CheapyD on U.S.' debt ceiling

[quote name='Blaster man']Broly,
Personally, I think a balanced budget amendment would be a terrible idea. How well would the US have done in World War 2 without the ability to borrow? I for one am not willing to bet the farm that another situation like that will never appear again (ever).

Now to talk about the current wars of choice, they have cost 2 trillion so far. Traditionally the US raises taxes to pay for wars and I really don't think the American people would have had a problem sacrificing to fund the wars if a tax increase had been framed in that context. Instead we decided that we could have our cake and eat it too.

Add to that, the Bush tax cuts that have accounted for 2.1 trillion + 400 billion added interest for a total cost (so far) of 2.5 trillion for the the tax cuts. The wars that were unfunded plus the tax cuts together account for over 1/3rd of our current 14 trillion dollar debt.

IMO we should cut spending AND roll back all the Bush tax cuts (not just the part on the rich). We not only have to balance the budget, we have to have huge surpluses if we hope to pay this thing down at all. If the US interest rates go up a few percent, the interest on the debt will kill us.[/QUOTE]

Different times, man. After World War 2, the US was the only country up and running basically. This would be one of those 'save us from ourselves' amendments.

Well, Social Security was only going to cost $1 billion when it was created. How much does it cost us a year to run it? Just checking. What you seem to forget about tax cuts is that they promote consumer spending and promote the economy. If people aren't spending the economy is stagnant, and when the bubble bursts (Which would have happened anyway) it hits us a lot harder than it actually has now. That's something a lot of people want to revise history on. Also, whenever taxes are cut the economy gets a jolt in the arm.

But like I said before, the PROBLEM I have is this: What I'm looking at is a situation wherein taxes are going to be raised and effectively raised again because the Bush tax cuts will expire (because tax cuts aren't permanent, unlike tax hikes) which is effectively 2 tax hikes in short order. That's really bad and if it happens we're screwed the other way. Social programs kind of do need to be cut (and some already are, in case you haven't noticed) because they make up the most of the spending by the Government.

And this is all of course avoiding the issue of Obamacare, which the country can't pay for. Even with the theoretical 'no Bush tax cuts' fantasy some people want to live in, we couldn't pay for it.
 
I just don't get it...

When I have too much debt, I scale back my purchases. If I somehow went to a loan shark and have a ginormous amount to pay, I can't simply pay that back by not buying by next latte. I get a second job, or steal it.

I think any plan that doesn't have any revenue, won't actually help.
 
You have to understand this is the same dynamic seen with healthcare reform.

The cons have spent so much time lying to themselves and each other they are unable to live in the same reality as the rest of us.
 
Of course CheapyD is correct. The Republican argument would be "Since the president will be giving us everything we want, we'll be perfectly happy to raise the debt ceiling." A real non-statement now that I think about it. Whether or not everything they want or what the Democrats want is good for the country is where the debate is.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']Different times, man. After World War 2, the US was the only country up and running basically. This would be one of those 'save us from ourselves' amendments.

Well, Social Security was only going to cost $1 billion when it was created. How much does it cost us a year to run it? Just checking. What you seem to forget about tax cuts is that they promote consumer spending and promote the economy. If people aren't spending the economy is stagnant, and when the bubble bursts (Which would have happened anyway) it hits us a lot harder than it actually has now. That's something a lot of people want to revise history on. Also, whenever taxes are cut the economy gets a jolt in the arm.

But like I said before, the PROBLEM I have is this: What I'm looking at is a situation wherein taxes are going to be raised and effectively raised again because the Bush tax cuts will expire (because tax cuts aren't permanent, unlike tax hikes) which is effectively 2 tax hikes in short order. That's really bad and if it happens we're screwed the other way. Social programs kind of do need to be cut (and some already are, in case you haven't noticed) because they make up the most of the spending by the Government.

And this is all of course avoiding the issue of Obamacare, which the country can't pay for. Even with the theoretical 'no Bush tax cuts' fantasy some people want to live in, we couldn't pay for it.[/QUOTE]

Dude you're so far off and selective in your 'facts" it's laughable. Tax cuts do very little to help the economy as we've seen from the FACT of the Bush tax rates for what, 10 years now. Only one thing is truly a job creator and that's DEMAND. And you get that by putting people back to work, not cutting their taxes.

And why are you even mentioning Social Security here, it adds ZERO to the deficit and is solvent for almost 30 more years? It's an easy fix too, raise the payroll tax cap on income and it's funded 100% for just about ever.

And social programs don't need to be cut, not during a recession and bad economy when people need the help. Besides, many of those programs like unemployment, provide immediate stimulus INTO the economy because the money goes right back out. What's needed are an end to the Bush tax cuts and a reeling in on the military industrial complex spending which has tripled in size over the last decade. You repeal the Bush tax cuts and end our two major wars and this deficit problem is almost solved save a little time to get the economy going again and then it's really taken care of.

As for your mention of "Obamacare" just using that term should automatically dismiss you of being able to rationally discuss it. One of the biggest problems our country faces are spiraling, out of control healthcare costs which that attempts to address. While it definitely doesn't go far enough, repealing it or doing nothing is sure disaster for the healthcare system in this country. You reign in healthcare costs and spending on Medicare and Medicaid automatically goes way down.

if you need anymore facts, just let me know.
 
My question to all those that say Social Security is going bankrupt is - Would that still be the case if politicians had not raised the "lockbox" for years.

Also to lawdood - Your wasting your time. Fox news didnt say it so Broly wont believe it.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']My question to all those that say Social Security is going bankrupt is - Would that still be the case if politicians had not raised the "lockbox" for years.

Also to lawdood - Your wasting your time. Fox news didnt say it so Broly wont believe it.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I should know by now, the more truth and facts you present to a Faux News watching, talk radio listening, conservative, the further they climb into their bubble of denial, myths & ignorance.
 
For those who've tried to say that republicans are willing to compromise...

“Compromise is what’s led us to the mess we’re in right now. We can’t compromise our way out of this,” U.S. Rep. Tom Graves, R-Ranger, said in a Wednesday morning C-SPAN defense of his decision to oppose the Boehner plan.
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http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-politics-elections/georgia-debt-ceiling-debate-1052655.html

Which is said as the Boehner plan isn't much of a compromise in the first place!
 
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Anyone that thinks they are trying to compromise is an idiot. First Republicans said this deal needed to have no tax revenue increase, Dems gave them that, then they said it needed to be a certain size cut, Dems gave them that. Democrats have caved over and over....the conservative movement has just gotten to be so froth at the mouth insane that even when they are getting their way they cant recognize it.

Americas only hope is that these idiots stress themselves in to a heart attack.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']Anyone that thinks they are trying to compromise is an idiot. First Republicans said this deal needed to have no tax revenue increase, Dems gave them that, then they said it needed to be a certain size cut, Dems gave them that. Democrats have caved over and over....the conservative movement has just gotten to be so froth at the mouth insane that even when they are getting their way they cant recognize it.

Americas only hope is that these idiots stress themselves in to a heart attack.[/QUOTE]

I blame the tea party for the frothing at the mouth insanity in the republican party...
 
[quote name='KingBroly']Personal matters != political matters[/QUOTE]

Eh, when a guy sits around and talks about fiscal responsibility but doesn't pay his own bills, I would say they are somewhat related. Do as I say, not as I do?
 
[quote name='docvinh']Eh, when a guy sits around and talks about fiscal responsibility but doesn't pay his own bills, I would say they are somewhat related. Do as I say, not as I do?[/QUOTE]


I'm inclined to agree. There is an air of hypocrisy to Joe Walsh ducking child support yet blasting U.S. President Obama and calling him a "liar."

I can't recall who posted it on the earlier pages, but they posted something about the Democrats doing what the Republicans are doing now (which is being a pain the ass). Partisan politics will be the end of this great country. It's like watching children bicker.
 
[quote name='docvinh']Eh, when a guy sits around and talks about fiscal responsibility but doesn't pay his own bills, I would say they are somewhat related. Do as I say, not as I do?[/QUOTE]

Exactly. It's hypocrisy at its finest.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']Personal matters != political matters[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah, where were you when the GOP was bashing Geithner for owing back taxes?
 
[quote name='Clak']Oh yeah, where were you when the GOP was bashing Geithner for owing back taxes?[/QUOTE]

Owing money to a private citizen is really different from owing money to the Government, especially when you are signing up to help run said Government. And don't start this 'companies are people, too' bullshit either.

What should worry people about the Government defaulting is social security, military pay and something else that I forget right now. If it happens, interest and loans will be paid off. But beyond that who knows. But it'll be very politically motivated for those pay offs, I'm sure of it.

Also, whether we default or not, we're going to lose our AAA rating because of sheer bullshit amount of spending going on. It has to stop. And note, Obamacare on the horizon isn't going to make matters any better.
 
I'm talking simply from a spending standpoint here. How is having Government spending more money when we're running huge deficits year after year with no end in sight going to help alleviate the debt problem? It's not. Especially not with the current state of the economy.

Raising taxes, while it could help the budget situation (MAYBE) wouldn't help with Obamacare on top of it.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']I'm talking simply from a spending standpoint here. How is having Government spending more money when we're running huge deficits year after year with no end in sight going to help alleviate the debt problem? It's not. Especially not with the current state of the economy.

Raising taxes, while it could help the budget situation (MAYBE) wouldn't help with Obamacare on top of it.[/QUOTE]

Can you please refute, with links and facts, the CBO's rating of health care reform actually SAVING money.

And please stop using the term "Obamacare." Obama didn't write the law, Congress did. How often did you hear the term "Romneycare" used by Fox News and right wing talk radio? It makes you sound like you're just a Frank Luntz/ Roger Ailes talking point clone.
 
Well for one thing, we dont have a debt problem. The deficit is a mild problem, but there are many bigger problems that require priority, to the extent that solving one makes others worse.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']Owing money to a private citizen is really different from owing money to the Government, especially when you are signing up to help run said Government. And don't start this 'companies are people, too' bullshit either.

What should worry people about the Government defaulting is social security, military pay and something else that I forget right now. If it happens, interest and loans will be paid off. But beyond that who knows. But it'll be very politically motivated for those pay offs, I'm sure of it.

Also, whether we default or not, we're going to lose our AAA rating because of sheer bullshit amount of spending going on. It has to stop. And note, Obamacare on the horizon isn't going to make matters any better.[/QUOTE]
You said personal matters, I'm just calling out your hypocrisy. Or like lawdood said, where were you when they bashing Weiner?
 
[quote name='KingBroly']Owing money to a private citizen is really different from owing money to the Government, especially when you are signing up to help run said Government. And don't start this 'companies are people, too' bullshit either.

What should worry people about the Government defaulting is social security, military pay and something else that I forget right now. If it happens, interest and loans will be paid off. But beyond that who knows. But it'll be very politically motivated for those pay offs, I'm sure of it.

Also, whether we default or not, we're going to lose our AAA rating because of sheer bullshit amount of spending going on. It has to stop. And note, Obamacare on the horizon isn't going to make matters any better.[/QUOTE]

It's funny. You can't laugh at this Walsh clown? Lighten up - he's a joke!
 
[quote name='Clak']You said personal matters, I'm just calling out your hypocrisy. Or like lawdood said, where were you when they bashing Weiner?[/QUOTE]

"Where were all the Muslims when 9/11 happened?"
 
[quote name='UncleBob']"Where were all the Muslims when 9/11 happened?"[/QUOTE]

I vote hiding from the bigots. Same with the Indian people who were also persecuted as Arab frequently because people are too stupid to tell the difference.
 
[quote name='IRHari']"Where were all the white people when Oklahoma City bombing happened?"[/QUOTE]

So, can we all agree that it's just stupid to expect every individual to speak out against every injustice every time, or else this means they're for it?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']So, can we all agree that it's just stupid to expect every individual to speak out against every injustice every time, or else this means they're for it?[/QUOTE]

Agreed, but I imagine you cant agree that if there is a clear pattern of certain people only siding on certain injustices then they are clearly wrong and should be called out for their BS.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']Agreed, but I imagine you cant agree that if there is a clear pattern of certain people only siding on certain injustices then they are clearly wrong and should be called out for their BS.[/QUOTE]

You are correct - we can't agree on that.

I don't expect someone with conservative leanings to have to be a mouthpiece for liberal representatives just like I don't expect someone with Muslim beliefs to have to become a mouthpiece against Muslim extremists.

As for the Weiner topic - it seems to me it mostly consisted of the more liberal folks on this board cracking jokes about Weiner than it did anyone really speaking negatively about his political career.
 
The whole thing is obviously absurd. There's so much posturing on the right of no tax increases, despite historical evidence showing that higher taxes have been good for us while this current tax tier has been nothing but a complete disaster.

You'll know that you've finally heard a serious person when they say that the cut to increase ratio needs to be roughly 2:1 to fix anything related to debt. Baseline budgeting needs to be reviewed as well. There's no reason to just automatically say that everything gets a 7% increase every year when revenues haven't matched and actual expenses haven't matched either. It's forced defecit spending which eventually leads to debt.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']You are correct - we can't agree on that.

I don't expect someone with conservative leanings to have to be a mouthpiece for liberal representatives just like I don't expect someone with Muslim beliefs to have to become a mouthpiece against Muslim extremists.

As for the Weiner topic - it seems to me it mostly consisted of the more liberal folks on this board cracking jokes about Weiner than it did anyone really speaking negatively about his political career.[/QUOTE]

As long as a scandal doensn't pick anyone's pocket, put the country at risk, or break the law in an egregious manner, I think laughter is the best medicine. We'd be alot better if we just laughed at the dopey sex scandals and civil suits of politicians instead of forcibly ruining their careers. I wish the parties would just let the voters decide, after all choosing the best candidate is supposedly what we are here for.

And if you can't laugh at Joe Walsh, then you have a Repubican stick wedged so far up your ass that you might as well be Boner's ventriloquist dummy.
 
“Zealots are great on the campaign trail,” said Julian E. Zelizer, a professor of history and public affairs at Princeton University, “but a huge problem when it comes to governance. They often don’t believe in the art of a deal even with their allies. If they are not tamed, they can eat their own party alive.”

Thats my only hope...that conservatives playing with fire get burned. If they must trash our economy I truly hope that they get the blame they deserve for this....sadly again since as someone said they have the best Carnival Barker...it wont happen.
 
[quote name='camoor']We'd be alot better if we just laughed at the dopey sex scandals and civil suits of politicians instead of forcibly ruining their careers.[/quote]

Generally, I'd rather just ignore the "scandal" from the outset.

And if you can't laugh at Joe Walsh, then you have a Repubican stick wedged so far up your ass that you might as well be Boner's ventriloquist dummy.
Click to expand...

Or, perhaps, I don't think failing to pay back child support is very funny?
 
[quote name='UncleBob'] Or, perhaps, I don't think failing to pay back child support is very funny?[/QUOTE]

Awesome troll, lawl.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']"Where were all the Muslims when 9/11 happened?"[/QUOTE]
Listen you numbskull, I'm calling him out on his bullshit, I'ts called sarcasm, look that shit up. If you're going to claim something is a personal matter and shouldn't be considered in an assessment of that person, then your side is doing it too, that's called hypocrisy, look that up too.

Willful ignorance all up in this place lately.
 
[quote name='Clak']Listen you numbskull, I'm calling him out on his bullshit, I'ts called sarcasm, look that shit up. If you're going to claim something is a personal matter and shouldn't be considered in an assessment of that person, then your side is doing it too, that's called hypocrisy, look that up too.

Willful ignorance all up in this place lately.[/QUOTE]

"Side" Now, KingBroly is wholly responsible for the entire conservative/Republican population?

Because I don't recall seeing a single KingBroly post in the Weiner thread.

[quote name='IRHari']Awesome troll, lawl.[/QUOTE]

Not finding someone's unwillingness to take care of their children funny = troll now?
 
Bob not understanding that its the hypocrisy of the situation that is funny not the pain caused to others is thick even for you. Being bald is not funny, someone who goes bald after spending his whole life trying to hurt the feelings of those that are bald = funny. Not paying child support = not funny, a congressman who runs on fiscal responsibility but cant pay his own bills = funny in a very sad way.

I always credited you as someone that I didnt agree with...but most likely as a staunch conservative libertarian who takes stupid stances....not just someone that is stupid and thus takes conservative libertarian stances.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']Not paying child support = not funny, a congressman who runs on fiscal responsibility but cant pay his own bills = funny in a very sad way.[/QUOTE]

I suppose, if things like this make you giddy, then, by all means, laugh away.

Personally, I don't find anything about the situation humorous.

Well, that's a lie.
There is one thing funny. Going back to the thread about John Kerry working loopholes in the tax system to pay less taxes while working to get people to pay more taxes... so many people downplayed Kerry's personal actions and how they contrasted with his political actions.

But here, a politician's personal actions are contrasting with his political actions and "OMG THIS IS FUNNY HOPE THE KIDS DON'T STARVE WHILE WAITING FOR CHILD SUPPORT".
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I suppose, if things like this make you giddy, then, by all means, laugh away.

Personally, I don't find anything about the situation humorous.

Well, that's a lie.
There is one thing funny. Going back to the thread about John Kerry working loopholes in the tax system to pay less taxes while working to get people to pay more taxes... so many people downplayed Kerry's personal actions and how they contrasted with his political actions.

But here, a politician's personal actions are contrasting with his political actions and "OMG THIS IS FUNNY HOPE THE KIDS DON'T STARVE WHILE WAITING FOR CHILD SUPPORT".[/QUOTE]

Really? Starve to death? Don't you think that's being just a wee bit melodramatic about it?
 
The House passed a bill. So now it's on Reid's shoulders.

Also, what bullshit is this about Obama's plan that he won't tell anyone about? This isn't Kindergarten!
 
Politics drives me nuts.

All this time wasted to pass a crappy bill in the House that they know will never pass the senate.

All so the republicans can try to pass the "refuse to compromise" tag on democrats--despite this bill containing no concessions to democrat interests at all whatsoever. :bomb:
 
[quote name='IRHari']You never took a position on the Kerry tax loophole thing? Ever?[/QUOTE]

I took virtually the same position on Kerry as many are taking regarding Walsh (including myself): The politician is being hypocritical when you compare their personal actions to their political actions.

However, in the Kerry thread, many people took the "It's okay and I'd do it too" position.
 
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