Bush's Approval Rating ***2%*** Among Blacks

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Yeah, me echoing and agreeing with Bill Cosby makes me a racist.

Feelings here are more important than truth. None of you want to deal with the truth about why blacks aren't succeeding in greater numbers. You all want feel good platitudes and don't even want to address what the true issues are.[/quote]

I'll agree that there are problems. At the root of the problem, in my view, is that blacks, like most Americans, subscribe to the idea of acheivement orientation (you are, as a person, defined as successful or unsuccesful based upon what you do or what you own, rather than some abstract notion of "who you are"). So, they have kept the desire for material acquisition, but find legitimate opportunities blocked at far greater levels than other groups. I can agree that more blacks commit crimes (as a proportion of their overall group) than whites; that blacks are less well educated than whites; that blacks have more children out of wedlock than whites. I cannot deny these truths. However, it would be a unconscionable falsehood to claim race is responsible, when these patterns (save the denied job opportunities) manifesting themselves in the white underclass too.

Saw sucked.
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I'm on a gore kick; I will agree that Cary Elwes is a dreadful dramatic actor. Don't tell me that you weren't surprised by the ending, though.

I'm nothing but a whitebread silver spoon prat...

Mykey, you're not even good white bread. You're not that good French or Italian loaf bread you can smell blocks away at 7 in the morning. You're that over processed, over starched, over bleached 99 cent white bread that comes in cheap plastic bags used for making dozens of PB&J's at a local day care or bunched up in balls, wetted and thrown to stick to the ceiling of a school cafeteria. You're the kind of white bread no one craves or wants yet has to put up with because that's all that's being served.
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Okay...

You probably sit around debating the merits of supporting academic freedoms for the likes of Ward Churchill who lied and plagarised his way into his position but when it comes to conservative thought you turn on your blinding PC headlights and sirens trying to glare out and deafen the message or speaker. You deal with issues from one frame of mind and one frame of mind only.
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You have no idea how I operate. I love to be challenged and criticized; anything less than that is "intellectual fellatio," as I call it. I don't need someone agreeing with me or telling me how brilliant I am; if I didn't think it was brilliant or valid, I wouldn't say it. I enjoy being told that I'm wrong, or that I'm full of shit, or that I'm failing to consider x, y, or z. Almost all of my students (those that opt to answer open questions on evaluation) have praised my willingness to listen to all points of view. Shit, I've even worried myself from time to time that I've overcompensated in trying to be a fair teacher that I end up making more conservative arguments than I do fair arguments. I don't expect you to believe that, but this is my attempt to convince you (as opposed to my earlier "why bother?").

EDIT: Also, unlike you, I've read Ward Churchill. While I can accept some of his arguments (the piece of his I read made the claim that people who support Native American iconography in sports are guilty of "crimes against humanity" - his words, not mine). While I agree with his sentiment ideologically, his argument is about as skillfully written and full of hyperbole as anything Ann Coulter could write. I do not consider him to be an academic; academics cite previous research, identify key areas where research can be improved, develop, test, and retest hypotheses (as we all learned in 7th grade). As I've not encountered anything Churchill has done that in any way resembles something other than a polemic, I find it irksome that you'd suggest I'd defend him. I probably did in the past; at that point, however, I'd not read anything of his. He's bad, admittedly.

While you are an extremely articulate and smart individual you see the world from one point of view while refusing to acknowledge any opposition to your held position holds any merit whatsoever. That makes you dangerous. While I can be egotistical, opinionated and pig headed you have seen the words "I was wrong." eminate from my posts and more than once.
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Didn't I just concede to your argument in the mortgage deduction thread from the other day? I honestly can't recall that you've ever admitted to being wrong regarding anything I've had to say, but I'm not keeping tabs on that.

In this argument you have done nothing but label and attempt to demean without acknowleding any truth of what I say. That's very PC mykey. They'll be so proud of you when you tell them this tale at the coffee shop tonight as you and your mates smoke your clove cigarettes. You showed the world how sensitive and understanding you were while completely ignoring obvious facts.
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My first ad hominem was in my fifth post on this thread, and I gave up cloves in roughly 1996. It's a nice suggestion, though (and I can still taste the molasses filters on those sampoerna x-tras ;)).
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Ya, but everytime I see pictures from jamaica they never really look like they're dressed like rappers. Most of the people were from africa, I just remember a few being from the caribbean. There was also one jamaican girl who was white, but had a strong jamaican accent. You always looked twice whenever she spoke.[/QUOTE]

Any time I see pictures of Jamaica, it's typically in the countryside. Were we to see more pictures from the concrete jungle (Kingston), we'd get a better idea of what urban Jamaican youth look like.
 
I'll agree that there are problems. At the root of the problem, in my view, is that blacks, like most Americans, subscribe to the idea of acheivement orientation (you are, as a person, defined as successful or unsuccesful based upon what you do or what you own, rather than some abstract notion of "who you are"). So, they have kept the desire for material acquisition, but find legitimate opportunities blocked at far greater levels than other groups. I can agree that more blacks commit crimes (as a proportion of their overall group) than whites; that blacks are less well educated than whites; that blacks have more children out of wedlock than whites. I cannot deny these truths. However, it would be a unconscionable falsehood to claim race is responsible, when these patterns (save the denied job opportunities) manifesting themselves in the white underclass too.
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Are there statistics on crime, social mobility etc. rates for blacks whose ancestry dates back to slavery vs. blacks who only recently came here from africa? Around here I know african born blacks, especially those with accents, seem to get more respect. I also found that, in canada, they seemed to have the similar success and failure rates as other immigrants (though that's just my own perception), and african born blacks seemed to have higher representation in professional jobs compared to their overal % of the black population there.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Are there statistics on crime, social mobility etc. rates for blacks whose ancestry dates back to slavery vs. blacks who only recently came here from africa? Around here I know african born blacks, especially those with accents, seem to get more respect. I also found that, in canada, they seemed to have the similar success and failure rates as other immigrants (though that's just my own perception), and african born blacks seemed to have higher representation in professional jobs compared to their overal % of the black population there.[/QUOTE]

African born blacks may not have as many opportunities to leave their countries unless they are affluent, or accepted to an American school.

I suppose I can ask my French TA (she's Senegalise).
 
[quote name='capitalist_mao']African born blacks may not have as many opportunities to leave their countries unless they are affluent, or accepted to an American school.

I suppose I can ask my French TA (she's Senegalise).[/QUOTE]

That may be true. If you claim you're a refugee it's very easy to get into canada, and I knew 2 people who had fled sudan a few years ago. Though many do arrive very poor, and many arrive planning to make money, but end up poor since their degree is not recognized and they have to start from scratch or simply forget about a professional career (there were jokes about how if you wanted a doctor you should go to the falafel hut, which was a middle eastern fast food chain). But immigrants arriving in canada are, as a whole, poor, and the worst jobs are filled with immigrants. It's just that many don't remain their for their lives (though many do), and their children are more likely to show upward social movement than in america statistically.

Honestly, I have minimal exposure to minorities in this country, outside of friends who are mostly minorities. I've never attended an american school with lots of minorities, or worked in a similar environment.
 
Don't misunderstand me mykey, I'm not saying you'd defend him academically on the basis that he's right or from a research or opinion standpoint. I don't thik you're anywhere near that far gone. I'm just saying from an academic freedom standpoint you would defend his abilities to speak yet deny the same kind of freedoms or opinions be expressed by a truly conservative speaker. You know, like along the lines of all those "free speech" advocates that love to pie people they disagree with?

Mykey, in all fairness, you didn't concede. You didn't do any research, which you yourself recommend I and others do regularly when you're defending positions. You were dragged to the truth kicking and screaming without doing any research or investigation on your own. Then you were faced with the inevitable truth that 1/3 or the overall population and 1/2 in many states would be affected by my claim. At that point, it was irrefutable.

I don't mean this as a slam but have a genuine curiosity. How is it you can get through undergrad and to wherever you are in grad school without knowing how 1/3rd of the people in this country even pay for their homes? Okay, so your major has nothing to do with finance but this is basic life stuff you can catch on the news, read in the newspaper. How did you, again well read, educated etc., not come across this yet?

BTW, you want unadulterated gore? Try Dead Alive or Blood Sucking Freaks.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']How did you, again well read, educated etc., not come across this yet?[/QUOTE]

Because he hasn't financed a house?
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Don't misunderstand me mykey, I'm not saying you'd defend him academically on the basis that he's right or from a research or opinion standpoint. I don't thik you're anywhere near that far gone. I'm just saying from an academic freedom standpoint you would defend his abilities to speak yet deny the same kind of freedoms or opinions be expressed by a truly conservative speaker. You know, like along the lines of all those "free speech" advocates that love to pie people they disagree with?[/quote]

Not at all; in fact, I read a rather good piece by a professor a few weeks back discussing how tenure-granting institutions are reluctant to hire those who have personal blogs that deal with grousing about their personal lives/work lives/otherwise air their dirty laundry. I can understand that. I don't consider Churchill to be a scholar, and I don't think he needs an institution to protect him free speech; would I admit to that, then the idea of "Professor Coulter" wouldn't be so absurd, relatively speaking. OTOH, I am bothered by situations such as the stepping down of the head of the government's Bureau of Justice Statistics. He was basically silenced because his research group found that racial profiling is not only still prevalent, but worse than most people thought. This current administration did not want that to get out, so they canceled all the typical means of promoting/gaining awareness for new research results. It's not that his free speech was infringed upon, but that his work and his results were silenced because the administration was afraid of the results. To deny a person scientific and political validity when they can PROVE their claims pisses me off to no end. Churchill? Not so much.

Mykey, in all fairness, you didn't concede. You didn't do any research, which you yourself recommend I and others do regularly when you're defending positions. You were dragged to the truth kicking and screaming without doing any research or investigation on your own. Then you were faced with the inevitable truth that 1/3 or the overall population and 1/2 in many states would be affected by my claim. At that point, it was irrefutable.
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I still think that's not true; if you merely consider data you posted yourself, would you like to tell me that some of these people at, or barely above, the median income of $29,919 (I may be off) are getting mortgages and improvement loans for over a combined $350,000? I'm considering the minimum possible income given your argument, and the minimum possible mortgage, and it still looks absurd. As for not doing research, if you'd like, I could mention Doug Massey, John Baugh, William Julius Wilson, Elijah Anderson, Elliot Liebow, John Yinger, and whoever the fuck wrote "Racism Without Racists." Can I summarize their arguments in one post? Not in the slightest. Can I summarize Devah Pager's research, which found that white men with felony convictions were more likely to get callbacks on job inquiries than black men with NO criminal record? Yes, I can. "Kicking and screaming?" Please. As I said earlier, I can't recall you ever admitting you were wrong to a point I made (and god knows it has happened at least once, to make a conservative estimate). If you want to fiction-it-up by saying I was dragged kicking and screaming, then pray tell what sort of "tail-tucked-between-the-legs" story could I develop for the dozens of topics that you are shown to be completely and totally incorrect in, only to simply stop posting in them? What about the topics, such as this one, where you do nothing but try to change the subject?

I don't mean this as a slam but have a genuine curiosity. How is it you can get through undergrad and to wherever you are in grad school without knowing how 1/3rd of the people in this country even pay for their homes? Okay, so your major has nothing to do with finance but this is basic life stuff you can catch on the news, read in the newspaper. How did you, again well read, educated etc., not come across this yet?
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Common knowledge for relative to one's profession, isn't it? I don't know much about the stock market, either.

BTW, you want unadulterated gore? Try Dead Alive or Blood Sucking Freaks.
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Yeah, I hadn't been into horror movies for awhile, and I feel that I need to get back into them. Shit, I'm so out of it I don't think I've watched a single Troma film since 1999.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']That may be true. If you claim you're a refugee it's very easy to get into canada, and I knew 2 people who had fled sudan a few years ago. Though many do arrive very poor, and many arrive planning to make money, but end up poor since their degree is not recognized and they have to start from scratch or simply forget about a professional career (there were jokes about how if you wanted a doctor you should go to the falafel hut, which was a middle eastern fast food chain). But immigrants arriving in canada are, as a whole, poor, and the worst jobs are filled with immigrants. It's just that many don't remain their for their lives (though many do), and their children are more likely to show upward social movement than in america statistically.[/QUOTE]

In terms of immigrants, the 3 cities I lived near during my senior year of high school gave was full of Indian, Polish, east Asian and Russian immigrants. Plenty of muslims in the mix as well. Most of the kids were 1st generation, with a large portion being 2nd generation.

The general idea I got about the immigrant families is that a large portion of them will work menial jobs, for ok wages, enough to live off of (which, can be quite subjective. I live off of $12k a year and do quite fine). Very few expect to move up, but they send all their kid to go to school (with varying results). The odd thing about my school (for being in Chicagoland, at least) was that there were very south American, black, latin or Mexican kids at my school. It was entirely asian and european.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Honestly, I have minimal exposure to minorities in this country, outside of friends who are mostly minorities. I've never attended an american school with lots of minorities, or worked in a similar environment.[/QUOTE]

I've not had much exposure to African blacks, but it seems that quite a few of them are not at all in tune with the "thug life" that many American blacks embrace. I heard a speech from one while in high school that followed that theme. I don't remember most of the speech, however, as I fell asleep most of the way through it.
 
[quote name='capitalist_mao']In terms of immigrants, the 3 cities I lived near during my senior year of high school gave was full of Indian, Polish, east Asian and Russian immigrants. Plenty of muslims in the mix as well. Most of the kids were 1st generation, with a large portion being 2nd generation.

The general idea I got about the immigrant families is that a large portion of them will work menial jobs, for ok wages, enough to live off of (which, can be quite subjective. I live off of $12k a year and do quite fine). Very few expect to move up, but they send all their kid to go to school (with varying results). The odd thing about my school (for being in Chicagoland, at least) was that there were very south American, black, latin or Mexican kids at my school. It was entirely asian and european.
[/quote]

See, if you had 12k a year around here, you'd have you rent. You'd be looking at 800-1000 for the cheaper apartments + utilities. I'm not sure about chicago, but the cheaper apartment in toronto were about 5 or 600 canadian (which at the time was 75% of the u.s. dollar and almost all of them included water, electricity, heat etc.). I would think chicago would be closer to that than eastern MA prices.

In toronto though, Asians were essentially treated as hispanics are here, except they were more succesful (though, again, canada's immigrants fare better than america's immigrants statistically, even among the same groups). They were the ones that were everywhere, mcdonalds had advertised in chinese, they had news in cantonese and mandarin on major channels, they had chinese language channels etc. Some of the white population seemed to harbor hostility towards them because chinese culture was very prominant there, similar to the argument against hispanic culture being in the u.s..


I've not had much exposure to African blacks, but it seems that quite a few of them are not at all in tune with the "thug life" that many American blacks embrace. I heard a speech from one while in high school that followed that theme. I don't remember most of the speech, however, as I fell asleep most of the way through it.
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My pre canadian level of exposure to blacks? Zero. There was a guy at funcoland who used to know me when I was a little kid, that's it. Never had a black neighbor (there was a black guy who came onto my street once, my mother said she couldn't believe that everyone who saw him was just staring at him like he was about to rob someone), my jr high & high school had 5 black kids at its max (900 kids at the time), and 2 of them were twins. Never had a black kid in my grade in my whole u.s. school history. My only other dealings with blacks were just random people I'd see on the street, in stores etc.

Though I do have 2 indian friends who used to use the term "nigga" like they were black (they were dark skinned, but indian). I haven't heard them do that in a while though. I always wanted to smack them when they did.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']See, if you had 12k a year around here, you'd have you rent. You'd be looking at 800-1000 for the cheaper apartments + utilities. I'm not sure about chicago, but the cheaper apartment in toronto were about 5 or 600 canadian (which at the time was 75% of the u.s. dollar and almost all of them included water, electricity, heat etc.). I would think chicago would be closer to that than eastern MA prices.[/QUOTE]

Well, I am cheating a little bit. I don't live in chicagoland now, but my mom does and I used to live there for a year of school (before that, it was st louis and columbus). I go to UIUC, so I'm down in a yokel-ville. However, since my school is where all the chicagoland kids, I get a decent exposure of chicago-land youth (but, that's nothing to brag about, as Chicago kids are terrible).

Down here, however, I pay $630 for a cheap apartment, about $100-$150 on food per month, $100 on electricity and cable and the rest goes to whatever I need/want.
 
Its funny that PAD who actually voted for Bush is trying to slam someone saying they would hypothetically support a liar.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Politically why shouldn't blacks be written off by Republicans? Now I'm asking a rhetorical here. I know there are tons of outreach efforts, that many blacks are disillusioned with Democrats but see Republicans as an unviable alternative.

However when you've given 90% of your "group" (Which I don't subscribe to any one ethnic group being monolithic.) vote to the same group for 40 years with no improvement in your poverty rates, your illegitimacy rates have soared, drugs have decimated once proud and vibrant communites while under the stewardship of numerous Democratic mayors and governors you have to wonder why blacks continue to vote the way they do. They buy the same lies year after year and decade after decade from their unelected public leadership (Jackson, Sharpton, Farrakhan) and their pandering representatives in Congress that spout the same lines of poverty pimping and race baiting that not even the Klan matches in vitriol.

Oh well, I got way OT. Want to know what "real" blacks think of Colin Powell, Condeleeza Rice and Clarence Thomas? They're referred to as house $$$$$$s, Uncle Toms and sell outs.

That's what a black becoming a success in mainstream America makes you to "real" blacks.[/QUOTE]



WHAT THE fuck ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

Do you live or ever lived in a black community?

I am black,26 years old and have family all around this country and in the past 20 years crime,drug abuse,etc.. are at ALL-TIME LOWS and that's nationwide!!!!

I remember when i was in jr high in the early 90's gangbanging was outta control here in Tacoma/Seattle. A friend of mine got shot & killed in the Lakewood Mall food court,that's how bad it was.
Now you NEVER hear of someone being shot in the "hood".
 
I'm so happy to hear about this and an eyewitness report has denied absolutely everything I've ever said, thought or claimed. I truly am. Nothing would please me more than to be 100% wrong on this issue.

Now, would you tell the NAACP, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Shelia Jackson Lee, Kweisi Mfume, Louis Farrakhan, the Urban League, Major Owens, Charlie Rangel, Maxine Waters, John Conyers et al to STFU because things have never, ever, ever been better for blacks in America and they're perpetuating a lie and hoax on the American people.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']I'm so happy to hear about this and an eyewitness report has denied absolutely everything I've ever said, thought or claimed. I truly am. Nothing would please me more than to be 100% wrong on this issue.

Now, would you tell the NAACP, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Shelia Jackson Lee, Kweisi Mfume, Louis Farrakhan, the Urban League, Major Owens, Charlie Rangel, Maxine Waters, John Conyers et al to STFU because things have never, ever, ever been better for blacks in America and they're perpetuating a lie and hoax on the American people.[/QUOTE]


It's not me who's saying that, it's the USA GOVERNMENT!!! They put out numbers every year bragging & boasting about drops in crime,drug use, etc... so that people like yourself who don't live in these areas can see what type of progress is being made. I don't need those numbers because i see it with my own eyes.

Also, why do you want those people you listed to STFU?
Is it that hard to change the channel/station when they're on?
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Now, would you tell the NAACP, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Shelia Jackson Lee, Kweisi Mfume, Louis Farrakhan, the Urban League, Major Owens, Charlie Rangel, Maxine Waters, John Conyers et al to STFU because things have never, ever, ever been better for blacks in America and they're perpetuating a lie and hoax on the American people.[/QUOTE]

Two things:

Improving conditions does not necessitate complacency; according to this sort of logic (the "STFU" approach, I shall call it), pro-life organizations should cease to exist once a ban on late-term abortions is passed.

Second, a reduction in the crime rate is not necessarily related to the improving conditions for blacks as a whole in regards to the job or housing market, for instance. It is simply a reduction in crime and should not be considered, in the absence of data, to be indicative of anything save the possibility a reduction in the overall crime rate (which has been the case since the early to mid-1990's).
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']I'm so happy to hear about this and an eyewitness report has denied absolutely everything I've ever said, thought or claimed. I truly am. Nothing would please me more than to be 100% wrong on this issue.

Now, would you tell the NAACP, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Shelia Jackson Lee, Kweisi Mfume, Louis Farrakhan, the Urban League, Major Owens, Charlie Rangel, Maxine Waters, John Conyers et al to STFU because things have never, ever, ever been better for blacks in America and they're perpetuating a lie and hoax on the American people.[/QUOTE]

you're Fred from the Howard Stern show, aren't you?
 
The biggest problem with this discussion is that there is a need to label black's as a group. The biggest problem I see in America in terms of these kind of things is that we are not just American no no. We are Italian-American, Irish-American, African-American, American Japanese and so forth. When people ask me what I am I tell them, I am American. This country is founded on that idea, once you come here you are American. It doesn't matter where you came from before that. You want a solution for all the crime and problems in America? Blacks and anyone else for that matter should worry first about getting as much education as they can. I know some people won't be able to afford the best education but do the best you can. Then those people that end up having more than they ever need should give it back to the community. Not a specific community but to people that need it and will use it. I don't mind paying taxes but it sucks when you do and you see people who go to college, make money for going to college and still fail out of all their classes. Why did we give them the money in the first place? I know this rant was very disjointed but my main point is that if any of you ever do well enough where you have a little extra, donate to someone who really wants to improve their lot in life, because it would be great if we could help everybody but they have to want to help themselves first, so donate it to the person regardless of any reason aside from their desire to succeed.
 
[quote name='burningelf']I know this rant was very disjointed[/QUOTE]

You can say that again.

Your call to arms for random acts of philanthropy is well-noted, although you're clearly lacking understanding of patterns of treatment towards minorities in America if you really think that a "colorblind" (i.e., we are all simply "Americans") approach is even remotely possible.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']You can say that again.

Your call to arms for random acts of philanthropy is well-noted, although you're clearly lacking understanding of patterns of treatment towards minorities in America if you really think that a "colorblind" (i.e., we are all simply "Americans") approach is even remotely possible.[/QUOTE]
On the immigration point, we do integrate 1000 times better than most other countries... Look at the recent violence in France. England recently had some race riots. With countries like that, if you're not of French or British descent, you are forever an outsider. You can move to France, speak French, and become a French citizen, but you, nor your children, will never, ever be French. America is a very unique place, there is no "American" race. Anyone can be an American.

Also, I don't know if anyones read Bill Cosby's comments from a while back, but they're worth thinking about.
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/billcosbypoundcakespeech.htm
 
Good points, but historically, blacks have been oppressed by the state for all but the last 40 years of our history; as a result, they developed a very salient and separate culture within the United States. In addition, although the civil rights act was passed in 1964, enforcement legislation (such as the Fair Housing Act of 1967) was more or less "neutered" (for the record, and PAD will delight in this no doubt, Robert Byrd was one of the primary movers behind the declawing of the FHA). So, in effect, the civil rights acts was one big "ok, you're free, here you go" and that was it.

So, taking a state-enforced disadvantaged population who had historically been prevented from receiving education, and thus did not have access (race issues notwithstanding) to decent jobs, and it created, as a result of the social structure, what conservatives call the "culture of poverty." In short, I don't think blacks are very separate at all, and they, like Americans, embrace materialism and an acheivement orientation. Being denied access to legitimate means of making it, however, reinforces existing barriers towards equality.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']On the immigration point, we do integrate 1000 times better than most other countries... Look at the recent violence in France. England recently had some race riots. With countries like that, if you're not of French or British descent, you are forever an outsider. You can move to France, speak French, and become a French citizen, but you, nor your children, will never, ever be French. America is a very unique place, there is no "American" race. Anyone can be an American.

Also, I don't know if anyones read Bill Cosby's comments from a while back, but they're worth thinking about.
http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/billcosbypoundcakespeech.htm[/QUOTE]

Not better then us!

Silly melting pot...
 
Were there no representatives of the White House at Rosa Parks' funeral yesterday? I couldn't find any listed in the news coverage. That seems like a poor move considering his approval ratings. You'd think someone as crassly political as Rove would have recognized the opportunity to get Bush (or at least Condi) out there.
 
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