CAG Infraction System Now Active (Beta/Trial)

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[quote name='Vertigo']yeah, hasn't this been attempted (and failed) already?[/quote]

Yes, it was closed about half an hour ago; thanks for pointing out the obvious. I'm simply trying to maintain active (CONSTRUCTIVE) discussion so that the issue does not fall by the wayside.
 
What just happened in the last 30 minutes or so is a perfect example of why the system is flawed, but (to be fair) also why there's some shred of hope.
 
[quote name='Warner1281']constructive and useful... good job. :roll:[/QUOTE]
Way better than your ass kissing / condescending two cents.
 
[quote name='Chitown021']Overruled![/QUOTE]

That's fine. Cheapy had already asked everyone to keep their posts on topic and constructive but for some reason certain people ignored him. It was easier to stop the nonsense by closing the thread. However, Cheapy still wants input so... that means I will be watching the posts and using our infraction system instead.
 
[quote name='daphatty']That's fine. Cheapy had already asked everyone to keep their posts on topic and constructive but for some reason certain people ignored him. It was easier to stop the nonsense by closing the thread. However, Cheapy still wants input so... that means I will be watching the posts and using our infraction system instead.[/quote]

No offense, but isn't that the easy way out? Although individually deleting and warning people for their less-than-witty one-liners would have taken longer, it would have gotten the point across that this thread is meant as a serious forum for feedback and course-corrected it as such, as opposed to adding more fuel to the "zomg corrupt system!111" argument by, effectively, censoring all further commentary on the subject.
 
[quote name='daphatty']That's fine. Cheapy had already asked everyone to keep their posts on topic and constructive but for some reason certain people ignored him. It was easier to stop the nonsense by closing the thread. However, Cheapy still wants input so... that means I will be watching the posts and using our infraction system instead.[/quote]

(Quickly checks to see if that last post earned me another pt...:censored:)


I wonder from a MOD standpoint has the number of infractions handed out increased, decreased, stayed the same since the system was put into place?

I'm curious if there were a ton of pts issued but now they've started to taper off as CAGs adjust...
 
I may be confused here but why was it that when someone was complaining about an infraction in a thread about the infraction system the thread was shut down but when someone was just throwing a bunch of insults and obscenities around, nothing was done?

People are going to have biases I can only hope that mods try to keep their biases out of it or that there will be a checks and balances system in place. I personally think the infraction system is better than just banning someone outright.
 
[quote name='Slim Gatsby']No offense, but isn't that the easy way out? Although individually deleting and warning people for their less-than-witty one-liners would have taken longer, it would have gotten the point across that this thread is meant as a serious forum for feedback and course-corrected it as such, as opposed to adding more fuel to the "zomg corrupt system!111" argument by, effectively, censoring all further commentary on the subject.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I was trying to be nice. Contrary to the beliefs of a select few on this site, I don't like having to treat people like children and hand out punishments.

it would have gotten the point across
Click to expand...

Cheapy asked people to keep posts in this thread on topic. It doesn't get more to the point than that.


[quote name='Chitown021'](Quickly checks to see if that last post earned me another pt...:censored:)


I wonder from a MOD standpoint has the number of infractions handed out increased, decreased, stayed the same since the system was put into place?

I'm curious if there were a ton of pts issued but now they've started to taper off as CAGs adjust...[/QUOTE]

I'd say things are about on par with what we started out with.

[quote name='AngellicLulu']I may be confused here but why was it that when someone was complaining about an infraction in a thread about the infraction system the thread was shut down but when someone was just throwing a bunch of insults and obscenities around, nothing was done?[/QUOTE]

We were instructed to let things continue. However, once Cheapy addressed certain legitimate concerns (piracy, etc.) it seemed the members with those complaints were satisfied and they moved on. The only members posting after that were people who were late to the party, members who had not seen the thread and wanted to show their support, or the thread crappers who enjoy hating on Infraction System supporters.
 
Why was my post deleted?


[quote name='Daphatty']I don't like having to treat people like children and hand out punishments. [/QUOTE]You live for it, and everyone knows it.
 
I like how my post, containing a legitimate concern, was deleted.

It was something like:

"So you're going to hand out infractions instead of dealing with users' issues?"

Talk about irony. If your solution is to simply delete posts then you might as well lock the thread again.
 
All this beating around the bush is getting stupid. Why don't the respective people just come out and say what they really mean/enlighten us?

If daphatty is really being awesome and holding back etc. then tell us about it. I get the feeling that some people just had interpretation issues at the start and are now more worried about backing themselves up rather than using this system as it should be, or was intended to be.

For starters, what are we trying to get out of this thread? Cheapy obviously wants it open for some reason, but most of the possibilities have already been used up. We have the people who think the system is either lame or needs some major changes, the people who like the system, and then it seems a few mods make up the final group of who knows what. Ok, great. Now what?

Some news about the progress or even some of the ideas that are being formed from the "discussion" so far would be great, because all we have now is speculation.

The old system was setup in a decent enough way IMO. People that did something banworthy would be removed, others would be cautioned by the mods or we'd self police through criticism. There was never a need for this system in the first place, it just seems like something to try out simply because of this supposed CAG 2.0 upgrade thing.

Well, we've tried it out. Now what?
 
Its seems to me that the majority of the complaints here are coming from CAG veterans, so I thought I'd chime in as someone who has maybe five posts on the forum and just happened to notice this thread.

This place is becoming way over-moderated. It's very confusing for a new member to get involved in conversations, especially if you've got anything remotely negative to say about a particular game or console. There's a difference between being a troll and having a negative opinion about something. This is gonna be a pretty boring place once every thread about every game consists of the people who liked it posting "oh what a great game" and all the people who didn't being censored and punished for "trolling".

I can understand that Cheapy doesn't want to see this place become GameFAQs, and that's certainly commendable, but you've really got to be careful not to alienate people. I can't speak for everyone, but me, I know the first time I post that I don't think the Wii Zapper is great piece of hardware or that Microsoft makes a shoddy console(in the appropriate thread, of course) and I get a "warning" in my PM box for trolling, that's the last time I visit CAG. And it's certainly the last time I bother going to CAG and clicking the Play-Asia or Amazon link before I buy a bunch of crap. People who have been around for a long time may be more apt to stick around, but newer people are just going to go somewhere else.

Bottom line, if someone's being a jackass for the sake of being a jackass then I can certainly understand this stuff. But if someone's railing a console or a game it's a little ridiculous to mod them because it might hurt some fanboy's feelings.
 
[quote name='Scottyman']Its seems to me that the majority of the complaints here are coming from CAG veterans, so I thought I'd chime in as someone who has maybe five posts on the forum and just happened to notice this thread.

This place is becoming way over-moderated. It's very confusing for a new member to get involved in conversations, especially if you've got anything remotely negative to say about a particular game or console. There's a difference between being a troll and having a negative opinion about something. This is gonna be a pretty boring place once every thread about every game consists of the people who liked it posting "oh what a great game" and all the people who didn't being censored and punished for "trolling".

I can understand that Cheapy doesn't want to see this place become GameFAQs, and that's certainly commendable, but you've really got to be careful not to alienate people. I can't speak for everyone, but me, I know the first time I post that I don't think the Wii Zapper is great piece of hardware or that Microsoft makes a shoddy console(in the appropriate thread, of course) and I get a "warning" in my PM box for trolling, that's the last time I visit CAG. And it's certainly the last time I bother going to CAG and clicking the Play-Asia or Amazon link before I buy a bunch of crap. People who have been around for a long time may be more apt to stick around, but newer people are just going to go somewhere else.

Bottom line, if someone's being a jackass for the sake of being a jackass then I can certainly understand this stuff. But if someone's railing a console or a game it's a little ridiculous to mod them because it might hurt some fanboy's feelings.[/QUOTE]

You say that there is a difference between having a negative opinion about something and trolling and nobody is disagreeing with you. Nobody is stopping you from saying that the wii zapper might be crappy or that the 360 is faulty hardware or anything else but it comes down to logic and reason. To quote myself and Io from about 3 or 4 pages ago:

[quote name='StarKnightX']Who says you can't speak your mind? If you want to go into the SSBB thread and say you dont like this , this and this about the game , as long as you can back up your points with valid logical claims then who's stoping you? Don't like Subspace but liked Adventure mode , tell us why? If you were to just go into the thread though and say "SSBB sucks , why do you all like this game?" then I see no reason to not get an infraction for that since your not adding anything to the conversation and honestly , if you don't like SSBB then why the hell were you in a thread about it anyway? Maybe I think the PS3 sucks , maybe I'll go into the PS3 forums and tell everyone that I think the PS3 sucks.[/quote]

[quote name='Io']Exactly... As a guide for that area (Nintendo) I'm certainly not going to infract or even mess with posts where people are critical of a Nintendo game, the Wii, or the company itself. I may argue against such things as a regular user but no way am I going to use my "power" against those I don't agree with. I wouldn't even go so far as to infract for a "SSBB sucks , why do you all like this game?" post. I'd either let other users handle it (as long as they keep it civil) or at worst I'd simply delete that post to prevent anything from getting out of hand. Now, if someone goes in and swears up a storm and calls everyone in the thread lame-asses for playing that Kidtendo system - stuff like that, use your imagination - then an infraction will be given.[/quote]

To use the Wii zapper as an example: Saying "The wii zapper sucks" might be considered trolling (I don't actually know , I'm not a mod;)) but saying "The wii zapper sucks because it feels cheap and has a mushy trigger" would be acceptable cause it adds to the conversation.
 
[quote name='Scottyman']Its seems to me that the majority of the complaints here are coming from CAG veterans, so I thought I'd chime in as someone who has maybe five posts on the forum and just happened to notice this thread.

This place is becoming way over-moderated. It's very confusing for a new member to get involved in conversations, especially if you've got anything remotely negative to say about a particular game or console. There's a difference between being a troll and having a negative opinion about something. This is gonna be a pretty boring place once every thread about every game consists of the people who liked it posting "oh what a great game" and all the people who didn't being censored and punished for "trolling".

I can understand that Cheapy doesn't want to see this place become GameFAQs, and that's certainly commendable, but you've really got to be careful not to alienate people. I can't speak for everyone, but me, I know the first time I post that I don't think the Wii Zapper is great piece of hardware or that Microsoft makes a shoddy console(in the appropriate thread, of course) and I get a "warning" in my PM box for trolling, that's the last time I visit CAG. And it's certainly the last time I bother going to CAG and clicking the Play-Asia or Amazon link before I buy a bunch of crap. People who have been around for a long time may be more apt to stick around, but newer people are just going to go somewhere else.

Bottom line, if someone's being a jackass for the sake of being a jackass then I can certainly understand this stuff. But if someone's railing a console or a game it's a little ridiculous to mod them because it might hurt some fanboy's feelings.[/QUOTE]

Well said
 
In fewer words, it's not trolling if you can back up your dissent with logical, well-thought out statements as opposed to "lol zapper sucks. ur a nintenerd".

I've been watching this thread for a while, but figured I would finally pop in and add my comments to the discussion.

As a former moderator of a fairly large gaming site, I certainly can emphasize of why the infraction system was put into place. It's very easy to lose track of who did what, and when, and what kind of restrictions should be put upon an unruly user. This system is certain a "+1" over what was previously implemented, if I assume correctly, that a record of a moderator's actions are kept in the system. This is a great improvement for several reasons, it's easier to keep track of problem users, and the actions of a moderator can and should be kept accountable.

I don't want to be placing words in anyone's mouths, so correct me if I'm wrong, but the problem I see that some of you have seem to be with the moderator's themselves, and not with the system that is currently in place. If a moderator is going to hold bias towards any user or how an infraction is place, then a new system won't change any of that. Unless of course the history of a moderator can show them in the wrong, then that is certainly to the user's advantage of the moderator does hold a bias.

Clearly this thread is about the new infraction system, and not the actions of moderators. It seems to me that if there are any issues with any of the moderators they should be directly to Cheapy himself, and not inside this thread.
 
Thats the problem. Tracking infractions. So someone does something wrong once? It could just be a bad day or something. If whatever they do isn't something major enough to immediately ban them, why even bother tracking it?

Now if a moderator see someone doing something wrong, they look at their record and see, oh man this dude has had an infraction before, they are immediately going to make assumptions, when the events then and now may have absolutely 0 correlation.

If someone racks up enough points to get banned within a day or two, fine, get rid of them, but some of the expiration times on the current infractions are so ridiculously long.

Posted in Wrong Forum - 0 points - 7 Days
Signature Too Large - 1 point - 14 Days
Multiple Trade Lists - 1 point - 1 Month
Trolling / Disruptive Posts - 1 point - 1 Month
Facilitating Game Piracy - 1 point - 1 Month
Spamming / Self-Promotion - 2 points - 1 Month
Personal Attacks / Harassment - 2 points - 1 Month
Inappropriate Content - 2 points - 1 Month

Why in the heck would you want to track a post in the wrong forum for 7 days?

Signature two large= 2 weeks worth of tracking... why? If someone has a sig that is too large and it isn't changed within a day or two after a warning from a mod, just disable their ability to have a signature.

Multiple trade lists? If the user doesn't remove them, punish them for the forum that they've made the infraction in. Take away their ability to post in the trade forum if they don't get rid of the lists in a day or two. Why would you track this for a month? If they do it again after a PM'd warning to delete the threads, make them unable to post in the trade forum, but not make them unable to post everywhere. They caused problems in the trade forum, punish them in the trade forum.

This brings up another point. What good is it when you can't even see what infractions other people have? Sure, they get a nifty colored user title, but if someone has been screwing around in the trade forum with the current system, they could have already messed up twice before reaching the lowest tier of punishment, silence. I'd want to know so I could avoid trading with someone like that before they hit punishment.

The biggest problem right now is that the rules for some of these policies are not clearly defined. Some things that would fly in certain sections of the forums might not in others. Without setting at least some guidelines, it leaves much of the rule interpretation up to the moderators without the user being able to do anything about it. Either state that while in the past mods may have been lax about certain things, now they are going to be enforcing rules much more strictly, or, type up some rules that both the users and mods will have to follow and are not open to interpretation.

Mods should be enforcing the rules, not making or interpreting them, because as soon as a rule is ambiguous enough to be open to interpretation, there are going to be disagreements about what the rule means.
 
[quote name='BlueLobstah']In fewer words, it's not trolling if you can back up your dissent with logical, well-thought out statements as opposed to "lol zapper sucks. ur a nintenerd".

I've been watching this thread for a while, but figured I would finally pop in and add my comments to the discussion.

As a former moderator of a fairly large gaming site, I certainly can emphasize of why the infraction system was put into place. It's very easy to lose track of who did what, and when, and what kind of restrictions should be put upon an unruly user. This system is certain a "+1" over what was previously implemented, if I assume correctly, that a record of a moderator's actions are kept in the system. This is a great improvement for several reasons, it's easier to keep track of problem users, and the actions of a moderator can and should be kept accountable.

I don't want to be placing words in anyone's mouths, so correct me if I'm wrong, but the problem I see that some of you have seem to be with the moderator's themselves, and not with the system that is currently in place. If a moderator is going to hold bias towards any user or how an infraction is place, then a new system won't change any of that. Unless of course the history of a moderator can show them in the wrong, then that is certainly to the user's advantage of the moderator does hold a bias.

Clearly this thread is about the new infraction system, and not the actions of moderators. It seems to me that if there are any issues with any of the moderators they should be directly to Cheapy himself, and not inside this thread.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the issue is more with the mods than the system, IMO.
 
[quote name='crystalklear64']Thats the problem. Tracking infractions. So someone does something wrong once? It could just be a bad day or something. If whatever they do isn't something major enough to immediately ban them, why even bother tracking it?

Now if a moderator see someone doing something wrong, they look at their record and see, oh man this dude has had an infraction before, they are immediately going to make assumptions, when the events then and now may have absolutely 0 correlation.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly, sociologically, if someone gets arrested, the cops are far more likely to arrest them again in the future because there is an expectation they will commit a crime again, because they are a "criminal."
 
[quote name='crystalklear64']Now if a moderator see someone doing something wrong, they look at their record and see, oh man this dude has had an infraction before, they are immediately going to make assumptions, when the events then and now may have absolutely 0 correlation.[/quote]
Now who's making assumptions?
 
[quote name='CheapyD']Now who's making assumptions?[/QUOTE]

You say you want discussion but then respond to a very valid point with that? Come on, Cheapy.

Just lock the thread if you're going to ignore the feedback you receive.
 
Interesting. I thought once an infraction expired it would drop off and disappear from your account. Apparently that's not the case. My infraction expired yesterday but it remains and now just says "EXPIRED".

So I guess even after they expire past infractions remain as a permanent scar on your account.
 
[quote name='Chitown021']Interesting. I thought once an infraction expired it would drop off and disappear from your account. Apparently that's not the case. My infraction expired yesterday but it remains and now just says "EXPIRED".

So I guess even after they expire past infractions remain as a permanent scar on your account.[/QUOTE]

It's in your permanent record. I hope you weren't planning on going to college.
 
:lol: Ya, it's pretty ridiculous that infractions and warnings are now kept permanently. There's no point in having an expiration date if you're not going to remove them. I'm sure the response is going to be "well, the points will go away" but then of course, a moderator will look at a user's profile and go "wow he's already received 4 infractions for this in the past."
 
[quote name='lordwow']:lol: Ya, it's pretty ridiculous that infractions and warnings are now kept permanently. There's no point in having an expiration date if you're not going to remove them. I'm sure the response is going to be "well, the points will go away" but then of course, a moderator will look at a user's profile and go "wow he's already received 4 infractions for this in the past."[/quote]
I don't really see why that's a bad thing. Better than a profile being clean and a mod who's never dealt with the person saying "oh, this is the first time it's ever happened, must have been an honest mistake" when it's their fifth "honest mistake."
 
[quote name='botticus']I don't really see why that's a bad thing. Better than a profile being clean and a mod who's never dealt with the person saying "oh, this is the first time it's ever happened, must have been an honest mistake" when it's their fifth "honest mistake."[/QUOTE]

That's fine, but then they don't really expire.
 
[quote name='lordwow']That's fine, but then they don't really expire.[/quote]
The points expire, and that's the important thing.

I agree, its a distraction that they are still visible to you on your profile, but it is a valuable moderation tool. If I had the option to display them only to Moderators, I would.
 
[quote name='shrike4242']In an attempt to try and go soothe monkeydeew's paranoia, I've reversed the two points I gave him. Any mod can verify this, if you don't believe me.[/quote]

thanks bro i just saw that.
 
[quote name='crystalklear64']Thats the problem. Tracking infractions. So someone does something wrong once? It could just be a bad day or something. If whatever they do isn't something major enough to immediately ban them, why even bother tracking it?

Now if a moderator see someone doing something wrong, they look at their record and see, oh man this dude has had an infraction before, they are immediately going to make assumptions, when the events then and now may have absolutely 0 correlation.

If someone racks up enough points to get banned within a day or two, fine, get rid of them, but some of the expiration times on the current infractions are so ridiculously long.

Posted in Wrong Forum - 0 points - 7 Days
Signature Too Large - 1 point - 14 Days
Multiple Trade Lists - 1 point - 1 Month
Trolling / Disruptive Posts - 1 point - 1 Month
Facilitating Game Piracy - 1 point - 1 Month
Spamming / Self-Promotion - 2 points - 1 Month
Personal Attacks / Harassment - 2 points - 1 Month
Inappropriate Content - 2 points - 1 Month

Why in the heck would you want to track a post in the wrong forum for 7 days?

Signature two large= 2 weeks worth of tracking... why? If someone has a sig that is too large and it isn't changed within a day or two after a warning from a mod, just disable their ability to have a signature.

Multiple trade lists? If the user doesn't remove them, punish them for the forum that they've made the infraction in. Take away their ability to post in the trade forum if they don't get rid of the lists in a day or two. Why would you track this for a month? If they do it again after a PM'd warning to delete the threads, make them unable to post in the trade forum, but not make them unable to post everywhere. They caused problems in the trade forum, punish them in the trade forum.

This brings up another point. What good is it when you can't even see what infractions other people have? Sure, they get a nifty colored user title, but if someone has been screwing around in the trade forum with the current system, they could have already messed up twice before reaching the lowest tier of punishment, silence. I'd want to know so I could avoid trading with someone like that before they hit punishment.

The biggest problem right now is that the rules for some of these policies are not clearly defined. Some things that would fly in certain sections of the forums might not in others. Without setting at least some guidelines, it leaves much of the rule interpretation up to the moderators without the user being able to do anything about it. Either state that while in the past mods may have been lax about certain things, now they are going to be enforcing rules much more strictly, or, type up some rules that both the users and mods will have to follow and are not open to interpretation.

Mods should be enforcing the rules, not making or interpreting them, because as soon as a rule is ambiguous enough to be open to interpretation, there are going to be disagreements about what the rule means.[/QUOTE]

Mods don't even obey the expiration times. I have two identical infractions -- 2 points each, both for "Personal Attacks / Harassment", given at the same time by the same mod, one of them lasts one month, the other lasts two months.
 
[quote name='Koggit']Mods don't even obey the expiration times. I have two identical infractions -- 2 points each, both for "Personal Attacks / Harassment", given at the same time by the same mod, one of them lasts one month, the other lasts two months.[/quote]

Mods don't have any options for the expiration. They are pre-filled for each infraction type. Since you got two of the same type, the second offense had a longer expiration date. If i were to infract you on your post here and choose the same type, the expiration date would be 2.4 months.

As stated in the OP, "The points on your record will expire after a certain length of time, but the expiration times are cumulative if you receive multiple infractions during the same time period."
 
[quote name='munch']It's in your permanent record. I hope you weren't planning on going to college.[/quote]Dammit! Thanks alot Cheapy now im gonna be a bum like you.
 
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