Attacks on US Embassies

[quote name='panzerfaust']wut[/QUOTE]

North Africa is going through the growing stage. There are several groups there just want to see America gone whether it's an embassy or a Pepsi-Co bottling plant.

As much as my heart goes out to the fallen, we put ourselves in this position.

We tried to build an empire like the British and now we must know what it's like to have our compatriots die in backwater places like Benghazi, Libya.

Before you go on full-on attack mode, our empire isn't like the British. We conquered the globe with rock n roll and McDonalds but that doesn't mean we're not in for a rude awakening when the rest of the globe decides they don't want to work for us or buy our crappy products.
 
The sad truth of all of this is that it probably wouldn't happen if we all just had a better understanding of each other. You have to understand that from the viewpoint of the people attacking these embassies, our government (and that of other western countries involved)is complicit in all of this because it isn't censoring it. Most of these folks grew up in countries where the government does have the power to censor or remove things they don't want people seeing, ours can't, but they don't understand that. They see it happening (meaning this video that was made) and just assume our government is permitting it, as if they could stop it.

Now that may seem hard to believe, but you have to realize that many of these people are as ignorant of our ways as we are of theirs, and it's that mutual ignorance that causes a lot of this to happen in the first place. It may seem simplistic, but much of this violence is set off by one big misunderstanding.

This is why ignorance is so dangerous and education is so important, because the mutual understanding of peoples can't keep things like this from happening. All it takes is one little spark, one little thing which may seem insignificant to you, but is huge to someone else, and the next thing you know you're fighting and people are dying.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I only wish the internet was around in 1776. The rest of the world would perceive Americans as barbarian murderers.[/QUOTE]

This.

It's funny how easy it is to compare the growth of America compared to the growth of Libya or many other countries in the region who were all colonized, many within the last 100 years. Our Civil War was 150 years ago, (hey...about a hundred years after our independence...hunh, whaddya know) we act like infighting in countries that we meddle in heavily, or plunder the natural resources of, or finance one country over another that's in conflict then walk away and throw our hands in the air wondering why we can't have peace, as American jets and weapons fly overhead and shoot in the streets.


Most of these are young countries stepping out from under dictators...several of the dictators who the US has promoted and propped up. You can't shit in someone else's pool then complain that it's dirty.
 
[quote name='depascal22']We conquered the globe with rock n roll and McDonalds but that doesn't mean we're not in for a rude awakening when the rest of the globe decides they don't want to work for us or buy our crappy products.[/QUOTE]

You mean crappy Chinese products that we slap a logo on.
 
[quote name='Clak']The sad truth of all of this is that it probably wouldn't happen if we all just had a better understanding of each other. You have to understand that from the viewpoint of the people attacking these embassies, our government (and that of other western countries involved)is complicit in all of this because it isn't censoring it. Most of these folks grew up in countries where the government does have the power to censor or remove things they don't want people seeing, ours can't, but they don't understand that. They see it happening (meaning this video that was made) and just assume our government is permitting it, as if they could stop it.

Now that may seem hard to believe, but you have to realize that many of these people are as ignorant of our ways as we are of theirs, and it's that mutual ignorance that causes a lot of this to happen in the first place. It may seem simplistic, but much of this violence is set off by one big misunderstanding.

This is why ignorance is so dangerous and education is so important, because the mutual understanding of peoples can't keep things like this from happening. All it takes is one little spark, one little thing which may seem insignificant to you, but is huge to someone else, and the next thing you know you're fighting and people are dying.[/QUOTE]

Nah ignorance, hate, and a lack of any effort to understand is the way to go. You know why bother... black trash is just that black trash, there is nothing worse then black trash, baptist/muslim, ghetto, democrat etc. Hate and ignorance is the way to go. Right clak? ;) I hear you are the beacon of understanding and respect towards others.

[quote name='berzirk']This.

It's funny how easy it is to compare the growth of America compared to the growth of Libya or many other countries in the region who were all colonized, many within the last 100 years. Our Civil War was 150 years ago, (hey...about a hundred years after our independence...hunh, whaddya know) we act like infighting in countries that we meddle in heavily, or plunder the natural resources of, or finance one country over another that's in conflict then walk away and throw our hands in the air wondering why we can't have peace, as American jets and weapons fly overhead and shoot in the streets.


Most of these are young countries stepping out from under dictators...several of the dictators who the US has promoted and propped up. You can't shit in someone else's pool then complain that it's dirty.[/QUOTE]

Really? You mention how young "amerika" is then go on to ramble some bs about young and first time growth in a region that has a history of drawing and redrawing borders, infighting, conflicts etc on thier own for easily over a thousand years. You have it backwards their pal. Either talk about "amerika" being young and in growth or the world being in growth as that is more accurate but don't be so ignorant as to say they are young and in growth. I suggest you open up some history books and maybe take off those lenses that are clouding your vision.

It isn't the first time in the thread you have rambled off this bs and you claim to be some kind of authority on knowledge of growth and selected history which I agree you are an authority but only on your brand of ignorance.
 
[quote name='Recycle']Really? You mention how young "amerika" is then go on to ramble some bs about young and first time growth in a region that has a history of drawing and redrawing borders, infighting, conflicts etc on thier own for easily over a thousand years. You have it backwards their pal. Either talk about "amerika" being young and in growth or the world being in growth as that is more accurate but don't be so ignorant as to say they are young and in growth. I suggest you open up some history books and maybe take off those lenses that are clouding your vision.

It isn't the first time in the thread you have rambled off this bs and you claim to be some kind of authority on knowledge of growth and selected history which I agree you are an authority but only on your brand of ignorance.[/QUOTE]

I was thinking the same thing. There is little comparison with a young USA and the countries in the Middle East.

I don't cotton to wholesale cultural relativism. While the American revolution was fought for all sorts of reasons, I believe it had a pure heart as evidenced by the Democratic Republic that was immediately erected once the Monarchy had been expelled.

What do the revolutionaries in the middle east stand for? They seem to favor fundamentalism, theocracy, medievalism. Personally I don't find these political philosophies laudable or commendable, and any comparison of their skirmishes and/or terrorist activities to the American revolution is absurd.
 
[quote name='Recycle'] Really? You mention how young "amerika" is then go on to ramble some bs about young and first time growth in a region that has a history of drawing and redrawing borders, infighting, conflicts etc on thier own for easily over a thousand years. You have it backwards their pal. Either talk about "amerika" being young and in growth or the world being in growth as that is more accurate but don't be so ignorant as to say they are young and in growth. I suggest you open up some history books and maybe take off those lenses that are clouding your vision.

It isn't the first time in the thread you have rambled off this bs and you claim to be some kind of authority on knowledge of growth and selected history which I agree you are an authority but only on your brand of ignorance.[/QUOTE]

Start with the Sykes-Picot agreement, read through the Balfour Declaration. Then eat a BigMac and holler out an "Amuriiica! fuck Ya!"

Required reading-Avi Shlaim: The Iron Wall

...oh yah, and I forgot this one. It's the text book that I'm mentioned in the acknowledgments section: http://books.google.com/books?id=-Hw_XY6VPm0C&lpg=PP1&ots=7otpQiaRe0&dq=diplomacy%20on%20the%20jordan&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q=diplomacy%20on%20the%20jordan&f=false

I'm likely far more educated than you on the topic. Would you like fries with that?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[quote name='berzirk']Start with the Sykes-Picot agreement, read through the Balfour Declaration. Then eat a BigMac and holler out an "Amuriiica! fuck Ya!"

Required reading-Avi Shlaim: The Iron Wall

...oh yah, and I forgot this one. It's the text book that I'm mentioned in the acknowledgments section: http://books.google.com/books?id=-Hw_XY6VPm0C&lpg=PP1&ots=7otpQiaRe0&dq=diplomacy%20on%20the%20jordan&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q=diplomacy%20on%20the%20jordan&f=false

I'm likely far more educated than you on the topic. Would you like fries with that?[/QUOTE]

Why don't you debate the points instead of trying to impress us with your supposed reading list. Noone's buying it.
 
[quote name='berzirk']Start with the Sykes-Picot agreement, read through the Balfour Declaration. Then eat a BigMac and holler out an "Amuriiica! fuck Ya!"

Required reading-Avi Shlaim: The Iron Wall

...oh yah, and I forgot this one. It's the text book that I'm mentioned in the acknowledgments section: http://books.google.com/books?id=-Hw_XY6VPm0C&lpg=PP1&ots=7otpQiaRe0&dq=diplomacy%20on%20the%20jordan&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q=diplomacy%20on%20the%20jordan&f=false

I'm likely far more educated than you on the topic. Would you like fries with that?[/QUOTE]

This whole quote reminds me of Good Will Hunting.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']This whole quote reminds me of Good Will Hunting.[/QUOTE]

Haa haa. I don't claim to be intelligent regarding most other topics, but this one is kinda in my wheelhouse ;)
 
[quote name='berzirk']Start with the Sykes-Picot agreement, read through the Balfour Declaration. Then eat a BigMac and holler out an "Amuriiica! fuck Ya!"

Required reading-Avi Shlaim: The Iron Wall

...oh yah, and I forgot this one. It's the text book that I'm mentioned in the acknowledgments section: http://books.google.com/books?id=-H...1#v=onepage&q=diplomacy on the jordan&f=false

I'm likely far more educated than you on the topic. Would you like fries with that?[/QUOTE]

[quote name='camoor']Why don't you debate the points instead of trying to impress us with your supposed reading list. Noone's buying it.[/QUOTE]
^This.
 
[quote name='dohdough']^This.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for quoting camoor so I could see that. Dude...why that guy keeps addressing things to me when I've made it clear he's on my ignore list is too complex for me to comprehend I guess. Honestly, I think most of his comments are just mean spirited and advance nothing, so rather than go back and forth with him, I decided to block him because it's a waste of my time, and clearly he and I just don't like each other, so what's the point of going round and round? Apparently he disagrees.

Anyhoo re:
Really? You mention how young "amerika" is then go on to ramble some bs about young and first time growth in a region that has a history of drawing and redrawing borders, infighting, conflicts etc on thier own for easily over a thousand years. You have it backwards their pal. Either talk about "amerika" being young and in growth or the world being in growth as that is more accurate but don't be so ignorant as to say they are young and in growth. I suggest you open up some history books and maybe take off those lenses that are clouding your vision.

It isn't the first time in the thread you have rambled off this bs and you claim to be some kind of authority on knowledge of growth and selected history which I agree you are an authority but only on your brand of ignorance.
Click to expand...

I'm not really sure what point he's trying to call me out on here. Punctuation would make it easier to read, but he's basically trying to compare a geographical region to an autonomous country (the Middle East to the US) if I follow. My point is that of the COUNTRIES in the middle east most of them are younger than 100 years. If you look at the first 100 years of the US, we had a turbulent, violent, coup-laden first century. To thumb our noses at other countries that are going through this is hypocritical, especially when we got to make our own borders, we didn't have borders given to us by the British and French. Combine that with our foreign involvement in these countries, and we're not helping things move along. Between funding and propping up dictators, to manipulation of natural resources, to heavy military alliances that escalate tensions, we're actively playing a role in destabilizing a handful of COUNTRIES.

If we want to compare regions, then rather than looking at America, it would probably make more sense to look back several hundred years ago (Islam started around 1400yrs ago) and look at Western Europe. That was a calm, peaceful, scientifically enlightened territory, right? Err...

So in summary, he's logically incorrect to compare a region to a country, he's obviously blatantly wrong in saying I have the history wrong, as things like the Sykes-Picot agreement, the Balfour Declaration, the American Revolutionary and Civil Wars happened, then he doubted my knowledge of the dynamics, and after posting my reply, I remembered I was actually mentioned by name in a book about conflict and resolution in that very region, so I added that through an edit.

He's asking me to make an argument based on his assumptions, which are almost entirely inaccurate.

"So, since the earth is flat, explain to me where the end of the ocean is, if you think you're an expert on oceanography!"

...Uh...

edit: And doh, I actually thought you were better read on the topic to know at the surface level his assumptions are incorrect and foolish, but maybe I was wrong? I would suspect you've made points against our expansionist policies and meddling in foreign lands, but I have no desire to go through your post history to confirm/deny. Also assumed you have a good knowledge base on world history. You disagree that the countries in the middle east are mostly young, mostly live under colonist's borders, and has constant meddling from outside the region?
 
[quote name='berzirk']Thanks for quoting camoor so I could see that. Dude...why that guy keeps addressing things to me when I've made it clear he's on my ignore list is too complex for me to comprehend I guess. Honestly, I think most of his comments are just mean spirited and advance nothing, so rather than go back and forth with him, I decided to block him because it's a waste of my time, and clearly he and I just don't like each other, so what's the point of going round and round? Apparently he disagrees.[/QUOTE]
I've never understood the point of putting someone on ignore when the filters suck while having the ability to click-to-read. Even beyond that, I don't like censoring myself like that. It's philosophical for me I guess. Also, there are always important points that can be made even with responding to the most inane posts sometimes...much to dmaul's chagrin.:lol:

edit: And doh, I actually thought you were better read on the topic to know at the surface level his assumptions are incorrect and foolish, but maybe I was wrong? I would suspect you've made points against our expansionist policies and meddling in foreign lands, but I have no desire to go through your post history to confirm/deny. Also assumed you have a good knowledge base on world history. You disagree that the countries in the middle east are mostly young, mostly live under colonist's borders, and has constant meddling from outside the region?
Click to expand...
I don't have a problem with your knowledge on this subject as you've demonstrated how well-informed you are, but just the way you were lazy about sharing it. camoor just happened to hit upon this and it's a very valid point. You have to make the argument with your own words, not throw out books and articles to make the argument for you. No one is "buying" it because you're not giving them a reason to.

You're correct in assuming we're similarly aligned in regards to imperialism, but you're a lot more familiar with Middle Eastern history than I am. And yes, I agree that these countries are still young and not operating on borders that they've established for themselves with far too much foreign intervention.
 
[quote name='berzirk']Then eat a BigMac and holler out an "Amuriiica! fuck Ya!"

Would you like fries with that?[/QUOTE]

wut?

here is some "required reading" for you which it can be acknowledged that you are a huge participant in...here
 
[quote name='camoor']I was thinking the same thing. There is little comparison with a young USA and the countries in the Middle East.

I don't cotton to wholesale cultural relativism. While the American revolution was fought for all sorts of reasons, I believe it had a pure heart as evidenced by the Democratic Republic that was immediately erected once the Monarchy had been expelled.

What do the revolutionaries in the middle east stand for? They seem to favor fundamentalism, theocracy, medievalism. Personally I don't find these political philosophies laudable or commendable, and any comparison of their skirmishes and/or terrorist activities to the American revolution is absurd.[/QUOTE]

:applause:

Moreover this is a thread about a bunch of religious extremists that has nothing to do with what and who berzirk is comparing them to or giving examples of. He is looking at it narrowly and through a distorted lens. These are religious extremists and we all know that they do not represent all the muslims in the world or even the people in the middle east for that matter. They are not part of some grand revolution of grand ideals they are radicals with radical views and violent tendencies. I don't think anyone in their right mind sympathizes with these radicals except other radicals.
 
[quote name='berzirk']

but he's basically trying to compare a geographical region to an autonomous country (the Middle East to the US) if I follow.

So in summary, he's logically incorrect to compare a region to a country,[/QUOTE]

you compared the two dorky and you just called yourself logically incorrect

is there anyone in there?
 
[quote name='Recycle']wut?

here is some "required reading" for you which it can be acknowledged that you are a huge participant in...here[/QUOTE]

...I'm something like 11th generation American with ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War...what predjudice are you suggesting exists?

[quote name='Recycle']you compared the two dorky and you just called yourself logically incorrect

is there anyone in there?[/QUOTE]

More required reading:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/punctuation
 
[quote name='berzirk']If we want to compare regions, then rather than looking at America, it would probably make more sense to look back several hundred years ago (Islam started around 1400yrs ago) and look at Western Europe. That was a calm, peaceful, scientifically enlightened territory, right? Err...[/QUOTE]

So you are literally saying the only fair comparison we can make is comparing the modern Middle East to medieval European countries. Gee that dovetails nicely with my point that the majority of rebels and/or terrorist groups in the middle east represent medievalism.

Too bad your argument falls apart shortly after that. I mean, it sure is a convenient way to ignore the advancements of political philosophy and technology made in the last 1400 years AMIRITE
 
[quote name='Recycle']:applause:

Moreover this is a thread about a bunch of religious extremists that has nothing to do with what and who berzirk is comparing them to or giving examples of. He is looking at it narrowly and through a distorted lens. These are religious extremists and we all know that they do not represent all the muslims in the world or even the people in the middle east for that matter. They are not part of some grand revolution of grand ideals they are radicals with radical views and violent tendencies. I don't think anyone in their right mind sympathizes with these radicals except other radicals.[/QUOTE]

So true. What Berzirk is trying to do is to paint all middle eastern people with the same brush, I'm not sure he's smart enough to figure out that many middle eastern people would find his characterization of them very insulting.

Plus he's continuing this idiotic simplicity with this faux idea of an modern American empire. If he wants to go after corporations (American, Russian, Chinese...) and the terrible things they've done in the Middle East, then fine I agree. If he wants to go after Dubya and his idiocy in preemptively declaring two wars then fine I agree. But it's not an empire, this is messy history filled with differing and complex motives, not a neat little conspiracy theory novel.
 
[quote name='camoor']So you are literally saying the only fair comparison we can make is comparing the modern Middle East to medieval European countries. Gee that dovetails nicely with my point that the majority of rebels and/or terrorist groups in the middle east represent medievalism.

Too bad your argument falls apart shortly after that. I mean, it sure is a convenient way to ignore the advancements of political philosophy and technology made in the last 1400 years AMIRITE[/QUOTE]
Sure, but what you're missing is that what we're seeing in the Middle East today is a relatively modern phenomenon. Between WW2 and the Cold War, we've literally bombed the area into the stone age and installed fundamentalist dictators while economically and militarily supporting their regimes for the last 40-50 years.

[quote name='camoor']So true. What Berzirk is trying to do is to paint all middle eastern people with the same brush, I'm not sure he's smart enough to figure out that many middle eastern people would find his characterization of them very insulting.[/quote]
Hmmm...I don't know if I'd go that far.

Plus he's continuing this idiotic simplicity with this faux idea of an modern American empire. If he wants to go after corporations (American, Russian, Chinese...) and the terrible things they've done in the Middle East, then fine I agree. If he wants to go after Dubya and his idiocy in preemptively declaring two wars then fine I agree. But it's not an empire, this is messy history filled with differing and complex motives, not a neat little conspiracy theory novel.
Click to expand...
Those are good points too, but the latter one is debatable in regards to how one would define "empire." I agree that it's complex, but I have a hard time separating capital, the power elite, and how they've always been in control of the country. I think the characterization of empire is correct in this context.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[quote name='panzerfaust']Weren't we helping Libya? Or am I just a victim of propaganda?[/QUOTE]

http://news.yahoo.com/libyans-storm-militia-backlash-attack-us-225317193.html

This article would indicate that many Libyans aren't pleased with extremist militias like the one suspected of the attack.

BENGHAZI, Libya (AP) — Hundreds of protesters angry over last week's killing of the U.S. ambassador to Libya stormed the compound of the Islamic extremist militia suspected in the attack, evicting militiamen and setting fire to their building Friday...

...For many Libyans, the Sept. 11 attack on the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi was the last straw in one of the biggest problems Libya has faced since the ouster and death of longtime dictator Moammar Gadhafi around a year ago — the multiple mini-armies that with their arsenals of machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades are stronger than the regular armed forces and police...
Click to expand...
And despite this...

No deaths were reported in the incident, which came after tens of thousands marched in Benghazi against armed militias. One vehicle was also burned at the compound.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
bread's done
Back
Top