Bush fails a global test

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']I reject the phrase in its entirety let alone support its use or defend its redundant meaning.[/quote]

[quote name='PittsburchAfterDark']What responsibility do we have to pay one damn dime for relief?[/quote]

Well, you've rejected half of it, anyway.
 
Yes, you're right, the muslim nations are silent. But that doesn't mean the US should be too. We're the most powerful, richest nation, and we should be leading by example.
 
jmcc, you are a pure unadulterated bigot. How do you think one nut job pastor putting out a flyer is in any way indictitive of a political party, President, Congress or people that voted for the above?

Are you so desperate to portray conservatives, Republicans and George W. Bush in a negative light that you'll result on a ditto produced and distributed to probably less than 500 people, before posted on the internet, to prove your point? Would you not cry bloody fucking murder if I took the most extreme leftist bilge that comes from the fringe on the other side and used it to paint the "loyal opposition" in this country?

I guess when you're a bigot against Christians and the sitting majority anything goes right?
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']You fail to see one thing, I never use the phrase compassion conservatism. I don't believe it's necessary, it is redundant. It's a marketing tool one person, George W. Bush, has used I don't.

Conservatism in itself is compassionate. It is compassionate to let more people keep more of their money to decide how to use it. It is compassionate to get more people off the government dole and self sufficent so they can make more working than they would had government susistence levels. It is compassionate to have a military strong enough that it never needs to be used and wars never be fought. It is compassionate to let people decide their own medical, retirement and educational fates than have it dictated by a government that neither knows or cares about individual situations and is more concerned with growing and maintaining bureacracy.

I reject the phrase in its entirety let alone support its use or defend its redundant meaning.[/quote]

Compassionate conservatism also means saving the lives of children (unless they're already born, then screw them).
 
You're missing my point entirely EZB. It's up to individuals and organizations to handle this. Not the government. To date money raised outside U.S. government contributions by U.S. citizens, charities, religous organizations and corporations dwarfs those of any other nation. We give more in disaster relief privately than we do from the government. Our people lead by example in each and every world crisis.

There is no point for our government to get invovled, our citizens do a good enough job on their own.

In addition to that we have 18,000 armed services personnel and an entire aircraft carrier group providing logistical support that is not included in our, to date, $350 million pledge of aid. We give and we give and we give. It's in our populations makeup and is not exclusive to one party, one political belief system or one ruling class or another.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']jmcc, you are a pure unadulterated bigot. How do you think one nut job pastor putting out a flyer is in any way indictitive of a political party, President, Congress or people that voted for the above?

Are you so desperate to portray conservatives, Republicans and George W. Bush in a negative light that you'll result on a ditto produced and distributed to probably less than 500 people, before posted on the internet, to prove your point? Would you not cry bloody shaq-fuing murder if I took the most extreme leftist bilge that comes from the fringe on the other side and used it to paint the "loyal opposition" in this country?

I guess when you're a bigot against Christians and the sitting majority anything goes right?[/quote]

Oh man, I'm going to end up in court now and your defense attorney is going to have you on the stand all like "PAD, would you please show the court on this neuroscientific body map exactly which nerve Jmcc touched?" And you'll point to a big huge one and start sobbing some more and the jury will all gasp and I'll stand up and start shouting that you're a damn liar and get ejected for contempt. All because I pointed out your foible. Well, sorry I hurt the feelings of your friends at that church. Go ahead. Post your cheap shot worse example of the liberal party at work. It's only fair.
 
What foible did you potentially address? None.

If there were an equivilent of a white robe wearing cross burning anti-conservative group though you'd be the first one signed up. Well you might have to fight a few others on this board but your bigotry is in the same vein and just as ill intentioned.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']What foible did you potentially address? None.

If there were an equivilent of a white robe wearing cross burning anti-conservative group though you'd be the first one signed up. Well you might have to fight a few others on this board but your bigotry is in the same vein and just as ill intentioned.[/quote]

You said you were against conservative compassion because it was redundant, I pointed out that you certainly didn't have to worry about the compassion part after your comments questioning why we have to give disaster relief money at all.

And I'm already part of a anti-conservative group. It's called the humanity. It abhors stagnation forced upon people for whatever reason, secular or sacred and it always wins out in the end, because Progress is it's credo and nothing holds back Progress for long.
 
Why don't you liberals post what your Idol, Clinton, said about bush taking too long?

He said it was bogus and that he was 100% behind Bush. I guess you all will post anti-Clinton stuff now.

Man, you people are idiots.

And I love how people bitch about not helping other countries, but when we helped the Iraqi people you liberal bitches couldn't stop saying how we didn't need to go over there. So shut the fuck up you liberal, hypocrite bitches.
 
[quote name='jmcc'][quote name='camoor'][quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']
You have nothing. All you can do is bitch and complain and say its your duty to question government. In reality you're whining spoil sports. You don't care about tragedy, you don't care about death and human misery. Your only wish is to criticize a President. Your lack of any kind of empathy and focus on the disaster itself is revealing; you care more about calling someone inhumane than putting those energies into raising money or doing good for millions and acting humane yourselves...

Good job, opposition like this is like playing 8-2 CTF on Mech Assault 2; easier than hell and gives us plenty of time to toy sadistically with your kind. [/quote]

PAD, this is the VS forum. It's the place to discuss shortcomings in government policy, there is already information about how to donate to the Tsunami effort on the front page of CAG, so there was no need for anyone (Democrat or Republican) to bring it up here.

PAD, I know you're trying to be the good guy here, so I'll give you some advice - stay away from phrases like "toy sadistically". They show the soft moral underbelly of your "compassionate conservatism".[/quote]

Compassionate conservatism in action!

*cut*

Boy, god really threw out the baby with the bathwater on that one, huh?[/quote]

Its rather hypocritical when the left says that Arabs or Muslims who are terrorists are extreamists that represent a small percentage of their people and then go off and denounce the right because of extreamists. Sure there are extreamists on both sides by why do you feel the need to bash us based on stuff like this when we're not doing the same to you?
 
Hey PAD - it's nice to see you on these boards again! I hate having to argue with Camoor, jmcc, and the gang all by myself.

Anyoo, Camoor, I've never gotten a final answer as to whether or you'll post (or pm) a quick bio.

[quote name='Conty begging Camoor for a quick bio - from another thread']My guess is that Camoor is a mid to upper class white guy - maybe in college, or just recently out of college - perhaps majored in one of the social "sciences."

I see that he lives in Arlington, so he must have a fair amount of money - or at least his dad does.

My guess is that he's never once faced social, political, religious, or economic strife in his life.

I just want to know if I'm right. [/quote]

Again - as I said before - your bio isn't necessarily releant to any facts - I am just curious to see what background you have.

whatever.
 
[quote name='The_Continental']Hey PAD - it's nice to see you on these boards again! I hate having to argue with Camoor, jmcc, and the gang all by myself.

Anyoo, Camoor, I've never gotten a final answer as to whether or you'll post (or pm) a quick bio.

[quote name='Conty begging Camoor for a quick bio - from another thread']My guess is that Camoor is a mid to upper class white guy - maybe in college, or just recently out of college - perhaps majored in one of the social "sciences."

I see that he lives in Arlington, so he must have a fair amount of money - or at least his dad does.

My guess is that he's never once faced social, political, religious, or economic strife in his life.

I just want to know if I'm right. [/quote]

Again - as I said before - your bio isn't necessarily releant to any facts - I am just curious to see what background you have.

whatever.[/quote]

I'm not presuming to speak for Camoor, but it seems like if he wanted to post his bio here, he would have by now.
 
True - but I've done most of the work for him - all he needs to do is say "yes" or "no."

I think he misinterperets my requests as a way to "judge" him, as it were. This is entirely not the case. I am just curious is all.

I could see how he might think that the bio quoted below sounds a bit harsh - I admit. - but that's only if he feels "guilty" for coming from a well to do family.

Again - no big deal, I'm not losing sleep over it.

(I am losing sleep over WoW tho' :wink: )

[quote name='MrBadExample'][quote name='The_Continental']Hey PAD - it's nice to see you on these boards again! I hate having to argue with Camoor, jmcc, and the gang all by myself.

Anyoo, Camoor, I've never gotten a final answer as to whether or you'll post (or pm) a quick bio.

[quote name='Conty begging Camoor for a quick bio - from another thread']My guess is that Camoor is a mid to upper class white guy - maybe in college, or just recently out of college - perhaps majored in one of the social "sciences."

I see that he lives in Arlington, so he must have a fair amount of money - or at least his dad does.

My guess is that he's never once faced social, political, religious, or economic strife in his life.

I just want to know if I'm right. [/quote]

Again - as I said before - your bio isn't necessarily releant to any facts - I am just curious to see what background you have.

whatever.[/quote]

I'm not presuming to speak for Camoor, but it seems like if he wanted to post his bio here, he would have by now.[/quote]
 
Please, no matter what Camoor says, you're just going to spin it to make it look like he's out of touch with normal Americans. If he came from a privleged background, you'll say that doesn't represent most people. If he came from a poor background, you'll say that he has a bias against the rich because he's jealous.

Its the new Republican creed: when you can't attack the message, attack the messenger. And even when you can attack the message, attack the messenger anyway because it works well with the hicks.
 
[quote name='Drocket']Please, no matter what Camoor says, you're just going to spin it to make it look like he's out of touch with normal Americans. If he came from a privleged background, you'll say that doesn't represent most people. If he came from a poor background, you'll say that he has a bias against the rich because he's jealous.

Its the new Republican creed: when you can't attack the message, attack the messenger. And even when you can attack the message, attack the messenger anyway because it works well with the hicks.[/quote]

How is that any different than slamming Bush because he got wealth from his father?
 
[quote name='The_Continental']True - but I've done most of the work for him - all he needs to do is say "yes" or "no."

I think he misinterperets my requests as a way to "judge" him, as it were. This is entirely not the case. I am just curious is all.

I could see how he might think that the bio quoted below sounds a bit harsh - I admit. - but that's only if he feels "guilty" for coming from a well to do family.

Again - no big deal, I'm not losing sleep over it.

(I am losing sleep over WoW tho' :wink: )

[quote name='MrBadExample'][quote name='The_Continental']Hey PAD - it's nice to see you on these boards again! I hate having to argue with Camoor, jmcc, and the gang all by myself.

Anyoo, Camoor, I've never gotten a final answer as to whether or you'll post (or pm) a quick bio.

[quote name='Conty begging Camoor for a quick bio - from another thread']My guess is that Camoor is a mid to upper class white guy - maybe in college, or just recently out of college - perhaps majored in one of the social "sciences."

I see that he lives in Arlington, so he must have a fair amount of money - or at least his dad does.

My guess is that he's never once faced social, political, religious, or economic strife in his life.

I just want to know if I'm right. [/quote]

Again - as I said before - your bio isn't necessarily releant to any facts - I am just curious to see what background you have.

whatever.[/quote]

I'm not presuming to speak for Camoor, but it seems like if he wanted to post his bio here, he would have by now.[/quote][/quote]

It's really getting kind of creepy at this point. You keep begging and begging for it. It's weird. I mean, is it some sex thing? Are you hoping to be able to find him and steal his underpants off his line?
 
[quote name='gamefreak'][quote name='Drocket']Please, no matter what Camoor says, you're just going to spin it to make it look like he's out of touch with normal Americans. If he came from a privleged background, you'll say that doesn't represent most people. If he came from a poor background, you'll say that he has a bias against the rich because he's jealous.

Its the new Republican creed: when you can't attack the message, attack the messenger. And even when you can attack the message, attack the messenger anyway because it works well with the hicks.[/quote]

How is that any different than slamming Bush because he got wealth from his father?[/quote]

Because Camoor's wealth, if any, likely didn't come from dealings with the Nazis?
 
If that's what you need to think, then sure - I guess...

:roll:

wierd.


[quote name='jmcc'][quote name='The_Continental']True - but I've done most of the work for him - all he needs to do is say "yes" or "no."

I think he misinterperets my requests as a way to "judge" him, as it were. This is entirely not the case. I am just curious is all.

I could see how he might think that the bio quoted below sounds a bit harsh - I admit. - but that's only if he feels "guilty" for coming from a well to do family.

Again - no big deal, I'm not losing sleep over it.

(I am losing sleep over WoW tho' :wink: )

[quote name='MrBadExample'][quote name='The_Continental']Hey PAD - it's nice to see you on these boards again! I hate having to argue with Camoor, jmcc, and the gang all by myself.

Anyoo, Camoor, I've never gotten a final answer as to whether or you'll post (or pm) a quick bio.

[quote name='Conty begging Camoor for a quick bio - from another thread']My guess is that Camoor is a mid to upper class white guy - maybe in college, or just recently out of college - perhaps majored in one of the social "sciences."

I see that he lives in Arlington, so he must have a fair amount of money - or at least his dad does.

My guess is that he's never once faced social, political, religious, or economic strife in his life.

I just want to know if I'm right. [/quote]

Again - as I said before - your bio isn't necessarily releant to any facts - I am just curious to see what background you have.

whatever.[/quote]

I'm not presuming to speak for Camoor, but it seems like if he wanted to post his bio here, he would have by now.[/quote][/quote]

It's really getting kind of creepy at this point. You keep begging and begging for it. It's weird. I mean, is it some sex thing? Are you hoping to be able to find him and steal his underpants off his line?[/quote]
 
[quote name='The_Continental']If that's what you need to think, then sure - I guess...

:roll:

wierd. [/quote]

What other excuse do you have for your stalking, then?
 
Oh here we go with the whole Prescott Bush got his money from the Nazi's lunacy. You're a card carrying member of the whacko extreme left all right. Any shred of credibility or hope just vanished with that statement.

You really should change your signature cartoon, I doubt there's one chick that has given you oral or had sex with you without an administration of GBH on your part.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Oh here we go with the whole Prescott Bush got his money from the Nazi's lunacy. You're a card carrying member of the whacko extreme left all right. Any shred of credibility or hope just vanished with that statement.

You really should change your signature cartoon, I doubt there's one chick that has given you oral or had sex with you without an administration of GBH on your part.[/quote]

They're just the facts, ma'am. http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030214.html
 
just curiosity - that's all.

Basically - I think *modern* socialists fall into 3 basic categories:

1. Assholes - because only an asshole would want to force people to live under a political ethos that encourages laziness and poverty.

2. Idiots - because hey, how can you be both a gamer and a scoialist anyway? Certainly anyone that understands basic econ couldn't be.

3. Shallow Bastards - cause only a shallow bastard would proclaim socialism in order to get pussy.

The fact of the matter is, Camoor hasn't yet proclaimed socialism. I'm not even sure he actually knows what it means. But man, he sure is left.

Anyways, no big deal. His daddy's money won't last forever.

[quote name='jmcc'][quote name='The_Continental']If that's what you need to think, then sure - I guess...

:roll:

wierd. [/quote]

What other excuse do you have for your stalking, then?[/quote]
 
[quote name='The_Continental']just curiosity - that's all.

Basically - I think *modern* socialists fall into 3 basic categories:

1. Assholes - because only an asshole would want to force people to live under a political ethos that encourages laziness and poverty.

2. Idiots - because hey, how can you be both a gamer and a scoialist anyway? Certainly anyone that understands basic econ couldn't be.

3. Shallow Bastards - cause only a shallow bastard would proclaim socialism in order to get pussy.

The fact of the matter is, Camoor hasn't yet proclaimed socialism. I'm not even sure he actually knows what it means. But man, he sure is left.

Anyways, no big deal. His daddy's money won't last forever.

[quote name='jmcc'][quote name='The_Continental']If that's what you need to think, then sure - I guess...

:roll:

wierd. [/quote]

What other excuse do you have for your stalking, then?[/quote][/quote]

I heard a few years ago that they use heat from crematoriums to warm housing in some socialist country in Europe. Sweeden, maybe? Are they socialist? Anyway, it seemed kinda creepy, but I guess it's alright. You're being useful even in death. I hope I'm useful after I die like that. Like maybe I could be frozen and my skull sharpened a little bit and I could put out a radioactive monster's eye or something.
 
Yeah - I think about that kind of stuff all the time too. :whistle2:s

[quote name='jmcc'] I hope I'm useful after I die like that. Like maybe I could be frozen and my skull sharpened a little bit and I could put out a radioactive monster's eye or something.[/quote]
 
btw - that doesn't seem to make any sense... wouldn't the oven need to create more heat to burn the body than the amount of energy the corpse would actually produce?

anyone know?
 
[quote name='The_Continental']btw - that doesn't seem to make any sense... wouldn't the oven need to create more heat to burn the body than the amount of energy the corpse would actually produce?

anyone know?[/quote]

Well it wasn't like they were running furnaces on it. That would require more energy than what you'd put in, but they were already burning the bodies at the crematorium in the funeral home, so someone got the idea to pipe the heat from that into houses, instead of just letting it go to waste like it had been. Our US body burners just exhaust their heat into the atmosphere as far as I know.
 
[quote name='jmcc'][quote name='The_Continental']btw - that doesn't seem to make any sense... wouldn't the oven need to create more heat to burn the body than the amount of energy the corpse would actually produce?

anyone know?[/quote]

Well it wasn't like they were running furnaces on it. That would require more energy than what you'd put in, but they were already burning the bodies at the crematorium in the funeral home, so someone got the idea to pipe the heat from that into houses, instead of just letting it go to waste like it had been. Our US body burners just exhaust their heat into the atmosphere as far as I know.[/quote]

Burning bodies -> increased pollutants -> ??? -> Tsunami
 
I think the majority of the "progressive" left falls into a category you left out. The guilty.

They feel guilty because of the accident of birth that made them a citizen of the richest nation in history. They feel guilty because they achieved some level of success financially and so many others haven't. Usually those kinds of people are famous actors/musicians/wiriters etc. They never really worked for their wealth, they never created a job directly, all of the wealth they create is for themselves or a coninuation of their record or movie studios wealth from not being able to milk past hits/groups/names.

The other type of progressive is the spoiled rich kid(s) that lament not only the accident of birth but are itching to rebel against "something". That something, in this case, is whatever party is in power.

The moral causes that liberalism tackled in the past; old people dying penniless, oppressed minorities, workers organizing rights etc have been solved and now need expanding on. We now need prescription drug benefits in addition to SSI and Medicare. We need talks of reparations. We need to unionize shops that have no desire to unionize; see Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes factories in this country.

Liberalism now isn't a moral crusade, it's a financial one. Everything they preach and wish to achieve comes at a financial price to someone other than them. Environmentalism takes away from property rights violating the basic tennant of a capitalist society. Organized labor; are places of employment that won't let you work unless you pay the union its thug like protection money truly free and open? Health care coverage; cha ching, lets nationalize 1/7th of GDP because 40 million out of 300 million don't have government approved "health care" forget that any one of those 40 million include 5-10 million 20 somethings that just don't think they need it, forget that that 40 million includes 10-15 million that switch jobs and as a result statistically become uninsured.

Liberalism now is socialism. There are few if any issues the left has that don't cost you, the government or someone else money and lots of it. It cost no money to give blacks the vote, what cause does the left tackle anymore that doesn't result in a huge expenditure by an enormous group of people that can "afford it".

Like I said, your movement is a joke and you're becoming irrelevent.

Funny how this thread has devolved into a "Bush sucks! They made their money from Nazis!" thread because the cogent points brought up by right thinking persons are irrefutable. Typical.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']I think the majority of the "progressive" left falls into a category you left out. The guilty.

They feel guilty because of the accident of birth that made them a citizen of the richest nation in history. They feel guilty because they achieved some level of success financially and so many others haven't. Usually those kinds of people are famous actors/musicians/wiriters etc. They never really worked for their wealth, they never created a job directly, all of the wealth they create is for themselves or a coninuation of their record or movie studios wealth from not being able to milk past hits/groups/names.

The other type of progressive is the spoiled rich kid(s) that lament not only the accident of birth but are itching to rebel against "something". That something, in this case, is whatever party is in power.

The moral causes that liberalism tackled in the past; old people dying penniless, oppressed minorities, workers organizing rights etc have been solved and now need expanding on. We now need prescription drug benefits in addition to SSI and Medicare. We need talks of reparations. We need to unionize shops that have no desire to unionize; see Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes factories in this country.

Liberalism now isn't a moral crusade, it's a financial one. Everything they preach and wish to achieve comes at a financial price to someone other than them. Environmentalism takes away from property rights violating the basic tennant of a capitalist society. Organized labor; are places of employment that won't let you work unless you pay the union its thug like protection money truly free and open? Health care coverage; cha ching, lets nationalize 1/7th of GDP because 40 million out of 300 million don't have government approved "health care" forget that any one of those 40 million include 5-10 million 20 somethings that just don't think they need it, forget that that 40 million includes 10-15 million that switch jobs and as a result statistically become uninsured.

Liberalism now is socialism. There are few if any issues the left has that don't cost you, the government or someone else money and lots of it. It cost no money to give blacks the vote, what cause does the left tackle anymore that doesn't result in a huge expenditure by an enormous group of people that can "afford it".

Like I said, your movement is a joke and you're becoming irrelevent.

Funny how this thread has devolved into a "Bush sucks! They made their money from Nazis!" thread because the cogent points brought up by right thinking persons are irrefutable. Typical.[/quote]

Blahblahblahblahblah. Every time you non sequitur a point up, you get it smacked back down in your face. Then, you bring up another one that's refuted right away again. I know you're just trolling, but Jesus, try to be a little interesting with your fagdancing.

In any case, try to find a society whose rules and morals haven't changed over the span of a century. Liberality=progression and that's the way society and nature at large works. You can live for now in your lovely neo-50s eutopia where there are no gay people and you're in a cold war with something, but it won't last the entire span of your life, assuming you're sub-60 years old, meaning the liberals. Put that in your pipe and suck it. You have a victory right now, but you can't win the war against change. Ever. Period.
 
Damn skippy PAD - It's great having you back on the boards.

I'm not sure they actually feel guilty at all, but they sure do want to convince the rest of the world that they do.

The bottom line is, you are correct. Hard working private sector citizens realize that the socialist agenda is a joke, and they vote accordingly.

What is it Churchill used to say?, "If you're not a liberal when you're 20, then you're heartless, but if you're not a conservative by the time you're 40, you're an idiot."

sooner or later, Camoor, jmcc, and the rest of these dudes will get real jobs. That's when they'll start caring about income redistribution and economic freedom.

Like I said - good having you back.

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']I think the majority of the "progressive" left falls into a category you left out. The guilty.

They feel guilty because of the accident of birth that made them a citizen of the richest nation in history. They feel guilty because they achieved some level of success financially and so many others haven't. Usually those kinds of people are famous actors/musicians/wiriters etc. They never really worked for their wealth, they never created a job directly, all of the wealth they create is for themselves or a coninuation of their record or movie studios wealth from not being able to milk past hits/groups/names.

The other type of progressive is the spoiled rich kid(s) that lament not only the accident of birth but are itching to rebel against "something". That something, in this case, is whatever party is in power.

The moral causes that liberalism tackled in the past; old people dying penniless, oppressed minorities, workers organizing rights etc have been solved and now need expanding on. We now need prescription drug benefits in addition to SSI and Medicare. We need talks of reparations. We need to unionize shops that have no desire to unionize; see Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes factories in this country.

Liberalism now isn't a moral crusade, it's a financial one. Everything they preach and wish to achieve comes at a financial price to someone other than them. Environmentalism takes away from property rights violating the basic tennant of a capitalist society. Organized labor; are places of employment that won't let you work unless you pay the union its thug like protection money truly free and open? Health care coverage; cha ching, lets nationalize 1/7th of GDP because 40 million out of 300 million don't have government approved "health care" forget that any one of those 40 million include 5-10 million 20 somethings that just don't think they need it, forget that that 40 million includes 10-15 million that switch jobs and as a result statistically become uninsured.

Liberalism now is socialism. There are few if any issues the left has that don't cost you, the government or someone else money and lots of it. It cost no money to give blacks the vote, what cause does the left tackle anymore that doesn't result in a huge expenditure by an enormous group of people that can "afford it".

Like I said, your movement is a joke and you're becoming irrelevent.

Funny how this thread has devolved into a "Bush sucks! They made their money from Nazis!" thread because the cogent points brought up by right thinking persons are irrefutable. Typical.[/quote]
 
I wish the conservative side would quit claiming to be the Christian side of the political spectrum. At no point was greed rescinded of it's deadly sin status and nowhere did Jesus say "screw your fellow man. You look out for number one and number one only."
 
I'm not going to give my bio here Continental. I have already made my reasons clear in another thread.

I am glad to discuss my political ethos though. I am not a socialist, and I actually thought that the rampant 80s liberalism in the US got way out of hand. I am a Democrat and a Capitalist who believes that some social programs, such as National Parks and the protection of the enviornment, should be continued.

I want the government to stop tipping the hand of capitalism to favor big business. I am tired of the DMCA, the tax incentives to buy SUVs, the inability of the US govt to get Micro$oft to play by the rules of capitalism (heck, even the socialists in Europe are beating the US in that effort), and all the other lobbyist-supported nonsense. Let capitalism work, and we will all prosper.

Many on this board act as if the rich get no upper hand in life. While a poor inner-city convenience store clerk works overtime to make ends meet, a rich executive at a pharmaceutical company gets a research grant to pay for the clinical tests of his drug and then gets Congress to protect his inflated drug prices from overseas competition. Fortunately, if that protection falls through he is still incorporated in Vanuatu, so no taxes need to be paid on those profits.

Many of the things that I see the Bush presidency endorsing smack of Fascism. For example, look at the undefined period of incarceration for people that the government claims are threats to the interests of the US. I'm not a fan of Fascism either.

Nor of Theocracy. Leave the US Constitution and federal/local statutes in the court of law, people should enjoy their Christian Bibles in the city park, the church, or the privacy of their own home.

I am currently to the left of center, but I have voted for moderate Republicans in the past and I will probably do so again in the future.

Continental, when did all socialists suddenly go from having intelligent, compassionate people as members to being "assholes, idiots, and shallow bastards"? (your words, not mine)
 
Way to make up a word.... what the fuck does liberality mean?

What are you progressing against? You don't even know. You're against an establishment. Do you want higher taxes? Confiscation of firearms? Gay marriage? Nationalization of health care? A world wide prosperity tax that dispenses first world wealth through the third world? Do you want a world government?

You can't even say, you don't know yourself.

No Democrat has won the Presidency with a majority popular vote in 28 years. There has not been 44 Democratic Senators since 1929 and that was with 4 fewer Senators in the upper house than there are now. The Democrats have had a net loss of governors and state legislatures since 1992. Your side is losing and losing badly.

Your senators are about to oppose the first Hispanic nominee for Attorney General by basically saying we need to go easier on Taliban, Al Qaeda and other terrorists subjects in our interrogation methods. They're siding with the enemy. You think this is progress? This is the side of history you want to be on?

You've been losing for a generation and the more out of power you are the further behind ever regaining it you get. You're desperate and have no hope for moving your agenda forward. When the Supreme Court is reshaped modern American liberalism as we know it will be a footnote in history like Marxist/Leninsm.

That's progress and I'm on the right side of it.
 
[quote name='camoor']... the inability of the US govt to get Micro$oft to play by the rules of capitalism (heck, even the socialists in Europe are beating the US in that effort), and all the other lobbyist-supported nonsense.[/quote]

European socialists don't want MS or anyone else to play by the rules of capitalilsm, that's the point. It's the socialist mentality in the US that thinks MS is breaking capitalist 'law'.

Let capitalism work, and we will all prosper.

Unless you become too sucessful, then you have to give up your earnings to those more needy. You are not a capitalist, you are a socialist pretending to be in favor of freedom (definition of Democrat, BTW)

Many on this board act as if the rich get no upper hand in life. While a poor inner-city convenience store clerk works overtime to make ends meet, a rich executive at a pharmaceutical company gets a research grant to pay for the clinical tests of his drug and then gets Congress to protect his inflated drug prices from overseas competition. Fortunately, if that protection falls through he is still incorporated in Vanuatu, so no taxes need to be paid on those profits.
See? Capitalism sucks, doesn't it ? If he's lucky, he'll make money on 1 drug in 50, and the government would have granted money for research for 1 in 100. That's a lot of risk. That poor convenience store clerk deserves the same salary as an executive in your version of equality, doesn't he ?

Continental, when did all socialists suddenly go from having intelligent, compassionate people as members to being "assholes, idiots, and shallow bastards"? (your words, not mine)

Continental may have different reasons but mine started when they began eliminating personal responsibility, re-defining equality as redistribution of wealth by force, and not understanding that in order for wealth to be distributed, it has to be produced by someone in the first place.
 
[quote name='bmulligan'][quote name='camoor']... the inability of the US govt to get Micro$oft to play by the rules of capitalism (heck, even the socialists in Europe are beating the US in that effort), and all the other lobbyist-supported nonsense.[/quote]

European socialists don't want MS or anyone else to play by the rules of capitalilsm, that's the point. It's the socialist mentality in the US that thinks MS is breaking capitalist 'law'.
[/quote]

You're going to defend the business practices of Microsoft, bmulligan? You like paying hundreds of dollars for an OS full of bugs? Microsoft has stolen code, price-fixed it's product, and lied all way to the top. Against Linux, they're mounting a campaign full of FUD and backing real "winners" like SCO. Europe has the balls to stand up to a company that has had a practical monopoly for a few decades, and I salute them for this.

[quote name='bmulligan']
Let capitalism work, and we will all prosper.
Unless you become too sucessful, then you have to give up your earnings to those more needy. You are not a capitalist, you are a socialist pretending to be in favor of freedom (definition of Democrat, BTW).
[/quote]

Your accusation is simply not true (all of it).

[quote name='bmulligan']
Many on this board act as if the rich get no upper hand in life. While a poor inner-city convenience store clerk works overtime to make ends meet, a rich executive at a pharmaceutical company gets a research grant to pay for the clinical tests of his drug and then gets Congress to protect his inflated drug prices from overseas competition. Fortunately, if that protection falls through he is still incorporated in Vanuatu, so no taxes need to be paid on those profits.
See? Capitalism sucks, doesn't it ? If he's lucky, he'll make money on 1 drug in 50, and the government would have granted money for research for 1 in 100. That's a lot of risk. That poor convenience store clerk deserves the same salary as an executive in your version of equality, doesn't he ?
[/quote]

Of course the poor convenience store clerk doesn't "deserve" the same salary as the rich drug executive. Drug companies never lose a profit though, so why is the government giving them hand-outs?

[quote name='bmulligan']
Continental, when did all socialists suddenly go from having intelligent, compassionate people as members to being "assholes, idiots, and shallow bastards"? (your words, not mine)

Continental may have different reasons but mine started when they began eliminating personal responsibility, re-defining equality as redistribution of wealth by force, and not understanding that in order for wealth to be distributed, it has to be produced by someone in the first place.[/quote]

I'm not going to defend socialism because I do not believe that it is a system of government that works, however I would never call all of it's proponents "assholes, idiots, and shallow bastards". As for conservatives, I believe this quote says it best:

"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives."
John Stuart Mill
English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)
 
You're going to defend the business practices of Microsoft, bmulligan? You like paying hundreds of dollars for an OS full of bugs?

If you don't like Windows, don't buy it. You DO have a choice. You can also use a typewriter to write papers, or use a calculator to balance the checkbook. I did it all through highschool and some college before that cool macintosh was invented. Microsoft pricefixed their product you say ? Good for them. Perhaps you should mount a campain against the videogame companies because they also decide what to charge for their own products.

Of course the poor convenience store clerk doesn't "deserve" the same salary as the rich drug executive.

Why not? I'd love to hear your explanation of why everyone shouldn't be compensated equally.

Drug companies never lose a profit though, so why is the government giving them hand-outs?

On some drugs, they do lose. And the government gives many handouts to many people and organizations. We should force them to stop, I agree. And since you enjoy JS MILL:

"The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good, in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it."
-John Stuart Mill
 
[quote name='bmulligan']
You're going to defend the business practices of Microsoft, bmulligan? You like paying hundreds of dollars for an OS full of bugs?

If you don't like Windows, don't buy it. You DO have a choice. You can also use a typewriter to write papers, or use a calculator to balance the checkbook. I did it all through highschool and some college before that cool macintosh was invented. Microsoft pricefixed their product you say ? Good for them. Perhaps you should mount a campain against the videogame companies because they also decide what to charge for their own products.
[/quote]

We live in the computer age, bmulls. For many years, Windows was the only choice for PCs. Now there is Linux, which Windows is trying to run into the ground by teaming with Sun and backdoor funding the BS SCO lawsuit. Windows is an anti-competitive force, and it has slowed innovation in the field of OS technology. It's a prime example of what happens when capitalism is broken by a monopoly.

[quote name='bmulligan']
Of course the poor convenience store clerk doesn't "deserve" the same salary as the rich drug executive.

Why not? I'd love to hear your explanation of why everyone shouldn't be compensated equally.
[/quote]

What are you talking about? Are you a communist?

[quote name='bmulligan']
Drug companies never lose a profit though, so why is the government giving them hand-outs?

On some drugs, they do lose. And the government gives many handouts to many people and organizations. We should force them to stop, I agree. And since you enjoy JS MILL:

"The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good, in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it."
-John Stuart Mill
[/quote]

In my opinion, the government gives out too much economic help, but I don't think it should be abolished completely. There are certain situations where fiscal government help is fair and just. Consider what happens when the husband of a poor naturalized citizen mother with 3 small kids is killed while fighting in Iraq. Should she have to suffer poverty because she was unlucky enough to be widowed by the war, she suddenly has to raise 3 kids on her own, and Walmart won't give her a full 40 hours a week? Don't we, as the people of the United States, owe her more then simple gratitude for the sacrifice that she and her husband made for this great country? I don't think the government should set her up in cozy digs for life, but surely some food stamps so that her children can remain fed is not out of order. Another acceptable option would be to have the government set her husband up with a generous life insurance policy before he goes to war.

However, I don't approve of the government creating tax loopholes for huge corporations that are going to use the extra money for the corporate slush fund and $5000 shower curtains.

Great quote by JS Mill btw, I totally agree.

However by your tone, I think you may be mis-interpreting his quote as an endorsement of laissez-faire capitalism.

To the public at large, Mill was better known as the author of Principles of Political Economy 1848, a work that tried to show that economics was not the "dismal science" that its radical and literary critics had supposed. Its philosophical interest lay in Mill's reflections on the difference between what economics measured and what human beings really valued: leading Mill to argue that we should sacrifice economic growth for the sake of the environment, and should limit population as much to give ourselves breathing space as in order to fend off the risk of starvation for the overburdened poor. Mill also allowed that conventional economic analysis could not show that socialism was unworkable, and suggested as his own ideal an economy of worker-owned cooperatives.
http://www.utilitarianism.com/jsmill.htm
 
I totally agree with you that casualties in the millitary should be treated better and their families compensated justly for their death. This is not a handout. And, frankly, there shouldn't be tax loopholes for anyone, corporate or private. A consumption tax would help eliminate inequiitites but leave the government vunerable to economic slowdown. That may be a good thing, though, to prod them into creating less restrictive trade conditions to keep the economy growing.

And Mill's quote IS an endorsement of capitalism. Capitalism doesn't necessarily mean corporationism. It starts with individual freedom to trade and associate with others, and ends with the responsibility of trading and associating with others.

And as far as living in the computer age, I learned to program on many an IBM cloned computer that didn't run an MS operating system. MS Windows is a recent invention which evolved and became dominant because of popularity and it's convenience. (actually, I worked with versions of the OS GUI that MS stole the idea from too). If you want MS to become less important you must stop using their products and lead by example. We have much more power as consumers than any government when deciding which companies should exist and which should not.

"It is questionable if all the mechanical inventions yet made have lightened the day's toil of any human being. "
-John Stuart Mill

And furthermore, I believe that 95% of what we use computers for is extraneous entertainment. Yezs, we live in a computer age, but we don't have to. Can you name anything you are currently doing with your computer that you need to do to survive or make a living ? I don't even care if your job is computer related, it's not really that necessary, you could quit and dig ditches for food if you had to. Cellphones aren't necessary, videogames aren't necessary, movies and records aren't required for sustenance. So statements like this don't carry much weight for me:

Windows is an anti-competitive force, and it has slowed innovation in the field of OS technology.

Anti-competitive ? The very nature of capitalism is to beat your competition; to gain as much as possible, to grow as much as possible. And how can you prove that it has slowed innovation ? You can't. If anything, it's allowed us to work more efficiently, more quickly in the business world, raising the standard of living for many. They have created the standard and you're free to write your own OS if you think you can do it better. If it is better, than people will buy it and you'll be the next billionaire the people will want to topple.

And as a side note, Sun Microsystems is one of the backers of the MS anti-trust suit. Linux variations have some gems in their camp (and some duds too) but the lack of any standard prevents any of them from being usefull an a mass scale where compatibility is key for business intercommunications and commerce. And please tell me you know that Linux was 'borrowed' from another OS too ?
 
This bio was all I wanted - thanks.

To answer your question - I don't think socialists have ever been "intelligent, compassionate people" - do you?

[quote name='camoor']I'm not going to give my bio here Continental. I have already made my reasons clear in another thread.

I am glad to discuss my political ethos though. I am not a socialist, and I actually thought that the rampant 80s liberalism in the US got way out of hand. I am a Democrat and a Capitalist who believes that some social programs, such as National Parks and the protection of the enviornment, should be continued.

I want the government to stop tipping the hand of capitalism to favor big business. I am tired of the DMCA, the tax incentives to buy SUVs, the inability of the US govt to get Micro$oft to play by the rules of capitalism (heck, even the socialists in Europe are beating the US in that effort), and all the other lobbyist-supported nonsense. Let capitalism work, and we will all prosper.

Many on this board act as if the rich get no upper hand in life. While a poor inner-city convenience store clerk works overtime to make ends meet, a rich executive at a pharmaceutical company gets a research grant to pay for the clinical tests of his drug and then gets Congress to protect his inflated drug prices from overseas competition. Fortunately, if that protection falls through he is still incorporated in Vanuatu, so no taxes need to be paid on those profits.

Many of the things that I see the Bush presidency endorsing smack of Fascism. For example, look at the undefined period of incarceration for people that the government claims are threats to the interests of the US. I'm not a fan of Fascism either.

Nor of Theocracy. Leave the US Constitution and federal/local statutes in the court of law, people should enjoy their Christian Bibles in the city park, the church, or the privacy of their own home.

I am currently to the left of center, but I have voted for moderate Republicans in the past and I will probably do so again in the future.

Continental, when did all socialists suddenly go from having intelligent, compassionate people as members to being "assholes, idiots, and shallow bastards"? (your words, not mine)[/quote]
 
Interesting. Gates did an interview just recently in which he dubs anyone who supports open copyright schemes communists.
 
Man, I have been pushing a consumption tax system (in the form of the Fair Tax Act) on these boards for a long ass time. It's nice to see other proponents here.

It sounds to me as though Camoor has forgotten about his most powerful voting tool - his hard earned dollar. I vote with the dollar everyday. If you don't like something and don't support it - don't spend your hard earned dollar on it.

I've loved Clint Eastwood movies since I was a little kid, but have yet to see "Mystic River" for this very reason.

Also I find it funny that Camoor claims to *support* capitalism. It sounds like he only supports it up until the point that the hard-working individual becomes successful - at which point his wealth must be redistributed to the not-so-hard-working.

You guys love to be generous with other peoples' money.

[quote name='bmulligan']I totally agree with you that casualties in the millitary should be treated better and their families compensated justly for their death. This is not a handout. And, frankly, there shouldn't be tax loopholes for anyone, corporate or private. A consumption tax would help eliminate inequiitites but leave the government vunerable to economic slowdown. That may be a good thing, though, to prod them into creating less restrictive trade conditions to keep the economy growing.

And Mill's quote IS an endorsement of capitalism. Capitalism doesn't necessarily mean corporationism. It starts with individual freedom to trade and associate with others, and ends with the responsibility of trading and associating with others.

And as far as living in the computer age, I learned to program on many an IBM cloned computer that didn't run an MS operating system. MS Windows is a recent invention which evolved and became dominant because of popularity and it's convenience. (actually, I worked with versions of the OS GUI that MS stole the idea from too). If you want MS to become less important you must stop using their products and lead by example. We have much more power as consumers than any government when deciding which companies should exist and which should not.

"It is questionable if all the mechanical inventions yet made have lightened the day's toil of any human being. "
-John Stuart Mill

And furthermore, I believe that 95% of what we use computers for is extraneous entertainment. Yezs, we live in a computer age, but we don't have to. Can you name anything you are currently doing with your computer that you need to do to survive or make a living ? I don't even care if your job is computer related, it's not really that necessary, you could quit and dig ditches for food if you had to. Cellphones aren't necessary, videogames aren't necessary, movies and records aren't required for sustenance. So statements like this don't carry much weight for me:

Windows is an anti-competitive force, and it has slowed innovation in the field of OS technology.

Anti-competitive ? The very nature of capitalism is to beat your competition; to gain as much as possible, to grow as much as possible. And how can you prove that it has slowed innovation ? You can't. If anything, it's allowed us to work more efficiently, more quickly in the business world, raising the standard of living for many. They have created the standard and you're free to write your own OS if you think you can do it better. If it is better, than people will buy it and you'll be the next billionaire the people will want to topple.

And as a side note, Sun Microsystems is one of the backers of the MS anti-trust suit. Linux variations have some gems in their camp (and some duds too) but the lack of any standard prevents any of them from being usefull an a mass scale where compatibility is key for business intercommunications and commerce. And please tell me you know that Linux was 'borrowed' from another OS too ?[/quote]
 
I've read a lot on the fair tax or consumption tax and am a believer in it to take up income taxes that aren't reported by under the table income earners, organized crime, drug dealers, prostititution etc. However I don't think the Dumbocrats could ever stomach giving up the "punish the rich" mantra they've used for 70 years so I don't think there's any hope of it ever being approved. It's also a regressive tax to those living on fixed income.

I haven't used Windows at home in going on 6 years. I haven't used Internet Explorer daily in 2. I get by just fine with OS X, Office v.X and Camino. My compatibility issues are about 1% and that's just with sites optimized for IE. I regularly produce documents in Mac Word, Mac Power Point or Mac Excel and have no compatibility issues. MS's Mac developers are great, I kind of miss IE but with Apple bundling their own browser I guess MS knew what kind of competition that meant for them and they dropped out of the Mac browser market.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']I guess MS knew what kind of competition that meant for them and they dropped out of the Mac browser market.[/quote]
Actually, it means Microsoft bought a huge chunk of Apple, so they don't really care if you use Apple's products or their own because they get a huge chunk of money from it either way. Also, Microsoft finds it useful to keep Apple around as a tool to fool stupid people anytime the anti-trust investigators come snooping around. "No, we're not a monopoly! Just look at Apple!" "Mr. Gates, don't you all but OWN Apple?" "Um..." But again, as I said, it fools the stupid people.
 
[quote name='jmcc']I wish the conservative side would quit claiming to be the Christian side of the political spectrum. At no point was greed rescinded of it's deadly sin status and nowhere did Jesus say "screw your fellow man. You look out for number one and number one only."[/quote]

Actually, there's nothing wrong with greed.
"Avarice" is the "deadly sin", and avarice is "Immoderate desire for wealth; cupidity." The key there is immoderate. Everyone wants wealth. If you don't, send me your money via Paypal. If you don't send me anything, then you are succumbing to 'desire for wealth', which in itself is not a bad thing.
Much like the line isn't 'money is the root of all evil.'
It's
"The love of money is the root of all evil."
""For the love of money (and all it buys) placed before the love of God (in reality) is the root of all kinds of evil."

Did you catch that? Let me reread it. A clear distinction must be made between THE LOVE of money and money itself. Let this truth sink deep into your spirit. God is not anti-money, or anti-wealth, He is anti-money WORSHIP. He has helped us to identify that moneylove (worship) is the root of all kinds of evil. In fact, as we have discussed before, God's plan is that we are healthy, wealthy, and wise in this world -- as a testimony of His greatness, power, and glory to come.

Wealth is NOT the only measuring stick of our blessing from God."

"The bottom line is that money, like technology, is spiritually neutral. It can be used for good or evil. God always deals with the heart and the motives of the use of money. If the motives are pure then the fruit can be very very good. Let's stop loving things and start loving people. '
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']I haven't used Windows at home in going on 6 years. I haven't used Internet Explorer daily in 2. I get by just fine with OS X, Office v.X and Camino. My compatibility issues are about 1% and that's just with sites optimized for IE. I regularly produce documents in Mac Word, Mac Power Point or Mac Excel and have no compatibility issues. MS's Mac developers are great, I kind of miss IE but with Apple bundling their own browser I guess MS knew what kind of competition that meant for them and they dropped out of the Mac browser market.[/quote]

PAD, I never would've pegged you for a Mac guy. Diff'rent strokes I guess... Well we have one thing in common.

I've never owned Windows, just Macs. The only other computer I have ever had was a C-64 back in the day. I never even used IE much, always like Navigator better but now Safari rules.
 
[quote name='Drocket'][quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']I guess MS knew what kind of competition that meant for them and they dropped out of the Mac browser market.[/quote]
Actually, it means Microsoft bought a huge chunk of Apple, so they don't really care if you use Apple's products or their own because they get a huge chunk of money from it either way. Also, Microsoft finds it useful to keep Apple around as a tool to fool stupid people anytime the anti-trust investigators come snooping around. "No, we're not a monopoly! Just look at Apple!" "Mr. Gates, don't you all but OWN Apple?" "Um..." But again, as I said, it fools the stupid people.[/quote]

Microsoft has sold all of its Apple stock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer

The company was struggling financially when on August 6, 1997 Microsoft bought a $150 million non-voting share of company as a result of a court settlement between themselves and Apple. (Microsoft has since sold all Apple stock holdings.)
 
[quote name='MrBadExample']Microsoft has sold all of its Apple stock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer[/quote]

Hmm, I may be out-of-date, then (of course, Wikipedia often isn't the most reliable of sources...) Of course, it just says MS sold its shares of Apple - they may have just sold them to Bill :p
 
[quote name='The_Continental']This bio was all I wanted - thanks.

To answer your question - I don't think socialists have ever been "intelligent, compassionate people" - do you?
[/quote]

I guess it depends on what you think of the following socialists:
Mohandas K. Gandhi
Albert Einstein
Jack London
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Nelson Mandela
Orson Welles

I think that each of these individuals contributed to the world in a unique and compelling way, making it a better place through their vision. Do I believe in socialism? No. Doesn't mean I'm going to disparage everyone who does not share my ethos.
 
[quote name='camoor']In my opinion, the government gives out too much economic help, but I don't think it should be abolished completely. There are certain situations where fiscal government help is fair and just. Consider what happens when the husband of a poor naturalized citizen mother with 3 small kids is killed while fighting in Iraq. Should she have to suffer poverty because she was unlucky enough to be widowed by the war, she suddenly has to raise 3 kids on her own, and Walmart won't give her a full 40 hours a week? Don't we, as the people of the United States, owe her more then simple gratitude for the sacrifice that she and her husband made for this great country? I don't think the government should set her up in cozy digs for life, but surely some food stamps so that her children can remain fed is not out of order. Another acceptable option would be to have the government set her husband up with a generous life insurance policy before he goes to war. [/quote]

[quote name='The_Continental']...Also I find it funny that Camoor claims to *support* capitalism. It sounds like he only supports it up until the point that the hard-working individual becomes successful - at which point his wealth must be redistributed to the not-so-hard-working.

You guys love to be generous with other peoples' money.
[/quote]

I do think that capitalism is the best economic system for the foreseeable future. However I am not an anarcho-capitalist who believes that govenment should play no role in the economy, especially when other issues (such as general public health and the defense of the country) are at stake. IMO it is naive and ultimately foolish to support a form of capitalism that does not possess a well-defined and strictly limited amount of government intervention.
 
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