Capital Punishment

[quote name='camoor']Speaking as a bleeding-heart liberal, I'm all for the death penalty.

It's the theocratic xians that are against the death penalty. Your posts are sloppy and worthless - at the very least you could spend some time getting your stereotypes in order ffs.[/QUOTE]

I will continue to post my worthless posts as I see fit, the same as you apparently, since they are worthless as well. :applause:
 
[quote name='Jabrim']I will continue to post my worthless posts as I see fit, the same as you apparently, since they are worthless as well. :applause:[/QUOTE]

Of course they are - we are arguing about politics on a cheap videogame site.

As you work with criminals I am not surprised that you support the death penalty. But don't make the mistake of assuming that just because someone cares about the poor, the disenfranchised, and the wrongly accused that they care about stone-cold criminals. Liberalism isn't so easily dismissed.

And that's my problem with your post, you lazilly interject a false corallary to political viewpoints. It's the kind of sloppy posting that can derail a good on-point debate.
 
The death penalty doesn't deter, costs more and we're the only western nation still using it.

There is also the theory of a brutalization effect, or murder rates going up in places where executions occur.

Life in prison is fine though... it is cheaper and allows for DNA to clear innocent convicts.
 
[quote name='camoor']Of course they are - we are arguing about politics on a cheap videogame site.

As you work with criminals I am not surprised that you support the death penalty. But don't make the mistake of assuming that just because someone cares about the poor, the disenfranchised, and the wrongly accused that they care about stone-cold criminals. Liberalism isn't so easily dismissed.

And that's my problem with your post, you lazilly interject a false corallary to political viewpoints. It's the kind of sloppy posting that can derail a good on-point debate.[/QUOTE]

I'll agree where I labeled people misappropriately, but it was not you precisely. I do not think all criminals need to be put to death either, but if the crime fits it yes and if they are convicted and exhaust their appeals and there is no evidence of the conviction being overturned, execute them and stop wasting money.
 
[quote name='dohdough']http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

http://www.prisonexp.org/

You're just doing your job of course...:roll:[/QUOTE]

Ahh yes, becuase one study featuring twenty-five subjects is equal to the entierty of the corrections system. Because one black guy gets denied a loan, all banks are high-fiving each other over institutional racism. Because one black guy gets denied a job, all employers are secretly blowing each other over the joys of keeping the race down.
Venn Diagram, not a part of your reality very much is it?

Jabrim may be a dick, or he might just be tired and cranky. But to automatically assume that he beats prisoners is on the same level of Tea Party assumptions that you're just out to collect a govt check because you like to sleep past 10am.
Oh yeah, black guy can't have any prejudice/racially biased assumptions/racist attitudes/etc... because the man is keeping him down so it's justified. Sanctimonious prick.
 
[quote name='nasum']Ahh yes, becuase one study featuring twenty-five subjects is equal to the entierty of the corrections system. Because one black guy gets denied a loan, all banks are high-fiving each other over institutional racism. Because one black guy gets denied a job, all employers are secretly blowing each other over the joys of keeping the race down.
Venn Diagram, not a part of your reality very much is it?

Jabrim may be a dick, or he might just be tired and cranky. But to automatically assume that he beats prisoners is on the same level of Tea Party assumptions that you're just out to collect a govt check because you like to sleep past 10am.
Oh yeah, black guy can't have any prejudice/racially biased assumptions/racist attitudes/etc... because the man is keeping him down so it's justified. Sanctimonious prick.[/QUOTE]

No, I am a dick but, I don't beat people.
 
[quote name='Jabrim']I work in a county jail which holds around 1400 to 1800 inmates at any given time, and you compare my job to Abu Ghraib. They are not like in any way other than detaining people.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Jabrim']No, I am a dick but, I don't beat people.[/QUOTE]

Not the point.

I know the difference between prison and jail. I know the difference between security levels, but I'm not that naive that there aren't forms of torture in every "correctional" facility. The point is that no matter how you cut it, there's a dynamic that plays out between guard and prisoner that is a tool used to keep prisoners "docile," but ultimately leads to conflict. Violent at that.

You said that it's not your job to rehabilitate the prisoners you oversee. I can see how you'd come to that conclusion: you're just a cog in the machine. But that doesn't mean that you can't figure where you lie in the grand scheme of things. Seems like you're more interested in being as much of a "sanctimonious prick" as I am.
 
[quote name='nasum']Ahh yes, becuase one study featuring twenty-five subjects is equal to the entierty of the corrections system. Because one black guy gets denied a loan, all banks are high-fiving each other over institutional racism. Because one black guy gets denied a job, all employers are secretly blowing each other over the joys of keeping the race down.
Venn Diagram, not a part of your reality very much is it?[/quote]
I actually used the study as an example of the psychological effects of people in those power dynamics.

What you're describing isn't institutional racism. It's just plain racism. Micro and macro doesn't mean much to you does it.

Jabrim may be a dick, or he might just be tired and cranky. But to automatically assume that he beats prisoners is on the same level of Tea Party assumptions that you're just out to collect a govt check because you like to sleep past 10am.
Oh yeah, black guy can't have any prejudice/racially biased assumptions/racist attitudes/etc... because the man is keeping him down so it's justified. Sanctimonious prick.
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So Jabrim acts sanctimonious and I act sanctimonious, yet you only call me sanctimonious and defend him. Good job Mr Equality.
 
I never asked anyone to defend me, I know I am a prick. I support the death penalty and more than likely always will, I doubt my stance will ever change.
 
[quote name='Jabrim']I'll agree where I labeled people misappropriately, but it was not you precisely. I do not think all criminals need to be put to death either, but if the crime fits it yes and if they are convicted and exhaust their appeals and there is no evidence of the conviction being overturned, execute them and stop wasting money.[/QUOTE]

I tend to see of it more as an egregious crimes against humanity thing.

I mean, some crimes are so outrageous that the only appropriate response is the death penalty. I'm talking about real sickos.
 
So if it were a drug deal gone bad or say a robbery where several people were killed, even though it wasn't sick, don't you think that would warrant the death penalty being on the table?
 
I was kind of poking fun at him actually... Though yes, you're sanctimonious in your prickage, he's just prickish that I've seen so far. I may be proven wrong.

Isn't the guard/prisoner dynamic intentionally setup such that it's abusive? I mean, not abusive in terms of punching and such but in terms of "we're taking power away from you because you've proven that you can't make good decisions with it." This is of course after the trial and what not. At that point, society has deemed that you should have a time-out as punishment. During that time you get to think about what you've done and you have access to tools that will help you rejoin society. If you're docile and supplicating, then you get out on good behavior (reward). If you're only out on parole then you have to show that you've learned a better way or you go back (punishment).
Could the tools available be better? Of course. Where do they come from and at what cost? Shareholders aren't terribly interested in reducing the bottom line you know... We can all agree that profit prisons are probably the worst thing that has ever happened and act as a detriment to correction/rehabilitation. There's no purpose in rehabilitation at that point because it's better for the bottom line to have overcrowding (more profit per square foot!) , a lack of oversight in terms of dignified treatment, etc... Then again, there be some crazy mofo's out there that just shouldn't be in society for any reason whatsoever. Is it better to have them stuck in the building with people who have a chance at rehabilitation or to just kill 'em off for the good of mankind so that they don't drag someone else down their path of BS?

RE: Individual vs Institutional Racism
Man, you're really good at picking and choosing which one you want to use and how to apply it. By that statement you can call someone racist and never have to bother proving guilt. You can just blame it on the system if the person isn't, or get a double win if it's because the person really is a racist prick!
 
[quote name='nasum']I was kind of poking fun at him actually... Though yes, you're sanctimonious in your prickage, he's just prickish that I've seen so far. I may be proven wrong.

Isn't the guard/prisoner dynamic intentionally setup such that it's abusive? I mean, not abusive in terms of punching and such but in terms of "we're taking power away from you because you've proven that you can't make good decisions with it." This is of course after the trial and what not. At that point, society has deemed that you should have a time-out as punishment. During that time you get to think about what you've done and you have access to tools that will help you rejoin society. If you're docile and supplicating, then you get out on good behavior (reward). If you're only out on parole then you have to show that you've learned a better way or you go back (punishment).
Could the tools available be better? Of course. Where do they come from and at what cost? Shareholders aren't terribly interested in reducing the bottom line you know... We can all agree that profit prisons are probably the worst thing that has ever happened and act as a detriment to correction/rehabilitation. There's no purpose in rehabilitation at that point because it's better for the bottom line to have overcrowding (more profit per square foot!) , a lack of oversight in terms of dignified treatment, etc... Then again, there be some crazy mofo's out there that just shouldn't be in society for any reason whatsoever. Is it better to have them stuck in the building with people who have a chance at rehabilitation or to just kill 'em off for the good of mankind so that they don't drag someone else down their path of BS?

RE: Individual vs Institutional Racism
Man, you're really good at picking and choosing which one you want to use and how to apply it. By that statement you can call someone racist and never have to bother proving guilt. You can just blame it on the system if the person isn't, or get a double win if it's because the person really is a racist prick![/QUOTE]

It is always interesting to see someone's argument or point go South, and the first thing that is usually mentioned is racism.
 
You know, there was a time when I would have waded into this and been fighting with Jabrim as much if not more than dohdough. I just have it anymore. It's such a stupid argument to even have that I'm not getting involved. Carry on.
 
[quote name='Clak']You know, there was a time when I would have waded into this and been fighting with Jabrim as much if not more than dohdough. I just have it anymore. It's such a stupid argument to even have that I'm not getting involved. Carry on.[/QUOTE]

pardon my miserable memory for names, but are you one of the guys that works in the field? I remember that there was a thread with two or three of you that worked in different area and had an interesting compare/contrast thing going.

Take the DP off the table (unless we're talking about Audrey Hollander of course, though that's different...). What is the point of prison? I mean yeah, I simplified it so that it can be expanded upon (a fine line between punishment and rehabilitation) but really what more is there to it? Again, by design it's not a comfortable environment. Nor should it be.
 
No I work in IT. I just can't take these types of arguments anymore. They don't produce anything worthwhile and usually devolve into everyone hurling insults at each other. Go do something productive instead of arguing here.
 
[quote name='nasum']RE: Individual vs Institutional Racism
Man, you're really good at picking and choosing which one you want to use and how to apply it. By that statement you can call someone racist and never have to bother proving guilt. You can just blame it on the system if the person isn't, or get a double win if it's because the person really is a racist prick![/QUOTE]
Everyone has biases built into them due to the environment be it prejudice, pacificism, racism, aggression, etc. The trick is to recognize what they are, learn where they come from, and figure out its effects on broader society.

As a male, I have male privilege in society that women don't. I am, by design of the patriarchal culture that we live in, sexist. It's only by recognizing the sexist elements within me, that I can correct my behavior to be less sexist. It's not driven by guilt, it's all about being equitable.
 
[quote name='Jabrim']It is always interesting to see someone's argument or point go South, and the first thing that is usually mentioned is racism.[/QUOTE]
Where did my argument go south? Just because you say it, doesn't make it so. The only thing you're doing is evading my points.

As far as racism goes, you're one to talk considering you get a front-row seat to the lack of fairness in sentencing that are split along racial lines. If racism wasn't a huge factor in the prison system both as a tool of control and harsher punishments, then you'd have a point. Otherwise, you're just blowing smoke out of your ass. Or maybe you should stick to posts like: "those dum lieberals be acting likes pussies!!!" and be done with it.
 
[quote name='dohdough']Everyone has biases built into them due to the environment be it prejudice, pacificism, racism, aggression, etc. The trick is to recognize what they are, learn where they come from, and figure out its effects on broader society.

As a male, I have male privilege in society that women don't. I am, by design of the patriarchal culture that we live in, sexist. It's only by recognizing the sexist elements within me, that I can correct my behavior to be less sexist. It's not driven by guilt, it's all about being equitable.[/QUOTE]

Your second paragraph there, I'm almost with you. Follow me out on a limb here if you would please. Does that sexism imply "the little things" (throwing like a girl, WNBA is silly, girls can't lift heavy things, bad drivers, can't change a tire, etc...) or the overt things (glass ceiling, blatant sexual harrasment in the office, barefoot in the kitchen and pregnant is the only place to be, etc...) or some combination of both?

If it is some combinatino of both, isn't there a better term that isn't so all encompassing? Because really, saying that someone throws like a girl and denying an actual girl a promotion or the job entirely is very different.

Also, and I think if you can agree to this you and I might have some sort of breakthrough here:
It's only by recognizing the sexist elements within me, that I can correct my behavior to be less sexist. It's not driven by guilt, it's all about being equitable.
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So, are you still sexist if you recognize that gener comes into play in your interactions, but don't base your actions upon the difference of gender? That, to me, is quite similar to judging a person by the content of their character and not by the colour of their skin (or for our example here, if you're an innie or an outtie in terms of genitalia). I've heard that before somewhere, smart dude said it. That's how I try to go about my day. Doesn't that portray the desire to be equitable?
 
[quote name='dohdough']Crime doesn't happen because criminals are born criminals. Crime is a symptom of inequities in society. And lets say that the person that murdered your wife and kids has a clinical mental disorder that went untreated (which is usually the case), is it also not societies responsisbility to recognize those issues BEFORE someone goes on a murderous rampage?

This added to the fact that black males are disproportionately represented on death row? No, the death penalty and the system that allows it is fucked no matter how you try to put it.

Convictions are not about actual guilt or innocence of a crime: it's about whether a jury of your "peers" decide you're guilty or not guilty; not innocent.[/QUOTE]

I didn't say anybody was born a criminal. I said a guy who murders and fucks kids should be put to death. I don't care if they were poor, rich, or French Canadian. It would be great if we could go all Minority Report on people and prevent crimes from happening, but some people, given the opportunity will choose crime over not choosing crime. That doesn't make me have sympathy for them or say social and racial inequeties drove them to mass murder. Why did Jeffrey Dahmer decide to molest, kill, and eat boys? Not really sure, but the fact that inmates had the chance to kill him before the State could works for me.

And as far as the jury of your peers, sure, those biases will always be a problem, and I'm even willing to say I think it will disproportionately affect black people, but again, I'm not talking about these gray areas where someone says maybe this guy did, perhaps kill and eat a family of four. We can pick and choose when we invoke capital punishment. If it's a rock solid case, and the guy is a violent criminal/violent sexual criminal, let me strap him into the chair. He can't die quick enough as far as I'm concerned.
 
[quote name='nasum']Your second paragraph there, I'm almost with you. Follow me out on a limb here if you would please. Does that sexism imply "the little things" (throwing like a girl, WNBA is silly, girls can't lift heavy things, bad drivers, can't change a tire, etc...) or the overt things (glass ceiling, blatant sexual harrasment in the office, barefoot in the kitchen and pregnant is the only place to be, etc...) or some combination of both?[/QUOTE]
Stereotypes aren't as benign as you think they are either. They serve to reinforce the bigger things like the glass ceiling, sexual harassment, etc. They are not seperate things; they work in conjunction with eachother to create a system of oppression based on sex.

If it is some combinatino of both, isn't there a better term that isn't so all encompassing? Because really, saying that someone throws like a girl and denying an actual girl a promotion or the job entirely is very different.
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They're not as different as you think they are. They are both based on the perception of inherent inferiority of females while seeking to maintain the superiority of males. There's more than one way to oppress someone. Your examples still fall under the umbrella of sexism. You can narrow it down to individual acts of sexism or institutional sexism, but its still sexism.

Also, and I think if you can agree to this you and I might have some sort of breakthrough here:


So, are you still sexist if you recognize that gener comes into play in your interactions, but don't base your actions upon the difference of gender? That, to me, is quite similar to judging a person by the content of their character and not by the colour of their skin (or for our example here, if you're an innie or an outtie in terms of genitalia). I've heard that before somewhere, smart dude said it. That's how I try to go about my day. Doesn't that portray the desire to be equitable?
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Not quite. What you're saying is something close to colorblindess. The goal isn't to start from scratch and ignore all of the bad shit that came before. It doesn't change previous injustices. Colorblindness doesn't work because it ignores the the unique experiences and challenges that person faced/faces. Colorblindness is Racism 2.0. For an extreme example, you're not going to ask someone confined to a wheelchair to walk up a flight of stairs. It's ok to be different and diversity is good. The problem is when different means inferior.
 
[quote name='berzirk']I didn't say anybody was born a criminal. I said a guy who murders and fucks kids should be put to death. I don't care if they were poor, rich, or French Canadian. It would be great if we could go all Minority Report on people and prevent crimes from happening, but some people, given the opportunity will choose crime over not choosing crime. That doesn't make me have sympathy for them or say social and racial inequeties drove them to mass murder. Why did Jeffrey Dahmer decide to molest, kill, and eat boys? Not really sure, but the fact that inmates had the chance to kill him before the State could works for me.[/quote]
The "why" is just as important as the "what." We shouldn't summarily execute someone just because they killed someone. If that were the case, we wouldn't have manslaughter on the books. You can ignore the triggers of racism or socio-economic factors if you want, but that doesn't make them unimportant.

Dahmer exhibited strange behavior as a child and was practically a life-long alcoholic. If I remember correctly, he also lived in a strict religious household. I'm not saying that this excuses him, but it's not as clear cut as he did those things just because. I'm also not saying that he shouldjust be free to roam with those urges. Life inprisonment is just as effective and it doesn't need to be of the brutal type that we have now.

And as far as the jury of your peers, sure, those biases will always be a problem, and I'm even willing to say I think it will disproportionately affect black people, but again, I'm not talking about these gray areas where someone says maybe this guy did, perhaps kill and eat a family of four. We can pick and choose when we invoke capital punishment. If it's a rock solid case, and the guy is a violent criminal/violent sexual criminal, let me strap him into the chair. He can't die quick enough as far as I'm concerned.
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We already do pick and choose. Rock-solid today does not mean rock solid tomorrow. If we can't ensure that convictions are 100% accurate, why are we allowed to end the existance of someone.
 
[quote name='Jabrim']So if it were a drug deal gone bad or say a robbery where several people were killed, even though it wasn't sick, don't you think that would warrant the death penalty being on the table?[/QUOTE]

Good question and I don't profess to have all the answers. Honestly if it were up to me I'd probably keep the death penalty in the back pocket for the real sickos.
 
well then it's just fun!

Ok, dohdough, I swear I'm not trying to be a dick with this question; do you consider race to be a handicap? I know I'm playing off of that wheelchair example a bit. But it seems like a justifiable question given some of your statements.
 
[quote name='nasum']well then it's just fun!

Ok, dohdough, I swear I'm not trying to be a dick with this question; do you consider race to be a handicap? I know I'm playing off of that wheelchair example a bit. But it seems like a justifiable question given some of your statements.[/QUOTE]

You are wasting your time nasum.
 
[quote name='nasum']well then it's just fun!

Ok, dohdough, I swear I'm not trying to be a dick with this question; do you consider race to be a handicap? I know I'm playing off of that wheelchair example a bit. But it seems like a justifiable question given some of your statements.[/QUOTE]

LOADED QUESTION ALERT!!!

Honestly, it depends on how you mean "handicap."

For simplicities sake, I will say yes. There's nothing genetically or physically debilitating about it and it's not something that one does to one's self; it's the added burden and roadblacks that society throws on you for not being white. It's a sign of inequality.

And I want to be clear that I'm talking just about the US.
 
[quote name='camoor']Speaking as a bleeding-heart liberal, I'm all for the death penalty.

It's the theocratic xians that are against the death penalty. Your posts are sloppy and worthless - at the very least you could spend some time getting your stereotypes in order ffs.[/QUOTE]

Add me to the list of someone who is not a theocratic xian who opposes the death penalty...

[quote name='nasum']Ahh yes, becuase one study featuring twenty-five subjects is equal to the entierty of the corrections system. Because one black guy gets denied a loan, all banks are high-fiving each other over institutional racism. Because one black guy gets denied a job, all employers are secretly blowing each other over the joys of keeping the race down.
Venn Diagram, not a part of your reality very much is it?

Jabrim may be a dick, or he might just be tired and cranky. But to automatically assume that he beats prisoners is on the same level of Tea Party assumptions that you're just out to collect a govt check because you like to sleep past 10am.
Oh yeah, black guy can't have any prejudice/racially biased assumptions/racist attitudes/etc... because the man is keeping him down so it's justified. Sanctimonious prick.[/QUOTE]

I don't think he was suggesting Jabrim beats prisoners. Rather that, as a prison guard, his views are conditioned because he is a prison guard. At least that's how I see it. As a prison guard his actions can go two ways, try to be civil, offer fair treatment, and help inmates reform their views, or treat them unkindly and keep them miserable/angry. I use the term prison guard, but it applies to anyone in direct contact/some form of control regarding prisoners.

That's the ultimate thing to pick up from the Stanford Experiment. Our views and often our actions flow from the position we hold and us trying to assimilate, often at the expense of other people. If that experiment was repeated, we would still see views/actions flow from the position people hold, hence their social identities. It wouldn't always result in violence.
 
[quote name='dohdough']LOADED QUESTION ALERT!!!

Honestly, it depends on how you mean "handicap."

For simplicities sake, I will say yes. There's nothing genetically or physically debilitating about it and it's not something that one does to one's self; it's the added burden and roadblacks that society throws on you for not being white. It's a sign of inequality.

And I want to be clear that I'm talking just about the US.[/QUOTE]

You are so ignorant it is saddening. Only in the U.S. does your burdens and roadblocks occur to anyone not being white, no where else in the world is their racism or oppression? I assume then given by most of your posts and your stance on everything, you yourself are a minority?
 
[quote name='Jabrim']You are so ignorant it is saddening. Only in the U.S. does your burdens and roadblocks occur to anyone not being white, no where else in the world is their racism or oppression? I assume then given by most of your posts and your stance on everything, you yourself are a minority?[/QUOTE]
HURRR HUURRR...LIBRULS R SO DUM:roll:

And just because I like using you as a punching bag:
What is so ignorant about what I'm saying. Did I say that there isn't racism and oppression ouside the US? So you automatically assume that I'm a person of color because I don't support the white hegemony? Put those two brain cells together and lets see what you come up with. Ready. Set. GO!
 
[quote name='Cerebral_One']Are you okay with those odds as long as it's not you or someone you care about? We shouldn't be okay with the odds of even 1 single innocent person in prison/put to death. Every person deserves to have a life that is not destroyed through carelessness, ignorance, being seen as a #, or being lost within what we call "law".



Regarding the issue with the family that was attacked, some of that was due to inequality. I hate to say it, but they were attacked because they were rich. Doesn't mean people who pursue helping others by becoming a doctor is wrong, or that the amount they're paid is wrong, but demonstrates they can be a target for those with no money, who do what they do due to that and their other life circumstances.

As long as their is inequality and wages that don't sustain people when you mix this in with some of the circumstances of people's lives, you will see people commit such crimes. I'm not saying it's all about money, but that is something that can be changed more easily than the circumstances of life, and would go a long way to prevent such circumstances from occurring and/or turning people bad.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='dohdough']Beat any prisoners lately?


Kinda like slavery? Which creates it's own problems as labor is sold virtually without restrictions? Or how about we have them pick cotton? Guess what, this stuff already happens.


If we treat people like animals and make sure that they don't have any chance at any kind of life, what do you expect to happen?


For some strange reason, I don't think rehabilitation is something you're concerned with.[/QUOTE]

The way I see it, they are being fed, clothed, and housed at the expense of the taxpayer for crimes against them such as murder, rape, and assault, should their "debt to society" only be paid in time? Do you have problems with prisoners who clean garbage on the highways? Is it unethical for prisoners to have to do something to recoup the cost of keeping them incarcerated? Do you wish you could add some pizaz to prisons and have weekly themes so prisoners have something to look forward to?

I see no problems with making a prisoner work an 8 hour day for a tiny wage. The dollar or whatever they get when they work now. If you think letting them sleep and do nothing is a valuable skill and a fair punishment for killing people's families than you are naive. If you want to bring up race than direct your mock outrage at the law enforcement and courts who conspire to arrest minorities for no reason and fabricate evidence for thousands and thousands of "innocent" prisoners targeted specifically because of the color of their skin. Or address the real problem that effects those in inner cities. We should address why they are so riddled with crime, how it decreases home values, how the crime drives away businesses who employ the people who live there, and the lovely politicans who keep them down with promises and entitlements instead of offering evil tax incentives and other goodies in order to bring back businesses and make the people respect their communities enough to not put up with drug dealers and other vermin. And bolstering the schools to teach them skills so that they can get ahead. I'm not saying it's going to be easy, every generation has to struggle and maybe drive a beater car or not go on vacations, but excusing criminals because they had it "unfair" is not the way to cure the problem.
 
[quote name='jputahraptor']The way I see it, they are being fed, clothed, and housed at the expense of the taxpayer for crimes against them such as murder, rape, and assault, should their "debt to society" only be paid in time? Do you have problems with prisoners who clean garbage on the highways? Is it unethical for prisoners to have to do something to recoup the cost of keeping them incarcerated? Do you wish you could add some pizaz to prisons and have weekly themes so prisoners have something to look forward to?

I see no problems with making a prisoner work an 8 hour day for a tiny wage. The dollar or whatever they get when they work now. If you think letting them sleep and do nothing is a valuable skill and a fair punishment for killing people's families than you are naive. If you want to bring up race than direct your mock outrage at the law enforcement and courts who conspire to arrest minorities for no reason and fabricate evidence for thousands and thousands of "innocent" prisoners targeted specifically because of the color of their skin. Or address the real problem that effects those in inner cities. We should address why they are so riddled with crime, how it decreases home values, how the crime drives away businesses who employ the people who live there, and the lovely politicans who keep them down with promises and entitlements instead of offering evil tax incentives and other goodies in order to bring back businesses and make the people respect their communities enough to not put up with drug dealers and other vermin. And bolstering the schools to teach them skills so that they can get ahead. I'm not saying it's going to be easy, every generation has to struggle and maybe drive a beater car or not go on vacations, but excusing criminals because they had it "unfair" is not the way to cure the problem.[/QUOTE]

Standing ovation! :applause:
 
[quote name='jputahraptor']The way I see it, they are being fed, clothed, and housed at the expense of the taxpayer for crimes against them such as murder, rape, and assault, should their "debt to society" only be paid in time? Do you have problems with prisoners who clean garbage on the highways? Is it unethical for prisoners to have to do something to recoup the cost of keeping them incarcerated? Do you wish you could add some pizaz to prisons and have weekly themes so prisoners have something to look forward to?[/quote]
Wow, I like totally addressed most of this crap in another post. Thanks for paying attention!

I see no problems with making a prisoner work an 8 hour day for a tiny wage. The dollar or whatever they get when they work now.
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You know what happens when prison labor is used? It depresses the wages of people that would otherwise do that work. Do you think you'd get work doing construction or manufacturing living next to a prison that sells its labor? Of course your answer to that is to just move.

If you think letting them sleep and do nothing is a valuable skill and a fair punishment for killing people's families than you are naive.
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Holy shit. I never realized that everyone that's incarcerated right now is a violent offender that has commited multiple murders of family units. You're right. I am so naive.

If you want to bring up race than direct your mock outrage at the law enforcement and courts who conspire to arrest minorities for no reason and fabricate evidence for thousands and thousands of "innocent" prisoners targeted specifically because of the color of their skin.
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Blowjobs and anal sex are still considered crimes in some states. I guess all those gay dudes should be rounded up and arrested too! Given the chance, I'm sure they'll eventually move onto killing your entire family.

Btw, I don't think anyone ever came close to saying what you just said...because it's dumb.

Or address the real problem that effects those in inner cities.
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Red-lining, lack of social services, lack of investment in infrastructure, property tax codes...you mean things like that?

We should address why they are so riddled with crime, how it decreases home values, how the crime drives away businesses who employ the people who live there, and the lovely politicans who keep them down with promises and entitlements instead of offering evil tax incentives and other goodies in order to bring back businesses and make the people respect their communities enough to not put up with drug dealers and other vermin.
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Entitlements like the GI Bill and FHA that were given to white folks and practically no one else? Or how about fair lending practices? Somehow, I don't think you're talking about those things, which is what I'm about to get to.

And bolstering the schools to teach them skills so that they can get ahead.
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Schools that are meant to be funded well and have good facilities actually do. Schools that under-perform and have shitty facilities are engineered that way. Those schools are doing exactly what they're supposed to do. One is meant to have good students and another is meant to be a drop-out factory.

I'm not saying it's going to be easy, every generation has to struggle and maybe drive a beater car or not go on vacations, but excusing criminals because they had it "unfair" is not the way to cure the problem.
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Or maybe this is the actual problem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining
 
[quote name='Cerebral_One']Add me to the list of someone who is not a theocratic xian who opposes the death penalty...[/QUOTE]

So you don't fit the stereotype. Want a cookie?
 
[quote name='jputahraptor']The way I see it, they are being fed, clothed, and housed at the expense of the taxpayer for crimes against them such as murder, rape, and assault, should their "debt to society" only be paid in time? Do you have problems with prisoners who clean garbage on the highways? Is it unethical for prisoners to have to do something to recoup the cost of keeping them incarcerated? Do you wish you could add some pizaz to prisons and have weekly themes so prisoners have something to look forward to?

I see no problems with making a prisoner work an 8 hour day for a tiny wage. The dollar or whatever they get when they work now. If you think letting them sleep and do nothing is a valuable skill and a fair punishment for killing people's families than you are naive. If you want to bring up race than direct your mock outrage at the law enforcement and courts who conspire to arrest minorities for no reason and fabricate evidence for thousands and thousands of "innocent" prisoners targeted specifically because of the color of their skin. Or address the real problem that effects those in inner cities. We should address why they are so riddled with crime, how it decreases home values, how the crime drives away businesses who employ the people who live there, and the lovely politicans who keep them down with promises and entitlements instead of offering evil tax incentives and other goodies in order to bring back businesses and make the people respect their communities enough to not put up with drug dealers and other vermin. And bolstering the schools to teach them skills so that they can get ahead. I'm not saying it's going to be easy, every generation has to struggle and maybe drive a beater car or not go on vacations, but excusing criminals because they had it "unfair" is not the way to cure the problem.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure why you quoted me with this response as I've said nothing regarding what prisoners should be doing in jail.

I'm all for making prisoners have to work. I would bring back chain-gangs if it didn't mean they'd assault the dude chained next to them. But, it needs to be done ethically. We don't need guards ordering them around negatively, humiliating and putting them down, making them feel like worthless crap, etc because then they're going to view what they're doing as worthless, waste of time, unfit punishment they will carry that sentiment forward if they ever get out.

Most of what is required to run a prison should be done by prisoners. Also, instead of making people in poor countries assemble things, prisoners within the US should do it. If prisoners work for a very cheap wage within prison, then when they get out a low wage job will be more attractive to them than it was before.

I agree with everything you're saying in this last post. I'm not excusing criminals because they had it unfair. What I was saying is that crimes will continue to be committed given the inequality that exists in society. Saying the same thing you are, different words.

[quote name='camoor']So you don't fit the stereotype. Want a cookie?[/QUOTE]

I just found it odd that you were claiming someone else to be stereotypical, yet you were doing it yourself in the same post.
 
[quote name='Cerebral_One']I just found it odd that you were claiming someone else to be stereotypical, yet you were doing it yourself in the same post.[/QUOTE]

No - I was informing him as to the popular stereotype. I thought it was funny that someone who likes to smear liberals couldn't be bothered to even get their stereotypes straight.

And I never said I believed it. I think there are more Christians who like the death penalty then oppose it, but in movies the cliche is some do-gooder Christian who is trying to save the reformed criminal on death row.
 
[quote name='Cerebral_One']Also, instead of making people in poor countries assemble things, prisoners within the US should do it. If prisoners work for a very cheap wage within prison, then when they get out a low wage job will be more attractive to them than it was before.
[/QUOTE]

You *do* realize that this happens now right?
See here,
here,
and the official site for federal prison labor here.
 
RE: Sodomy Laws
Find me some pious judge who has incarcerated a person on a sodomy charge who himself has never had the lovely lips of a woman upon his cock! I love sodomy laws!

Race as handicap; sure, I was baiting a little bit, but what I see from your statements is that it's a hurdle too high and that makes me sad. I also can't agree with the notion that you're sexist simply because you belong to a certain group. I'll go along with it from an institutional standpoint, but only if one acts upon it. Also, there's the perfect example of what I mean (and what Bob was stumbling with in the other thread) sexism vs. misogony. To put it in the other context, misogony = racial hate and requires action, sexism is a function of society (bad analogy but hopefully you follow me) much like institutionalized racism.
Now, smackin' a bitch can just happen, like Wayne Brady every now and then. Doing it all day everyday is misogony, especially if the smacker also does dumb shit outside of just smackin' one person. But to systematically oppress would be outright sexist, and likely requires a certain amount of misogony as well.

That's what I was getting at with needing another word that more accurately defines the action from the status/function/system/what have you. I honestly don't believe that you're sexist as you have made no corollary statements. But to for you to say that you are simply because you belong to the club is kind of disturbing. Granted the verb version of racism can be subtle and doesn't have to involve a burning cross, but I think a person needs to show some verb before you can apply the noun to them so readily.

RE: Me wasting my time
No shit. I've got to do something while waiting for reports to run.
 
[quote name='nasum']RE: Sodomy Laws
Find me some pious judge who has incarcerated a person on a sodomy charge who himself has never had the lovely lips of a woman upon his cock! I love sodomy laws![/QUOTE]
That's my point. Laws are subjectively enforced so the stigma attached to "crime" and "criminal" are just as subjective. Just like you can perform heinous acts that are against the social good that ruins millions of lives, but it isn't technically a crime...just because it's legal/illegal doesn't necessarilly mean it's moral/immoral.

Race as handicap; sure, I was baiting a little bit, but what I see from your statements is that it's a hurdle too high and that makes me sad. I also can't agree with the notion that you're sexist simply because you belong to a certain group. I'll go along with it from an institutional standpoint, but only if one acts upon it. Also, there's the perfect example of what I mean (and what Bob was stumbling with in the other thread) sexism vs. misogony. To put it in the other context, misogony = racial hate and requires action, sexism is a function of society (bad analogy but hopefully you follow me) much like institutionalized racism.
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Ok...let me make things more complicated since you're at least a little receptive to where I'm going.

Saying that I'm sexist is was simplifying it a bit much, but we need a foundation we can somewhat agree on. To be more accurate, one can exhibit sexist behaviors and sexist thoughts without wanting to subjugate women, but that does not make the person anti-sexist. To maintain the status quo is what makes the person sexist.

Now, smackin' a bitch can just happen, like Wayne Brady every now and then. Doing it all day everyday is misogony, especially if the smacker also does dumb shit outside of just smackin' one person. But to systematically oppress would be outright sexist, and likely requires a certain amount of misogony as well.
Click to expand...
Yes, there are exceptions for context, but domestic violence is all about power, which falls into the category of sexism if it's man on woman(for simplicities sake) violence.

That's what I was getting at with needing another word that more accurately defines the action from the status/function/system/what have you. I honestly don't believe that you're sexist as you have made no corollary statements. But to for you to say that you are simply because you belong to the club is kind of disturbing. Granted the verb version of racism can be subtle and doesn't have to involve a burning cross, but I think a person needs to show some verb before you can apply the noun to them so readily.
Click to expand...
If you're not fighting it, you tacitly support it.

RE: Me wasting my time
No shit. I've got to do something while waiting for reports to run.
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And you might even find a deal on a game while you're at it.
 
[quote name='hostyl1']You *do* realize that this happens now right?
See here,
here,
and the official site for federal prison labor here.[/QUOTE]

I was aware they did license plates and stuff, but it's good to see they've expanded. I think there's still too many prisons where this does not occur though. Mostly the very bad prisoners. They should find something for them to do. It's pretty sad that government waited for state budgets to get very bad before instituting such work for prisoners. I think it is foolish though to have prisoners work on military defense items and stuff like public water supplies. There's always the chance they won't do the job correctly.
 
[quote name='Cerebral_One']I think it is foolish though to have prisoners work on military defense items and stuff like public water supplies. There's always the chance they won't do the job correctly.[/QUOTE]

you think?
 
If they don't have good supervision then yes I wouldn't let them do anything that is really vital or important. But, like any job if you don't have good supervision you are going to have jobs being done poorly or incorrectly, which happens all the time now.
 
[quote name='Jabrim']If they don't have good supervision then yes I wouldn't let them do anything that is really vital or important. But, like any job if you don't have good supervision you are going to have jobs being done poorly or incorrectly, which happens all the time now.[/QUOTE]

There's a difference between at-will employment and prison. An employee is motivated by the carrot, whereas most prisoners are motivated only by the stick. And a prisoner is already in prison, there isn't too much you can threaten him with that will make him blink.

And if you think working prisoners are suddenly going to pay for themselves, or even give back a small fraction of the incarceration cost, then you are delusional.
 
Workers in prison that do work and earn money do have to pay a percentage back, that is why they make miniscual wages.
 
[quote name='dohdough']That's my point. Laws are subjectively enforced so the stigma attached to "crime" and "criminal" are just as subjective. Just like you can perform heinous acts that are against the social good that ruins millions of lives, but it isn't technically a crime...just because it's legal/illegal doesn't necessarilly mean it's moral/immoral.


Ok...let me make things more complicated since you're at least a little receptive to where I'm going.

Saying that I'm sexist is was simplifying it a bit much, but we need a foundation we can somewhat agree on. To be more accurate, one can exhibit sexist behaviors and sexist thoughts without wanting to subjugate women, but that does not make the person anti-sexist. To maintain the status quo is what makes the person sexist.


Yes, there are exceptions for context, but domestic violence is all about power, which falls into the category of sexism if it's man on woman(for simplicities sake) violence.


If you're not fighting it, you tacitly support it.


And you might even find a deal on a game while you're at it.[/QUOTE]

I've always been receptive, I just think your delivery of the message comes off as borderline clocktower sniper sometimes and if you really want to motivate change in society on any scale you have to work on your marketing skills. When I've tried to point that out before you misinterpreted it that I didn't like to hear that white people are racist.

I mean, our society has decided that racism and being racist is a bad thing. So if you're going to point a finger and say "That Steve is one hell of a racist asshole", you've got to have more than "nothing" as a response to "what did he do that's so racist?", because that tacit approval isn't enough.
 
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