Cable/Sat TV- Verizon Fios vs Cox vs AT&T Dish Network vs Direct TV

M

monash65

CAGiversary!
Thinking about ditching Time Warner Cable because the new bill I just got is kind of ridiculous. I get broadband internet and cable TV right now in Southern California. So what are the pros and cons of the different competitors? Can anyone here recommend one service over the others, and if so why? Any stand out on price competitiveness? Quality? Customer service?

And I've been experimenting with setting up a quote through the various websites... is there any company that doesn't charge a regular fee to hire an HD receiver or HD DVR box? The monthly prices on those things are crazy.
 
I just had a long struggle with Comcast. Normally what I do is call and threaten to cancel when they jump the price after a promotion. They would always put me back into the previous promotion price of $105 for the triple play with HD service. This lasted for 5 years until I got my bill last week. Normally the price would go up to $150, this time it was $175... and for the most part they were willing to call my bluff.

Long story short I get them down to $136 for everything except the phone service. On top of that they gave me free Showtime, Cinamax, HBO and Starz for 6 months. Unfortunatley they input it as "digital package" so when I got home there was no HD. fuck that!

I Called Dish Network and set up an account and planned to keep my internet with Comcast since the speeds are better. After checking the price difference plus one time processing fees, I would only be saving $21 over 6 months because I would loose the package discount for internet. On top of that I have to waste a Sunday afternoon waiting for an installer. I call Comcast back and bitch about the HD and they "have a special" to give it to me for free.

So I'm back with Comcast.... until this August when I have to do this all over again. I love the service, very reliable. It's just difficult to justify the price. I wish we had a second option for cable in my area.
 
I only really use internet services from these providers, but in my experience Uverse has constant drops / cut off / down time and doesn't reach the speed it claims.

With Comcast my net was down once in a blue moon late at night and my speeds were always solid.

They have improved their tech / wiring / stop being dicks and now if you live in an apt you don't share a connection with your neighbor. At least in my old hood.
 
[quote name='monash65']Thinking about ditching Time Warner Cable because the new bill I just got is kind of ridiculous. I get broadband internet and cable TV right now in Southern California. So what are the pros and cons of the different competitors? Can anyone here recommend one service over the others, and if so why? Any stand out on price competitiveness? Quality? Customer service?

And I've been experimenting with setting up a quote through the various websites... is there any company that doesn't charge a regular fee to hire an HD receiver or HD DVR box? The monthly prices on those things are crazy.[/QUOTE]

TWC SoCal really jacked up their prices for 2012. I was shocked to see the sharp price increase for 2012 over what was normally just a buck or two in prior years.

I don't have FIOS available in my area, but I do have the option of AT&T U-Verse. Sadly, I compared prices and what the prices would be after all promotions ended, and it was exactly the same cost as TWC. Figuring my cable internet to be better than DSL, I stayed put at TWC. I just don't have it in me to play the games every 6 months to a year and threaten to cancel.

I also don't have the option for COX cable, but I assume their pricing will also be exactly the same as TWC when you break it down.

I'm not interested in trying any satellite dish services.

I've considered just dropping cable TV all together and going with OTA + Amazon Prime + Netflix + maybe HuluPlus and getting some kind of box with native support for those services that also does computer media streaming. But so far I'm staying lazy and complacent with TWC.
 
[quote name='Invicta 61']I just had a long struggle with Comcast. Normally what I do is call and threaten to cancel when they jump the price after a promotion. They would always put me back into the previous promotion price of $105 for the triple play with HD service. This lasted for 5 years until I got my bill last week. Normally the price would go up to $150, this time it was $175... and for the most part they were willing to call my bluff.
[/QUOTE]

I've read those threads at CAG before about people calling their cable company and negotiating their bills down by ridiculous amounts by announcing they're planning on cancelling or whatever. The ones who have been successful always make it sound so simple! I've tried it twice with TWC in the last week, got absolutely NOTHING out of it. All I got was some advice that I could save some money each month by returning one of the receiver boxes if I didn't use it much. What kind of P'd me off was that internet deal they're doing right now for $29.99 per month, but apparently it's only for NEW customers, not existing ones like me. Why the hell don't they try and make existing customers happy with some sweet deals?

And when I made talk about cancelling, they basically were going to go ahead and let me cancel, so at the last minute I had to back down and say I would think about it some more. I might very well jump ship to another provider, but until I do, I still need my internet and TV!



[quote name='kodave']TWC SoCal really jacked up their prices for 2012. I was shocked to see the sharp price increase for 2012 over what was normally just a buck or two in prior years.

I don't have FIOS available in my area, but I do have the option of AT&T U-Verse. Sadly, I compared prices and what the prices would be after all promotions ended, and it was exactly the same cost as TWC. Figuring my cable internet to be better than DSL, I stayed put at TWC. I just don't have it in me to play the games every 6 months to a year and threaten to cancel.

I also don't have the option for COX cable, but I assume their pricing will also be exactly the same as TWC when you break it down.
[/QUOTE]

That's the thing, I was looking at the ads and mail circulars for some of these rival TV providers, and although some of them have attractive looking offers (e.g. I think it's Direct TV that offer some TV packages at $29.99 for the first yr with a contract), if you read the fine print and put stuff into the website cart just to find out the price, I found out that a lot of these places would be about the same price as my current TWC after a year or two. Maybe even more, I'm not sure since I don't know what other fees or taxes would appear on the bill once I commit to a particular service. It's hard to tell which one I should go with. I mean, isn't competition supposed to drive prices down? Is there one provider that's known to be much more price competitive than the others, or are they all about the same after the initial promotion period?


So anyone know who has better customer service and more reliable service out of the satellite TV providers? Here in So Cal we sometimes get torrential rain, so I'm concerned that the signal might go out while I'm in the middle of Justified or something...
 
[quote name='monash65']I mean, isn't competition supposed to drive prices down?[/QUOTE]

No. Its all a giant price fixing scheme between the cable companies. For the most part you'll be hard pressed to find a geographical area that's serviced by two different cable providers. The companies divvy up and exchange regions so they have no competition from each other.

The only real game now is cable companies trying to get your land line business, and phone companies trying to get your cable TV business. I don't know how successful FIOS and U-Verse have been, but apparently the cable-land-line business isn't so hot. So if you get cable/internet/phone from the cable company and you call and threaten to get rid of the phone service, they may play ball and lower your rates. That's the only area of success for renegotiation that I've seen work other than some dumb luck where someone I know just simply called in and asked to pay less and they let her without any threats or games.

But that aside, I still don't understand why something like U-Verse isn't more aggressively priced if AT&T wants to lure me away from TWC. My guess is they figure customers are stupid and would jump on the cheap 6 month or 1 year promo rate, then be happy paying the same amount when all is said and done.

Again, I'm not interested in getting a dish for multiple reasons, but I see commercials from DISH Network all the time saying they're way cheaper than DIRECTV. So you might want to look into that. Some of my neighbors have satellite and I've often seen them monkeying around with the dish during bad weather. Some of them also have to put them on really awkward parts of the house to get a clear shot into the correct area of the sky.
 
[quote name='kodave']No. Its all a giant price fixing scheme between the cable companies. For the most part you'll be hard pressed to find a geographical area that's serviced by two different cable providers. The companies divvy up and exchange regions so they have no competition from each other.[/QUOTE]

Interesting, thanks for the info. I actually didn't bother to check if all the competitor services were available in my area, looks like Verizon Fios for sure isn't.


[quote name='kodave']The only real game now is cable companies trying to get your land line business, and phone companies trying to get your cable TV business. I don't know how successful FIOS and U-Verse have been, but apparently the cable-land-line business isn't so hot. So if you get cable/internet/phone from the cable company and you call and threaten to get rid of the phone service, they may play ball and lower your rates. That's the only area of success for renegotiation that I've seen work other than some dumb luck where someone I know just simply called in and asked to pay less and they let her without any threats or games.[/QUOTE]

Last time I tried to get my bill reduced (today, which was my third call to them this year about it), they tried to offer me phone service to bundle in with my current internet/cable TV service, like that would somehow solve my problem of reducing the amount I have to pay them each month. I explained that I used Magicjack for phone landline which costs me $20 per year, and said that unless they can beat that I'm not really interested in a bundle with phone. :)

Still didn't get anywhere with reducing my bill though. I know that if I switch to a competitor, there's the whole thing that after the first year the promotion disappears and you're paying pretty much the same as before with TW, but right now I'm so sick of them I might just go for that year's worth of saving. I dunno.

Here's another thing that occurred to me- how do satellite providers offer internet services? I've seen it in the flyers, I guess because they want to compete fully with the cable companies, but I have no idea how that would work.
 
I am on DirecTV.

Pros: Best Picture offered (IMO by miles... and yes I have tried Dish TV). Biggest HD lineup of all providers. Sports Packs (some exclusive). Customer service is pretty good compared to the people I have dealt with at Comcast or TWC in the past.

Cons: Price. You will get a good deal coming in. When your year 1 promo ends, it will ramp up. Though, customer service will occasionally (every month or so) offer you some deal i.e. free HD, cheap/free premium channels, credit towards bill for so many months, etc.
 
[quote name='monash65']I've read those threads at CAG before about people calling their cable company and negotiating their bills down by ridiculous amounts by announcing they're planning on cancelling or whatever. The ones who have been successful always make it sound so simple! I've tried it twice with TWC in the last week, got absolutely NOTHING out of it.[/QUOTE]

I was one of them, and it USED to be that easy. I could call them and say I was canceling because the price went up too high. "Oh, sorry to hear that. Let me see what we can do for you". They would quote me what was essentially the same price and I would be off the phone in about 5-10 minutes. Absolutely no hassles.

Now when I call to cancel instead of dealing with the person I first reached, I am transferred to a "customer care specialist". This is someone that has been trained to deal with difficult customers. One thing to note; whatever you say on the phone with them will be summarized on your account. They know exactly what was discussed every time you call them. I got in on a brief special that I saw on CAG where you were able to get a free premium channel for 1 year. The "customer care specialist" mentioned this deal to me, saying that "someone told me about it online" without me even mentioning it.

I see articles every once in awhile on MSN talking about haggling with different services to lower costs. With so many people struggling I'm sure the haggling is rampant. Looks like the services are pushing back.
 
[quote name='lordopus99']
When your year 1 promo ends, it will ramp up. Though, customer service will occasionally (every month or so) offer you some deal i.e. free HD, cheap/free premium channels, credit towards bill for so many months, etc.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, that's good to know.


[quote name='Invicta 61']I was one of them, and it USED to be that easy. I could call them and say I was canceling because the price went up too high. "Oh, sorry to hear that. Let me see what we can do for you". They would quote me what was essentially the same price and I would be off the phone in about 5-10 minutes. Absolutely no hassles.

Now when I call to cancel instead of dealing with the person I first reached, I am transferred to a "customer care specialist". This is someone that has been trained to deal with difficult customers. One thing to note; whatever you say on the phone with them will be summarized on your account. They know exactly what was discussed every time you call them. I got in on a brief special that I saw on CAG where you were able to get a free premium channel for 1 year. The "customer care specialist" mentioned this deal to me, saying that "someone told me about it online" without me even mentioning it.

I see articles every once in awhile on MSN talking about haggling with different services to lower costs. With so many people struggling I'm sure the haggling is rampant. Looks like the services are pushing back.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. Looks like they're getting tougher with the customers who try and get a discount. I definitely got the sense that I wasn't going to get anywhere by saying I was going to cancel. I'm pretty sure they would have let me cancel.

Re what you said about the summarizations on your acct when you call, I remember every time I contacted them they did a little recap of what we discussed at the end of the call. I guess maybe they're reading back their little notes. The next time I call will probably be to cancel service for real, so they can put that in their notes for all I care.
 
Anyone have internet service with a satellite TV provider like Direct TV? How does that work, and how do you like it?
 
I have DirecTV. Internet in my building is provided and paid for by our condo fees, so I didn't have to worry about that.

Otherwise, that is an issue as cable internet is damn pricey if you don't also have cable TV, which is why I'd stuck with Comcast in the past despite hating them.

I'm very happy with DirecTV. It's not the cheapest in the world, and they're not as good about giving you crazy deals if you call and threaten to cancel like Comcast would.

But I'm at a point where I'm less of a cheap ass and don't mind paying more for quality product and service. The picture on DTV is a lot better than what I got from Comcast here, the customer service is much better, and it (and the internet my building provides) is much more reliable than what I got from Comcast. In the two years here the internet has only been down once, and for less than a day. And the TV has never went out other than the couple minutes you lose service in a really severe storm periodically.
 
So when you lost TV in a storm or whatever, the satellite automatically readjusts itself when the weather clears? You don't have to call out a technician every time the dish gets disturbed?
 
[quote name='monash65']So when you lost TV in a storm or whatever, the satellite automatically readjusts itself when the weather clears? You don't have to call out a technician every time the dish gets disturbed?[/QUOTE]
It fixes just fine when storm dies down some.

I found in my experience I can't remember a time I have ever lost the Standard signal. The HD signal is the only one I have seen go out and (like Dmaul said) it requires a crazy storm to do that i.e. heavy downpour with extremely strong winds to shake the dish. Standard rainstorms/thunderstorms have never knocked out my signal.
 
I have Cox here. The TV is good, but where they really shine is the internet. Cox has NO bandwidth caps period for one thing.

The only other cable provider is Charter. But I've never heard good things about either their TV or internet. VZ FiOS isn't all that saturated here. Parts of each city in the Hampton Roads area have it. The rest are stuck with either above cable companies or satellite
 
[quote name='monash65']Anyone have internet service with a satellite TV provider like Direct TV? How does that work, and how do you like it?[/QUOTE]

Satellite internet sucks big time and no one should ever have it unless their only other option to get online at all is dialup.
 
[quote name='monash65']So when you lost TV in a storm or whatever, the satellite automatically readjusts itself when the weather clears? You don't have to call out a technician every time the dish gets disturbed?[/QUOTE]

I've never had the dish get disturbed. You just lose signal for a few minutes in a bad storm due to the super thick clouds sometimes. HD does go sooner han SD as noted above.

That's both when I had it a few years back and just had the regular dish on a cinder block on my patio and now that I live in a high rise with a community dish on the roof. Mine at both places went/goes more than what the other guy made it sound like though. I'll lose signal for a couple minutes in most thunderstorms. But we get severe storms wih downpours and heavy clouds pretty often here. Where I was before, snow storms were more of an issue.
 
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Thanks for the replies, guys. Maybe this thread can become the CAG cable TV catchall.

[quote name='kodave']For the most part you'll be hard pressed to find a geographical area that's serviced by two different cable providers. The companies divvy up and exchange regions so they have no competition from each other.[/QUOTE]

Holy shit, you weren't kidding. I didn't do my homework, turns out those "options" I thought I had before were not options after all. Looks like TW has quite the monopoly here- apparently I can't get Fios, or Cox, or U-Verse where I am. My only other option for internet is AT&T regular high speed (non U-Verse), and my other options for TV are satellite i.e. Direct TV or Dish Network.

Think I'm going to maybe keep my internet with TW, and go with Direct TV for TV, after the recommendations here. For the first year it'll work out about $25 cheaper than keeping both TV and internet with TW, then for the second year it'll work out about $10 cheaper, and then by the third year the price will ramp up but I'll look at my options again. Plus I get free premium channels for a couple of months with Direct TV, and I save $10/month for life with auto bill pay on the credit card. Not too bad.

Question for anyone who knows- if I call TW and tell them to drop my TV service completely, but keep my internet with them, will they jack up the price on the internet as sort of a penalization? Their new a la carte price for RoadRunner is supposed to be $52.99/month but if they try and charge me more than that, then I'll have to think about switching to AT&T high speed. Don't really want to mess with my internet setup, but I will if I have to.
 
[quote name='monash65']

Question for anyone who knows- if I call TW and tell them to drop my TV service completely, but keep my internet with them, will they jack up the price on the internet as sort of a penalization?[/QUOTE]

Comcast was going to increase my internet price because they said I was "losing my bundle discount". That was the killer with me switching to Dish Network for my TV. The price difference wasn't enough for me to want to deal with two providers.

My guess is TW will do the same.
 
[quote name='monash65']Thanks for the replies, guys. Maybe this thread can become the CAG cable TV catchall.



Holy shit, you weren't kidding. I didn't do my homework, turns out those "options" I thought I had before were not options after all. Looks like TW has quite the monopoly here- apparently I can't get Fios, or Cox, or U-Verse where I am. My only other option for internet is AT&T regular high speed (non U-Verse), and my other options for TV are satellite i.e. Direct TV or Dish Network.

Think I'm going to maybe keep my internet with TW, and go with Direct TV for TV, after the recommendations here. For the first year it'll work out about $25 cheaper than keeping both TV and internet with TW, then for the second year it'll work out about $10 cheaper, and then by the third year the price will ramp up but I'll look at my options again. Plus I get free premium channels for a couple of months with Direct TV, and I save $10/month for life with auto bill pay on the credit card. Not too bad.

Question for anyone who knows- if I call TW and tell them to drop my TV service completely, but keep my internet with them, will they jack up the price on the internet as sort of a penalization? Their new a la carte price for RoadRunner is supposed to be $52.99/month but if they try and charge me more than that, then I'll have to think about switching to AT&T high speed. Don't really want to mess with my internet setup, but I will if I have to.[/QUOTE]

They're going to charge you whatever the non-promo rate is for just internet. You can probably find out what that is on the website. But I don't know that TWC actually discounts services for having more than one after the promos end, so maybe your rate won't change from what it is now in terms of the internet portion.

For what its worth, you might want to contact AT&T or Verizon and ask them if they're working on upgrading their infrastructure to bring U-Verse or FIOS to your neighborhood. I didn't have the option of U-Verse two years ago, but a year ago they finally finished their infrastructure upgrades and actually came to my front door to let me know and to ask me to switch. I was tempted to switch to U-Verse because my TWC is shitty with the cable going out a few times now and screwing up my DVR, plus my internet is always going out. There is damage to the wires in the ground (I know this because a technician told me after I complained) but they won't spend the money to fix it because the rest of the neighborhood hasn't complained. But anyway I didn't go with U-Verse because it was the same exact price give or take a buck or two after the promo period was up.

I actually wouldn't be surprised to find AT&T and Verizon have an agreement to divide up geographical regions too, like cable companies. Does anyone have the option of both FIOS and U-Verse?
 
[quote name='kodave']
For what its worth, you might want to contact AT&T or Verizon and ask them if they're working on upgrading their infrastructure to bring U-Verse or FIOS to your neighborhood. I didn't have the option of U-Verse two years ago, but a year ago they finally finished their infrastructure upgrades and actually came to my front door to let me know and to ask me to switch. I was tempted to switch to U-Verse because my TWC is shitty with the cable going out a few times now and screwing up my DVR, plus my internet is always going out. There is damage to the wires in the ground (I know this because a technician told me after I complained) but they won't spend the money to fix it because the rest of the neighborhood hasn't complained. But anyway I didn't go with U-Verse because it was the same exact price give or take a buck or two after the promo period was up.[/QUOTE]

Good idea about asking if the rivals are bringing their service to my building in future. It'll help with my planning, I don't want to commit to a 2 yr contract with Direct TV if I'll have another option available in a few months.

If you've got the opportunity to get a nice promo price period and after that it's going to work out about the same price, why don't you switch over from TWC to U-Verse? At least then hopefully your cable/internet won't keep going out, since they'll probably have a nice new working network and they'll be trying to get customers so they'll make sure it's reliable. And from what I've read (don't use DVR right now) TW's DVRs are not rated as high as some of the other guys, so you might end up with a superior DVR too.

[quote name='kodave']I actually wouldn't be surprised to find AT&T and Verizon have an agreement to divide up geographical regions too, like cable companies. Does anyone have the option of both FIOS and U-Verse?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, does anyone have two or more of these big cable equivalent companies (Fios, TW, U-Verse, Cox) competing in their area?
 
[quote name='monash65']If you've got the opportunity to get a nice promo price period and after that it's going to work out about the same price, why don't you switch over from TWC to U-Verse? At least then hopefully your cable/internet won't keep going out, since they'll probably have a nice new working network and they'll be trying to get customers so they'll make sure it's reliable. And from what I've read (don't use DVR right now) TW's DVRs are not rated as high as some of the other guys, so you might end up with a superior DVR too.[/quote]

I didn't switch because DSL is terrible, in my opinion. I've never had good connection speeds with it even though it was theoretically supposed to be as fast as cable. When my cable works, it works great. Good connection speeds and whatnot. But because the ground wiring is shit at my complex, sometimes cable will go out for like 5 minutes at a time then come back. It'll do this several times an hour for a few days at a time, and then it'll work perfectly for a month straight.

That was a huge problem for me when I was doing some work-from-home stuff and needed to be actively doing work over the web. I contacted them about it and they told me to start keeping a log of when my connection drops and for how long and whatnot. I could do that if I'm sitting around doing work during the day from home, but if I'm not home during the day I can't contribute to the log and downtimes are going unreported. But because of the inconsistencies with the timing of the drops and service, and the fact that other neighbors weren't just sitting around surfing the web during the day, thus them not reporting the downtime too, TWC won't fix it.

I told them they know the ground wiring is screwed according to a technician who came out to my apartment area. I've gone through multiple modems from them and that's not the problem, and I even had the cable line from the ground into my unit upgraded when I moved in because the old line was damaged. I told them to fix it at the source in the ground and not ask me to do their work for them by keeping a log. But again, I'm the only one who reported it so they won't do anything about it.

U-Verse advertises multiple room DVR thats all interconnected but I don't know what they charge for that. I assume its extra. TWC wants me to pay extra to have a stupid additional box so I can get a cable signal on a TV other than on my main one. I refuse to do it out of principle. And its not like its an additional DVR box or anything, its just some little shit box that decodes the TWC transmission, which I know they don't HAVE to use because my mom's place gets cable TV directly from the wall without this decoding box. Granted its not fancy with a digital channel guide or whatever, but I'm not looking for that for additional rooms. Considering I have one TV in the living room and one TV in the bedroom, I can do without getting cable in the bedroom. Watching DVDs in there has worked just fine.

But yes, TWC's DVRs suck ass. Mine just died the other week on a Friday evening. Of course the closest office was closed on Saturday, so I had to wait until Monday to get it replaced. (First world problems - no TV for 3ish days!) I didn't have anything saved on the DVR at the time, but it took me a while to remember all the different series I was recording and all the channels I programmed to work from the "Favorite Channel" button on the remote. At least I have all that written down now for future DVR failures. But the DVR also has extreme lag in terms of carrying out basic functions and stuff like that. Comcast's DVR situation is only marginally better from my experience with them.


[quote name='monash65']Yeah, does anyone have two or more of these big cable equivalent companies (Fios, TW, U-Verse, Cox) competing in their area?[/QUOTE]

You've got to separate it out by cable company and by phone company. Like I said, I have the option of both TWC (cable) and U-Verse (phone).

And I'd wager AT&T and Verizon have some sort of agreement not to compete with each other so they can focus on competing with cable and dish companies. Other than some small parts of Orange County TWC controls nearly all of LA/OC/SD, maybe even the Valley too. They bought out Adelphia's foothold from what I remember. They also make exclusive deals with each city to be the only traditional cable carrier, but that has some practical implications. I know up in the SF Bay Area, Comcast owns the region.
 
I just spent some time reading about how the different companies have a foothold in different areas. Looks like what it comes down to is a govt decision that it's best to not let multiple cable companies to have a network in the same area so as not to have wasteful "duplication of infrastructure". Kind of ridiculous if you ask me. I know cable TV and broadband internet are first world luxuries, but still, monopolies suck.


[quote name='kodave']
U-Verse advertises multiple room DVR thats all interconnected but I don't know what they charge for that. I assume its extra. TWC wants me to pay extra to have a stupid additional box so I can get a cable signal on a TV other than on my main one. I refuse to do it out of principle. And its not like its an additional DVR box or anything, its just some little shit box that decodes the TWC transmission, which I know they don't HAVE to use because my mom's place gets cable TV directly from the wall without this decoding box. Granted its not fancy with a digital channel guide or whatever, but I'm not looking for that for additional rooms. Considering I have one TV in the living room and one TV in the bedroom, I can do without getting cable in the bedroom. Watching DVDs in there has worked just fine.[/QUOTE]

I just sent back my extra bedroom digital receiver to TW to save some money on my bill every month (kept the main HD receiver in the living area), and it turns out I can still get the main channels like NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX etc plus a few other random channels in the bedroom by plugging the cable directly into the TV. It's not full basic cable (I miss CNN in that room in the morning, and Comedy Central when I'm drifting off to sleep), but it's something at least and saves me from having to get some kind of over-the-air solution for that room. I have no idea if I will still get that if I cancel my TV service entirely with TW though, guess I'll find out if I make that switch to Direct TV. Think I'll make an appointment tomorrow.
 
[quote name='monash65']I just spent some time reading about how the different companies have a foothold in different areas. Looks like what it comes down to is a govt decision that it's best to not let multiple cable companies to have a network in the same area so as not to have wasteful "duplication of infrastructure". Kind of ridiculous if you ask me. I know cable TV and broadband internet are first world luxuries, but still, monopolies suck.

I just sent back my extra bedroom digital receiver to TW to save some money on my bill every month (kept the main HD receiver in the living area), and it turns out I can still get the main channels like NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX etc plus a few other random channels in the bedroom by plugging the cable directly into the TV. It's not full basic cable (I miss CNN in that room in the morning, and Comedy Central when I'm drifting off to sleep), but it's something at least and saves me from having to get some kind of over-the-air solution for that room. I have no idea if I will still get that if I cancel my TV service entirely with TW though, guess I'll find out if I make that switch to Direct TV. Think I'll make an appointment tomorrow.[/QUOTE]

I don't get any channels if I plug directly into the TV, which is annoying.

As for the monopolies, it makes a certain degree of practical sense. When a company is awarded a franchise for cable TV in an area, they get to dig up all the roads, lay their cable, etc. Most of the time they then have to pay to repair the roads and whatnot. But it still causes construction blockage, traffic delays, etc.

Say you enfranchise two cable companies, then they both have to lay their cables across the town and whatnot, and I'd imagine they'd be jockeying for the best positions in the ground to lay their wires, and they'd probably have to be separate from the other cable company so they can't interfere with each other. Combine that with the fact you've got sewers and water and gas and electrical lines down there, and you probably don't want to crowd it with two cable companies trying to lay their fiber optic lines.

But its also no different than all of your other utilities. I'd think it'd be extremely rare for you to have an option for who you purchase your electricity, gas, and water from. Unless a city establishes it own electrical plant, I think Southern California Edison runs all the electricity from LA through SD if not wider. Water is on a district by district basis because its drawn from different sources. I'm not sure how natural gas works and if SoCalGas has a monopoly on SoCal or not.

But all of these cable franchises are established on a city by city, county by county basis. You could theoretically have different cable providers in one geographical area like you do with water districts, but it would be more expensive for them to set up the infrastructure for that I'd imagine. So over the years the cable companies have bought and sold and swapped and traded their footholds to each other. Then Time Warner Cable can just lay their cable and infrastructure over an area of hundreds of miles without having to worry about other companies cable infrastructure. Sure, you have SoCal, TWC, and we'll take NorCal, says Comcast. They win, municipal governments are happy, and we pay monopoly prices.

It seems like down here in SoCal, COX is the last competition for TWC, but again, its only in comparison to neighboring cities. Most people don't have the option for COX or TWC, but someone might have TWC and across the city line on the other side of the street, there's COX. I'm sure TWC's goal is to buy out the COX franchises in SoCal, eventually.
 
Interesting stuff, thanks for the information.

The Direct TV guy is coming over tomorrow. I guess they have a "Cinema Connection Kit" which he will use to set me up to their On Demand service through my internet. Does anyone know if they can do this wirelessly? (instead of through a wired cable). I would prefer that but on the other hand I'm not crazy about telling him or anyone my wireless network password.
 
[quote name='monash65']Interesting stuff, thanks for the information.

The Direct TV guy is coming over tomorrow. I guess they have a "Cinema Connection Kit" which he will use to set me up to their On Demand service through my internet. Does anyone know if they can do this wirelessly? (instead of through a wired cable). I would prefer that but on the other hand I'm not crazy about telling him or anyone my wireless network password.[/QUOTE]

Change the PW before he comes then change it again after he leaves?
 
Yeah, the only problem is that I forgot my admin pw. It's ok though, the guy came and set up everything just fine, with a wired connection for the On Demand. I was quite impressed with the Direct TV HD signal, I'm not 100% sure, but I think it looks better than TW.

Oh, and speaking of TW, right after my new TV service was installed with Direct TV, I called TW to cancel my cable TV. The guy tried SO hard to get me to not cancel. Somebody mentioned earlier in the thread about how when you're cancelling service they put you through to a special person who deals with these kinds of customers (not regular customer service reps), and you could definitely tell that was the case here. Took me a while just to get across the simple fact that I just wanted to cancel my Tv service with them. I was actually told that I should have called to see if I could get a better deal with them than with Direct TV, so I explained that I DID call before switching to see if I could get a better deal, several times in fact. Such a PITA to make these kinds of calls, it should be a simple two minute thing. Anyway, returned my TW cable box same day and so now all I have with them is internet. Oh, and apparently they're going to charge me $39.99 for a guy to come out tomorrow and make sure I'm not getting a TV signal from them anymore, only internet. Does that sound normal?
 
[quote name='monash65']Oh, and apparently they're going to charge me $39.99 for a guy to come out tomorrow and make sure I'm not getting a TV signal from them anymore, only internet. Does that sound normal?[/QUOTE]

No, it doesn't sound normal. But then again I've never cancelled just one portion of a package with a company. All I can say is read all the fine print on anything you might have signed and whatever terms of service they can update on you from time to time.

I'd honestly tell TWC to go fuck themselves if they don't revoke the $40 charge or you'll cancel your internet too and switch to DSL. I bet they'd do that for ya. Did you even try to argue that $40 charge on the phone?
 
[quote name='monash65']Yeah, the only problem is that I forgot my admin pw. It's ok though, the guy came and set up everything just fine, with a wired connection for the On Demand. I was quite impressed with the Direct TV HD signal, I'm not 100% sure, but I think it looks better than TW.
[/QUOTE]

I guarantee you that your satellite HD signal is less compressed than it is on landline cable.

When satellite needs more bandwidth, they launch more satellites. When land-based cable needs more bandwidth, they have to replace their entire infrastructure, or more commonly, compress the hell of the signals and/or simply not offer certain channels in HD or at all.
 
I've had uverse for a few months now and the tv service and internet speeds have been great. My 12Mbps Comcast internet never did better than 550kbps on various speed tests but my uverse is locked between 5-6Mbps.

AT&T's uverse customer service (not the install techs) is horrific though. I've never had complaints about their wireless customer service despite their reputation, but calling uverse caused bad words and anger to come pouring out of my mouth. The reps never knew how to do anything, could not get my bill correct, never opened service tickets to research. I finally got lucky and got someone in TN who was competent and fixed everything in 10 minutes.
 
[quote name='monash65']Interesting stuff, thanks for the information.

The Direct TV guy is coming over tomorrow. I guess they have a "Cinema Connection Kit" which he will use to set me up to their On Demand service through my internet. Does anyone know if they can do this wirelessly? (instead of through a wired cable). I would prefer that but on the other hand I'm not crazy about telling him or anyone my wireless network password.[/QUOTE]

They should be able to easily set it up wirelessly w/o your password. I have Dish Network and they brought a small box that plugs into my router and then wirelessly transmits to my TV box. So as long as your router has a plug in and you have an open electrical outlet they should easily be able to do that.
 
[quote name='kodave']
I'd honestly tell TWC to go fuck themselves if they don't revoke the $40 charge or you'll cancel your internet too and switch to DSL. I bet they'd do that for ya. Did you even try to argue that $40 charge on the phone?[/QUOTE]

I didn't try to argue the $39.99 charge (pathetic, I know). Like I said before I had already tried the "see if I can save money by announcing I'm going to cancel" approach before several times and it got me nowhere, so I'm kind of done with playing those games. Frankly at this point I'll pay them that money just so I don't have to deal with them. If anyone wants me, I'll be turning in my CAG card (I dunno, maybe I'll try calling them about it later, I just don't have the energy to do it right now. That better be the only thing they charge me for cancelling TV though)

LOVING this new Direct TV DVR though. Can't believe I hadn't jumped on this before. Keep reminding myself not to get too used to all the free premium channels though. It's a three month thing, after that I'll need to find a hobby or something with all the sudden free time I'll have.
 
[quote name='monash65']I didn't try to argue the $39.99 charge (pathetic, I know). Like I said before I had already tried the "see if I can save money by announcing I'm going to cancel" approach before several times and it got me nowhere, so I'm kind of done with playing those games.[/QUOTE]

The difference is, you cancelled one thing, for real. You think TWC wants to gamble at pissing you off enough again to go for 2 services cancelled, over $40? I think they'd waive the fee for you if they're so concerned that you're still getting cable TV. This is different than "I want the promo price again....."
 
Here's my $0.02

This is something I've dealt with in the past myself. I've only been with Comcast, Verizon FIOS and Directv.

1. Comcast is the worst. Customer service is terrible, price is ok , and instillation is fine. This would be a last resort company. They have cable internet and the price is fine, and they are the biggest TV company in my area (Philadelphia suburbs). I would not recommend.

2. Verizon FIOS is good. If you can get it, its very good. The FIOS internet is second to none. The price for the internet is great for the speed you get and the bundled price with that and HD-DVR TV is really good. You won't get any internet close to the speed FIOS will give you. They are very competitive in price. The only problem is that the charge a ridiculous price for each set top box. So if you are a heavy HD and DVR user like myself they want something like $14.99 for each HD-DVR. You can get a multi-room HD-DVR for $17.99 if I recall correctly, but i like having each set top box separate. If I wasn't such a huge NFL fan I would absolutely have FIOS, but be warned their customer service is absolutely awful. Good luck getting anyone that can help you. So make sure when you get your service set up, its exactly the way you want it. Also, FIOS is the smallest "cable" company and they strive to do better. My mom has it and its great.

3. Directv is great. The price, unlike some people said, is great. The picture is great, the channel lineup is great, and unlike any other service I've delt with, the customer service is great. The trick is when you call, you say "cancel service" 2x when prompted and you get transferred to the customer retention dept and they are great.

I have to have Directv because of the NFL Sunday Ticket, but there are other reasons I stick with them. They only charge $4.99 for every set top box. Unlike FIOS you can have 4 HD-DVRs and they're only $4.99 each box. Thats a huge savings. Most other pricing is the same.

I am lucky enough to have a great deal with FIOS internet, but thats a big problem with Directv, they don't have an internet service. That's why I'd say get FIOS. If you were just looking for TV service, Directv is absolutely the best. Price, customer service, channel lineup, picture quality. They are #1.

I've been through what your going through a bunch of times throughout the past 10 years. If you have any specific questions you can PM me. Good luck!
 
[quote name='monash65']Interesting stuff, thanks for the information.

The Direct TV guy is coming over tomorrow. I guess they have a "Cinema Connection Kit" which he will use to set me up to their On Demand service through my internet. Does anyone know if they can do this wirelessly? (instead of through a wired cable). I would prefer that but on the other hand I'm not crazy about telling him or anyone my wireless network password.[/QUOTE]

Wireless you need a wireless ethernet adapter. They should hook you up during installation, you know for a tip. Good choice, I didnt read your post till after I went on and on. What are you doing for internet?
 
[quote name='kodave']The difference is, you cancelled one thing, for real. You think TWC wants to gamble at pissing you off enough again to go for 2 services cancelled, over $40? I think they'd waive the fee for you if they're so concerned that you're still getting cable TV. This is different than "I want the promo price again....."[/QUOTE]

That may be true but they also probably realize that I don't have that many options with internet (and that's why I decided to stay with TW), compared to TV where I can just put a dish up from one of their competitors. You do have me wanting to try and call them again to see if I can get that charge waived though. I'll post here if it works. Thanks for all the advice by the way.
 
[quote name='ScottBigGame']Here's my $0.02

This is something I've dealt with in the past myself. I've only been with Comcast, Verizon FIOS and Directv.

1. Comcast is the worst. Customer service is terrible, price is ok , and instillation is fine. This would be a last resort company. They have cable internet and the price is fine, and they are the biggest TV company in my area (Philadelphia suburbs). I would not recommend.

2. Verizon FIOS is good. If you can get it, its very good. The FIOS internet is second to none. The price for the internet is great for the speed you get and the bundled price with that and HD-DVR TV is really good. You won't get any internet close to the speed FIOS will give you. They are very competitive in price. The only problem is that the charge a ridiculous price for each set top box. So if you are a heavy HD and DVR user like myself they want something like $14.99 for each HD-DVR. You can get a multi-room HD-DVR for $17.99 if I recall correctly, but i like having each set top box separate. If I wasn't such a huge NFL fan I would absolutely have FIOS, but be warned their customer service is absolutely awful. Good luck getting anyone that can help you. So make sure when you get your service set up, its exactly the way you want it. Also, FIOS is the smallest "cable" company and they strive to do better. My mom has it and its great.

3. Directv is great. The price, unlike some people said, is great. The picture is great, the channel lineup is great, and unlike any other service I've delt with, the customer service is great. The trick is when you call, you say "cancel service" 2x when prompted and you get transferred to the customer retention dept and they are great.

I have to have Directv because of the NFL Sunday Ticket, but there are other reasons I stick with them. They only charge $4.99 for every set top box. Unlike FIOS you can have 4 HD-DVRs and they're only $4.99 each box. Thats a huge savings. Most other pricing is the same.

I am lucky enough to have a great deal with FIOS internet, but thats a big problem with Directv, they don't have an internet service. That's why I'd say get FIOS. If you were just looking for TV service, Directv is absolutely the best. Price, customer service, channel lineup, picture quality. They are #1.

I've been through what your going through a bunch of times throughout the past 10 years. If you have any specific questions you can PM me. Good luck![/QUOTE]



Great post, thanks. I've already committed to Direct TV, but it's good to hear another person tell me how great they are (especially customer service, that's kind of a dealbreaker for me after dealing with TW), makes me feel better about the switch I made. And yeah, they have a great selection of channels (more than I had before for a basically similar package) plus great quality.

For internet, I decided to keep Time Warner Cable for now. I'm still looking at my options though. You make Verizon Fios sound great, but sadly I looked into it and I don't get them in my area. If I could though, I would switch in a heartbeat, just so I don't have to deal with TW again.

You pay $4.99 per box? I guess things are different in California with Direct TV, I looked at my account and it looks like I'm paying $6 per box (1 HD DVR and 1 regular basic receiver box), but they automatically waive the fee for the first box. You might want to call and ask if you're entitled to that saving too? Don't know how long they keep waiving that fee for, but I hope it's for life, because I like it. I'm also getting a $10 discount for the HD fee with the Choice Xtra package (fee is $10, so the discount pays completely for HD access) every month because I use autopay, which is cool too. I think that's supposed to be for life.

Am I right in saying Comcast is the same company as TW, just named differently for a different region? When I returned my receiver boxes to TW the other day, they both had "Comcast" labels.
 
[quote name='monash65']
Am I right in saying Comcast is the same company as TW, just named differently for a different region? When I returned my receiver boxes to TW the other day, they both had "Comcast" labels.[/QUOTE]

No, they're definitely two separate companies. Probably Comcast did or does use the same cable box as TWC (was yours the Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300HD?). Its likely that TWC either bought old stock of the DVR from Comcast, or continued using the same DVR as Comcast when they took over a former Comcast region.
 
[quote name='monash65']Great post, thanks. I've already committed to Direct TV, but it's good to hear another person tell me how great they are (especially customer service, that's kind of a dealbreaker for me after dealing with TW), makes me feel better about the switch I made. And yeah, they have a great selection of channels (more than I had before for a basically similar package) plus great quality.

For internet, I decided to keep Time Warner Cable for now. I'm still looking at my options though. You make Verizon Fios sound great, but sadly I looked into it and I don't get them in my area. If I could though, I would switch in a heartbeat, just so I don't have to deal with TW again.

You pay $4.99 per box? I guess things are different in California with Direct TV, I looked at my account and it looks like I'm paying $6 per box (1 HD DVR and 1 regular basic receiver box), but they automatically waive the fee for the first box. You might want to call and ask if you're entitled to that saving too? Don't know how long they keep waiving that fee for, but I hope it's for life, because I like it. I'm also getting a $10 discount for the HD fee with the Choice Xtra package (fee is $10, so the discount pays completely for HD access) every month because I use autopay, which is cool too. I think that's supposed to be for life.

Am I right in saying Comcast is the same company as TW, just named differently for a different region? When I returned my receiver boxes to TW the other day, they both had "Comcast" labels.[/QUOTE]

Good choice with Directv. The only reason FIOS would be a better choice is for the internet bundle, sucks its not in your area. I was lucky to get someone from Verizon to hook me up with this great deal that was meant for business's in Philadelphia. I pay $45.99 for 25 up/25 down. It costs $74.99 regularly. It's great! I got hooked up, very lucky!

Yes the first box is free, always has been, I forgot to mention, and $5.99 sounds right for each extra box, I've been with Directv for 12 years and its probably gone up and I didn't pay much attention to a few dollars. I have 3 HD-DVRs in my house, I didn't get them all at one time but I was never charged a dime for any of them.

As far as deals go, a while back Dish Network was giving HD service away for life, so I called Directv and they gave me HD service free for life too. Plus I've been getting a $5 discount every month. It used to be $10, but since I get HD free, its now $5. They're normally really good about matching deals, but you have to get to the right dept. Thats why I mentioned "cancel service" when you call in.

AT&T and Comcast are different but they both are the "standard" cable companies depending on what area your in. They probably share tech.

Whats also cool is Directv recently changed their guide and menu system and it looks great. Modern and flashy. I love it. They really do a great job. I know you'll be happy. Good luck.
 
[quote name='kodave']No, they're definitely two separate companies. Probably Comcast did or does use the same cable box as TWC (was yours the Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300HD?). Its likely that TWC either bought old stock of the DVR from Comcast, or continued using the same DVR as Comcast when they took over a former Comcast region.[/QUOTE]

I don't remember exactly what the model types were of my TW receiver boxes, I know one of them had the Motorola logo on it though. I only noticed the Comcast label because it stood out and I thought it was weird that they would have me using another company's boxes.
 
[quote name='ScottBigGame']Good choice with Directv. The only reason FIOS would be a better choice is for the internet bundle, sucks its not in your area. I was lucky to get someone from Verizon to hook me up with this great deal that was meant for business's in Philadelphia. I pay $45.99 for 25 up/25 down. It costs $74.99 regularly. It's great! I got hooked up, very lucky!

Yes the first box is free, always has been, I forgot to mention, and $5.99 sounds right for each extra box, I've been with Directv for 12 years and its probably gone up and I didn't pay much attention to a few dollars. I have 3 HD-DVRs in my house, I didn't get them all at one time but I was never charged a dime for any of them.

As far as deals go, a while back Dish Network was giving HD service away for life, so I called Directv and they gave me HD service free for life too. Plus I've been getting a $5 discount every month. It used to be $10, but since I get HD free, its now $5. They're normally really good about matching deals, but you have to get to the right dept. Thats why I mentioned "cancel service" when you call in.

AT&T and Comcast are different but they both are the "standard" cable companies depending on what area your in. They probably share tech.

Whats also cool is Directv recently changed their guide and menu system and it looks great. Modern and flashy. I love it. They really do a great job. I know you'll be happy. Good luck.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, after a day of having my Direct TV system (the old style) it automatically sensed that there was new software available and downloaded it. The new guide/menu is definitely snazzy looking.

So that "cancel service" tip you mentioned, you mean that you only have to tell that to the automated system when you first call, and that will connect you to the proper department who will hook you up, and you don't actually have to threaten to cancel service with the live operator? Because with my interactions with TW, I've realized I'm not that good at playing Cable TV chicken with the customer service reps. 3 times I called explaining that the TW bill was too high, and I was seriously thinking about cancelling, and it didn't get me anywhere. That's what motivated me to switch to Direct TV.
 
[quote name='monash65']Yeah, after a day of having my Direct TV system (the old style) it automatically sensed that there was new software available and downloaded it. The new guide/menu is definitely snazzy looking.

So that "cancel service" tip you mentioned, you mean that you only have to tell that to the automated system when you first call, and that will connect you to the proper department who will hook you up, and you don't actually have to threaten to cancel service with the live operator? Because with my interactions with TW, I've realized I'm not that good at playing Cable TV chicken with the customer service reps. 3 times I called explaining that the TW bill was too high, and I was seriously thinking about cancelling, and it didn't get me anywhere. That's what motivated me to switch to Direct TV.[/QUOTE]

Yes when you dial the into customer service and give them your phone number and what not, the automated system asks you what you want, you say cancel service. It will say something like "do you want to change your programing, or cancel service". You say cancel service again, and it will transfer you to the customer retention dept in Dallas i think.

You really don't need to threaten to cancel, and I don't recommend it. You can say stuff like, Dish has this promo or you were hoping there is some kind of deal or whatever you want to say. They have the authority to make changes. With you being a brand new customer, you're already getting the best deal, since new customer get the best deal and you would only really need to call if your having some kind of problem, and thats also the people you want to talk to for any issue.

I think if you don't have any issues with service you are going to be happy.
 
Cool, thanks for the tip. And yeah, I'm getting a decent deal right now, so I probably won't be needing to call them any time soon. Only real issue is the screen sometimes goes screwy and unreadable when I'm using the new guide system intensively (I'm a heavy guide user, I like to see what's on what channel and what's coming up in the next few hours before I flip over). But that's only when I'm using the guide, so I can live with it. So far the actual TV service has been without issue.

So does anyone have the Direct TV protection plan for $5.99 a month? I've read about it and I thought a lot of the stuff it covers was supposed to be provided anyway with your monthly payment. I mean, aren't you supposed to get dish realignments and in-home service calls for free anyway if there's a problem that's not your own fault? And apparently it covers "the cost of replacing defective equipment", I would have expected them to replace a faulty DVR for free if it's a problem with their own equipment (but obviously if the customer has done something that causes a problem with the equipment then they shouldnt have to pay). But maybe I'm being unreasonable. I don't love TWC or anything, but I remember they would send out tech guys for free to look at the problem if it was something to do with the cable line or whatever. So is the DTV protection plan worth getting or what?
 
[quote name='monash65']Cool, thanks for the tip. And yeah, I'm getting a decent deal right now, so I probably won't be needing to call them any time soon. Only real issue is the screen sometimes goes screwy and unreadable when I'm using the new guide system intensively (I'm a heavy guide user, I like to see what's on what channel and what's coming up in the next few hours before I flip over). But that's only when I'm using the guide, so I can live with it. So far the actual TV service has been without issue.

So does anyone have the Direct TV protection plan for $5.99 a month? I've read about it and I thought a lot of the stuff it covers was supposed to be provided anyway with your monthly payment. I mean, aren't you supposed to get dish realignments and in-home service calls for free anyway if there's a problem that's not your own fault? And apparently it covers "the cost of replacing defective equipment", I would have expected them to replace a faulty DVR for free if it's a problem with their own equipment (but obviously if the customer has done something that causes a problem with the equipment then they shouldnt have to pay). But maybe I'm being unreasonable. I don't love TWC or anything, but I remember they would send out tech guys for free to look at the problem if it was something to do with the cable line or whatever. So is the DTV protection plan worth getting or what?[/QUOTE]

I do have the protection plan. It's too much of a grey area when there's issues with the dish or receiver or whatever. DTV is good about handling situations of "manufactures defects" but it's always a pain and it depends on who you talk to, and I think there's only a 1 year warranty, I don't know for sure. They treat you like you "own the boxes, which is weird imo. I remember having to get a replacement DVR back in the day, they would give it to me for free but wanted to charge me $14.99 shipping. Another time I was having signal problems and they wanted to charge me $99 for a tech to come out. These examples are from a while ago, but these situations happen.

Honestly the main reason I have the protection plan is for service issues with my dish (needed someone to come out once in the last 5 years) and replacement HD-DVRs. I had an old box and I wanted an upgrade but they wanted to charge me $199, but since I have the protection plan, I say that its not working properly ect. and they send a new one out no charge. Plus its normally the newer version, which is what I always want.

It's up to you. You'll maybe need it once a year, but if its a new HD-DVR thats $199...well worth it.
 
Good info, thanks. After reading what you wrote, I went ahead and added the protection program. I figure for $60 bucks a year it's worth it for the peace of mind. One of the DTV techs (they had to come round again for a cabling issue where I lost my signal) told me that the warranty is only for three months, I guess after that I get charged $50 for a tech visit no matter what the issue might be. So I think its worth it. I'll probably keep it for at least as long as my two year contract is in effect.

The same tech guy also told me that same thing as you- no matter what the issue, if you have the protection plan, basically just say "it's not working" and they'll sort it out. Do they always just send you the new equipment if you say it's not working, or do they sometimes send a tech guy round to check it out in person? The guy I spoke to said that under the protection plan, sometimes they decide to do a home visit to sort out the issue that you tell them about.
 
I skipped on the protection plan. But I also don't have a dish to worry about since I'm in a high rise and there's just the big community dish or whatever on the roof.

So it would just be for the HD-DVR and I figured I'd take my chance on that like I do with all electronics.

My philosophy is that if I bought a warranty/protection plan for every gadget I own, that would run me way more in the long-run than what I'll end up paying to replace the few things that do breakdown before I'm ready to replace them.
 
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