Christian of the day: Bible Led Mom to Sever Baby's Arms

eldad9

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LISA FALKENBERG

Associated Press


McKINNEY, Texas - A mother who admitted killing her baby daughter by severing the girl's arms was guided by a Bible passage in which Jesus refers to cutting off body parts to cast away sin, the woman's attorney said Tuesday.

Dena Schlosser, a 35-year-old housewife with a history of mental illness, has referred to the New Testament passage since the killing of 10-month-old Margaret, attorney David Haynes told The Associated Press.

In the Book of Matthew, Jesus says: "If thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

Schlosser was charged with capital murder Nov. 22, after she told a 911 operator she had cut off her baby's arms. Police found her in the living room, covered in blood, still holding a knife and listening to a hymn.
 
And now for your famous atheists of the day.

Fidel Castro, Karl Marx, and Benito Mussolini.


Edit: Religion /=/ craziness.
 
This is certainly a repost and there was no need for it in the first place

You're all for not stereotyping or bashing other religions then you go and do it yourselves? Nice... all the supports you two get in twisting this to be some kind of representation of christianity is rediculous, had the same thing been said about any other religion you'd chime in saying how wrong it is, but when it's christianity you feel the need to do it yourselves. I still just don't get it...
 
LIke i said in the last one as well, this is the same crap I see in Gamefaqs.. I used to think we were above having such posts here.
 
[quote name='Duo_Maxwell']This is certainly a repost and there was no need for it in the first place

You're all for not stereotyping or bashing other religions then you go and do it yourselves? Nice... all the supports you two get in twisting this to be some kind of representation of christianity is rediculous, had the same thing been said about any other religion you'd chime in saying how wrong it is, but when it's christianity you feel the need to do it yourselves. I still just don't get it...[/quote]

These are just parodies, if it wasn't for pad's "religion of peace" posts these wouldn't be here.
 
Sure it was a repost - but there was no way to tell this from the other thread's title. you had to have read the other thread to know it.

That's one of the problems with bad thread titles.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23'][quote name='Duo_Maxwell']This is certainly a repost and there was no need for it in the first place

You're all for not stereotyping or bashing other religions then you go and do it yourselves? Nice... all the supports you two get in twisting this to be some kind of representation of christianity is rediculous, had the same thing been said about any other religion you'd chime in saying how wrong it is, but when it's christianity you feel the need to do it yourselves. I still just don't get it...[/quote]

These are just parodies, if it wasn't for pad's "religion of peace" posts these wouldn't be here.[/quote]

So basically what you are saying is that two wrongs make it right?

Grow up.
 
[quote name='RedvsBlue'][quote name='alonzomourning23'][quote name='Duo_Maxwell']This is certainly a repost and there was no need for it in the first place

You're all for not stereotyping or bashing other religions then you go and do it yourselves? Nice... all the supports you two get in twisting this to be some kind of representation of christianity is rediculous, had the same thing been said about any other religion you'd chime in saying how wrong it is, but when it's christianity you feel the need to do it yourselves. I still just don't get it...[/quote]

These are just parodies, if it wasn't for pad's "religion of peace" posts these wouldn't be here.[/quote]

So basically what you are saying is that two wrongs make it right?

Grow up.[/quote]

Parody - a composition that imitates somebody's style in a humorous way

Get a dictionary.

And then lighten up.
 
[quote name='camoor'][quote name='RedvsBlue'][quote name='alonzomourning23'][quote name='Duo_Maxwell']This is certainly a repost and there was no need for it in the first place

You're all for not stereotyping or bashing other religions then you go and do it yourselves? Nice... all the supports you two get in twisting this to be some kind of representation of christianity is rediculous, had the same thing been said about any other religion you'd chime in saying how wrong it is, but when it's christianity you feel the need to do it yourselves. I still just don't get it...[/quote]

These are just parodies, if it wasn't for pad's "religion of peace" posts these wouldn't be here.[/quote]

So basically what you are saying is that two wrongs make it right?

Grow up.[/quote]

Parody - a composition that imitates somebody's style in a humorous way

Get a dictionary.

And then lighten up.[/quote]

Just because he claims that it is a parody doesn't change the simple fact that it is an attack on christianity. Kind of like your avatar... As far as the other thread goes, I never saw it but I would be just as pissed about that as well. Even if you don't care for a religion show some respect. Religion is a very important part of some people's lives.
 
Whoa wait a second, if this is such a parody of another post why didn't the OP mention it as such in the beginning? In fact, so far, the OP still hasn't said anything about it being a parody, its only been said by others.
 
F uck you all of you christian bashers and hate mongers.

I swear if this type of shit was on any other forum you fools would be banned.

And stop comparing this shit to what PAD did cause only your twisted radical minds would consider it to be the same thing.

F uck you Eldad9
F uck you Quack
F uck you alonzomourning23
F uck you camoor
 
[quote name='Scrubking']F uck you all of you christian bashers and hate mongers.

I swear if this type of shit was on any other forum you fools would be banned.

And stop comparing this shit to what PAD did cause only your twisted radical minds would consider it to be the same thing.

F uck you Eldad9
F uck you Quack
F uck you alonzomourning23
F uck you camoor[/quote]

gj with the filter bypass.

That's some set of morals you got there.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla'][quote name='Scrubking']F uck you all of you christian bashers and hate mongers.

I swear if this type of shit was on any other forum you fools would be banned.

And stop comparing this shit to what PAD did cause only your twisted radical minds would consider it to be the same thing.

F uck you Eldad9
F uck you Quack
F uck you alonzomourning23
F uck you camoor[/quote]

gj with the filter bypass.

That's some set of morals you got there.[/quote]

Wow, so instead of actually responding to the real meat of the issue around here you're going to respond to one person swearing. Typical Quack.
 
Double F uck you Quack for single handedly turning this board into the radical piece of hateful shit that it is today.

We used to argue politics, but now all you motherF uckers do is post hate shit.
 
[quote name='Scrubking']Double F uck you Quack for single handedly turning this board into the radical piece of hateful shit that it is today.

We used to argue politics, but now all you motherF uckers do is post hate shit.[/quote]

I wouldn't say singlehandedly, PAD has added to it quite a bit. That having been said, Quack certainly hasn't helped the issue. The one thing PAD has going for him is that he keeps his crap on the political forum, Quack, on the other hand, spreads it all around.
 
[sarcasm]If we are indeed a nation founded on Christian values and this woman truly was inspired by the Bible, the absolute word of God, I'm not sure how she can be prosecuted. After all, a recent Fox News poll showed an astounding 55% of Americans believe the Bible is literally accurate.[/sarcasm]

Honestly this woman is insane. However, is she anymore insane than the authors of the Bible, the Koran, the Vedas, etc? [sarcasm]Legislation should be passed immediately to prevent such dangerous materials from reaching the hands of those who are mentally unstable.[/sarcasm]

[quote name='Scrubking']F uck you all of you...[/quote]

Scrub you certainly are a beacon of light for Christian values.
 
[quote name='Plumberboy'][sarcasm]If we are indeed a nation founded on Christian values and this woman truly was inspired by the Bible, the absolute word of God, I'm not sure how she can be prosecuted. After all, a recent Fox News poll showed an astounding 55% of Americans believe the Bible is literally accurate.[/sarcasm]

Honestly this woman is insane. However, is she anymore insane than the authors of the Bible, the Koran, the Vedas, etc? [sarcasm]Legislation should be passed immediately to prevent such dangerous materials from reaching the hands of those who are mentally unstable.[/sarcasm]

[quote name='Scrubking']F uck you all of you...[/quote]

Scrub you certainly are a beacon of light for Christian values.[/quote]

Those may possibly be (and that's a stretch) sarcasm. Saying that this lady with obvious mental problems is a "christion of the day" as the OP did in his thread title, is implying that her actions speak for the entire Christian religion, which they do not.

Since everyone keeps throwing around this sarcasm word, let's look at the definition from dictionary.com.

1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.

Now, if you ask me both of those definitions don't seem to help the matter very much either.

Now all that having been said, an atheist could have just as easily done this and blamed it on video games.
 
[quote name='RedvsBlue'][quote name='camoor'][quote name='RedvsBlue'][quote name='alonzomourning23'][quote name='Duo_Maxwell']This is certainly a repost and there was no need for it in the first place

You're all for not stereotyping or bashing other religions then you go and do it yourselves? Nice... all the supports you two get in twisting this to be some kind of representation of christianity is rediculous, had the same thing been said about any other religion you'd chime in saying how wrong it is, but when it's christianity you feel the need to do it yourselves. I still just don't get it...[/quote]

These are just parodies, if it wasn't for pad's "religion of peace" posts these wouldn't be here.[/quote]

So basically what you are saying is that two wrongs make it right?

Grow up.[/quote]

Parody - a composition that imitates somebody's style in a humorous way

Get a dictionary.

And then lighten up.[/quote]

Just because he claims that it is a parody doesn't change the simple fact that it is an attack on christianity. Kind of like your avatar... As far as the other thread goes, I never saw it but I would be just as pissed about that as well. Even if you don't care for a religion show some respect. Religion is a very important part of some people's lives.[/quote]

It's not an attack on Christianity, it's ridiculing the radical posts by PAD by happening to use Christianity and a crazy lady.
 
Scrub you certainly are a beacon of light for Christian values.

The best part of all this is that I have never said anything about being a Christian yet I get shit like this.

You see this is the heart of the matter. You hateful liberals assume that some of us are Christians and so you post your hateful crap here because of it. Which makes your "this is about pad" story complete bullshit.

This isn't about pad. This is about hateful, crazy liberals posting shit because they can get away with it here.
 
It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas
Ev'rywhere you go;
Take a look in the five-and-ten, glistening once again
With candy canes and silver lanes aglow.
It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas,
Toys in ev'ry store,
But the prettiest sight to see is the holly that will be
On your own front door.


A pair of hopalong boots and a pistol that shoots
Is the wish of Barney and Ben;
Dolls that will talk and will go for a walk
Is the hope of Janice and Jen;
And Mom and Dad can hardly wait for school to start again.
It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas
Ev'rywhere you go;
There's a tree in the Grand Hotel, one in the park as well,
The sturdy kind that doesn't mind the snow.
It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas;
Soon the bells will start,
And the thing that will make them ring is the carol that you sing
Right within your heart.
 
[quote name='camoor'][quote name='RedvsBlue'][quote name='camoor'][quote name='RedvsBlue'][quote name='alonzomourning23'][quote name='Duo_Maxwell']This is certainly a repost and there was no need for it in the first place

You're all for not stereotyping or bashing other religions then you go and do it yourselves? Nice... all the supports you two get in twisting this to be some kind of representation of christianity is rediculous, had the same thing been said about any other religion you'd chime in saying how wrong it is, but when it's christianity you feel the need to do it yourselves. I still just don't get it...[/quote]

These are just parodies, if it wasn't for pad's "religion of peace" posts these wouldn't be here.[/quote]

So basically what you are saying is that two wrongs make it right?

Grow up.[/quote]

Parody - a composition that imitates somebody's style in a humorous way

Get a dictionary.

And then lighten up.[/quote]

Just because he claims that it is a parody doesn't change the simple fact that it is an attack on christianity. Kind of like your avatar... As far as the other thread goes, I never saw it but I would be just as pissed about that as well. Even if you don't care for a religion show some respect. Religion is a very important part of some people's lives.[/quote]

It's not an attack on Christianity, it's ridiculing the radical posts by PAD by happening to use Christianity and a crazy lady.[/quote]

So "intended to wound" and "victim" (both words found in the definition of sarcasm) are mutually exclusive with the word attack?
 
[quote name='RedvsBlue']Those may possibly be (and that's a stretch) sarcasm. Saying that this lady with obvious mental problems is a "christion of the day" as the OP did in his thread title, is implying that her actions speak for the entire Christian religion, which they do not.[/quote]

There is no stretch, it was sarcasm. Here is a woman, mentally unstable, who read a passage from the Bible and took it literally. The Fox News poll which asked, "Do you believe that every word of the Bible is literally accurate -- that the events it describes actually happened, or not?" showed that 55% of Americans (not the entire Christian religion) believe the Bible is literally accurate.

[quote name='RedvsBlue']Now all that having been said, an atheist could have just as easily done this and blamed it on video games.[/quote]

I totally agree. Maybe it was not clear, but the sarcasm here was directed at those who feel the need to legislate every aspect of our lives to protect us from a handful of unstable individuals. Point being, the Bible can be as dangerous as GTA in the hands of certain people.
 
[quote name='Scrubking']F uck you all of you christian bashers and hate mongers.

I swear if this type of shit was on any other forum you fools would be banned.

And stop comparing this shit to what PAD did cause only your twisted radical minds would consider it to be the same thing.

F uck you Eldad9
F uck you Quack
F uck you alonzomourning23
F uck you camoor[/quote]

Lately it seems (to some, not all) that anything stopping religious christians from acting as if they make up the entire country, is considered an attack on christianity. Any condemnation of anything done by christians, for whatever reason, is considered an attack on christianity. It's perfectly fine to condemn another religion, it's perfectly fine to go on and on about how horrible and dangerous it is (frontpagemag does a wonderful job at that), but you can't say anything about the major religion in this country. It doesn't matter if you are a christian (or were one), anything that can possibly be taken as negative or limiting the power of christianity is considered an attack. How the hell the dominant group, that controls all branches of government and society, can claim that they're the victims, they're under attack, is beyond me. In our society, any major government action taken, be it the supreme court or senate, is done with the consent of christians. That being said, this was not an attack, or condemnation of christianity. When someone unfairly singles out one religion, then it is perfectly reasonable for someone to unfairly single out their religion, that's why these posts are here. They don't reflect the real opinions of the poster, they are a way to make a point. This may be a poor parody, but it is one. And besides, you are about as radical as they come, you may be conservative, but you are still a radical, it's not just a term reserved for leftists. You may be willing to go into more detail than quack (you usually give reasons then say f off, quack often skips the reasons), but you are just as radical. And besides, what's the point in just telling everyone to F off? It goes nowhere and looks childish.
 
I was just thinking about the bible and how the christian god tells Abraham that he's ready for a sacrifice, and the sacrifice is going to be Abraham's son. Then at the last second, god says "Just kidding!" and tells Abraham to stop with the infanticide.

Seems to me that interpreting the bible literally is pretty dangerous. Pretty damn scary that so many ppl do, because how can you really blame these literalists if they hear a voice in their head telling them to kill their children. If a person literally believes the bible, then one of those voices could be god, and who are you to tell the person differently.

Now if you take the story as a fictional parable, then all sorts of meaningful ideas and life lessons will suddenly come to light. Of course with the religious fundamentalism that is again sweeping the nation, I can only think that the dangerous beliefs of literalist fanatics will lead to more tragedies.
 
Seems to me that interpreting the bible literally is pretty dangerous. Pretty damn scary that so many ppl do, because how can you really blame these literalists if they hear a voice in their head telling them to kill their children. If a person literally believes the bible, then one of those voices could be god, and who are you to tell the person differently.

Now if you take the story as a fictional parable, then all sorts of meaningful ideas and life lessons will suddenly come to light. Of course with the religious fundamentalism that is again sweeping the nation, I can only think that the dangerous beliefs of literalist fanatics will lead to more tragedies.


True. Unfortunately, too many people decided to pick up the broad brush and start applying this to all Christians.
That's as much as a disservice as someone taking up a broad brush and saying that all athiests are amoral wretches.
Neither is fair nor correct, but those are the types of statements that get the attention.
 
[quote name='Backlash']Don't they teach metaphors in grade school anymore? I believe I learned about those in 6th grade or something?[/quote]

What do metaphors have to do with anything? Metaphors and sarcasm are 2 different things.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Any condemnation of anything done by christians, for whatever reason, is considered an attack on christianity. It's perfectly fine to condemn another religion, it's perfectly fine to go on and on about how horrible and dangerous it is (frontpagemag does a wonderful job at that), but you can't say anything about the major religion in this country?[/quote]

I'm not sure if you're speaking to Scrubking specifically or not here. Anyway, I personally, don't stand for attacks on any religion. I don't think PAD's posts (I had to go searching for them) were right because he was laying the actions of a few extremists on the entire muslim faith. That is the exact same reason why I don't like this thread either, because its saying that the actions of one mentally disturbed woman somehow are an indicator of the christian faith.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Any condemnation of anything done by christians, for whatever reason, is considered an attack on christianity. It's perfectly fine to condemn another religion, it's perfectly fine to go on and on about how horrible and dangerous it is (frontpagemag does a wonderful job at that), but you can't say anything about the major religion in this country?[/quote]

I'm not sure if you're speaking to Scrubking specifically or not here. Anyway, I personally, don't stand for attacks on any religion. I don't think PAD's posts (I had to go searching for them) were right because he was laying the actions of a few extremists on the entire muslim faith. That is the exact same reason why I don't like this thread either, because its saying that the actions of one mentally disturbed woman somehow are an indicator of the christian faith.

I was speaking to scrubking and those who hold similar views, I also mentioned frontpagemag because it's something he has posted links to (and if you ever look at it, they often complain about christians being under attack and discriminated against). I know many aren't like that, but some are. Though, I can see someone finding this offensive if they belief the OP meant what he said, but I just don't think they intended this to be anything more than a parody of PAD. I don't think they really believed this had anything to do with christianity.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23'][quote name='alonzomourning23']Any condemnation of anything done by christians, for whatever reason, is considered an attack on christianity. It's perfectly fine to condemn another religion, it's perfectly fine to go on and on about how horrible and dangerous it is (frontpagemag does a wonderful job at that), but you can't say anything about the major religion in this country?[/quote]

I'm not sure if you're speaking to Scrubking specifically or not here. Anyway, I personally, don't stand for attacks on any religion. I don't think PAD's posts (I had to go searching for them) were right because he was laying the actions of a few extremists on the entire muslim faith. That is the exact same reason why I don't like this thread either, because its saying that the actions of one mentally disturbed woman somehow are an indicator of the christian faith.

I was speaking to scrubking and those who hold similar views, I also mentioned frontpagemag because it's something he has posted links to (and if you ever look at it, they often complain about christians being under attack and discriminated against). I know many aren't like that, but some are. Though, I can see someone finding this offensive if they belief the OP meant what he said, but I just don't think they intended this to be anything more than a parody of PAD. I don't think they really believed this had anything to do with christianity.[/quote]

You see, the problem I see here is that it wasn't an OBVIOUS parody of PAD. Yes, it was a parody, but it was not so outlandish and stilted to one point of view that anyone would confuse it with a PAD post.

It's an obviously negative and inflamitory title, which goes to pattern, but PAD usually does some editorializing after afterwards.

While I believe it to be parody because eldad posted it, it's hardly out of the modus oporandi of some of the other vs-mode frequenters to make a post in such a manner with a serious and possibly ill intent.
 
you are about as radical as they come, you may be conservative, but you are still a radical, it's not just a term reserved for leftists. You may be willing to go into more detail than quack (you usually give reasons then say f off, quack often skips the reasons), but you are just as radical.

There is nothing more worthless than a radical trying to call someone else a radical.

I also find it amusing when I am labeled as radical for simply disagreeing with the REAL radical views on this board like Quack hating all Christians (don't fool yourself he does).

The truth is I hold the same moderate conservative views that most of the US does. The only reason my ideas seem radical is because, sadly, I am a minority on this board among the left wing nut jobs that constantly post hatred of anything mildly conservative.
 
[quote name='RedvsBlue'][quote name='Backlash']Don't they teach metaphors in grade school anymore? I believe I learned about those in 6th grade or something?[/quote]

What do metaphors have to do with anything? Metaphors and sarcasm are 2 different things.
[/quote]

I read the original Bible passage as a metaphor. (The whole thing about cutting off a limb instead of your whole body going to waste). It's very odd that SO many people take things like that literally.

I have a bad habit of addressing the OT and ignoring inflammatory side discussions.
 
[quote name='JSweeney'][quote name='alonzomourning23'][quote name='alonzomourning23']Any condemnation of anything done by christians, for whatever reason, is considered an attack on christianity. It's perfectly fine to condemn another religion, it's perfectly fine to go on and on about how horrible and dangerous it is (frontpagemag does a wonderful job at that), but you can't say anything about the major religion in this country?[/quote]

I'm not sure if you're speaking to Scrubking specifically or not here. Anyway, I personally, don't stand for attacks on any religion. I don't think PAD's posts (I had to go searching for them) were right because he was laying the actions of a few extremists on the entire muslim faith. That is the exact same reason why I don't like this thread either, because its saying that the actions of one mentally disturbed woman somehow are an indicator of the christian faith.

I was speaking to scrubking and those who hold similar views, I also mentioned frontpagemag because it's something he has posted links to (and if you ever look at it, they often complain about christians being under attack and discriminated against). I know many aren't like that, but some are. Though, I can see someone finding this offensive if they belief the OP meant what he said, but I just don't think they intended this to be anything more than a parody of PAD. I don't think they really believed this had anything to do with christianity.[/quote]

You see, the problem I see here is that it wasn't an OBVIOUS parody of PAD. Yes, it was a parody, but it was not so outlandish and stilted to one point of view that anyone would confuse it with a PAD post.

It's an obviously negative and inflamitory title, which goes to pattern, but PAD usually does some editorializing after afterwards.

While I believe it to be parody because eldad posted it, it's hardly out of the modus oporandi of some of the other vs-mode frequenters to make a post in such a manner with a serious and possibly ill intent.[/quote]

See this is the same problem I had. The OP never mentions PAD or makes it very clear that it has anything to do with his thread. Had the title been something similar or had it said something then yeah I can see it but since the OP never made it clear it seemed more like the OP meant this thread as an attack on christianity.

[quote name='Backlash']
I read the original Bible passage as a metaphor. (The whole thing about cutting off a limb instead of your whole body going to waste). It's very odd that SO many people take things like that literally.

I have a bad habit of addressing the OT and ignoring inflammatory side discussions.[/quote]

Ahh ok, I see now. Metaphor seems like the perfect word for the situation then. I was in a semi-defensive posture and I thought you were maybe saying that this lady's actions were a metaphor for christianity or that no one knew that metaphor and sarcasm were similar... I understand what you were saying now though and I agree.
 
[quote name='Scrubking']
you are about as radical as they come, you may be conservative, but you are still a radical, it's not just a term reserved for leftists. You may be willing to go into more detail than quack (you usually give reasons then say f off, quack often skips the reasons), but you are just as radical.

There is nothing more worthless than a radical trying to call someone else a radical.

I also find it amusing when I am labeled as radical for simply disagreeing with the REAL radical views on this board like Quack hating all Christians (don't fool yourself he does).

The truth is I hold the same moderate conservative views that most of the US does. The only reason my ideas seem radical is because, sadly, I am a minority on this board among the left wing nut jobs that constantly post hatred of anything mildly conservative.[/quote]

Well, in the u.s. I am far left, I wouldn't say radical, but I guess some could call me that. Though I have yet to meet a radical who I generally agreed with, usually they're outlandish and extreme, such as quack, so I wouldn't call myself one. For the record, I usually feel quack, moore, the more wacko war protesters (bush=nazi), anyone on air america (most of those guys, including randi rhodes who seems to be popular in some areas, I despise) besides al franken are extremists who I want nothing to do with (though michael moore can be funny, that's not to say I agree with him). Living in canada, where I'm simply moderate left, sometimes it's hard to think of myself that way anymore. Whenver I get involved in political groups here I tend to be the moderate. Though whatever you want to call me, I wasn't using radical as an insult, I was simply stating what you are, a radical. Whether I'm a radical or not doesn't change that. The way I look at it, if you can read things like counterpunch and indymedia (both liberal) and agree with the majority of what is said (which I don't), then you're a radical. If you can read frontpagemag and (to a lesser extent) newsmax and agree with what's said, then you're a radical. I know you read frontpagemag, your often use the same words they do (such as shadow party), and you also seem to have many of the same ideas. Though if the comment is so worthless coming from a radical, why bother calling quack one, even if he obviously is?
 
[quote name='Scrubking']I also find it amusing when I am labeled as radical for simply disagreeing with the REAL radical views on this board like Quack hating all Christians (don't fool yourself he does).[/quote]

Yes, that's true. My life as an active Boy Scout leader, volunteer (through an Episcopal Church), and an all around good natured contributing member of society is all an act.

I secretly plot to post radical views on internet forums, and that consumes my whole life.

Yeah, you may want to see a shrink, buddy. Paranoia gets worse over time.
 
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