CAG Infraction System Now Active (Beta/Trial)

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[quote name='Slim Gatsby']a million "omg tahts not a deal u tard" replies are kosher?[/quote]I've given out infractions for posts like that.
 
[quote name='Koggit']Let's stop being so juvenile. I'm guilty of it too -- we've spent the past few pages whining about infractions that we feel were unwarranted, and the moderators (and Cheapy) have spent the past few pages on the defense. We've all been a little childish, and it's going nowhere. Let's put our egos aside so that some productive discussion may actually take place.

Many of us feel as though moderation has gotten a bit out of control lately -- both unequal, in the manner of equal punishment for all members, and also unjust, in that it is much more severe than what should be required. This is a very serious issue for a site whose purpose and paycheck are both derived from a strong community. CAG's becoming NeoGAF, a site where nearly every member (with very few exceptions, the GAF elite) have to censor themselves for fear of being banned. Many of us common CAGs have expressed our concern for this direction. It's gotten a bit lost in all the personal complaints/defenses, but it's there.

It would probably be best to discuss moderation, as a whole, rather than specific moderators, to avoid the mud-flinging.

Can we agree that CAG's guidelines for what is and isn't acceptable (or, perhaps just the enforcement of existing rules) has gotten much more strict recently (the past year or so)? I expect we should all be able to agree on that. The question, then, is whether or not it's an improvement. Quite a few members, both offenders and not, have spoken out against the moderating standards. I think it'd be good for us to hear the opinion of those in charge now -- trying not to bring anything personal into it, which may just divert this conversation into the juvenile accusations/defense that it's been for the past few pages.[/quote]

Dude, before this infraction system, and you posting in this thread, I had no idea who you were. You've been here nearly 5 years. Never before this 'nazi' comparison have you ever caused a problem in a CAG moderator's eyes, that I know of. This system is supposed to make it easier to target problem users and repeat offenders. As far as I know, you're neither.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, why are you so afraid of being banned 'just like at neogaf' all of a sudden? How does this system not let you speak your mind? The only change is that the moderation is now a bit more public. That's a good thing. People can see the warnings and make sure they don't do it again.

Your crusade doesn't make sense to me.
 
[quote name='CheapyD']I've given out infractions for posts like that.[/QUOTE]

Oh now that's awesome. (Seriously)
It's one thing when it's REALLY not a deal, but even the weakest of deals are still deals. Makes me so mad when people jump on the OP of a deal thread and bash them :bomb:
 
[quote name='Trakan']Dude, before this infraction system, and you posting in this thread, I had no idea who you were. You've been here nearly 5 years. Never before this 'nazi' comparison have you ever caused a problem in a CAG moderator's eyes, that I know of. This system is supposed to make it easier to target problem users and repeat offenders. As far as I know, you're neither.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, why are you so afraid of being banned 'just like at neogaf' all of a sudden? How does this system not let you speak your mind? The only change is that the moderation is now a bit more public. That's a good thing. People can see the warnings and make sure they don't do it again.

Your crusade doesn't make sense to me.[/QUOTE]

You don't always have to be looking out for yourself. He has the community's plight in mind.
 
[quote name='CheapyD']I've given out infractions for posts like that.[/quote]

If that's the case then there's a crapload of infractions to be handed out in the DualShock 3 deal thread ($39.99 w/ GCO). Every other post is a CAG saying "GCO is not a deal!"
 
[quote name='Chitown021']If that's the case then there's a crapload of infractions to be handed out in the DualShock 3 deal thread ($39.99 w/ GCO). Every other post is a CAG saying "GCO is not a deal!"[/QUOTE]

None of them were too bad (no one calling anyone 'tards or anything ;)). But regardless I cleaned them up. I wasn't about to infract 10-12 people though (who posted solely about GCO not being a deal). Way easier just to delete, clean up the title, and make a post explaining all that.
 
[quote name='io']None of them were too bad (no one calling anyone 'tards or anything ;)). But regardless I cleaned them up. I wasn't about to infract 10-12 people though (who posted solely about GCO not being a deal). Way easier just to delete, clean up the title, and make a post explaining all that.[/QUOTE]

And that is exactly the point a lot people are making. You do the right thing and just clean it up, while other mods seem to be infracting. It's the unevenness of the whole procedure that bugs me, as well as the gray surrounding it all. I mean, infracting someone in the Target thread saying they can pick an extra game up for someone? That shit's asinine.
 
sorry if this has been asked but I just found this thread and its already 460 post's. (read first and last 2 pages so far)

No questions are meant in a jerky or smart alecky way just asking for information/policy.


Multiple Trade Lists - 1 point - 1 Month

there is there trade forum for general trade list then there is also the guide trading thread http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175548 If someone posts their guides in the guide trading thread and in their general trade list with their others stuff is that a multiple trade list infraction ¿?


Bumping old threads

from what I read (might have understood it out of context) someone bumped and old thread and got negged. Is the prefereed method for people to try to use exsiting related threads or make a new one if the old one is x number of days old ¿?


Facilitating Game Piracy - 1 point - 1 Month

Please either explain this in a reply or in the first post. Also please take everything else in this post as a question. Sorry if any of it is demed inappropriate as I am just trying to prevent people from trouble as well as understand the intent.

Emulation ¿?
Emulator links ¿?
direct Emulator links ¿?
Rom discussion ¿?
Rom links ¿?
Direct Rom links ¿?
Game translations links ¿? (example http://frontmission.info/)
game translation file links ¿?
Direct game translation file links ¿?
Torrent discusion period¿?
Specific torrent sites ¿?
Direct torrent links ¿?
Torrent invite links or threads ¿?
Game hardware (such as the max media dock or r4){granted the r4 is more of a strait hack, thought it does more than just strait games. Where as the media dock is marketed as more of a mp3/video player thought it can do more} links or discussion ¿?

of course there are many more variables there. Again just asking for understanding not trying to violate or offend.

I also understand no matter how many questions I ask there will always be some gray. From what I have been able to see over the last 4 or so years is there have been ups down on the site but nothing that would even come close to being a nazi zealot about it and except in the very rare case all appears to have been handled at least appropriately if not better.

Thanks for the great site and I await your reply.
 
It seems to me that most of the complaints are about mods abusing their new power, so wouldn't the simplest way to keep this from happening is to allow CAGs( maybe only the senior and more active CAGs) to vote out a mods.
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']It seems to me that most of the complaints are about mods abusing their new power, so wouldn't the simplest way to keep this from happening is to allow CAGs( maybe only the senior and more active CAGs) to vote out a mods.[/QUOTE]

I think a comprehensive review would suffice.
 
I give up. This is just frustratingly futile. It seems the point is either being defended, denied, ignored. Either way, I'm not much for fighting battles that can't be won.

Io's response was the most productive so far, really. What he said would be fantastic if it were universally true for all mods, but it isn't. Trolling needs to be moderated, but not to the extent that people are afraid of saying "importing HDDVDs is silly." Harassment needs to be moderated, but not to the extent that people are afraid of making off-key jokes. Mass bumping should be in the rules somewhere, but a single necropost (even 2 or 3) shouldn't be cause for punishment. Etc, etc. Rules should make the forum better, by encouraging behavior that benefits the forum and restricting behavior that makes the forum worse. I strongly believe the rules are too strict (or too strictly enforced, that might be more accurate), in that they go beyond keeping the peace and fall into oppression, restricting discussion much further than necessary.

And Trakan -- the fact that I've never had any sort of run-in with the moderation until now, when criticizing the moderation five years later, should be one of the most striking points. My "crusade" is not the result of moderators' actions against me, but rather observations of the direction of CAG moderation. It's not out of self-interest, it's out of board-interest. It's definitely nothing personal. I lurk a lot more than I post anyway.
 
What you guys don't seem to understand is that before this system was in place, the only options that we had was temp ban, and permanent ban.

In some situations we did run into issues that we are currently giving points for but at the time, it wouldn't warrant a temp ban or permanent ban because the punishment would seem too strict or over the top. We had no method of checking out repeat offenders except for using our memory and discussing users with other mods.

For example, a user goes into a deal thread and posts: "this isn't a deal dipshit" - We wouldn't ban them for this, we did send out warning PM's regularly, but it was hard to keep track. Now with the point system, in the example above, the user would get infraction points and they tie to their profile which makes it easier for us mods and the user to keep track, and therefore prevent unwarranted recurring behavior.
 
I think we can all agree that it helps centralize the warning/infractions/bannings for the mods. But the fact of the matter is that people are pissed off because those of us that have received warning/infractions never would have been warned for the same posts a month ago. I've never received a warning from a mod ever in the 4 years I've been posting here, but I received one the second the new system went into effect.
 
[quote name='lordwow']I think we can all agree that it helps centralize the warning/infractions/bannings for the mods. But the fact of the matter is that people are pissed off because those of us that have received warning/infractions never would have been warned for the same posts a month ago. I've never received a warning from a mod ever in the 4 years I've been posting here, but I received one the second the new system went into effect.[/quote]

Exactly...we didn't have a working system before, this is why you never received a warning. The system in place right now is so simple that all we do is click on a little icon add a little comment, and its done. It might seem odd to the people that aren't repeat offenders, but for those of you who have gotten infractions or warnings already, I bet you will think twice before posting. For repeat offenders, which we have already had, in certain occasions they have been automatically silenced after receiving certain infractions and also some have received temp bans. You don't see them coming in here complaining but its happening.

Simply put, the system is working, you just need to give it time. If you received a point, its basically like receiving a PM warning back in the day. If we had PM'd you and you did it again, we would have temp banned you. Now, you'll have a point, if you don't do anything that doesn't warrant any points, it will disappear and if you do something that warrants more points, the system will dish out the proper punishment.
 
maybe this has been answered already, but say party A is joking around with party B in a thread and party B is well aware that its a joke, but party C decides to report it just cause its a personal attack, joke or not. does party a still receive the infraction point? even though party B didn't even take it seriously?

example - yesterday i told linkinprime ''hey, change the date on the ikaruga thread from 7/9 to 4/9, ya dumbass'' and he knew i was kidding (he whined about me picking on him through PM thinking i was serious one day, but all of that was cleared up). if someone else reported that, would i still be infracted?
 
[quote name='LinkinPrime'] It might seem odd to the people that aren't repeat offenders, but for those of you who have gotten infractions or warnings already, I bet you will think twice before posting.
[/QUOTE]

I think this sums up pretty much why I disagree with this entire system.
 
[quote name='tiredfornow']maybe this has been answered already, but say party A is joking around with party B in a thread and party B is well aware that its a joke, but party C decides to report it just cause its a personal attack, joke or not. does party a still receive the infraction point? even though party B didn't even take it seriously?

example - yesterday i told linkinprime ''hey, change the date on the ikaruga thread from 7/9 to 4/9, ya dumbass'' and he knew i was kidding (he whined about me picking on him through PM thinking i was serious one day, but all of that was cleared up). if someone else reported that, would i still be infracted?[/quote]

If party A or party B report it, then yes. If party C who was just looking would report, we would contact both party A and B to see what the actual intentions were before sending infraction(s). If it was deemed that it was a joke amongst friends, no infraction would be given and we may contact party C to let them know it was a joke amongst friends.
 
[quote name='LinkinPrime']It might seem odd to the people that aren't repeat offenders, but for those of you who have gotten infractions or warnings already, I bet you will think twice before posting something stupid or innappropriate.[/QUOTE]

Fixed for lordwow.

[quote name='lordwow']I think this sums up pretty much why I disagree with this entire system.[/QUOTE]

If it makes you stop and think twice about posting for example "Google Checkout is not a deal dipshit" vs "Google Checkout is not a deal" and maybe actually explaining why it's not a deal , then isn't that a good thing?

Suggestion not related to the infraction system that I just thought of , maybe having a Google Checkout Master thread? Kinda like the Wal-Mart YMMV thread.
 
[quote name='StarKnightX']
Suggestion not related to the infraction system that I just thought of , maybe having a Google Checkout Master thread? Kinda like the Wal-Mart YMMV thread.[/quote]


Pretty sure this has been tried before and it fell through the cracks.
 
[quote name='Pookymeister']Pretty this has been tried before and it fell through the cracks.[/QUOTE]

I think I remember it being tried before , now that you mentioned it.
 
I think this new infraction system is fantastic, and there's no reason to flip out if you get an infraction as it is meaningless unless you're a repeat offender.

I understand that in the old system some of you, like myself, have never been moderated before. But to be honest, I can think of a few posts that I've made that would warrant some form of moderation but may not be severe enough for a temp/perm ban. Therein lies the problem, the old system let forum trolls repeat their offenses without any consequence unless the moderation team kept tabs on them.
 
[quote name='LinkinPrime']What you guys don't seem to understand is that before this system was in place, the only options that we had was temp ban, and permanent ban.

In some situations we did run into issues that we are currently giving points for but at the time, it wouldn't warrant a temp ban or permanent ban because the punishment would seem too strict or over the top. We had no method of checking out repeat offenders except for using our memory and discussing users with other mods.

For example, a user goes into a deal thread and posts: "this isn't a deal dipshit" - We wouldn't ban them for this, we did send out warning PM's regularly, but it was hard to keep track. Now with the point system, in the example above, the user would get infraction points and they tie to their profile which makes it easier for us mods and the user to keep track, and therefore prevent unwarranted recurring behavior.[/QUOTE]
You still don't get that the problem people are having is not with the system, it's with the mods in charge who abuse it, i.e. (you, daphatty).

Look, Linkin, I like you as a poster, you're a cool guy, but I think you aren't cut out for moderating.
 
[quote name='munch']It's not the system, yukine, but the way it's being implemented that's the problem.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. I try to be very conscientious in my posts, and I severely doubt I would personally be subject to any infractions.

I think the infraction system, as drafted, is excellent. However, the execution of this system has been troubling. A system that was supposed to clarify the rules and make moderation more public instead seems to have increased arbitrary and unreasonable use of moderator authority. I would love it if some of the more egregious trolling and personal insult-slinging could be reduced. However, I don't want this place to be white-washed into banality just to appease the ego of moderators who think simply because they can impose new penalties, they should do so.

This troubles me as a member of the community, regardless of whether I will personally be impacted.
 
[quote name='strummerbs']Exactly. I try to be very conscientious in my posts, and I severely doubt I would personally be subject to any infractions.

I think the infraction system, as drafted, is excellent. However, the execution of this system has been troubling. A system that was supposed to clarify the rules and make moderation more public instead seems to have increased arbitrary and unreasonable use of moderator authority. I would love it if some of the more egregious trolling and personal insult-slinging could be reduced. However, I don't want this place to be white-washed into banality just to appease the ego of moderators who think simply because they can impose new penalties, they should do so.

This troubles me as a member of the community, regardless of whether I will personally be impacted.[/QUOTE]

This. 100%.
 
Why is any of the OTT crowd in here?

You're already exempt from all the rules and you know it, no matter what you do. Hell, the OTT is home to various mods as well, who don't do anything in the midst of whatever is being discussed.

Don't pull this "champion of the people" crap. Likewise, if anyone believes that is their cause, you're really naive.

And before you say it, know that I said long ago that I thought this system was a little flawed from the beginning. It relies on people and their own decisions. There's no real democracy at play (which is fine, actually), and it's all up to subjective opinion. There's bound to be disagreements.

All this really does is opens the door to the public being able to collectively hear the complaints of someone as they get an infarction, which can then lead to numerous blowhard discussions about it where nothing gets done. Kind of like...99% of this entire thread.
 
[quote name='Strell']Why is any of the OTT crowd in here?

[/QUOTE]

Getting dumped in said OTT absolves you from ever being associated with it, huh?
 
Wow. That's all it took to annoy you, eh Cochese?

Highly amusing. Especially when I never made the claim I wasn't ever a part of it. Daphatty already threatened me once about exactly that a few weeks ago in the thread that was discussing the infarction system before this thread was created.
 
[quote name='munch']And that is exactly the point a lot people are making. You do the right thing and just clean it up, while other mods seem to be infracting. It's the unevenness of the whole procedure that bugs me, as well as the gray surrounding it all.[/QUOTE]

Note that none of the posts complaining about the GCO post were insulting. Had someone been overly harsh on the OP I probably would have sent an infraction warning at least. Enforcement will be somewhat uneven as we sort it all out but I bet it will become more consistent with time.
 
Maybe I missed it in this thread, but how are any of the moderators "abusing their power"? Perhaps there have been a couple of suspect infractions, but nothing has come of them?
We just need to give this new system some time, you guys have to remember that this isn't only new to us but it's new to the moderators as well.

Not trying to say that we shouldn't be critical of it... but rather than accusing the moderators of abusing their authority, we should make suggestions on how to better improve the system.
 
We, in the OTT, are not exempt.

If anything, we are among the most dedicated and long-time posters on here. And all the more reason we are opposed to it in general.
 
[quote name='LinkinPrime']If party A or party B report it, then yes. If party C who was just looking would report, we would contact both party A and B to see what the actual intentions were before sending infraction(s). If it was deemed that it was a joke amongst friends, no infraction would be given and we may contact party C to let them know it was a joke amongst friends.[/quote]

In theory this is how things should work but in reality I can see some mods on here handing out the infractions first then having to respond to a bunch of PMs from A & B saying "WTF man we were just joking with each other!"


This brings me to a question: can an infraction be retracted if the situation warrants it?
 
[quote name='zewone']Productive and mature.[/QUOTE]

Tit for tat my friend. If you have a legitimate gripe with me then send me a PM and we'll work something out. Otherwise, keep me out of your baseless accusations.

[quote name='Chitown021']
This brings me to a question: can an infraction be retracted if the situation warrants it?[/QUOTE]

Yes, and this has happened already.
 
[quote name='Strell']Why is any of the OTT crowd in here?

You're already exempt from all the rules and you know it, no matter what you do. Hell, the OTT is home to various mods as well, who don't do anything in the midst of whatever is being discussed.[/quote]

Because, as as already been said a good number of times here, not everyone only looks out for themselves, but the site as a whole and its quality?
 
[quote name='Strell']Wow. That's all it took to annoy you, eh Cochese?

Highly amusing. Especially when I never made the claim I wasn't ever a part of it. Daphatty already threatened me once about exactly that a few weeks ago in the thread that was discussing the infarction system before this thread was created.[/QUOTE]

Not annoyed, amused. Mainly because it looked like exactly what you said you weren't trying to do.
 
From reading most of this thread, I can see 2 camps, one who think the mods are too lenient on some people/posts, and one who think the mods are too strict. This is just a microcosm of real life. Police sometimes let you off on a warning for speeding, some slap you with all the stuff they can find wrong.

Mods are human and trying to do the best they can and trying to use their best judgement. Since they are not robots, you will not have a uniform result when dealing with infractions. Why is this so hard to accept here, but people generally accept it when it's in the form of police in real life?
You can't expect all the mods to be perfect in their judgement and uniform in their infraction handouts. I do think that the mods we have set good examples and do their best to try and be fair. That is all you can ask for.
You have to understand that each mod is different and brings with them a different set of standards and personality. Accept it and learn to live with it.

IMO this is just a lot of people making a mountain out of a mole hill.
I'm with StarknightX on this one, I dont see why it's so hard for people to be nice to one another and respect each other and their opinions. Play nice and you won't have to worry about points or bans.
 
[quote name='CocheseUGA']Oh, I see. So that little bit of information was private, huh? I'll let the rest of the site know to stop talking about it every time your username is mentioned then.

This, coming from someone that I've never NOT seen make a smartass or insulting comment to someone. You are the last person to be throwing stones.[/QUOTE]

If you're going to give me proof this definite in that you have absolutely no point, and instead have just come in here to insult me, then perhaps you shouldn't talk.

Oddly enough, if anything happens out of this, I'll probably end up with infarcmoshins or whatever the hell, and you'll go away tooting your small horn.

Maybe you could provide a reason why you chose to insult me first? I don't think you can, especially when it is obviously considered - as I've pointed out - that the OTT is almost considered wholly separate from the rest of CAG and the rules that govern it. There's questionable links and material in it, no end to insulting posts and other general trolling, and basically a haven for two dozen members to do whatever they want.

Why don't you go back to dealing with suspicious sites that are going to ship you some counterfeit 360 games, or whatever the hell it was you were dealing with back when you were talking about at that time, and were going to sell on this site to other members of this site?

Besides, I can't help it if punks like you are so willing to insult me first for the pure chance at hearing me vent something else back at you.
 
Hey, lets keep this thread on track otherwise I'll shut it down. This isn't the place for your personal arguments.
 
[quote name='lordwow']Strell, if you're so offended by the posts in the OTT, why don't you report them?[/QUOTE]

For the same reason I don't try to squeeze water from rocks.
 
I don't even know why it's open.

Nothing will come from this thread besides pointless arguments.

Neither side is going to see the other's point of view.

Close it up.
 
[quote name='zewone']Neither side is going to see the other's point of view.[/QUOTE]

For the most part, only one side has stated their view.

But I agree this thread is worthless. Nothing but mud flinging. Boring mud flinging at that, since everyone is afraid of infractions. Either get out of the mud or make it spicy.
 
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