CIA 'running secret terror jails'

[alonzomourning23]

The CIA is running a network of secret prison facilities around the world to hold high-profile terror suspects, according to a US newspaper report.



Such prisons are, or have been, located in Eastern Europe, Afghanistan and Thailand, the Washington Post claims.

It says more than 100 people have been sent to the facilities, known as "black sites", since they were set up in the wake of the 11 September attacks.

An intelligence agency spokesman told the BBC the CIA declined to comment.

Questioned about the report, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said: "I am not going into discussing any specific intelligence activities.

"I would say that the president's most important responsibility is to protect the American people. It's a responsibility he takes very seriously."

A Thai government spokesman denied playing host to secret detention facilities.

Central element

The Washington Post quotes current and former intelligence officers as saying that some top terror suspects are being held in an Eastern European country in a compound dating from Soviet times.

Its report says the covert prison system, financed by the CIA, has operated at various times in eight countries, as well as at the US naval base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

"The hidden global internment network is a central element in the CIA's unconventional war on terrorism," the paper says.

Details of the system "are known to only a handful of officials in the United States and, usually, only to the president and a few top intelligence officers in each host country".

Almost nothing is known about who is held, the interrogation methods used, or how decisions are made about how long they are detained.

Closely guarded

The names of the Eastern European countries allegedly involved were withheld at the request of senior US officials, the Post says, for fear their disclosure could put operations at risk.

The whereabouts of high-profile terror suspects is a closely guarded secret in Washington, says the BBC's Pentagon correspondent Adam Brookes.

The fate of such men as 11 September suspect Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is simply a mystery, our correspondent says, but there has long been an assumption that they are held in secret facilities outside the US other than Guantanamo Bay.

Individuals with close links to the intelligence agencies say the US government sees a compelling case for keeping suspected al-Qaeda operatives incarcerated secretly on foreign soil.

That way the suspects are not able to contest their detention in American courts and can be interrogated over a long period, our correspondent says.

The US has in the past faced questions over its use of "rendition", a process by which terror suspects are sent for interrogation by security officials in other countries, some of which are accused of using torture.

In August, human rights group Amnesty International called on the US to reveal details of its alleged secret detention of suspects abroad.

The group highlighted the case of two Yemeni men who claimed they were held in secret, underground US jails for more than 18 months without being charged. During that time, they say, they were tortured for four days by the Jordanian intelligence services.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4400728.stm

 

[PittsburghAfterDark]

Better to jail a rabid animal than have that rabid animal kill you or your countrymen.

I don't care where they jail them. I don't care what they do to them. They're vermin and scum of the Earth and douchebags like you would rather criticize people and policies that keep you safe in your bed at night than the people sworn to kill you at any cost.

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -George Orwell

Now this is a man that lived in fear of big government and a socialist mindset but understood that without a line of protection the only thing that kept free men free and safe was the warrior class. If you're threatened with beheading, held hostage, or bombed; lying wounded and left for dead and a masked gunman stands over you with an AK-47 I want you to tell him you're sensitive to the plight him and his "Holy Warriors" must face. He won't understand you, will laugh at you and your brain and head will make a nice grey and red splotch on the ground and pieces of your skull will be stuck in his boot laces.

However you will have died holding the high ground to which I will say "Good show old man!".

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Better to jail a rabid animal than have that rabid animal kill you or your countrymen.

I don't care where they jail them. I don't care what they do to them. They're vermin and scum of the Earth and douchebags like you would rather criticize people and policies that keep you safe in your bed at night than the people sworn to kill you at any cost.

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -George Orwell

Now this is a man that lived in fear of big government and a socialist mindset but understood that without a line of protection the only thing that kept free men free and safe was the warrior class. If you're threatened with beheading, held hostage, or bombed; lying wounded and left for dead and a masked gunman stands over you with an AK-47 I want you to tell him you're sensitive to the plight him and his "Holy Warriors" must face. He won't understand you, will laugh at you and your brain and head will make a nice grey and red splotch on the ground and pieces of your skull will be stuck in his boot laces.

However you will have died holding the high ground to which I will say "Good show old man!".[/QUOTE]

Why try to fix a problem when you can just throw a bandage over it, right? All you do is take care of the immediate symptom, you don't bother with trying to prevent anything long term. It's much easier when you break everything down into good and evil, doesn't require much strategy or thought.

 

[PittsburghAfterDark]

Do you know you're mentally deranged and need professional help?

Do you honestly believe anything we do will stop the groundswell and hatred of America and the West by those self-professed Holy Warriors? Do you think that if we just showed more sensitivity they still wouldn't want to kill you?

Are you so far gone that you don't even realize your words are those of a deranged and warped individual with aboslutely no grasp of the mindset of your enemy?

It's much easier when you break everything down into good and evil, doesn't require much strategy or thought.

I can identify evil. You can not. I know that those that want to kill me, you and my countrymen and those of different religions, skin colors and nationalities from non-Islamic states are evil. How do you see them as good, noble and worthy of respect or any rights?

 

[alonzomourning23]

How do you see them as good, noble and worthy of respect.......?

Where did I suggest that?

worthy of.... any rights?

There are ways that a respectable military force conducts itself, and ways a respectable nations conducts itself. Some of our behavior is of the type you'd expect from our enemies, but not from the supposed "good guys".

But, in this case, rights are also a means to an end. People aren't born terrorists, their personal environment and surroundings greatly alter the life of a person. Certain conditions breed more terrorists than others. By continously clamping down, without any regard for the rule of law, we are doing nothing to prevent terrorists from growing in number. Many hate both sides, both our cause and the terrorists cause. Why not do as much as we can to focus all the anger on the terrorists, instead of sharing it with them? We do nothing to take advantage of the anger most muslims have towards senseless acts of terrorism. We can't be everywhere, we can't control everything, you have to make people want to work with you.

I can't present my feeling any more clearly than this jordanian official:

“I thought all of this was behind us,” says a bitter Jordanian official who’s usually regarded as a close friend of Washington. “I thought our kids wouldn’t have to grow up talking about wars the way I did—1967 and 1973 and 1982. But now you’ve done it. You’ve f—ked another generation of Arabs.”

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3068634/

And the way this administration operates, we just continue to do that.

 

[PittsburghAfterDark]

Now let's identify those "wars" 1967 (Six Day War), started by Arab states. 1973 (Yom Kippur War), started by Arab states. 1982 (Israel invades Lebanon), Israeli self-defence denying Lebanon as a staging ground for terrorist incursions and rocket attacks under the protection of the Syrian army and air force.

If you're going to use quotes at least understand that all the basis of the quotes were all the result of offensive Arab military actions and indifference to having their lands used as terrorist staging areas and their constant and complete defeat.

You are truly mentaly ill. Please seek professional help immediately.

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Now let's identify those "wars" 1967 (Six Day War), started by Arab states. 1973 (Yom Kippur War), started by Arab states. 1982 (Israel invades Lebanon), Israeli self-defence denying Lebanon as a staging ground for terrorist incursions and rocket attacks under the protection of the Syrian army and air force.

If you're going to use quotes at least understand that all the basis of the quotes were all the result of offensive Arab military actions and indifference to having their lands used as terrorist staging areas and their constant and complete defeat.

You are truly mentaly ill. Please seek professional help immediately.[/QUOTE]

I'm not going to debate the wars, since justifying those wars is not the point of the quote. The basis of the quote is another war that arabs feel humiliated by and are angered from. That's the basis of that quote. That quote fits many u.s. actions as well.

 

[PittsburghAfterDark]

[quote name='alonzomourning23']I'm not going to debate the wars, since justifying those wars is not the point of the quote. The basis of the quote is another war that arabs feel humiliated by and are angered from. That's the basis of that quote. That quote fits many u.s. actions as well.[/QUOTE]

You're expressing empathy with a person who thinks the Arab world is being humiliated and angered because they start wars they lose! Do you not see this! Where in your brain can you not figure out that the humiliation Arabs and Muslims express and are outraged over is their own creation!

The exportation and world wide hunt for terrorist suspects is also their creation! You want to not get ed with, humiliated and defeated? Stop condoning and expressing support for attacks on enemies that will kick the everlovingshit out of you!

I understand though with thorazine and regular counseling you may someday stop being a threat to yourself and others with your wrongheaded and pigheaded view of the world where we are to blame for everything that Arabs and Muslims are enraged about. Maybe someday you can begin to understand America is not the cause of the all that's wrong in the Arab world and that their complete lack of political and personal freedoms, their desire to start wars they cannot win and encouragement of murderous individuals to undertake actions that will affect millions of their fellow believers and countrymen might have something to do with the rage they feel.

Arabs and Muslims are like the teenagers that listen to goth music, dress in black, read dreadful awful poetry and then blame society they're so damn ing glum.

Of course though, none of that matters. It's America's fault. We must be more sensitive. We must be caring. We must show respect and deference.

I want you to do some work with rabid animals. Tell me how a calm soothing voice and a soft touch works. Let me know how that charitable effort turns out mmmkay?

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']You're expressing empathy with a person who thinks the Arab world is being humiliated and angered because they start wars they lose! Do you not see this! Where in your brain can you not figure out that the humiliation Arabs and Muslims express and are outraged over is their own creation!

The exportation and world wide hunt for terrorist suspects is also their creation! You want to not get ed with, humiliated and defeated? Stop condoning and expressing support for attacks on enemies that will kick the everlovingshit out of you!

I understand though with thorazine and regular counseling you may someday stop being a threat to yourself and others with your wrongheaded and pigheaded view of the world where we are to blame for everything that Arabs and Muslims are enraged about. Maybe someday you can begin to understand America is not the cause of the all that's wrong in the Arab world and that their complete lack of political and personal freedoms, their desire to start wars they cannot win and encouragement of murderous individuals to undertake actions that will affect millions of their fellow believers and countrymen might have something to do with the rage they feel.

Arabs and Muslims are like the teenagers that listen to goth music, dress in black, read dreadful awful poetry and then blame society they're so damn ing glum.

Of course though, none of that matters. It's America's fault. We must be more sensitive. We must be caring. We must show respect and deference.

I want you to do some work with rabid animals. Tell me how a calm soothing voice and a soft touch works. Let me know how that charitable effort turns out mmmkay?[/QUOTE]

I really shouldn't have expected anything more.

 

[PittsburghAfterDark]

Yeah, being called a horses ass because you're a horses ass is exactly what you should expect.

Roll your eyes at that bitch.

 

[kakomu]

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Yeah, being called a horses ass because you're a horses ass is exactly what you should expect.

Roll your eyes at that bitch.[/QUOTE]

wow. For not caring, your words sure are getting quite heated here.

 

[mykevermin]

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']I don't care where they jail them. I don't care what they do to them. They're vermin and scum of the Earth[/QUOTE]

But you can also understand, having been enraged by the multiple beheading videos yourself, that out actions as a nation, whether in secret prisons, or at abu ghraib, certainly help blur that line between "good" and "evil" that you find to be so very clear, right? You understand, by virtue of the very reaction to violent acts on Americans (and a few Brits), that by treating people in this way, you are, in fact, emboldening their unlocked compatriots, in addition to reifying the beliefs of those locked up (which means, in the case of those who aren't terrorists, such as the chinese muslims at Guantanamo, you're creating new enemies). It's simply a matter of understanding that treating people inhumanely has no positive effect in the war on terror. I understand that you view these people to be subhuman and deserving of nothing less; I think that's a morally deplorable position, but that aside, you must understand they very basic points that (1) this is doing nothing to help the US' international image at a time in history when it is crucial to rebuild, and (2) there is not going to be any positive functional benefit from abusing these people; any benefits outweigh the costs, unless, of course, you're simply seeking sadism as an end in itself. That would not surprise me.

Another aspect of this is the secretive element of it. It furthers peoples' claims that the Bush administration supports torture explicitly as a policy, rather than covertly. It bolsters the claims of those who argue that abu ghraib was not an anomaly, and it makes people like Cheney look bad for being an advocate for torture (though more subtle than that). It makes Bush look precisely how he is viewed by liberals: secretive, coercive, exploitative, hateful, disrespectful towards international laws and disrespectful towards the geneva conventions. With that in mind, and if this becomes a larger story in the media, do you really think that Bush can publicly say he's doing to veto the defense budget if it includes anti-torture provisions? It's bad enough that he was willing to do so; now there is salient evidence *why* he would veto it.

 

[evanft]

Remember when PAD was bitching about name-calling and what not in that other thread?

 

[mykevermin]

[quote name='evanft']that other thread?[/QUOTE]

your grammar and sentence structure implies that there's only one thread; how dare you lie so blatantly to us!

 

[Kayden]

Let me speak as a part of the "uneducated masses."

I really don't care to follow the news. Its just people seeking ratings and money by glamorizing the attrocities we commit against ourselves. All me knowing that a 12 year old raped his sister will do for me is make me detest humanity more. I really don't want to read about things that frustrait me because I know that we're all more or less powerless to stop them.

Having said that...

The little bit I do catch does concern me. So far there are 3 countries that have had major issues with their sizable and growing population. The US, France and Denmark. Planes flown into buildings, riots across cities and 'artists' shot for their beliefs. Some of you are going to say 'we'll, its because they're poor' or that the media is biased. Being poor is cause to be discontent, especially when its "caused" by the government. However, it's not sufficient reason enough to tear through a town lighting other peoples cars on fire. Its deplorable, dispicable, ignorant, stupid, retarded and all other kinds of negative terms I don't feel like listing. Anyone caught vandalizing property like that should be shot on principle. What the are you doing throwing moltov cocktails? Thats arson and attempted murder. If you're going to act like a rabid animal, you should be put down like a rabid animal.

I'm not going to side with PAD and say their all a bunch of useless camel jockies. However, I'm not going to agree with the rest of you saying they're just misunderstood. Misunderstood is getting a red car instead of a blue car. Misunderstood is meeting at 7 instead of 8. Misunderstood is NOT gunning down a man on his bike in broad day light for having differing views AND BEING PROUD OF IT. That is senseless barbarism.

Personally, I don't know any muslims (that I know of) nor do I really know any devout catholics. However, both groups are pretty much composed of two types of people. Those that take their spiritual texts as guildlines to lead a better life and those that hold their holy books over the head over others to oppress them. Bombing infidels and bombing abortion clinics sound pretty close to me. I think we'd all be better off if both groups lost their extremists.

Finally, I find it rather unsettling that a religion known for its overzealous followers seem to have sizable masses in most major cities in most developed countries... Big deal, so do the Chinese... but when was the last time a Chinese, Mexican, or Ethiopian person made the news for blowing himself to hell on a crowded bus to show religious conviction? Maybe I'm just paranoid.

 

[MrBadExample]

Remember when Dick Durbin was viciously denounced for making the gulag comparison? Looks like he wasn't far off.

If we, as a country, refuse to hold ourselves to higher morals than our enemies, we lose.

The White House wants the glory of capturing someone like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, but then rather than try them for the crimes they committed, they'd prefer to hide them away for questioning at best, torture at the worst. How long ago did we capture this guy? He can't possibly have current information. I won't argue that when he was first captured we should have tried to get info from him, but at some point, if you claim to be a nation of laws, you have to put him on trial.

I fear this administration has done more to recruit and embolden terrorists than it has to stop them.

 

[bignick]

Even without the secret prisons, I still sleep well at night.

 

[alonzomourning23]

[quote name='MrBadExample']? He can't possibly have current information. I won't argue that when he was first captured we should have tried to get info from him, but at some point, if you claim to be a nation of laws, you have to put him on trial.
[/QUOTE]

Would you want to put on trial someone you tortured?

 

[evanft]

Wow, BigNick is fat. Stop eating so damn much.

 

[alonzomourning23]

It looks like a toy gun I had as a kid.

 

[elprincipe]

[quote name='MrBadExample']If we, as a country, refuse to hold ourselves to higher morals than our enemies, we lose.[/QUOTE]

I don't agree with you a lot, so I thought I'd chime in in agreement where I did. +1

 

[evanft]

[quote name='elprincipe']I don't agree with you a lot, so I thought I'd chime in in agreement where I did. +1[/QUOTE]

Consensus FTW.