Collateral Murder

[quote name='IRHari']Exactly, the Sergeant Schultz response. I see nussing, NUSSING![/QUOTE]

It's more like I've done nothing. We've been sitting here talking about it for years without doing anything. That's the worst part.
 
[quote name='willardhaven']It's more like I've done nothing. We've been sitting here talking about it for years without doing anything. That's the worst part.[/QUOTE]

I voted against Bush in 2004 and against McCain in 2008.

What more can I do? Write a stern letter? Get arrested at an antiwar rally so I can't escape the country during martial law?
 
The way I see it, if the roles were reversed and it were American citizens being fired upon and killed, we would be outraged.
 
Who's going to invade us though? It's nice to think if the roles would be reversed but that's just a logic exercise. It has no real world implications at all.

It's kind of like when white people pretend to wonder what life would be like if brown people ran the world up to this point.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']What is the big deal again?[/QUOTE]

I think the big deal is the way the military (and our government) lied about the chain of events and tried to pretend like no mistakes were made and nothing important happened.
 
What if the military admitted everytime they made a mistake? We'd be after heads and sooner or later, there wouldn't be any leaders willing to do what it takes because they're afraid to be crucified by the media.

Also, do you really want soldiers that are emotionally unstable and crying over a horrible mistake like this? I don't want to be callous but there's no room for emotion like that over there. So what do you do when you can't cry? You laugh. Not because it's appropriate but because you can't do anything else to let it out. It's a coping mechanism and I'm not going to condemn soldiers for an inappropriate emotional response in a warzone.
 
[quote name='depascal22']What if the military admitted everytime they made a mistake? We'd be after heads and sooner or later, there wouldn't be any leaders willing to do what it takes because they're afraid to be crucified by the media.

Also, do you really want soldiers that are emotionally unstable and crying over a horrible mistake like this? I don't want to be callous but there's no room for emotion like that over there. So what do you do when you can't cry? You laugh. Not because it's appropriate but because you can't do anything else to let it out. It's a coping mechanism and I'm not going to condemn soldiers for an inappropriate emotional response in a warzone.[/QUOTE]

I'm not suggesting that the military openly come out every time there's a mistake. But they shouldn't lie and try to cover up their mistakes either.

You don't gain someone's trust by lying to them. If we want the people in these countries to trust us, we need to be honest.
 
[quote name='depascal22']
Also, do you really want soldiers that are emotionally unstable and crying over a horrible mistake like this? I don't want to be callous but there's no room for emotion like that over there. So what do you do when you can't cry? You laugh. Not because it's appropriate but because you can't do anything else to let it out. It's a coping mechanism and I'm not going to condemn soldiers for an inappropriate emotional response in a warzone.[/QUOTE]


I can see where you're coming from, but the real problem here is how badly they just wanted to SHOOT. If I was walking down that street with a hedgeclipper, you think I'd be posting this right now? Who's to say they wanted to cry in the first place, they were just there providing eyes in the sky. It's not like their childhood friend's brains just got blown all over their face. As overwhelming as it is, somebod(ies)y needs to be held accountable for shit like this. Examples need to be made. Use SERIOUS discretion, VALUE human life. This isn't a COD lobby. We don't win just because we had the highest kill count. This is a thing called "Real life", and if they were a bit better versed in the history of war, maybe there wouldn't be any dead civvies on their hands. Friendly fire happens, but this was unacceptable.
 
Again, you're acting like you know the actual situation on the ground. A few minutes of grainy video does not equal the whole story.

If you'd be in or are in the military, then you'd know a COD lobby mirrors the attitudes of young marines and soldiers on the ground. I've trained with the marines and they all come off as arrogant maladjusted pricks. Problem is that those are the only kind of guys you want to send into a warzone.

Again, "real life" is what people want to show you. Even when you see all the facts, your past experiences color a situation differently. Two people can see the same exact incident and say two different things happened.

Stop acting like this is a black and white issue.
 
[quote name='IRHari']The way I see it, if the roles were reversed and it were American citizens being fired upon and killed, we would be outraged.[/QUOTE]

If the roles were reversed, I wouldn't be holding a video camera.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Again, you're acting like you know the actual situation on the ground. 38 minutes of grainy video does not equal the whole story.
[/QUOTE]

Fixed. Again, to echo willardhaven, we know this is going on. Gen. McChrystal has acknowledged a large # of people have been killed who were civilians and had nothing to do with actual terrorism. Difference here is we can see it being done here, and thus /outrage.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Fixed. Again, to echo willardhaven, we know this is going on. Gen. McChrystal has acknowledged a large # of people have been killed who were civilians and had nothing to do with actual terrorism. Difference here is we can see it being done here, and thus /outrage.[/QUOTE]

You don't think the lies and cover up have anything to do with the outrage?
 
Problem is those maladjusted pricks have to come home eventually if they aren't killed. Then they have a hard time adjusting to normal society. You end up with trained killers walking around not unlike time bombs just waiting to go off. That or they end up working for an outfit like blackwater where they can continue to act like maladjusted pricks.
 
[quote name='depascal22']What if the military admitted everytime they made a mistake? We'd be after heads and sooner or later, there wouldn't be any leaders willing to do what it takes because they're afraid to be crucified by the media.

Also, do you really want soldiers that are emotionally unstable and crying over a horrible mistake like this? I don't want to be callous but there's no room for emotion like that over there. So what do you do when you can't cry? You laugh. Not because it's appropriate but because you can't do anything else to let it out. It's a coping mechanism and I'm not going to condemn soldiers for an inappropriate emotional response in a warzone.[/QUOTE]

Well, what about the emotions of the innocent people over there? The ones who have their loved ones gunned down for no good reason? Really, I understand what you are saying, but of course, this is strictly from your point of view (as an American) and completely discards what the people we are occupying are going through. Check my post below for responses from the families of those murdered. And a veteran.
 
Families of Victims of 2007 US Helicopter Killing React to Leaked Video
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/4/1...ims_of_2007_us


“This Is How These Soldiers Were Trained to Act”–Veteran of Military Unit Involved in 2007 Baghdad Helicopter Shooting Says Incident Is Part of Much Larger Problem
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/4/1..._soldiers_were

If you are interested, check out my blog post for today on this topic and comment. The previous one started a shit storm. Mostly a bunch of people who obviously never engaged in political discourse but definitely a FEW who think things through. At least a lot of people did see this news.
http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/blog.php?b=13942
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn04092010.html

Digging bullets out of your victims' bodies with a knife is worse than ripping somebody apart with 30mm cannon from hundreds of feet away.[/QUOTE]

That is true in a sense. It shows conscious effort to coverup a crime. I saw this covered on Democracy Now the same day they covered the Wikileaks video. You watch DN?
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/4/6/after_first_denying_involvement_us_forces

I was talking to my conservative friend who is in the military and its incredible that he believes that fox news is the best news out there. I mean how do people believe that its the BEST? Very scary.
 
AN OPEN LETTER OF RECONCILIATION & RESPONSIBILITY TO THE IRAQI PEOPLE
From Current and Former Members of the U.S. Military

Peace be with you.

To all of those who were injured or lost loved ones during the July 2007 Baghdad shootings depicted in the “Collateral Murder” Wikileaks video:

We write to you, your family, and your community with awareness that our words and actions can never restore your losses.

We are both soldiers who occupied your neighborhood for 14 months. Ethan McCord pulled your daughter and son from the van, and when doing so, saw the faces of his own children back home. Josh Stieber was in the same company but was not there that day, though he contributed to the your pain, and the pain of your community on many other occasions.

There is no bringing back all that was lost. What we seek is to learn from our mistakes and do everything we can to tell others of our experiences and how the people of the United States need to realize we have done and are doing to you and the people of your country. We humbly ask you what we can do to begin to repair the damage we caused.

We have been speaking to whoever will listen, telling them that what was shown in the Wikileaks video only begins to depict the suffering we have created. From our own experiences, and the experiences of other veterans we have talked to, we know that the acts depicted in this video are everyday occurrences of this war: this is the nature of how U.S.-led wars are carried out in this region.

We acknowledge our part in the deaths and injuries of your loved ones as we tell Americans what we were trained to do and what we carried out in the name of "god and country". The soldier in the video said that your husband shouldn't have brought your children to battle, but we are acknowledging our responsibility for bringing the battle to your neighborhood, and to your family. We did unto you what we would not want done to us.

More and more Americans are taking responsibility for what was done in our name. Though we have acted with cold hearts far too many times, we have not forgotten our actions towards you. Our heavy hearts still hold hope that we can restore inside our country the acknowledgment of your humanity, that we were taught to deny.

Our government may ignore you, concerned more with its public image. It has also ignored many veterans who have returned physically injured or mentally troubled by what they saw and did in your country. But the time is long overdue that we say that the value of our nation's leaders no longer represent us. Our secretary of defense may say the U.S. won't lose its reputation over this, but we stand and say that our reputation's importance pales in comparison to our common humanity.

We have asked our fellow veterans and service-members, as well as civilians both in the United States and abroad, to sign in support of this letter, and to offer their names as a testimony to our common humanity, to distance ourselves from the destructive policies of our nation's leaders, and to extend our hands to you.

With such pain, friendship might be too much to ask. Please accept our apology, our sorrow, our care, and our dedication to change from the inside out. We are doing what we can to speak out against the wars and military policies responsible for what happened to you and your loved ones. Our hearts are open to hearing how we can take any steps to support you through the pain that we have caused.

Solemnly and Sincerely,
Josh Stieber, former specialist, U.S. Army
Ethan McCord, former specialist, U.S. Army

http://org2.democracyinaction.org/o/5966/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=2724
 
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