CAGcast #387: Pass on the Season Pass

FriskyTanuki said:
Like with Ocarina of Time, they're improving the visuals, though not to anything beyond a prettier N64 look, and making all sorts of gameplay tweaks to make it a better game for fans and new players. They put a lot of work into the three Zelda remakes they've done in the last four years to make them worthwhile endeavors.
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I'm not saying they didn't put work into them. I've just already played them years ago. I don't care to play them again. They're non-starters for me and certainly not going to sell me on an entire console. It just seems like weak sauce (even more so than sequels) due to how many Nintendo has compared to the other systems and compared to non-rerelease titles.

 
Wombat, here is my educated guess as to why Kinect Party / Double Fine Happy Action Theater is not available on Xbox One:

These games were actually a byproduct of Double Fine's Sesame Street game for Kinect, "Once Upon a Monster." During development, the notoriously shitty Kinect never did what they wanted it to do. So Double Fine packaged up the bugs and sold them as your favorite Kinect game.

So, why aren't these games on Xbox One? I'm guessing that Kinect 2.0 fixed some stuff and now Kinect Party doesn't "work" because it was reliant upon Kinect 1.0 bugs. Reproducing these bugs would be extremely difficult, because the developers never fully understood why the behavior was happening in the first place; they were just happy accidents.

 
KingWulfgar said:
I'm not saying they didn't put work into them. I've just already played them years ago. I don't care to play them again. They're non-starters for me and certainly not going to sell me on an entire console. It just seems like weak sauce (even more so than sequels) due to how many Nintendo has compared to the other systems and compared to non-rerelease titles.
Click to expand...
Did I miss the memo where Nintendo's forcing people to play these remakes? If you're not interested, then move on and let those of us that are interested enjoy them. They're not making these decisions just for your tastes, but for their general audience that wanted to see Ocarina of Time 3D followed up with a Majora's Mask treatment.

Nintendo's amount of remakes/re-releases pales in comparison to the other platforms, which have dozens of them and the new consoles are getting to be the same way. Looking at Wii, Wii U, DS, and 3DS, I'm only seeing these over the past ten years:

[customspoiler='List']

3D Classics: Excitebike[SIZE=14.2857141494751px] (3DS)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.2857141494751px]3D Classics: Kid Icarus (3DS)[/SIZE]

3D Classics: Kirby's Adventure[SIZE=14.2857141494751px] (3DS)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.2857141494751px]3D Classics: Urban Champion (3DS)[/SIZE]

Donkey Kong Jungle Beat (Wii)

Kirby's Dream Collection (Wii)

Kirby Super Star Ultra (DS)

The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask 3D (3DS)

The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D (3DS)

[SIZE=14.2857141494751px]The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker HD (Wii U)[/SIZE]

Mario Power Tennis (Wii)

Pikmin (Wii)

Pokemon HeartGold and SoulSilver (DS)

Pokémon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire (3DS)

Starfox 64 3D (3DS)

Super Mario 64 (DS)

Super Mario All-Stars (Wii)

Wii Sports Club (Wii U)

[/customspoiler]

That's just six retail games for 3DS and Wii U, which isn't that much. PS3 and Xbox 360 blow this list out of the water by a large margin with all of the HD Collections and HD remakes/re-releases on PSN/XBLA and the new consoles are following that same path with big games this year like Tomb Raider, The Last of Us, Sleeping Dogs, and GTAV with Saints Row IV coming early next year.

 
FriskyTanuki said:
Did I miss the memo where Nintendo's forcing people to play these remakes? If you're not interested, then move on and let those of us that are interested enjoy them. They're not making these decisions just for your tastes, but for their general audience that wanted to see Ocarina of Time 3D followed up with a Majora's Mask treatment.
Click to expand...
Good grief, why does it always come back to "nobody's forcing you to play them" argument. That's clearly not the point of the discussion of Nintendo's failure to launch with the Wii U and you know it. I was commenting that while fun for many, paying to play 10+ year old games is not all that fun to me and it does not seem to be having the desired effect of moving consoles. I was very clear that I was speaking of my reaction. It makes them seem lazy and out of ideas to me (and a lot of other people as well apparently). Sure, it's great for the fanboys, but they're not having trouble moving consoles to the fanboys--they're having issues getting one in every living room.

And regardless of how numbers shake out, it's my impression that a lot of the Nintendo 1st party marketing has been around rerelease/rehash stuff. Anecdotal, but that's what I see. When I see a print ad or commercial, they're always touting these and I'm just not buying it. Same way I'm not running out and buying an XBO to play old Halo games, but Microsoft (and Sony) are not, from what I see, basing their entire marketing strategy on a couple 1st party IPs.

It was just a commentary on the pitfalls of placing so many eggs in your prior 1st party basket and not courting new IP. I believe this business strategy has damaged Nintendo into the Wii U era. It's not irreparable at this point, but the big N is not showing any movement away from this strategy which does not bode well for the Wii U 2 or whatever name they decide to give their next console.

 
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I really enjoyed the Nintendo discussion in this week’s show. As a Wii U owner I must put in my two cents. Let me first say that the Wii U is a great supplementalsystem for the avid gamer. As well, it is a fantastic primary system for kids up until around the tween age. But IMO, there are 4 key items Nintendo must address to make the Wii U competitive again.

Image:Hardware choices aside, the biggest misstep Nintendo made was naming the thing Wii U. By doing so, they instantly confused the majority of the general public and made the perception of their new product automatically inferior to the gaming community. Nobody wants to buy a PlayStation 3.5 or Xbox 360.5. They want a clear jump into the next generation. And while it can be argued both ways which generation the Wii U is competing in, it is clear that the Wii U is only an incremental advance over the Wii instead of a full leap to the next level. What’s done is done on the hardware front though, so it’s pointless to spend too much time debating this. While we can’t put it past Nintendo to totally redesign the Wii U hardware into yet another tweaked revision, I think it’s safe to say that it’s not going to change dramatically from a technical standpoint. At this point I’m not quite sure what Nintendo could do to change the course on its Wii U image problem, but they need to come up with something.

Price: Price is King. Being a devout CAG, I know that there is nothing that sells more than price. We’ve all bought crap games we have no desire to play simply because they were cheap. And while the Wii U is hardly crap, the $299 price point is very hard to swallow given all the other (and better) options you have at that same pricing level. Nintendo MUSTget the Wii U to $199 if they want to boost their market share. This price puts it back in the “impulse purchase” category and out of the “gaming investment” league. This is undoubtedly the most important move Nintendo needs to make to stop the bleeding.

Developer Support:Nintendo’s first party games on the Wii U are amazing. They make it easy to demo the system and are as much fun as any other first party game you’ve played on any other Nintendo system through the years. Unfortunately, you cannot sustain profitability on first party titles alone. There is not the time or money to churn out enough of them. Successful game systems are a cash cow for companies due to the royalties third parties must pay to each time they sell a copy of their game. Simply put: companies like Activision, EA and Ubisoft spend millions of dollars creating games and for each copy that is sold, Microsoft and Sony get free money for doing essentially nothing. Nintendo has enjoyed this same model for decades and has become the multinational corporation they are as a result. Unfortunately, the terrible reception the Wii U received caused third party developers to abandon the Wii U in droves. No third parties means no free money which means that Nintendo has to do it all themselves. After 4 or 5 key first party game purchases, the average Wii U owner is probably not going to buy many more games. And with only a handful of major first party IPs left to yet release on the Wii U (Zelda/Metroid) it doesn’t bode well if Nintendo plans on lasting 5-8 more years until the next generation. Nintendo has to figure out a way to woo developers to not only increase support, but to also create exclusive AAA content to drive both software and hardware sales.

Make Us An Offer We Can’t Refuse: Nintendo is already sitting on the answer to most of the Wii U’s sales problems – Their Historic Game Catalog. It baffles me that I have purchased Super Mario Bros. 3 at least 4 different times across Nintendo’s various systems. While this nickel and diming may be profitable, Nintendo has slowly alienated me from purchasing anything classic because I know it won’t get to stay with me and I will wind up having to buy it again. At a minimum, they need to implement a modern cross-buy purchase model. If Nintendo wants to know the secret of how to make the Wii U a home run, here it is: Let go of the reins on your classic catalog! Would you buy a Wii U (even at $299) if Nintendo made their entire back catalog available to play for free? I bet you would. Even if it was limited to say 30 minutes per play session, it would still be incredible. In the age of PlayStation Plus and Xbox Live Games with Gold, consumers expect more freebies for their money. Even if Nintendo just threw us a meager bone and gave one free NES game a month, it would be something. But if they really wanted to drop the Megaton, they need to open up the full catalog. Heck, they could even make it subscription based. I’d drop $50-100 a year to get full, unrestricted access to that catalog. Wouldn’t you? I would love to see some statistics on how much revenue they make off virtual console purchases versus how much they make off selling consoles and subsequently full retail games. It could be that the virtual console has become a replacement cash cow for them and that we will never see them open up the catalog in any other fashion. But can you imagine the headlines if they did? It would really stir things up and instantly push the Wii U to the top in terms of value.

To Cheapy, Shipwreck & Wombat:Truth be told, the only reason I bought a Wii U was for my kids who love Mario and were begging to play the new games. I initially had all of the same grievances that you guys talk about on the show. But once I spent some time actually playing the games, my opinion changed. While the new gamepad is totally unnecessary and the system doesn’t demo as impressively or blow people out of the water like the PS4 or XB1, I’ve probably had more actual fun (especially with family) playing the Wii U than the others. That is a testament to Nintendo’s superb first party development. While I don’t expect you guys (or anyone else) to put the Wii U before the other consoles, I still am disappointed week after week that it is only given minimal lip service in the show. Ship is the only bonafide Wii U owner and even he admits to purchasing, but not actually playing games on it. I love the CAGCast because you get straight talk and unfiltered opinion and information on the gaming world. But something is wrong when there is consistently more talk about Amazon Fire TV and Ship’s latest vintage eBay purchases than one of the major consoles of this generation. There is no doubt that the Wii U is number three, but damn guys, give it a chance! At the very least just so you can keep us listeners informed. You may not realize it but I (and probably many others) give your reviews, opinions and recommendations more weight than any other gaming site out there. You guys aren’t getting paid for your comments. You are the same age as me and like me have experienced every gaming generation and as a result have a complete historical perspective (as opposed to a reviewer who was born in 1990). You keep it real and call a spade a spade. The CAG community loves you guys for it. But the way you continue to be so dismissive of the Wii U (without even playing it) and toss it in the closet next to the Kinect is disheartening especially since it is finally starting to show real signs of life with its game library. If the CAG community kickstarted a free Wii U to Cheapy and Wombat would you guys actually play it once in a while and have more discussion about it on the show? ‘Cause you know we loyal CAGs will totally make that happen if you say so. In the end I love hearing all of your opinions on Sony and Microsoft, I just wish we could hear more meaningful Nintendo discussion as well.

Thanks for listening.
 
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Great show guys! You should always open with one of my show feedback - I like that a lot! About Nintendo - it'd be nice to have someone on CAG with enthusiasm for them - but don't force it either. I'm just happy that you guys are mostly over your PC gaming phase.
 
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[quote name="Emiroo" post="12251143" timestamp="1416365440"]I really enjoyed the Nintendo discussion in this week’s show. As a Wii U owner I must put in my two cents. Let me first say that the Wii U is a great supplemental system for the avid gamer. As well, it is a fantastic primary system for kids up until around the tween age. But IMO, there are 4 key items Nintendo must address to make the Wii U competitive again.

Image: Hardware choices aside, the biggest misstep Nintendo made was naming the thing Wii U. By doing so, they instantly confused the majority of the general public and made the perception of their new product automatically inferior to the gaming community. Nobody wants to buy a PlayStation 3.5 or Xbox 360.5. They want a clear jump into the next generation. And while it can be argued both ways which generation the Wii U is competing in, it is clear that the Wii U is only an incremental advance over the Wii instead of a full leap to the next level. What’s done is done on the hardware front though, so it’s pointless to spend too much time debating this. While we can’t put it past Nintendo to totally redesign the Wii U hardware into yet another tweaked revision, I think it’s safe to say that it’s not going to change dramatically from a technical standpoint. At this point I’m not quite sure what Nintendo could do to change the course on its Wii U image problem, but they need to come up with something.

Price: Price is King. Being a devout CAG, I know that there is nothing that sells more than price. We’ve all bought crap games we have no desire to play simply because they were cheap. And while the Wii U is hardly crap, the $299 price point is very hard to swallow given all the other (and better) options you have at that same pricing level. Nintendo MUST get the Wii U to $199 if they want to boost their market share. This price puts it back in the “impulse purchase” category and out of the “gaming investment” league. This is undoubtedly the most important move Nintendo needs to make to stop the bleeding.

Developer Support: Nintendo’s first party games on the Wii U are amazing. They make it easy to demo the system and are as much fun as any other first party game you’ve played on any other Nintendo system through the years. Unfortunately, you cannot sustain profitability on first party titles alone. There is not the time or money to churn out enough of them. Successful game systems are a cash cow for companies due to the royalties third parties must pay to each time they sell a copy of their game. Simply put: companies like Activision, EA and Ubisoft spend millions of dollars creating games and for each copy that is sold, Microsoft and Sony get free money for doing essentially nothing. Nintendo has enjoyed this same model for decades and has become the multinational corporation they are as a result. Unfortunately, the terrible reception the Wii U received caused third party developers to abandon the Wii U in droves. No third parties means no free money which means that Nintendo has to do it all themselves. After 4 or 5 key first party game purchases, the average Wii U owner is probably not going to buy many more games. And with only a handful of major first party IPs left to yet release on the Wii U (Zelda/Metroid) it doesn’t bode well if Nintendo plans on lasting 5-8 more years until the next generation. Nintendo has to figure out a way to woo developers to not only increase support, but to also create exclusive AAA content to drive both software and hardware sales.

Make Us An Offer We Can’t Refuse: Nintendo is already sitting on the answer to most of the Wii U’s sales problems – Their Historic Game Catalog. It baffles me that I have purchased Super Mario Bros. 3 at least 4 different times across Nintendo’s various systems. While this nickel and diming may be profitable, Nintendo has slowly alienated me from purchasing anything classic because I know it won’t get to stay with me and I will wind up having to buy it again. At a minimum, they need to implement a modern cross-buy purchase model. If Nintendo wants to know the secret of how to make the Wii U a home run, here it is: Let go of the reins on your classic catalog! Would you buy a Wii U (even at $299) if Nintendo made their entire back catalog available to play for free? I bet you would. Even if it was limited to say 30 minutes per play session, it would still be incredible. In the age of PlayStation Plus and Xbox Live Games with Gold, consumers expect more freebies for their money. Even if Nintendo just threw us a meager bone and gave one free NES game a month, it would be something. But if they really wanted to drop the Megaton, they need to open up the full catalog. Heck, they could even make it subscription based. I’d drop $50-100 a year to get full, unrestricted access to that catalog. Wouldn’t you? I would love to see some statistics on how much revenue they make off virtual console purchases versus how much they make off selling consoles and subsequently full retail games. It could be that the virtual console has become a replacement cash cow for them and that we will never see them open up the catalog in any other fashion. But can you imagine the headlines if they did? It would really stir things up and instantly push the Wii U to the top in terms of value.

To Cheapy, Shipwreck & Wombat: Truth be told, the only reason I bought a Wii U was for my kids who love Mario and were begging to play the new games. I initially had all of the same grievances that you guys talk about on the show. But once I spent some time actually playing the games, my opinion changed. While the new gamepad is totally unnecessary and the system doesn’t demo as impressively or blow people out of the water like the PS4 or XB1, I’ve probably had more actual fun (especially with family) playing the Wii U than the others. That is a testament to Nintendo’s superb first party development. While I don’t expect you guys (or anyone else) to put the Wii U before the other consoles, I still am disappointed week after week that it is only given minimal lip service in the show. Ship is the only bonafide Wii U owner and even he admits to purchasing, but not actually playing games on it. I love the CAGCast because you get straight talk and unfiltered opinion and information on the gaming world. But something is wrong when there is consistently more talk about Amazon Fire TV and Ship’s latest vintage eBay purchases than one of the major consoles of this generation. There is no doubt that the Wii U is number three, but damn guys, give it a chance! At the very least just so you can keep us listeners informed. You may not realize it but I (and probably many others) give your reviews, opinions and recommendations more weight than any other gaming site out there. You guys aren’t getting paid for your comments. You are the same age as me and have experienced every gaming generation and as a result have a complete historical perspective (as opposed to a reviewer who was born in 1990). You keep it real and call a spade a spade. The CAG community loves you guys for it. But the way you continue to be so dismissive of the Wii U (without even playing it) and toss it in the closet next to the Kinect is disheartening especially since it is finally starting to show real signs of life with its game library. If the CAG community kickstarted a free Wii U to Cheapy and Wombat would you guys actually play it once in a while and have more discussion about it on the show? ‘Cause you know we loyal CAGs will totally make that happen if you say so. In the end I love hearing all of your opinions on Sony and Microsoft, I just wish we could hear more meaningful Nintendo discussion as well.
Thanks for listening.[/quote]

I double-dog dare Wombat to read this in it's entirety on the next show.
 
KingWulfgar said:
Good grief, why does it always come back to "nobody's forcing you to play them" argument. That's clearly not the point of the discussion of Nintendo's failure to launch with the Wii U and you know it. I was commenting that while fun for many, paying to play 10+ year old games is not all that fun to me and it does not seem to be having the desired effect of moving consoles. I was very clear that I was speaking of my reaction. It makes them seem lazy and out of ideas to me (and a lot of other people as well apparently). Sure, it's great for the fanboys, but they're not having trouble moving consoles to the fanboys--they're having issues getting one in every living room.

And regardless of how numbers shake out, it's my impression that a lot of the Nintendo 1st party marketing has been around rerelease/rehash stuff. Anecdotal, but that's what I see. When I see a print ad or commercial, they're always touting these and I'm just not buying it. Same way I'm not running out and buying an XBO to play old Halo games, but Microsoft (and Sony) are not, from what I see, basing their entire marketing strategy on a couple 1st party IPs.

It was just a commentary on the pitfalls of placing so many eggs in your prior 1st party basket and not courting new IP. I believe this business strategy has damaged Nintendo into the Wii U era. It's not irreparable at this point, but the big N is not showing any movement away from this strategy which does not bode well for the Wii U 2 or whatever name they decide to give their next console.
Click to expand...
"The discussion of Nintendo's failure to launch with the Wii U"? When was this ever a part of what I was talking about? My point was not understanding why announcing Majora's Mask 3D for 3DS was such a bad move when many 3DS owners have been asking for it since Ocarina of Time 3D released a few years ago. Nowhere was I looking to discuss why the systems aren't selling or anything like that, so please take your baggage elsewhere. This discussion is about the negative response to Nintendo's few remakes compared to the positive response to HD collections and remakes on Sony and Microsoft consoles that seems completely hypocritical.

 
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