mises, Hayek, et al.)..but because it is IMMORAL as well. The moral justification for individualism is what influenced so many people and without that, the left would likely have come to dominate the USA several decades earlier than it did.

At any rate, nobody can deny Atlas Shrugged certainly had less influence on POLICY than The Jungle...but that's because the world has been on an inexorable trend towards more and more government for the past 100 years. Rand didn't have any policy proposals or suggestions for improving government programs or making them more efficient.. She wanted most of them abolished which was obviously a radical idea. And with the majority of the population clamoring for more government intervention not less, it's no wonder she was sidelined in favor of the big government proponents like Sinclair.
 
You're conflating labor policy that stemmed directly from the "expose" that was The Jungle with "big government." And you're conflating "organized labor" with "big government."

That's not a very good argument. They may correlate, but it's not causally or practically related.

And you're still blowing off the larger point that, based on your "opposites should read it" philosophy, you ought to have read The Jungle by now. Cliffs Notes don't count.
 
I doubt the jungle can tell me any more than I already know about labor conditions in the late 18/early 1900s. I know things were shitty.. There was pollution, a lack of infrastructure, and major overcrowding due to the huge influx of immigrants. It's easy to crticize harsh working conditions then, but I notice most writers during that period neglect to talk about the miserable conditions of the average rural person. The jobs in cities may have been dangerous and low-paying, but rural jobs were often nonexistent. The high poverty rates and malnutrition in rural areas was often much worse than in cities...but since these writers spent their years touring and commenting on city life instead, we never hear about the invisible masses living outside them. Once you ask why there were so many people moving into these terrible cities, you'll realize it is because they were in desperate search of a better life because conditions outside were often much worse.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']You're conflating labor policy that stemmed directly from the "expose" that was The Jungle with "big government." And you're conflating "organized labor" with "big government."

That's not a very good argument. They may correlate, but it's not causally or practically related.

And you're still blowing off the larger point that, based on your "opposites should read it" philosophy, you ought to have read The Jungle by now. Cliffs Notes don't count.[/quote]

Would a Broadway reimagining be adequate?
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']It's easy to crticize harsh working conditions then, but I notice most writers during that period neglect to talk about the miserable conditions of the average rural person. The jobs in cities may have been dangerous and low-paying, but rural jobs were often nonexistent. [/quote]

FAIL. Rural jobs didn't fade until mechanization of agriculture.

They use to pay people to cut the tassels (male organ) off of corn.
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']I doubt the jungle can tell me any more than I already know about labor conditions in the late 18/early 1900s. I know things were shitty.. There was pollution, a lack of infrastructure, and major overcrowding due to the huge influx of immigrants. It's easy to crticize harsh working conditions then, but I notice most writers during that period neglect to talk about the miserable conditions of the average rural person. The jobs in cities may have been dangerous and low-paying, but rural jobs were often nonexistent. The high poverty rates and malnutrition in rural areas was often much worse than in cities...but since these writers spent their years touring and commenting on city life instead, we never hear about the invisible masses living outside them. Once you ask why there were so many people moving into these terrible cities, you'll realize it is because they were in desperate search of a better life because conditions outside were often much worse.[/QUOTE]

Your understanding of the social/economic conditions behind the Great Migration is as lacking as your continual pithy, condescending "I don't need to read it because I know it all already" disregard for The Jungle.
 
Rural conditions were miserable for many people mike. Rational self interest suggests that they wouldn't be willing to subject themselves to city life unless it was better than other alternatives available to them.

Anyway, I'll read your pro-socialist diatribe "The Jungle" if you my pro-capitalist diatribe "Atlas Shrugged". Deal? ;)
 
rural conditions were miserable in different ways for different people.

remember sharecropping?

Requested it from my library. Your turn, and you have 1/6th the reading to do, so you best not flake.
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']Rural conditions were miserable for many people mike. Rational self interest suggests that they wouldn't be willing to subject themselves to city life unless it was better than other alternatives available to them.

Anyway, I'll read your pro-socialist diatribe "The Jungle" if you my pro-capitalist diatribe "Atlas Shrugged". Deal? ;)[/quote]

People left rural areas because a machine became capable of doing the work of dozens if not hundreds of men.

Since there were no social programs allowing able-bodied people to survive, the only options were starvation or flight.

It wasn't because the basic living conditions were worse than the city by the very nature of being in the country. It was because machines made basic living conditions worse than the city.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']People left rural areas because a machine became capable of doing the work of dozens if not hundreds of men.

Since there were no social programs allowing able-bodied people to survive, the only options were starvation or flight.[/quote]

Translation: Poverty and malnutrition in rural areas made people worse off there than in cities. Isn't that what I said about ten posts ago?
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']Translation: Poverty and malnutrition in rural areas made people worse off there than in cities. Isn't that what I said about ten posts ago?[/quote]

No. You're putting cart before the horse.
 
Sigh... I'll have to read them both. The girlfriend is a big fan of Ayn Rand, and I've been meaning to read ...Shrugged for a while, but my backlog is just too big. I'll add that Upton Sinclair joint to it.
 
I've been meaning to read Atlas Shrugged for a while too. Had to read The Fountainhead for a 20th century history class in undergrad and really liked the book. Don't agree with Rand's views much, but the book was a very good read.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']You're conflating labor policy that stemmed directly from the "expose" that was The Jungle with "big government." And you're conflating "organized labor" with "big government."

That's not a very good argument. They may correlate, but it's not causally or practically related.

And you're still blowing off the larger point that, based on your "opposites should read it" philosophy, you ought to have read The Jungle by now. Cliffs Notes don't count.[/QUOTE]

Notice cap continuously conflates socialism with a planned economy, they are not necessarily the same.

I have no idea what cap thinks he is arguing, that things sucked for those in rural areas with little power as well is hardly an argument for capitalism.
 
If you have time to read Ayn Rand, I suggest balancing it by following up with some Sinclair Lewis. At the very least read "The Great Gatsby"

I used to believe all that Ayn Rand stuff but now I realize how full of crap it is. It's like growing up reading the bible and Superman comics and then getting your mind blown by Nietzsche.

If you don't believe me, just ask ol' Jeff Skilling how well "The Selfish Gene" social darwinist theory worked out for him and his former company.
 
One Dimensional Man is the best critique of "Randian" thought I've read, though it certainly wasn't meant to be. I had difficulty disputing many of his claims, even though I didn't like much of what he insinuated. That's the mark of a good book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-Dimensional_Man

If you find Randian thought interesting, you owe it to yourself read this book.
 
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Myke, didn't you call Randians "ideological numbskulls" a while ago? Now you're reading their most beloved work? :hot:
 
[quote name='speedracer']One Dimensional Man is the best critique of "Randian" thought I've read, though it certainly wasn't meant to be. I had difficulty disputing many of his claims, even though I didn't like much of what he insinuated. That's the mark of a good book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-Dimensional_Man

If you find Randian thought interesting, you owe it to yourself read this book.[/QUOTE]
speedracer, how is One-Dimensional Man a critique of Randian thought? I'm curious to hear your take on it.
 
bread's done
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