Battle Looms Over Huge Costs of Public Pensions
- Thread starter RAMSTORIA
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speedracer
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[quote name='UncleBob']*I'm stuck in the middle with you...*
[/QUOTE]
My total compensation package including health care pay ins, pension payments, life insurance subsidy, workers comp, unemployment payments, the whole enchilada, is significantly less than $69,913, though more than $53,056. The first number of my package is not a 6.
I'm not bitching, I just want to point out the reality of the situation. Maybe that's why other cities are
ed, but Houston has its shit together comparatively speaking.
I'd also like to point out that in our city there are multiple pension systems. There's the firefighters, police, and everyone else. Trust me, when politicians are trying to get elected, they don't come offering begging and offering gifts to Public Works or IT. They're buttering up the firefighters and police. That's a pension that never getsed with and includes benefits that NEVER go down. If I was going to point to a pension program that is a little too cozy with the purse string holders, the firefighters and police would be the ones. Their unions run nasty political ads and come down like the fist of an angry god on any politician that dares dick with them.
Next time you see a politician get support from one of those groups (or not get support!), you can pretty much guess what happened behind the scenes.
My total compensation package including health care pay ins, pension payments, life insurance subsidy, workers comp, unemployment payments, the whole enchilada, is significantly less than $69,913, though more than $53,056. The first number of my package is not a 6.
I'm not bitching, I just want to point out the reality of the situation. Maybe that's why other cities are
ed, but Houston has its shit together comparatively speaking.I'd also like to point out that in our city there are multiple pension systems. There's the firefighters, police, and everyone else. Trust me, when politicians are trying to get elected, they don't come offering begging and offering gifts to Public Works or IT. They're buttering up the firefighters and police. That's a pension that never gets
ed with and includes benefits that NEVER go down. If I was going to point to a pension program that is a little too cozy with the purse string holders, the firefighters and police would be the ones. Their unions run nasty political ads and come down like the fist of an angry god on any politician that dares dick with them.Next time you see a politician get support from one of those groups (or not get support!), you can pretty much guess what happened behind the scenes.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']They could have dismantled their business and paid her and every other retiree a share of the sale.
However, they declared bankruptcy and reissued stock.
http://www.florsheim.com/shop/index.html
The company still exists and still produces a product. Any money they make should go towards servicing the pensions of their employees.
It wasn't a matter of not having the money. It was a matter of running themselves into the ground long enough so they could screw over their retirees and start with a clean slate.
...
Regarding screwing over public employees, I'm all in favor of reducing the pensions of future retirees and big gubmint reducing the scope of services they provide. The instant you start squeezing the people who gave the best years of their lives to your company, cause, government or whatever, you've entered piece of shit territory.
Nobody honorable rewrites the terms of a contract after the contract has been completed.[/QUOTE]
then she got screwed big time. itd be one thing if the company went under and dissolved, but if theyre still around then she should have gotten some time of check (though perhaps under a restructured plan). seems like there would have been lawsuits over this. im not an expert in much, especially not bankruptcy, so not sure if theres some type of bankruptcy law loophole that allowed them to do this or what.
[quote name='cindersphere']This entire thread reminds me of the housing arguments. I mean you have Ram that is basically saying that if there is no money then it is okay to drop your commitments. Then you have FoC saying that those commitments should be honored until no longer possible, even and dissolution of all assets. Under Rams thinking if I am hovering close to bankruptcy I should just get rid of my obligations and keep my stuff and start over (In a more ghetto way, sign my stuff over to a family member, and tell all my creditors to F off) because hey I don't have the means anymore, I shouldn't be expected to fulfill the contract anymore. Under FoC I lose the house, the car, the dog house, and even my little ice cube trays to try to honor my obligation as much as possible. In Bob's world apparently both are bad because a criminal has broken a 50 dollar window and now the baker is out of a window or something along those lines.
I don't know, Rams position seems to be based upon the acceptance of thievery, stealing labor by lying and promising one price then when the service is fulfilled, taking it away and never getting punished. There is just something inherently wrong with that picture.[/QUOTE]
except i never said anything like that.
However, they declared bankruptcy and reissued stock.
http://www.florsheim.com/shop/index.html
The company still exists and still produces a product. Any money they make should go towards servicing the pensions of their employees.
It wasn't a matter of not having the money. It was a matter of running themselves into the ground long enough so they could screw over their retirees and start with a clean slate.
...
Regarding screwing over public employees, I'm all in favor of reducing the pensions of future retirees and big gubmint reducing the scope of services they provide. The instant you start squeezing the people who gave the best years of their lives to your company, cause, government or whatever, you've entered piece of shit territory.
Nobody honorable rewrites the terms of a contract after the contract has been completed.[/QUOTE]
then she got screwed big time. itd be one thing if the company went under and dissolved, but if theyre still around then she should have gotten some time of check (though perhaps under a restructured plan). seems like there would have been lawsuits over this. im not an expert in much, especially not bankruptcy, so not sure if theres some type of bankruptcy law loophole that allowed them to do this or what.
[quote name='cindersphere']This entire thread reminds me of the housing arguments. I mean you have Ram that is basically saying that if there is no money then it is okay to drop your commitments. Then you have FoC saying that those commitments should be honored until no longer possible, even and dissolution of all assets. Under Rams thinking if I am hovering close to bankruptcy I should just get rid of my obligations and keep my stuff and start over (In a more ghetto way, sign my stuff over to a family member, and tell all my creditors to F off) because hey I don't have the means anymore, I shouldn't be expected to fulfill the contract anymore. Under FoC I lose the house, the car, the dog house, and even my little ice cube trays to try to honor my obligation as much as possible. In Bob's world apparently both are bad because a criminal has broken a 50 dollar window and now the baker is out of a window or something along those lines.
I don't know, Rams position seems to be based upon the acceptance of thievery, stealing labor by lying and promising one price then when the service is fulfilled, taking it away and never getting punished. There is just something inherently wrong with that picture.[/QUOTE]
except i never said anything like that.
cindersphere
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[quote name='RAMSTORIA']then she got screwed big time. itd be one thing if the company went under and dissolved, but if theyre still around then she should have gotten some time of check (though perhaps under a restructured plan). seems like there would have been lawsuits over this. im not an expert in much, especially not bankruptcy, so not sure if theres some type of bankruptcy law loophole that allowed them to do this or what.
except i never said anything like that.[/QUOTE]
I haven't slept in about 60 hours now due to work. I will reread what you wrote tomorrow. I tend to blur details when tired. Although I take your word that I misread your position. So sorry.
except i never said anything like that.[/QUOTE]
I haven't slept in about 60 hours now due to work. I will reread what you wrote tomorrow. I tend to blur details when tired. Although I take your word that I misread your position. So sorry.
speedracer
Banned
So he just straight doesn't pay in the state's portion of the pension because its "broke". So now next year the state will owe "itself" the payment for next year plus the payment for this year plus the interest it lost out on. Then next year they'll slash pension benefits and it'll be because those greedy unionists are robbing the taxpayers blind. And no one will remember that Christie just literally stole from both taxpayers (in the form of interest to reduce debt) and employees.
Fiscal conservatism at its finest.
I'm not paying my credit card company this month because I think the way they do business is broke. So what if I have a contractual obligation?
speedracer
Banned
[quote name='UncleBob']*I'm stuck in the middle with you...*
[/QUOTE]
Oh, and on this. USA Today, you.
Public sector gets to count every Jack In The Box employee, every lettuce picker, and every ditch digger against its median. Guess how many minimum wage federal jobs there are? Not many. But if you compare like educations, the story changes drastically. Blue collar government employees come out slightly ahead. White collar workers get screwed though. Private sector pays far more.
Need pics plz lol
http://epi.3cdn.net/8808ae41b085032c0b_8um6bh5ty.pdf
Oh, and on this. USA Today,
you. Public sector gets to count every Jack In The Box employee, every lettuce picker, and every ditch digger against its median. Guess how many minimum wage federal jobs there are? Not many. But if you compare like educations, the story changes drastically. Blue collar government employees come out slightly ahead. White collar workers get screwed though. Private sector pays far more.
Need pics plz lol
http://epi.3cdn.net/8808ae41b085032c0b_8um6bh5ty.pdf
Yep, you can't make broad comparisons when trying to argue public sector jobs pay to much.
Looking at medians is biased for the reason you note as there just aren't many minimum wage type government jobs. If any, they probably pay janitors etc. more as it looks bad for government to pay only minimum wage.
The education breakdown makes much more sense. I can speak to the doctorate part. I don't make near that much being a year and a half or so into my career out of grad school, but I could pretty easily make $10-15K a year more in the private sector based on the job openings that have gotten past my way the past couple of years.
Looking at medians is biased for the reason you note as there just aren't many minimum wage type government jobs. If any, they probably pay janitors etc. more as it looks bad for government to pay only minimum wage.
The education breakdown makes much more sense. I can speak to the doctorate part. I don't make near that much being a year and a half or so into my career out of grad school, but I could pretty easily make $10-15K a year more in the private sector based on the job openings that have gotten past my way the past couple of years.
[quote name='Clak']Where do high school graduates make $50k a year? Certainly not near me. My father worked for years in a union factory and made what was considered good money, but he didn't make $50k a year, $45k maybe.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I can't see the median being that high.
My dad made more than that with a union telephone company job his last 15 years or so. But that was with a good bit of overtime and having been paid a lot less the first few years on the job.
But I guess that would include all the skilled trades like electricians, mechanics, plumbers etc. that do get paid well and don't have any college degrees (just trade certifications etc.) which could bump it up.
But hard to image that would be enough to outweigh all the minimum wage jobs and get the high school education median up to $50k.
Yeah, I can't see the median being that high.
My dad made more than that with a union telephone company job his last 15 years or so. But that was with a good bit of overtime and having been paid a lot less the first few years on the job.
But I guess that would include all the skilled trades like electricians, mechanics, plumbers etc. that do get paid well and don't have any college degrees (just trade certifications etc.) which could bump it up.
But hard to image that would be enough to outweigh all the minimum wage jobs and get the high school education median up to $50k.
[quote name='dmaul1114']Looking at medians is biased for the reason you note as there just aren't many minimum wage type government jobs. If any, they probably pay janitors etc. more as it looks bad for government to pay only minimum wage.[/QUOTE]
So, the argument is that like jobs in the government tend to pay less than like jobs in the private sector.
To make this argument, the example is how there aren't many minimum wage government jobs, that they even pay the janitors, a job that's typically minimum wage in the private sector, above minimum wage (i.e.: more than the private sector).
Can someone pass the popcorn?
So, the argument is that like jobs in the government tend to pay less than like jobs in the private sector.
To make this argument, the example is how there aren't many minimum wage government jobs, that they even pay the janitors, a job that's typically minimum wage in the private sector, above minimum wage (i.e.: more than the private sector).
Can someone pass the popcorn?
[quote name='UncleBob']So, the argument is that like jobs in the government tend to pay less than like jobs in the private sector.
To make this argument, the example is how there aren't many minimum wage government jobs, that they even pay the janitors, a job that's typically minimum wage in the private sector, above minimum wage (i.e.: more than the private sector).
Can someone pass the popcorn?[/QUOTE]
It's not rocket science.
At the low end, no skill service jobs, the government over pays relative to the private sector.
But at the middle and upper end of the job market--where the majority of salary money goes--the government underpays relative to the private market.
Thus on average government jobs median salaries are lower as they're only over paying at low income levels. And they're aren't many of those kind of jobs in the public sector to begin with as we aren't talking factories, customer service reps, retail clerks etc. in government jobs like you have in the private sector. They're just aren't many no skill, minimum wage type jobs in there beyond janitors etc.
To make this argument, the example is how there aren't many minimum wage government jobs, that they even pay the janitors, a job that's typically minimum wage in the private sector, above minimum wage (i.e.: more than the private sector).
Can someone pass the popcorn?[/QUOTE]
It's not rocket science.
At the low end, no skill service jobs, the government over pays relative to the private sector.
But at the middle and upper end of the job market--where the majority of salary money goes--the government underpays relative to the private market.
Thus on average government jobs median salaries are lower as they're only over paying at low income levels. And they're aren't many of those kind of jobs in the public sector to begin with as we aren't talking factories, customer service reps, retail clerks etc. in government jobs like you have in the private sector. They're just aren't many no skill, minimum wage type jobs in there beyond janitors etc.
[quote name='dmaul1114']Yeah, I can't see the median being that high.
My dad made more than that with a union telephone company job his last 15 years or so. But that was with a good bit of overtime and having been paid a lot less the first few years on the job.
But I guess that would include all the skilled trades like electricians, mechanics, plumbers etc. that do get paid well and don't have any college degrees (just trade certifications etc.) which could bump it up.
But hard to image that would be enough to outweigh all the minimum wage jobs and get the high school education median up to $50k.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, seems hard to believe that there are enough skilled high school graduates to keep it that high.
My dad made more than that with a union telephone company job his last 15 years or so. But that was with a good bit of overtime and having been paid a lot less the first few years on the job.
But I guess that would include all the skilled trades like electricians, mechanics, plumbers etc. that do get paid well and don't have any college degrees (just trade certifications etc.) which could bump it up.
But hard to image that would be enough to outweigh all the minimum wage jobs and get the high school education median up to $50k.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, seems hard to believe that there are enough skilled high school graduates to keep it that high.
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Feeding the Abscess
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Are professional athletes included in the private sector column? Basketball (and baseball, too) has dozens of guys who either didn't go to college or didn't graduate who make $10+ mil a year.
speedracer
Banned
That's total compensation, not just wages.
True, but $50K still seems a tad high at the median for high school only since a large chunk of those folks would have low paying jobs with no benefits.
The atheletes (and movie stars etc.) angle is a good point though as there are of course outliers making millions with only high school education that could skew the median. Still surprised it's that high given how many no benefit and part time jobs are out there.
The atheletes (and movie stars etc.) angle is a good point though as there are of course outliers making millions with only high school education that could skew the median. Still surprised it's that high given how many no benefit and part time jobs are out there.
speedracer
Banned
Sarkozy today:
We're at the point where French politicians are being fiscally sound and meeting contractual obligations and American politicians are proud of the fact that they aren't. This is a strange world.
bread's done