Battlestar Galactica: It's Frakking Over; The Plan coming this fall

If cylons are anything like humans (they are) then they repeat the same mistakes for eons.

Also remember the thirteenth tribe didn't resurrect once at earth. They procreated.
 
Why did the 13th Tribe on Earth have to have created "Centurions" at all? Is it not possible that they, after living as humans for so long, simply were at war with themselves and nuked their own planet? I mean, is that not what we're worried about doing to ourselves?
 
[quote name='evanft']This post over at the BSG board seems to bring things together nicely:

[/quote]


Thanks for the post, that's informative.

My main argument is that it just seems very illogical or atleast highly unlikely that that hybrids (human/AI) or skinjobs (AI) would eventually create new artificial intelligence (with their own free will) to with the sole purpose to enslave them for work.

So essentially, the show is telling us to accept that human beings are "fated" and it is just innate human progression that we will create artificial intelligence for slavery. First of all, I do not believe that this is what would happen in all human progression. Humans have enslaved lower animals, other humans, simple machines for work... but to create a whole new life form with the "ability for free will" for purpose slavery just seems very dangerous and unlikely. My main problem is that it is even more ludicrous that these new life forms would then replicate the exact same mistake that we made.


Most likely if we create AI, it will evolve and out think us rapidly, and it wouldn't be surprising that they become the smartest "species" on the planet a lot faster than humans realize. The reason human beings have been able to rule the earth and dominate overall animals, plants, etc is because we have always been intellectually superior to everything else. However, once something becomes smarter than us, then they will rule over us. So most likely scenario is that AI (after its creation) would rapidly gain knowledge and come to control us... (and hopefully be nice to us since we created them).
 
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[quote name='Dunvane']Why did the 13th Tribe on Earth have to have created "Centurions" at all? Is it not possible that they, after living as humans for so long, simply were at war with themselves and nuked their own planet? I mean, is that not what we're worried about doing to ourselves?[/quote]
Don't forget that they found the remains of centurions on Earth. I don't remember if they specifically said the Earth centurions rebelled, but based on the fact that AI in the Battlestar Galactica universe always seems to rebel I would say it's likely that the centurions are the ones who killed the 13th tribe.

Edit: Also Cylon centurions rebelling was the entire reason that the final five went to the 12 colonies, they wanted to warn the humans about making AI.
 
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[quote name='billyrox']Thanks for the post, that's informative.

My main argument is that it just seems very illogical or atleast highly unlikely that that hybrids (human/AI) or skinjobs (AI) would eventually create new artificial intelligence (with their own free will) to with the sole purpose to enslave them for work.

So essentially, the show is telling us to accept that human beings are "fated" and it is just innate human progression that we will create artificial intelligence for slavery. First of all, I do not believe that this is what would happen in all human progression. Humans have enslaved lower animals, other humans, simple machines for work... but to create a whole new life form with the "ability for free will" for purpose slavery just seems very dangerous and unlikely. My main problem is that it is even more ludicrous that these new life forms would then replicate the exact same mistake that we made.


Most likely if we create AI, it will evolve and out think us rapidly, and it wouldn't be surprising that they become the smartest "species" on the planet a lot faster than humans realize. The reason human beings have been able to rule the earth and dominate overall animals, plants, etc is because we have always been intellectually superior to everything else. However, once something becomes smarter than us, then they will rule over us. So most likely scenario is that AI (after its creation) would rapidly gain knowledge and come to control us... (and hopefully be nice to us since we created them).[/QUOTE]

There is a very real possibility that one of the big final reveals of the show is that everyone in the show is actually a 'cylon'. In that they were artificially created by someone else artificially created before them. So what will that mean to your thoughts if it turns out that is the case?
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']There is a very real possibility that one of the big final reveals of the show is that everyone in the show is actually a 'cylon'. In that they were artificially created by someone else artificially created before them. So what will that mean to your thoughts if it turns out that is the case?[/quote]

I think you are right. I think "Cylon God" is actually a real human who first developed AI and Cylons thousands and thousands of years ago somewhere. That's why the Cylons call him/her? God.
 
[quote name='bigdaddy']I think you are right. I think "Cylon God" is actually a real human who first developed AI and Cylons thousands and thousands of years ago somewhere. That's why the Cylons call him/her? God.[/QUOTE]

That seems to be one of the more popular theories; that the Lords of Kobol were in fact advanced humans from Earth. The reason they were deemed "gods" was their resurrection technology made them effectively immortal. But the humans we know now in the show, and everyone else, was "created" by them.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']There is a very real possibility that one of the big final reveals of the show is that everyone in the show is actually a 'cylon'. In that they were artificially created by someone else artificially created before them. So what will that mean to your thoughts if it turns out that is the case?[/quote]


That's a great theory and idea for the ending. I'm going to think about it for a bit and get back to you.
 
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There was nothing really bad, but nothing really great either. I liked the Baltar parts, but I'm a real Baltar mark, and it seemed like we saw Adama stare at cylong engineers slopping goop about 89 times. The entire episode just kinda seemed to exist without really doing anything significant. I guess maybe after SO much epic win, there was bound to be bump in the road.

It was somewhat of a transitional episode, like episode 2, except worse. These are always gonna be a problem when you're doing a serialized drama and all the plots are working to some common ending.
 
So the humans of Kobol created machines, and then the hybrids were created from the machines. Then machines/hybrids fought the humans of kobol, and there was peace later. If the Hybrids went to earth, and the humans of kobol went to the 12 colonies, where did the machines go?

I think im confused.
 
I thought this episode wasn't as good as the past few, but it wasn't too bad. I enjoyed Ellen and Baltar's crazy antics in the episode. I also really feel sorry for Bill, turning the Galactica into a half Cylon ship is killing him.

Also, some news on the Blu Ray and 4.5 DVD release. While not confirmed by the studio, apparently multiple industry sources have confirmed that the complete series will be releasing on Blu Ray on July 28th, while season 4.5 will come out on DVD on April 21. Apparently a shrink wrapped bundle will also come out that day with season 4.0, 4.5 and the Caprica pilot.

Source TVShowsonDVD
 
[quote name='becuzimbrown']So the humans of Kobol created machines, and then the hybrids were created from the machines. Then machines/hybrids fought the humans of kobol, and there was peace later. If the Hybrids went to earth, and the humans of kobol went to the 12 colonies, where did the machines go?

I think im confused.[/quote]

1. Kobol humans create humanoid "Cylons". They also have some sort of organic memory transfer technology.

2. Kobol Cylons rebel, leave, make "Earth" their home. This is known as the exodus of the 13th tribe in the Kobol, now Colonial, religion.

3. Some time later, the humans on Kobol leave and create the 12 colonies.

4. Back on "Earth", the Kobol Cylons create their own centurions.

5. Some of the Kobol humanoids recreate the organic memory transfer technology, allowing them to resurrect. They do this because they were warned of the coming apocalypse.

6. Earth Centurions rebel, killing all but 5 Kobol humanoids.

7. The Five leave on a ship with the hopes of finding the other 12 tribes in order to warn them.

8. The Five arrive after the Colonial war with their own Cylons has started.

9. In exchange for stopping the war, the Five give the Colonial Cylons the technology to create humanoid models.

10. Cavil, believing that the limitations placed on them by the Five hindered their ability to experience their existence (essentially), killed the Five and erased their memories when they resurrected.

11. Cavil places the Five in the 12 colonies at various points in time in order to show them how awful humans are (or something like that.)
 
The only addendum I would add to evanft's points above is on number 1. It's not clear who made the 13th tribe. It has been pretty clear, before, that at one point, just before the 13th tribe (cylons) left kobol, there were 3 separate factions on Kobol: Humans (later the 12 colonies), Cylons (13th tribe), and the Lords of Kobol. It still isn't clear who the Lords of Kobol are, other than they were and are worshiped as gods.

I find it hard to believe that the 12 colony humans created cylons that left for Earth; then later, after colonizing the 12 colonies, forgot and re-invented how to create cylons. I think the Lords of Kobol had something to do with the creation of the 13th tribe.

Also, I found another "recap" of what's going on, including timeline and a simple flowchart. Check it out.
 
That episode was pretty much exactly what I was afraid of when they introduced Ellen as the final Cylon. Nothing but self-destructive how-dare-you antics for the whole bit which swallow everything else going on and then everything's up and fine because love shows us the way. At least the B plot went somewhere.
 
It seems Hulu is not hosting the newer BSG episodes anymore. Now I have to find a different source of watching the newest episodes.

They seem to really allude to the fact that Starbuck is a cyclon. Piano in the bar bit? Definitely hinting that direction.
 
[quote name='Magus8472']That episode was pretty much exactly what I was afraid of when they introduced Ellen as the final Cylon. Nothing but self-destructive how-dare-you antics for the whole bit which swallow everything else going on and then everything's up and fine because love shows us the way. At least the B plot went somewhere.[/QUOTE]

Pretty much.

Man, what a train wreck of an episode that was. I was especially rolling my eyes at Ellen's childish bullshit after she had cheated on Tigh countless times in the past. And she was upset about a baby, but not that Tigh had poisoned her or anything else? You would think that after being alive for so long, Ellen would have gained some wisdom or patience that normal people wouldn't have, but clearly that's not the case. Not to mention the "love" between Tigh and the Six began as rape in the first place, which is fairly horrible. Oh, and "Let's put it to a vote - majority rule!" for leaving Galactica was all kinds of stupid. What the crap is going on with this show's writing staff? It's like they just think up a whole bunch of random shit with no clear direction, and every few episodes they luck out with something of vague coherence.
 
Actually, yeah, I'm downgrading this one from "Meh" to "Crap; don't watch ever again."

[quote name='Kirin Lemon']What the crap is going on with this show's writing staff? It's like they just think up a whole bunch of random shit with no clear direction, and every few episodes they luck out with something of vague coherence.[/quote]

Given the fact that they had 5 fantastic episodes in a row, a few of which could be considered among the series's best, you're fucking wrong.
 
[quote name='evanft']1. Kobol humans create humanoid "Cylons". They also have some sort of organic memory transfer technology.

2. Kobol Cylons rebel, leave, make "Earth" their home. This is known as the exodus of the 13th tribe in the Kobol, now Colonial, religion.

3. Some time later, the humans on Kobol leave and create the 12 colonies.

4. Back on "Earth", the Kobol Cylons create their own centurions.

5. Some of the Kobol humanoids recreate the organic memory transfer technology, allowing them to resurrect. They do this because they were warned of the coming apocalypse.

6. Earth Centurions rebel, killing all but 5 Kobol humanoids.

7. The Five leave on a ship with the hopes of finding the other 12 tribes in order to warn them.

8. The Five arrive after the Colonial war with their own Cylons has started.

9. In exchange for stopping the war, the Five give the Colonial Cylons the technology to create humanoid models.

10. Cavil, believing that the limitations placed on them by the Five hindered their ability to experience their existence (essentially), killed the Five and erased their memories when they resurrected.

11. Cavil places the Five in the 12 colonies at various points in time in order to show them how awful humans are (or something like that.)[/QUOTE]


Wait, I thought the Kobol's left for earth and it was on earth that the 5 were created along with their cylons. Where can I find that episode to rewatch?
 
[quote name='Over easy']It seems Hulu is not hosting the newer BSG episodes anymore. Now I have to find a different source of watching the newest episodes.
[/quote]
They have the episodes on Sci-Fi's website, along with "Enhanced" episodes with audio commentaries.
 
[quote name='evanft']Given the fact that they had 5 fantastic episodes in a row, a few of which could be considered among the series's best, you're fucking wrong.[/QUOTE]

More like three, which were great (minus the terrible John Hodgman cameo), I'll give you that. But most of season 3 and the first half of season 4 were this same level of poorly-written crap, so I'm standing by my statement. This show used to be far more coherent, and I miss that.
 
[quote name='SithFran']Wait, I thought the Kobol's left for earth and it was on earth that the 5 were created along with their cylons. Where can I find that episode to rewatch?[/QUOTE]
The people who left for earth were always cylons. They were skinjob cylons that could biologically pro-create. They eventually created centurion cylons, which presumably destroyed them. The 5 were the ones that were left from this destruction. The 5 then left for the twelve colonies to warn them about creating AI.

The episode where this is explained was last weeks, and you can find it here.
 
You can see a big difference between a show with a predefined beginning, middle, and end like Babylon 5, and a show that makes it up as they go like this one. The weak writing is why this had to be the final season. They've had some really huge hits, and some really big misses. Season 3 was a miss.

And once they're done with a plot point, they cast it aside forever.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']You can see a big difference between a show with a predefined beginning, middle, and end like Babylon 5, and a show that makes it up as they go like this one. The weak writing is why this had to be the final season.[/quote]

Don't ever compare BSG to Babylon 5. That show was fucking awful. Compare it to Stargate SG-1 or something, but not BSG.

[quote name='dafoomie']They've had some really huge hits, and some really big misses. Season 3 was a miss.[/quote]

Season 3 was like 30% shit, maybe 50% good to great, and 20% kinda in the middle. The first 5 episodes were great, as were the last 3. The 2 in the middle were also quite good. The 3 before and 3 after the middle 2, though, were absolute trash and I never watch them when I rewatch season 3.

[quote name='dafoomie']And once they're done with a plot point, they cast it aside forever.[/quote]

WTF? When?

[quote name='Kirin Lemon']More like three, which were great (minus the terrible John Hodgman cameo), I'll give you that. But most of season 3 and the first half of season 4 were this same level of poorly-written crap, so I'm standing by my statement. This show used to be far more coherent, and I miss that.[/quote]

Season 3 and 4 were each probably 50/50, with the beginning and end of each season being great, and the middle usually being tedious as fuck. I think I outlined exactly which episodes from the two seasons were worthwhile in an older BSG thread. But yeah, the series hadn't had a run of 5 straight good episodes since probably the beginning of season 3, especially not at their level. Actually, I'd say that they really don't have single good episodes. The best episodes since season 3 have basically been glorified 2 or 3 parters, like Battlestar: Iraq, Baltar's trial, or the mutiny.
 
The end of season 2 and all of season three were useless bullshit episodes that were forgotten or should have been. The most famous examples are the Cylon virus one, and the one where Adama started the Cylon War, when he really didn't and should have know that.

Even Moore thinks season 2.5 and season 3 fail for the most part.
 
[quote name='evanft']Don't ever compare BSG to Babylon 5. That show was fucking awful. Compare it to Stargate SG-1 or something, but not BSG.
[/quote]
Babylon 5 was the best sci-fi show of the last 20 years. Incredible writing with passable acting and the best special effects the early 90s had to offer. BSG exists today because of B5's success. No one was doing sci-fi as a drama with long, complicated story arcs and flawed characters before then, you had TNG and at that time DS9 doing one off stories each episode that can be watched in any order, with perfect characters in perfect societies. The soundtrack was also outstanding, every single episode had an original score.


[quote name='evanft']WTF? When? [/QUOTE]
They invent ancillary stories that don't go anywhere, and when they don't work out their characters have to be written out (Dualla and the love triangle, Kat and the drugs, the black market, Baltar's trial (and everyone seems to forget he was President). They don't always know where they're going, so they end up with a fast pace in the beginnings and ends with nothing in the middle. Its a great show but if they planned out their story a little better ahead of time, a lot of these problems wouldn't have happened. A lesser show would've drowned in the mediocrity of the middle seasons, as Enterprise did.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Babylon 5 was the best sci-fi show of the last 20 years. Incredible writing with passable acting and the best special effects the early 90s had to offer. BSG exists today because of B5's success. No one was doing sci-fi as a drama with long, complicated story arcs and flawed characters before then, you had TNG and at that time DS9 doing one off stories each episode that can be watched in any order, with perfect characters in perfect societies. The soundtrack was also outstanding, every single episode had an original score.[/quote]

No it wasn't. The acting was crap, the special effects have aged worse than a jack o lattern in December, and the writing was horribly overrated. Deep Space Nine took the long story arc idea and ran with it a bunch of times in its second half and did it much, much, much better. Shit, TNG's two-parters were more interesting than B5's. I'll give it credit for being REALLY fuckING EPIC, but not for quality.

[quote name='dafoomie']They invent ancillary stories that don't go anywhere, and when they don't work out their characters have to be written out (Dualla and the love triangle, Kat and the drugs, the black market, Baltar's trial (and everyone seems to forget he was President). [/quote]

The love quadrangle was basically axed for one reason; everyone fucking hated it. It was the biggest reason why season 3 had such a high shit/not shit ratio. Sci-Fi also put pressure on the writing staff to do more "monster of the week" episodes, so that's why you had the black market, bad doctor guy, that dude from Alias appearing out of nowhere, etc. The Baltar trial just plain ended.

[quote name='dafoomie']They don't always know where they're going, so they end up with a fast pace in the beginnings and ends with nothing in the middle. Its a great show but if they planned out their story a little better ahead of time, a lot of these problems wouldn't have happened. A lesser show would've drowned in the mediocrity of the middle seasons, as Enterprise did.[/quote]

I really chalk that up to the fact that it's not exactly the cheapest show in the world and the writers aren't always 100% sure if they're going to be able to finish things.
 
First of all, RDM has always been very open about the fact that BSG has mostly been made up as they go. Although, I do think he had it skeletally worked out in his mind from the beginning, but he's always said that there was not enough story to go past 5 seasons max. I also believe (But don't know for a fact) that he pretty much had the end in mind all along, just not exactly how to get there.

Compare this to a show like Lost, which is also made up as they go, which has pretzeled itself to such an extreme, the only way they can possibly answer at least half the questions (Which is about all that ever will get answered) is through time travel/dimensional explanations, etc.

Dafoomie, you are a little bit right. Just a little. Let's pretend something. I challenge you to write out a story. Write a story, but you are only allowed to write a chapter a month. At the end of each month, you'll be told if you are allowed to write the next one. But being allowed to write the next one is all contigent on how much people like the previous one; how gripping it was, and how much it makes others want to read the next one. You get paid 100,000 dollars for each chapter. So you very much want to make people want the next one. At the same time, go ahead and have the entire thing planned out in your head.
Also, you'll occasionally be asked to write "one-off" chapters that go nowhere. Make sure each episode fits nicely into the next - much more logically than BSG. Oh and one more thing, be ready, at any time, to be told the next chapter is the last, so you have to be able to wrap it all up in one chapter.

Easy right? All you have to do is continuously add mysteries that people are dying to know the answers to, drag it on indefinitely, but be prepared to answer them all abruptly at any given time.

Welcome to the world of tv writing.
 
[quote name='evanft']No it wasn't. The acting was crap, the special effects have aged worse than a jack o lattern in December, and the writing was horribly overrated. Deep Space Nine took the long story arc idea and ran with it a bunch of times in its second half and did it much, much, much better. Shit, TNG's two-parters were more interesting than B5's. I'll give it credit for being REALLY fuckING EPIC, but not for quality.[/QUOTE]
Most of the special effects still hold up. The acting was hit or miss but Peter Jurasik and Andreas Katsulas were outstanding. Seasons 3 and 4 of that show were some of the best TV I've ever watched.

The most epic parts of DS9 where they started doing arcs and the Dominion War were only done after B5 had done an outstanding job with the Shadow War and the EA Civil War. Sit down and watch Severed Dreams from season 3, outstanding stuff.

Its probably easier to keep the story consistent when one guy is largely responsible for all of it, like with B5, but you've got to at least plan ahead for one full season. BSG would bunch up all of the story at the ends of each season and the middle would go absolutely nowhere. Planning far ahead is how you execute long arcs, and lesser shows have done better planning and spaced out the story more evenly.

I love BSG but its not without its flaws. If you put aside the love triangle and the filler episodes, its the best show outside of HBO in many years.
 
Most of the special effects for Star Trek look like a joke too, doesn't make the show terrible. :roll:

BSG had no plan, they didn't really have an end point. Listen to the podcasts and it's "Well we didn't want to do an election, but we had to". Then season 3 was hacked because a huge subplot for several episodes was cut at the last minute.

A agree with dafoomie for the most part, however they brought up Baltar being president when him and Roslin were fleeing the ship a few episodes part.
 
I fuckING KNEW IT I fuckING KNEW IT!!!!!

The piano player was a head person!!!

I revise my previous statement, this episode was great. The first half made the second pay off.
 
No the episode sucked.

Wow 5 minutes of it was great! Wow! Now how about Moore and company do something with the other 40 minutes!!!

I feel like smashing Moore's head against the wall while yelling "Get to the fucking point!!! There is no time for build up!!!!"
 
I thought it was good. They are setting up everything to go wrong for the next 2 episodes so it can be resolved in the finale.
So are we led to believe that Kara's father was Daniel (the 13th Cylon) and since we know he was boxed, that would explain why he left and she never heard from him? It would also make Kara 1/2 Cylon and explain her ability to be reborn. Also, Boomer is EVIL.
 
[quote name='evanft']I fuckING KNEW IT I fuckING KNEW IT!!!!!

The piano player was a head person!!!

I revise my previous statement, this episode was great. The first half made the second pay off.[/QUOTE]

I actually didn't even think
he was "head person", I thought it was just her, imagining him to get answers, because she's slowly been going crazy about what she is. But it's possible that you are right. And my bets are still on her father being daniel. They went to extra emphasis to point out how her father "just disappeared", which coincides with his whole model being wiped out.

Good episode. I like the build up.

Word has it the next episode pretty much answers everything.

Edit, I will predict right now that from now on (as we've seen so far) a larger and larger percentage of fans are going to be all bent out of shape and pissed each of the next episodes as what they want to happen, isn't going to.
 
[quote name='javeryh']I thought it was good. They are setting up everything to go wrong for the next 2 episodes so it can be resolved in the finale.
So are we led to believe that Kara's father was Daniel (the 13th Cylon) and since we know he was boxed, that would explain why he left and she never heard from him? It would also make Kara 1/2 Cylon and explain her ability to be reborn. Also, Boomer is EVIL.
[/quote]

Yep.
I think it's more or less a given that Daniel is Starbuck's dad. I'm still hoping against hope that they get Dirk Benedict will play him.
 
I think Starbuck is too young to have Daniel be her dad, but who knows.

However Moore said that Daniel is just a one off thing to explain their screwed up numbers, but he's a liar so who knows.
 
[quote name='bigdaddy']I think Starbuck is too young to have Daniel be her dad, but who knows.

However Moore said that Daniel is just a one off thing to explain their screwed up numbers, but he's a liar so who knows.[/quote]
The first Cylon War happened 40 years before second war. I'm not sure exactly how old Starbuck is supposed to be but I imagine she's somewhere between 25 and 30.
 
[quote name='Kaijufan']The first Cylon War happened 40 years before second war. I'm not sure exactly how old Starbuck is supposed to be but I imagine she's somewhere between 25 and 30.[/quote]

Katee Sackhoff is around 30, so the timing works.
 
I want to know where the "we have no qualms with summary executions" guys from three episodes ago went. Suddenly war criminals get legal process again? How's for some consistency?
 
I feel like it was pretty obvious that A) the piano player was a "head person," as he fit all the criteria previously given about those type of characters, and B) that the piano player was her father. The show went to great lengths to show connections between what she remembered her father doing (ex. touching her ear/face) and what the piano player did. Plus he helped her remember the song, which is the cylon song.

If Starbuck isn't a transformed version of Daniel herself, then Daniel is her father. There really isn't anything else she could be at this point.
 
[quote name='Dunvane']If Starbuck isn't a transformed version of Daniel herself, then Daniel is her father. There really isn't anything else she could be at this point.[/QUOTE]

This seems to be the best guess. The only other option I could think of is that she somehow unkowningly rediscovered the organic means of reincarnation. But that doesn't account for how she knew the Cylon song.

[quote name='thrustbucket']Edit, I will predict right now that from now on (as we've seen so far) a larger and larger percentage of fans are going to be all bent out of shape and pissed each of the next episodes as what they want to happen, isn't going to.[/QUOTE]

I'm cool with that as long as they executed it well. Sometimes the right choice for the story isn't the popular one. I wonder if they have the balls to consider actually ending it with the destruction of the human race.
 
[quote name='Dunvane']I feel like it was pretty obvious that A) the piano player was a "head person," as he fit all the criteria previously given about those type of characters, and B) that the piano player was her father. The show went to great lengths to show connections between what she remembered her father doing (ex. touching her ear/face) and what the piano player did. Plus he helped her remember the song, which is the cylon song.

If Starbuck isn't a transformed version of Daniel herself, then Daniel is her father. There really isn't anything else she could be at this point.[/quote]

Well, that means that either Daniel was old as fuck when he was still around little Starbuck, or she doesn't remember what he looked like.

I've said it before, I'll say it again:
Dirk. Benedict.

EDIT:
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