Christopher Hitchens is dead

[quote name='camoor']Two things:

1) Agnosticism is a statement about the metaphysical realm in general. To limit it to the God question misses a ton of religious views.
2) Brilliant people have written tomes on the question of whether or not the spiritual ream/God/etc exists. Anyone who is not agnostic for at least a small part of their life is either simple in the head or just not being honest with themselves[/QUOTE]
Agnosticism is a method and not a view, at least according to the person who created the term.

Beyond that your second point is just stupid. I have never been an agnostic, in your sense of the word, because this is a question that can be answered. If group a says god exists, and has no proof, god does not exist. Simple. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, of which there is none, and as a result there should be no such need/thing as agnostic view points at all.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']Beyond that your second point is just stupid. I have never been an agnostic, in your sense of the word, because this is a question that can be answered. If group a says god exists, and has no proof, god does not exist. Simple. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, of which there is none, and as a result there should be no such need/thing as agnostic view points at all.[/QUOTE]

On the Abrahamic religion god thing I have no arguement. Let someone of the Abrahamic faith defend it.

But to deny any existence of supernatural phenomenon without a scintilla of thought - come on man.
 
[quote name='camoor']On the Abrahamic religion god thing I have no arguement. Let someone of the Abrahamic faith defend it.

But to deny any existence of supernatural phenomenon without a scintilla of thought - come on man.[/QUOTE]
I am very much a materialist, so yes I really do deny their existence. However I really do disagree that I did it without a scintilla of doubt, I was a former devout catholic. I studied this kind of stuff and really stopped believing when I read the demon haunted world when I was 15 as well as coming into contact with Houdini's little afterlife experiment. Can there be something else? Maybe, though probably not. There has not really been any extraordinary evidence to make me even doubt the fact that there is nothing beyond the matter of the universe, so I don't think it is wrong or dismissive to deny supernatural effects.
 
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[quote name='cindersphere']Can there be something else? Maybe, though probably not.[/QUOTE]

That's the very definition of agnostic. Which I commend you for - IMO it's foolish to dismiss all supernatural phenomenon out-of-hand.
 
Of course you do, you think people can "feel" things remotely. Any man of of good reason and logic would rightfully call that ridiculous. But I don't want to start another argument on the subject, so i'll go no further than that.
 
[quote name='camoor']Two things:

1) Agnosticism is a statement about the metaphysical realm in general. To limit it to the God question misses a ton of religious views.
2) Brilliant people have written tomes on the question of whether or not the spiritual ream/God/etc exists. Anyone who is not agnostic for at least a small part of their life is either simple in the head or just not being honest with themselves[/QUOTE]
I limit it to god because that's what I'm discussing.
 
I cringe as I write this because of the other posters in this thread, but here goes:

Why wouldn't the hardcore, anti-religion, or fully atheist folks that are usually quite vocal in this forum not look down their nose and ridicule those who have not completely dismissed the idea of a greater being or supernatural, like they do to those who believe in some sort of religion?

If you hate onions, then don't you hate a small amount of onions and a large amount of onions equally? Just confused on why folks are being commended for maybe believing in that magical pasta monster people rave about.
 
[quote name='berzirk']I cringe as I write this because of the other posters in this thread, but here goes:

Why wouldn't the hardcore, anti-religion, or fully atheist folks that are usually quite vocal in this forum not look down their nose and ridicule those who have not completely dismissed the idea of a greater being or supernatural, like they do to those who believe in some sort of religion?

If you hate onions, then don't you hate a small amount of onions and a large amount of onions equally? Just confused on why folks are being commended for maybe believing in that magical pasta monster people rave about.[/QUOTE]
LOLZ...I REALLY like that analogy and that's a very good point. One of the best analogies I've ever seen in this forum...seriously.

As one of the more vocal members of this forum, debating or criticizing people on where they lie on the theist-atheist scale doesn't really appeal to me. If someone believes in deites or supernatural forces, it's not a huge deal especially when it's more of a philisophical thing rather than a physical science thing. Although, there is some overlap in social science.
 
[quote name='berzirk']I cringe as I write this because of the other posters in this thread, but here goes:

Why wouldn't the hardcore, anti-religion, or fully atheist folks that are usually quite vocal in this forum not look down their nose and ridicule those who have not completely dismissed the idea of a greater being or supernatural, like they do to those who believe in some sort of religion?

If you hate onions, then don't you hate a small amount of onions and a large amount of onions equally? Just confused on why folks are being commended for maybe believing in that magical pasta monster people rave about.[/QUOTE]
Who is commending people on this forum for having faith?
[quote name='camoor']That's the very definition of agnostic. Which I commend you for - IMO it's foolish to dismiss all supernatural phenomenon out-of-hand.[/QUOTE]

If you are going to be slicing the hairs that thin then I will contend most people are atheist even if they do identify as a practitioner of one of the big monotheistic religions. I believe most people in the US would not kill a member of their family for religion, as evidenced by bratty children not being introduced to various sizes of the earth. As such people have doubts about the existence of their "god" and as such are atheist, since they don't accept the their "gospel" from the torah/quran/bibles or whatever they read, for what it says. As for deists, there are theories for the birth of the universe without the hand of any creator, as such any form of god is irrelevant and impotent. Since he was not in charge of the creation of everything then it seems to show that there are forces outside it's control, as such any idea of god is necessarily one that is bent by the forces of our universe and as such not supernatural. If one can not believe a god is in a supernatural realm, is it a stretch to believe there is not supernatural realm at all?

Not trying to be preachy, although reading this over it kinda of is.
 
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[quote name='berzirk']I cringe as I write this because of the other posters in this thread, but here goes:

Why wouldn't the hardcore, anti-religion, or fully atheist folks that are usually quite vocal in this forum not look down their nose and ridicule those who have not completely dismissed the idea of a greater being or supernatural, like they do to those who believe in some sort of religion?

If you hate onions, then don't you hate a small amount of onions and a large amount of onions equally? Just confused on why folks are being commended for maybe believing in that magical pasta monster people rave about.[/QUOTE]
Because to me agnostics are just atheists who have a fear of commitment. Neither beleive in god, one just hasn't made up his mind about the possibility.
 
[quote name='berzirk']I cringe as I write this because of the other posters in this thread, but here goes:

Why wouldn't the hardcore, anti-religion, or fully atheist folks that are usually quite vocal in this forum not look down their nose and ridicule those who have not completely dismissed the idea of a greater being or supernatural, like they do to those who believe in some sort of religion?

If you hate onions, then don't you hate a small amount of onions and a large amount of onions equally? Just confused on why folks are being commended for maybe believing in that magical pasta monster people rave about.[/QUOTE]

Agnosticism is pretty annoying, I don't think it's ever been a commended stance to have.

I certainly have the capacity to daydream about all the possibly supernatural explanations for life, but I wouldn't call myself agnostic because of that -- as I don't have any reason to believe those fantasies anyways. Wondering is fun, while debating about those personal superstitions is pretty silly.

So I've always agreed with Hitchens on his approach. He doesn't walk into churches on Sunday and call everyone there retarded (he's also spoken positively of theist friends of his), and often said time and again that you're welcome to believe whatever you want to. Just don't impose it on children, and keep the everyday workings of civilization secular.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogak5ZVxLyM

[quote name='Clak']Because to me agnostics are just atheists who have a fear of commitment. Neither believe in god, one just hasn't made up his mind about the possibility.[/QUOTE]

This was actually me when I was a Christian as a kid. Always had a doubt in my mind, always knew something was off, but was terrified to actually commit. But since God knows what you're thinking anyways, I suppose there's no point in hiding how you feel (Hitchens called it thought crime, lol).

And then of course they're are the more modern Christians that have warped the Bible so strongly that it basically amounts to going to church on Christmas eve, living your life as you see fit, and oh, God loves you no matter what. I don't even consider this a religion, and Hitchens rarely attacked these types of people anyways.
 
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upon Onion hatred:
Not all onions are the same. There's your straight yellow onion that gives me brutal heartburn and I hate. There's also garlic which is in the same family and is wonderful. Then there's Shallots which can be worked into something very nicely without making my throat itch.

I'd say that atheist angst comes more from the Abrhamic deals since an atheist will still fuck the brains out of one of those kooky Wiccan girls without batting an eye.

Also, the FSM/Pastafarian deal is a parody. I suppose a person could really not like the Scream series but still find joy in the "Scary Movie" knock off.
 
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[quote name='dohdough']LOLZ...I REALLY like that analogy and that's a very good point. One of the best analogies I've ever seen in this forum...seriously.

As one of the more vocal members of this forum, debating or criticizing people on where they lie on the theist-atheist scale doesn't really appeal to me. If someone believes in deites or supernatural forces, it's not a huge deal especially when it's more of a philisophical thing rather than a physical science thing. Although, there is some overlap in social science.[/QUOTE]
Every religion has it's philosophy, but it's more than that, much more. So I do disagree that it's more philosophical than physical. I even like some parts of Christian philosophy for example, but if you expect me to believe that someone rose from the dead, or walked on water, or can spontaneously heal people, that's where philosophy ends and the physical begins, and that's where the problem is.
 
[quote name='berzirk']I cringe as I write this because of the other posters in this thread, but here goes:

Why wouldn't the hardcore, anti-religion, or fully atheist folks that are usually quite vocal in this forum not look down their nose and ridicule those who have not completely dismissed the idea of a greater being or supernatural, like they do to those who believe in some sort of religion?

If you hate onions, then don't you hate a small amount of onions and a large amount of onions equally? Just confused on why folks are being commended for maybe believing in that magical pasta monster people rave about.[/QUOTE]

Maybe because I've never been accosted by Pagans asking me to accept Gaia as my personal savior.

If you want to be liked it helps to not act like a douche.
 
I think that awful music and the S&M was the real torture.

*guy rubs his chest while other guys shouts*
"The safety word is red. R-E-D. Say it right now!"
 
[quote name='davo1224']I think that awful music and the S&M was the real torture.

*guy rubs his chest while other guys shouts*
"The safety word is red. R-E-D. Say it right now!"[/QUOTE]
The only thing worse than that is when metallica combined the two.
 
[quote name='camoor']Maybe because I've never been accosted by Pagans asking me to accept Gaia as my personal savior.

If you want to be liked it helps to not act like a douche.[/QUOTE]

How many Jews have accosted you asking you to accept their faith?

You've had a lot of experiences with Native American tried acting douchy?

...I hate to be confrontational, but maybe it's not them...maybe it's you that has the problem.
 
[quote name='berzirk']How many Jews have accosted you asking you to accept their faith?

You've had a lot of experiences with Native American tried acting douchy?

...I hate to be confrontational, but maybe it's not them...maybe it's you that has the problem.[/QUOTE]

Jews and Indians - lmao they are typically pretty cool on the religious thang. I think Indian spirituality is pretty badass but wouldn't know the first thing about getting invited.

You know who I was talking about. Since you're obviously dense I'll give you a clue

tumblr_l2n0loshuJ1qzxzwwo1_400.jpg
 
[quote name='camoor']Jews and Indians - lmao they are typically pretty cool on the religious thang. I think Indian spirituality is pretty badass but wouldn't know the first thing about getting invited.

You know who I was talking about. Since you're obviously dense I'll give you a clue

tumblr_l2n0loshuJ1qzxzwwo1_400.jpg
[/QUOTE]
Personally I tend to have more respect for the those who accost you, then I do for the religious or atheistic that do not.

So let me ask you a question, why do you personally believe that those who don't accost are better in someway? Is it because they don't annoy you? Or is it that you see them as better in some other way?
 
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[quote name='cindersphere']Personally I tend to have more respect for the those who accost you, then I do for the religious or atheistic that do not.

So let me ask you a question, why do you personally believe that those who don't accost are better in someway? Is it because they don't annoy you? Or is it that you see them as better in some other way?[/QUOTE]

Do you know what accost means, the way you are using it is... odd.

Anyway, about the religion thing, I'm sure anyone who is not a Christian in America understands what I am talking about. For example I was on a metro car and this guy gets on and starts singing Christian hymns at top volume - he had a great voice but the "in your face" delivery to a (literally) captive audience was awkward to say the least.

Then there was a guy who started a traffic jam because he had to take up a lane to tell us that Christ thought we were Nazis for allowing abortion laws to exist (complete with the requisite huge posters featuring aborted fetii and swastikas). I gotta wait an extra half hour in traffic because the cops are trying to talk down this lunatic off of his Jesus-high - come on, I don't have time for this shit.

For me it's not a big deal more like an occasional annoyance. Also it's true that most Christians are generally pretty cool. But the ones who aren't are major turn-offs.
 
[quote name='camoor']Then there was a guy who started a traffic jam because he had to take up a lane to tell us that Christ thought we were Nazis for allowing abortion laws to exist (complete with the requisite huge posters featuring aborted fetii and swastikas). I gotta wait an extra half hour in traffic because the cops are trying to talk down this lunatic off of his Jesus-high - come on, I don't have time for this shit.[/QUOTE]

Curious - what's your thoughts on groups like Occupy or Code Pink when they block traffic?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Curious - what's your thoughts on groups like Occupy or Code Pink when they block traffic?[/QUOTE]

They never blocked me in traffic (and I live in the DC metro area) - but I'll let you know if it ever happens. Did they ever block rush hour traffic - I've had occasion to drive by the park and they never added a minute to my commute.

Once some asshole on a tractor really shut traffic down around here, he wanted (of all things) more subsidies for tobacco farming. Most of the time it's accidents or cars breaking down.
 
[quote name='camoor']They never blocked me in traffic (and I live in the DC metro area) - but I'll let you know if it ever happens.[/QUOTE]

Translation: It doesn't effect me, so I don't care. 'I got mine.'

Okay then.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Translation: It doesn't effect me, so I don't care. 'I got mine.'

Okay then.[/QUOTE]

lol no I just had never heard of them blocking rush hour traffic, the only incidents I heard of was when they protested specific events like tea party conventions.

Do you have any examples, if you can show me where they have blocked rush hour traffic I'll definately give you my opinion on it.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Here's one fairly recent story:
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Occupy-protest-blocks-traffic-marches-on-bridge-2274874.php[/QUOTE]

Yeah well I disagree with that specific action. They should have their protest, make their voices known to politicians and the financial elite, but insofar as it can be helped they shouldn't be making life harder for the 99% who they represent.

Don't think I support everything Occupy does either. I've heard some of the protestors say some dopey things on Howard Stern and Comedy Central, I realize these pieces were being played for laughs so they picked the outliers, but they were really dopey statements.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']Religion has been a part of much worse things than slowing down commuters.[/QUOTE]

For sure - I was asked how it affected me. As I said for me - in a city like DC - anecdotally - it's been more of an annoyance.
 
The funny thing is, I don't actually mind this type of non-violent, civil disobedience.

Though there *are* better ways to get your message across (for both Occupy and ranting Jesus guy)...
 
[quote name='camoor']For sure - I was asked how it affected me. As I said for me - in a city like DC - anecdotally - it's been more of an annoyance.[/QUOTE]

Just another quick link:
http://www.nbcwashington.com/blogs/...-Lose-Patience-With-Protesters-135270358.html

District Mayor Vincent Gray said Thursday that the public is starting "to lose patience" with the “Occupy DC” protests that are increasingly blocking traffic.

About 60 people were arrested Wednesday night after a rush-hour protest caused massive traffic jams downtown.
Click to expand...

Blocking traffic has been a pretty big tactic of Occupy protests to attempt to get their message out.
 
[quote name='camoor']Do you know what accost means, the way you are using it is... odd.

Anyway, about the religion thing, I'm sure anyone who is not a Christian in America understands what I am talking about. For example I was on a metro car and this guy gets on and starts singing Christian hymns at top volume - he had a great voice but the "in your face" delivery to a (literally) captive audience was awkward to say the least.

Then there was a guy who started a traffic jam because he had to take up a lane to tell us that Christ thought we were Nazis for allowing abortion laws to exist (complete with the requisite huge posters featuring aborted fetii and swastikas). I gotta wait an extra half hour in traffic because the cops are trying to talk down this lunatic off of his Jesus-high - come on, I don't have time for this shit.

For me it's not a big deal more like an occasional annoyance. Also it's true that most Christians are generally pretty cool. But the ones who aren't are major turn-offs.[/QUOTE]
I am an atheist and live in America, so I very much understand your position. So it was the second more than the first.
I used accost because whenever I have been truthful about my lack of religion Christians get very confrontational very quickly. In this case I believed it was the correct term to use.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']I am an atheist and live in America, so I very much understand your position. So it was the second more than the first.
I used accost because whenever I have been truthful about my lack of religion Christians get very confrontational very quickly. In this case I believed it was the correct term to use.[/QUOTE]

Really - where do you live (like as in California or midwest or what have you)
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']Religion has been a part of much worse things than slowing down commuters.[/QUOTE]

Spyware, too many open applications, and not enough RAM are waaay bigger problems than religion's impact on computers. Sheesh.
 
A quick aside from this conversation:

Whenever I visit CAG, the first thing I do is go to the User CP.

Saw that only one subscribed thread had a new post.

Saw that it was this one, posted in by Berzirk.

Thought to myself, "Eh. I don't really feel like reading the Hitchens thread," and closed the tab.

Thought to myself, "There's always money in the banana stand."

Opened the tab back up and came to this thread to try and figure out the connection.

Damn you, berzirk.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']A quick aside from this conversation:

Whenever I visit CAG, the first thing I do is go to the User CP.

Saw that only one subscribed thread had a new post.

Saw that it was this one, posted in by Berzirk.

Thought to myself, "Eh. I don't really feel like reading the Hitchens thread," and closed the tab.

Thought to myself, "There's always money in the banana stand."

Opened the tab back up and came to this thread to try and figure out the connection.

Damn you, berzirk.[/QUOTE]

:oops:
 
[quote name='camoor']Really - where do you live (like as in California or midwest or what have you)[/QUOTE]
California, central valley to be exact. Although maybe not for long if the state decides to build the high speed rail through my current residence.

[quote name='berzirk']Spyware, too many open applications, and not enough RAM are waaay bigger problems than religion's impact on computers. Sheesh.[/QUOTE]

:rofl:
 
[quote name='camoor']Jews and Indians - lmao they are typically pretty cool on the religious thang. I think Indian spirituality is pretty badass but wouldn't know the first thing about getting invited.

You know who I was talking about. Since you're obviously dense I'll give you a clue

tumblr_l2n0loshuJ1qzxzwwo1_400.jpg
[/QUOTE]
:lol: I have to save that picture.
 
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