Christianity is false and immoral. (Hitchens)

No need to consider it bait. This was a pretty good speech by Hitch and I just thought I'd give my fellow heathens a little intellectual ammo. :)
 
Why, as an atheist, must we prove ourselves to theists via the destruction of their belief systems?
I was saddened when I learned he had cancer and his chances of surviving it are extremely slim.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']Why, as an atheist, must we prove ourselves to theists via the destruction of their belief systems?[/QUOTE]

If their belief systems were entirely harmless, I would agree.

I was saddened when I learned he had cancer and his chances of surviving it are extremely slim.
Click to expand...
Yeah..I heard a sad interview where he said he talked about how he had just finished his autobiography and was finally at the point in life where he could take a break and start "coasting"..enjoying the fruits of his labor, touring the world, etc when he got the diagnosis. Doesn't seem fair, but Hitch is mature enough to recognize that fairness is not something we should expect in world governed by indifferent natural processes. He seems to be handling it pretty well. I hope he pulls through.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']Agreed. BTW did you see the fox interview about the "You KNOW it is a myth" sign on the NYC bus?[/QUOTE]

I only saw the interview with Orly claiming the regularity of the ocean tides proves god. ;)
 
I'm just sick of arguing to be honest. It's like an immovable object meeting an unstoppable force. No one is going to convince anyone of anything else, so what's the point of arguing? I don't have anything to prove to anyone personally.
 
[quote name='Clak']It's like an immovable object meeting an unstoppable force. No one is going to convince anyone of anything else, so what's the point of arguing? [/QUOTE]

Not necessarily true. For those who cling to religion purely for emotional/comfort reasons, debate is probably futile. However there are some rational theists out there who simply never stopped to examine their position on these issues. If someone is genuinely interested in whether their beliefs are true..and find that they can't rationally justify them, they should (and often will) change their mind. I know because I did. ;) And my mind is still open on the issue. This is literally the biggest topic there is..one that shapes the fundamental worldview of billions of people. I can't think of anything that is more interesting or important, and if someone has solid arguments or evidence that get me to question my ideas..or show that I am mistaken in my beliefs, I would like to see it.
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']If their belief systems were entirely harmless, I would agree.

[/QUOTE]

So Christians are going to watch this and say to themselves, "hunh, good point, my religion is false and immoral. Thank you guy who is talking"?

I don't really know what it's supposed to accomplish. That would kind of be like someone posting an out of the blue particularly good speech by a Christian leader in the vs. forum. Guess I just don't understand the point of the thread.
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']Not necessarily true. For those who cling to religion purely for emotional/comfort reasons, debate is probably futile. However there are some rational theists out there who simply never stopped to examine their position on these issues. [/QUOTE]
We don't have any of those here nor do I think most people come into contact with many. Facts don't change minds, that's been proven. I've got better things to do with my time than to argue with a brick wall.
 
[quote name='Clak']We don't have any of those here nor do I think most people come into contact with many. Facts don't change minds, that's been proven. I've got better things to do with my time than to argue with a brick wall.[/QUOTE]
You sure about that? :D:D:D

Frankly, I find that it's a very enjoyable hobby.
 
[quote name='Clak']I'm just sick of arguing to be honest. It's like an immovable object meeting an unstoppable force. No one is going to convince anyone of anything else, so what's the point of arguing? I don't have anything to prove to anyone personally.[/QUOTE]

Good for you. But I argue, if you could call it that, for one reason. I truly believe to not probe these issues from time to time leads to intellectual atrophy. I could find 100 people who agree with me, but only the ones that don't will allow me to grow mentally. Sounds childish but that is how I roll.
 
It's just an argument that I've had far too much lately. Nothing said to me is going to cause me to seriously question my beliefs, and nothing I say to a religious person is going to cause them to question theirs.

And actually, I post here so maybe I do enjoy arguing with brick walls.
 
Religion is fascinating. I was raised a catholic and I guess I still am technically even though I don't go to church - ever. I baptized both of my kids though. I don't believe in 99% of religion but I do believe that there is a higher power out there somewhere - not pulling the strings or anything like that but rather something out there that I can't comprehend that might explain the mysteries of the universe. Maybe it is a "God" by our definition but that doesn't mean it actually is - if that makes any sense. Am I an Atheist? I can't be, right?
 
[quote name='javeryh']Religion is fascinating. I was raised a catholic and I guess I still am technically even though I don't go to church - ever. I baptized both of my kids though. I don't believe in 99% of religion but I do believe that there is a higher power out there somewhere - not pulling the strings or anything like that but rather something out there that I can't comprehend that might explain the mysteries of the universe. [/QUOTE]

deist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
 
[quote name='javeryh']Religion is fascinating. I was raised a catholic and I guess I still am technically even though I don't go to church - ever. I baptized both of my kids though. I don't believe in 99% of religion but I do believe that there is a higher power out there somewhere - not pulling the strings or anything like that but rather something out there that I can't comprehend that might explain the mysteries of the universe. Maybe it is a "God" by our definition but that doesn't mean it actually is - if that makes any sense. Am I an Atheist? I can't be, right?[/QUOTE]
It sounds like you're a man that would appreciate Spinoza. Albert Einstein described Spinoza's god best:
“I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings”
Click to expand...
If I was going to believe in a god, that would be the one.
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']deist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism[/QUOTE]

[quote name='speedracer']It sounds like you're a man that would appreciate Spinoza. Albert Einstein described Spinoza's god best:

If I was going to believe in a god, that would be the one.[/QUOTE]

I think that's pretty close! I'm curious though - if you are a true athiest then how do you explain the unexplainable? Maybe not explain... rationalize might be a better word. Like for example, I can accept that the universe is millions of years old and may have started with a big bang or whatever but how do you explain what happened before that or how that came to be?
 
I'd like religion to stay around in the form of tradition and community gatherings, so I don't always approve of the hostile take some atheists have with the subject. However, religion is unfortunately a major factor in well developed countries to this day, so it's nice there are intelligent people who are passionate about trying to advance human thought.

And atheists aren't atheists because they know all the answers, they just know certain answers are flat out ridiculous. It's unfair to raise each generation within such a system, especially from a young age. Not saying I wouldn't take kids to church for them to have fun, but I can say that religion definitely had an effect on me growing up and it was more scary than anything.
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']If their belief systems were entirely harmless, I would agree. [/QUOTE]

No belief system is harmless. Humanity has the incredible capacity to take every concept to radical extremes.
 
[quote name='javeryh']I think that's pretty close! I'm curious though - if you are a true athiest then how do you explain the unexplainable? Maybe not explain... rationalize might be a better word. Like for example, I can accept that the universe is millions of years old and may have started with a big bang or whatever but how do you explain what happened before that or how that came to be?[/QUOTE]
By surmising that there are things we don't quite know and say that we don't know, but science might be able to help us out with that one day.
 
[quote name='javeryh']I think that's pretty close! I'm curious though - if you are a true athiest then how do you explain the unexplainable? Maybe not explain... rationalize might be a better word. Like for example, I can accept that the universe is millions of years old and may have started with a big bang or whatever but how do you explain what happened before that or how that came to be?[/QUOTE]

Well, it's pretty nonsensical to speak of something happening "before" time exists. It's also worth noting that not having an absolute answer to the "big questions" in no way makes supernatural assertions more plausible. We don't need an answer for everything in order to justify a rejection of supernatural/magical explanations. All atheism really means is not making unjustified assertions or claims to knowledge. Of course, ignorance is an uncomfortable position for many people to be in so it's no mystery why mankind has invented thousands of gods over the centuries to explain the unexplainable.. Originally we had gods of the air, sea, and land..gods of nature..gods of the sun and planets..gods who sent disease, lightning, earthquakes..etc. Science has killed those gods. Everywhere we look, we find more nature..not magic. When science shines the light on the world, the gods always retreat. Faith has traditionally made it's home in the shadows of ignorance..in the dark places where the human intellect has not yet penetrated. Today, this is mainly in two places..the origin of organic matter from inorganic matter (the field of abiogenesis), and the origin of the cosmos itself.

Given the track record of history, I wouldn't be very confident in assigning supernatural explanations for those things either. I'm content to wait until the data comes in, to be humble in my ignorance, and not pretend to know something I don't.
 
[quote name='javeryh']I think that's pretty close! I'm curious though - if you are a true athiest then how do you explain the unexplainable? Maybe not explain... rationalize might be a better word. Like for example, I can accept that the universe is millions of years old and may have started with a big bang or whatever but how do you explain what happened before that or how that came to be?[/QUOTE]

I know you're not defending god or religion here, but asking what happened before the big bang is like asking what happened before god decided one day to create the universe. If the universe is so complicated and orderly that only a omnipotent god could have created, doesn't it follow that only a MORE powerful being had to create god? The problems are basically the same with a theist and an athiest. A theist says 'god takes care of everything,' but that is no closer to actually knowing what happened than an athiest saying "we don't know yet what happened, but there's a good chance one day we will'.
 
I agree with all of that... especially that science will continue to answer the questions we don't have answers for right now. I guess my tiny little brain can't comprehend nothingness (because to me nothingness is something) and you could go back forever trying to figure out when or how everything came to be. Maybe the mistake is thinking that time is something that is completely linear when in fact it is not.
 
Just wanted to chime in that there are areas of cosmology trying to answer what was before the big bang. While nothing concrete is there yet, there have been some interesting theories about the nature reality within our universe, that have come from asking the question what was there before the big bang.
 
I consider myself a Daoist. I truly believe in the Balance and believe science even validates it. It gives me comfort to think there's a higher power but it doesn't have sentience.
As far as Atheists I have no problem with them except the one's who've made Science their new religion. It's fucking offensive when they've basically replaced the cross on their neck with a test tube or beaker.

I'll also go so far as to say I hope Science doesn't discover everything as some things I wouldn't want them to discover, i.e. the communications system by which the brain operates. Imagine them licensing out parts of our private thoughts to marketing companies like the eletromagnetic spectrum for TV, radio, etc.
 
Well from what I understand, and realize I only had a single class in astronomy, it's believed the universe itself existed before the big bang. Not the things in the universe we know of today, but space itself basically. Again I'm no expert, and as with any science not everyone agrees with everyone else's theories.

Not everyone has to be explained, at least not for me. I take solace in the fact that researchers continue to theorize and experiment and discover new explanations for things.

Somebody actually said to me once that atheists take all the beauty and wonder out of life, that it's basically cold and calculating. I can understand why some people would think that, but at least for me that isn't the case at all. I find a lot of beauty in the processes of nature which create many of the things people find beautiful. I can look at the sky on a clear day and think the sky looks beautiful, but I also know why the sky is blue, and to me that adds to it. I know that if our atmosphere were different, the sky could be a completely different color, so to me the fact that we have just the right atmosphere to create that beautiful blue sky is an amazing and beautiful thing. to me once you understand just how unlikely it is that we should even be here in the first place, it's mind blowing I think. You start to honestly be more thankful for our planet, because it's so unlikely that it should happen we have this world. On the other hand, if you believe that a god created the earth, it seems like it was no big deal, almost like he could just make us another one once we screw this one up.
 
[quote name='Clak'] On the other hand, if you believe that a god created the earth, it seems like it was no big deal, almost like he could just make us another one once we screw this one up.[/QUOTE]

I think this is why so many people are cruel and/or just don't care. This is just a practice round for them.
 
I think if people accepted this is the only life they'll have, that there is no heaven/hell or reincarnation, they probably wouldn't waste their lives as much.

Then again, I believe that and spend way too much time posting and arguing on here, so what do I know.
 
[quote name='willardhaven']I think this is why so many people are cruel and/or just don't care. This is just a practice round for them.[/QUOTE]

And knowing that they don't face any lasting judgment beyond that which society can impose somehow doesn't encourage or at least allow for human cruelty? Though I suppose the underlying question is whether you believe people are inherently moral or need to be cowed into it by external threats.
 
[quote name='Clak']I think if people accepted this is the only life they'll have, that there is no heaven/hell or reincarnation, they probably wouldn't waste their lives as much.

Then again, I believe that and spend way too much time posting and arguing on here, so what do I know.[/QUOTE]

If that's the case I might as well kill myself or wish to never have existed as I'd consider that a cruel joke.
 
My mom was born Catholic. My dad was born Jewish. My mom converted before I was born, mostly to appease my dad I imagine and enstill my sister and I with some religion. So some orthodox's would say Im not a real jew. Most others (conservatives through reform) would say I am.

I didn't really give a shit about religion until I was going to turn 13 and needed to get bar mitzvahed. I got a choice between getting a shit-ton of money (to a 13 year old at least) or going on a family trip to europe, then to Israel to be bar mitzvahed at the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem. I chose the latter.

Now I have a daughter. She is 5 months old. My wife is Catholic and I am...hmmm.

I don't know what I am I guess. I say I'm jewish but completely agree with every single one of Hitchens' points.

My beliefs, if I believe them, are completely fucking ridiculous. I love ragging on the whole jesus thing and immaculate conception because it is so hard to believe but what about noah, the parting of the seas, the burning bush..... I could go on and on and on about the shit I am supposed to believe but don't.

But I also don't want to think i just rot in the ground when I die. That scares me. Religion gives me an out. Even if there is the remotest of possibilities that God exists and I can spend the afterlife in heaven, I want to cling to that.

But I LOVE reason. It is what makes us human. And this clingly faith based belief is soooooo unsupportable. It's just untenable. How can I think myself logical and reasonable and belive in God. It just makes no sense.

So those of you who say that this discussion is just two immovable objects butting heads are wrong. Out there are some teens or people like me (29) who struggle with these thoughts. I don't know why but it is important to discuss these things.

As a jew there is also the whole genocide elment. A percieved duty to carry on our faith/culture because so many people have tried to wipe us out for so long. A sort of stubborn reluctance to let our faith die off. So I cling. I hope. Yet I know Hitchens is right.
 
[quote name='javeryh']I think that's pretty close! I'm curious though - if you are a true athiest then how do you explain the unexplainable? Maybe not explain... rationalize might be a better word. Like for example, I can accept that the universe is millions of years old and may have started with a big bang or whatever but how do you explain what happened before that or how that came to be?[/QUOTE]

Those are what we call 'known unknowns'. We will openly admit that we don't know for sure. We have ideas and speculation, but that's where our knowledge ends. We simply speculate about it hoping that one day, we might know the truth. Until that day, we just have to accept the fact that we can't know everything.
 
/remembers last week when everyone in here was saying no athiests or agnostics were inyourface

georgetakeismirk.jpeg
 
[quote name='Clak']Uh, society's judgment can be pretty damn harsh. In some cases literally deadly.[/QUOTE]

Sure, but isn't that really beside the point? If people need to be cowed into acting "morally," what difference does it make whether it's God or man threatening judgment?
 
[quote name='Access_Denied']Those are what we call 'known unknowns'. We will openly admit that we don't know for sure. We have ideas and speculation, but that's where our knowledge ends. We simply speculate about it hoping that one day, we might know the truth. Until that day, we just have to accept the fact that we can't know everything.[/QUOTE]

So you have "faith" that the truth is out there! ;)
 
[quote name='Strell']/remembers last week when everyone in here was saying no athiests or agnostics were inyourface

georgetakeismirk.jpeg[/QUOTE]

Haa haa haa. Thread over. Strell 1, all the rest of us 0.
 
It surprises me how little he knows about Christian Doctrine. In the case of human sacrifice, God never asked for humans to kill themselves for his "appeasement". God hates the idea of human sacrifice, that's the whole reason why he wiped out the Canaanites, because they practiced child sacrifices to their god Moloch. Also when he told Abraham to kill his son, was only done to see how faithful he was to God, and then God gave him an alternative sacrifice at the last minute because he hates human sacrifice. Now then, what about Jesus? God asked him to kill himself as a sacrifice didn't he? Yes he did, but we must remember who Jesus is, fully God and fully man. So God sent himself to be killed for our sake, how is that immoral?
 
[quote name='Magus8472']Sure, but isn't that really beside the point? If people need to be cowed into acting "morally," what difference does it make whether it's God or man threatening judgment?[/QUOTE]
Because I know the police really will arrest my ass if I break the law?
 
[quote name='javeryh']So you have "faith" that the truth is out there! ;)[/QUOTE]
Mulder?

No seriously, faith based on something like previous evidence is a whole 'nother thing from religious faith. You're talking about believing something with no proof vs having some sort of evidence or history to to base faith on. I have faith that the Earth will be here tomorrow based on the age of the earth and the highly unlikely chance that something will destroy it in the next few hours.
 
[quote name='Clak']No seriously, faith based on something like previous evidence is a whole 'nother thing from religious faith. You're talking about believing something with no proof vs having some sort of evidence or history to to base faith on. I have faith that the Earth will be here tomorrow based on the age of the earth and the highly unlikely chance that something will destroy it in the next few hours.[/QUOTE]

http://amfix.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/27/physicist-michio-kaku-on-super-volcano-all-you-can-do-is-run/
 
[quote name='unluckynumber11']It surprises me how little he knows about Christian Doctrine. In the case of human sacrifice, God never asked for humans to kill themselves for his "appeasement". God hates the idea of human sacrifice, that's the whole reason why he wiped out the Canaanites, because they practiced child sacrifices to their god Moloch. Also when he told Abraham to kill his son, was only done to see how faithful he was to God, and then God gave him an alternative sacrifice at the last minute because he hates human sacrifice. Now then, what about Jesus? God asked him to kill himself as a sacrifice didn't he? Yes he did, but we must remember who Jesus is, fully God and fully man. So God sent himself to be killed for our sake, how is that immoral?[/QUOTE]

So your God wanted to check how devoted Abraham was to the cause by telling him to kill his son. That sounds totally moral to me. I also thought God was all knowing, so how come he didn't already know how faithful he was?
 
[quote name='unluckynumber11']It surprises me how little he knows about Christian Doctrine. In the case of human sacrifice, God never asked for humans to kill themselves for his "appeasement". God hates the idea of human sacrifice, that's the whole reason why he wiped out the Canaanites, because they practiced child sacrifices to their god Moloch. Also when he told Abraham to kill his son, was only done to see how faithful he was to God, and then God gave him an alternative sacrifice at the last minute because he hates human sacrifice. Now then, what about Jesus? God asked him to kill himself as a sacrifice didn't he? Yes he did, but we must remember who Jesus is, fully God and fully man. So God sent himself to be killed for our sake, how is that immoral?[/QUOTE]

As someone else pointed out, the whole notion of "testing" someone to see whether they would pass..by dragging their son up a mountain and terrifying them by strapping them down and holding a knife over their chest does seem a bit crude for an omniscient being. And actually, god does seem to approve of human sacrifice. There is another story that god saw fit to leave in the bible about a man named Jephthah who promised God a sacrifice if he would help him win a battle. God did so, then Jephthah went home and slaughtered his only daughter as he had promised..and offered her up as a burnt offering. God didn't see fit to intervene in that case so he obviously doesn't have a huge problem with it/ (Judges 11: 29-39)

As for the rest of your post..You seem to be missing the point of the video. Hitch isn't attacking Jesus. I'm sure he was a swell guy. The focus is on the core doctrine of Christianity..the fact that God (despite being omnipotent) appears unable to forgive someone without demanding that something innocent be slaughtered as a sacrifice. All forgiveness for god is contingent on something innocent being killed (scapegoating)..and his anger and vengeful attitude cannot be abated any other way. In the old testament he gave explicit instructions for how sins were to be forgiven..involving the slaughter of innocent animals..rubbing the blood on your body and sprinkling it around the altar..because he enjoyed the "sweet smell" of burning blood. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus 29: 10-25&version=NIV

We humans have no problem forgiving people without setting conditions. A parent can forgive his child for a wrong action without demanding that he kill the family cat..or that he crucify his best friend, but the creator of the universe seems to lack this ability..which does makes the central Christian doctrine utterly nonsensical and laughable. You may think the following vid is a parody, but this is literally what it boils down to. Anyone who wasn't indoctrinated with this stuff and who didn't hear the Jesus story being preached in reverent tones by their respected elders while growing up will see it for the absurdity that it is. - youtube.com/watch?v=rdxeqEoDXco
 
[quote name='unluckynumber11']It surprises me how little he knows about Christian Doctrine. In the case of human sacrifice, God never asked for humans to kill themselves for his "appeasement". God hates the idea of human sacrifice, that's the whole reason why he wiped out the Canaanites, because they practiced child sacrifices to their god Moloch. Also when he told Abraham to kill his son, was only done to see how faithful he was to God, and then God gave him an alternative sacrifice at the last minute because he hates human sacrifice. Now then, what about Jesus? God asked him to kill himself as a sacrifice didn't he? Yes he did, but we must remember who Jesus is, fully God and fully man. So God sent himself to be killed for our sake, how is that immoral?[/QUOTE]

As doc pointed out, the whole notion of "testing" someone to see whether they would pass..by dragging their son up a mountain and terrifying them by strapping them down and holding a knife over their chest does seem a bit crude for an omniscient being. And actually, god does seem to approve of human sacrifice. There is another story that "god" left in the bible about a man named Jephthah who promised God a sacrifice if he would help him win a battle. God did so, then Jephthah went home and slaughtered his only daughter as he had promised..and offered her up as a burnt offering. God didn't see fit to intervene in that case so he obviously doesn't have a huge problem with it. (Judges 11: 29-39)

As for the rest of your post..You seem to be missing the point of the video. Hitch isn't attacking Jesus. I'm sure he was a swell guy. The focus is on the core doctrine of Christianity..the fact that God (despite being omnipotent) appears unable to forgive someone without demanding that something innocent be slaughtered as a sacrifice. All forgiveness for god is contingent on something innocent being killed (scapegoating)..and his anger and vengeful attitude cannot be abated any other way. In the old testament he gave explicit instructions for how sins were to be forgiven..involving the slaughter of innocent animals..rubbing the blood on your body and sprinkling it around the altar..because he enjoyed the "sweet smell" of burning blood. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2029:%2010-25&version=NIV

We humans have no problem forgiving people without setting conditions. A parent can forgive his child for a wrong action without demanding that he kill the family cat..or that he crucify his best friend, but the creator of the universe seems to lack this ability..which does makes the central Christian doctrine utterly nonsensical and laughable. You may think the following vid is a parody, but this is literally what it boils down to. (3:00) Anyone who wasn't indoctrinated with this stuff and who didn't hear the Jesus story being preached in reverent tones by their respected elders while growing up will see it for the absurdity that it is. - youtube.com/watch?v=rdxeqEoDXco
 
I got a fortune cookie the other day that said "If your mind has knowledge, let others light their candles by it."

I think I get more enjoyment out of hearing people stumble around in darkness though.

That, and fortune cookie fortunes suck these days.
 
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