Complaint to Gamestop.

[quote name='soonersfan60']Io, you didn't break them in early enough. My son is 12 now, but has been uber-careful with all of my stuff since he was at least 6. Now his friends are another story ! Ugh ! Don't get me started on how poorly they treat things--even common household items...[/QUOTE]

But I HAVE been breaking them in! That's why I think it is some genetic abnormality (clearly a dominant trait as they got it from my wife and not me). No matter how many times I tell them/show them how to handle discs they just don't get it. They also tend to pile them up loose on top of the DVD player (this is more so for DVD's, they are a bit more careful with games). Too lazy to open the cases and put them back in :roll:.

But I'm absolutely dreading when they start having friends over and switching discs/messing with systems on their own. They are all a bit small for that now, though the neighbor kid wants to come over and play the Wii all the time because they can't find one anywhere. But for now most of the game switching/etc is done by me or my wife (though the kids do somehow get up there and change games when I'm not around - thus the smudges). I'm *really* looking forward to random teenagers tramping thtough my house. I may just take ALL the games and lock them up in my office at that point :lol:. (But who am I kidding, if they are anything like I was, they'll figure that out in short order).

Anyway, enough of my OT rantings...
 
Io, you have to put your foot down and tell them if they don't handle them correctly they get put away. (It may be a little too late for that kind of drastic measure, though.) And you are right to dread the teenage friends. Right now my son doesn't mind, but I am always within earshot to step in and "help" when I can tell something isn't going to end well. He really tries, but some of them think it is no big deal and if more than one come over, look out !

EDIT: Really, though, my son is very good about those things. I am probably just lucky, and it might be unrealistic to think that others can be "trained" to be like that.
 
[quote name='IAmTheCheapestGamer']Someone is mad because GS corporate didn't give them this years nickel raise, I see. Or, did you miss out on the coveted Easter ham prize by selling too few extended warranties or pre orders? Which is it? [/QUOTE]

I have not worked in the game industry in 3 years. I actually have a real job that pays twice as much and less stress as I don't have to deal with stupid customers who think Mario Kart is on PS2 and give me looks like I just killed their children when I offerthem $10 for there 10 year old N64 system.
 
fuck gamestop.

And thats exactly what CAG does when they only buy there when using loopholes like the Open Season/Far Cry for SPM deal, and some of the good deals with the 50% bonus thing.

Having all of those Open Season/Far Cry copies sitting unsold, that they purchased for around $23 apeice (since SPM or any $50 Wii game costs them around $47 to purchase and ship to stores, aside from overhead) never be sold until they reach $5 or less is great. I know I'll laugh every time I see a pile of these at my gamestops, and this is happening.
 
[quote name='nyprimus4']I figured out they don't give a fuck about traded in stuff when my friend got his PSP in '05 and bought a used memory stick from GS and there was porn on it when we got back to his house to put some music on to try it out.[/quote]


You need to realize a few things about this.

First, that happened at Target with a NEW memory stick as well. I think I heard something about Wal-Mart and/or Circuit City, but I'm not sure.

Second, they've totally changed all those rules. 2 years is a long time in retail. For about half a year, you couldn't even find used PSP sticks at GameStop because they didn't take them.

And third, why would anybody complain about free porn?
 
[quote name='jer7583']fuck gamestop.

And thats exactly what CAG does when they only buy there when using loopholes like the Open Season/Far Cry for SPM deal, and some of the good deals with the 50% bonus thing.

Having all of those Open Season/Far Cry copies sitting unsold, that they purchased for around $23 apeice (since SPM or any $50 Wii game costs them around $47 to purchase and ship to stores, aside from overhead) never be sold until they reach $5 or less is great. I know I'll laugh every time I see a pile of these at my gamestops, and this is happening.[/QUOTE]

This is really funny, its even better than not shopping there because you are doing more damage by taking advantage of a deal than by not shopping there. Thats what I tried to accomplish last year with the trade 3 for 10$ extra, make their store stocked with tons of games they will never sell and when the price drops hit they have to reduce the price of the used copies as well! I also did it with the Nintendogs preorder many eons ago, it was 4 gba games for a copy of nintendogs, and I stuck em with the 4 crappiest gba games I had, most were picked up for a dollar or 2 at yard sales, so I got a copy of Nintendogs for like.. 5$, some of those games traded in for like .75 cents!!!

The problem is the stores here know me and they know my tendencies, and that I will do whatever it takes to get the best deal possible, thus they do not welcome me in their stores anymore haha!

I don't see why your not returning the merchandise though, use your reciept and leave a complaint on their website, if you cannot find a store near you to return it go to gamestop.com and use the store locator on some game and it will give you all the locations of the nearest stores, you can return it to any gamestop or ebgames store. Returned merchandise also hurts the store as well.

The soccer moms are the ones they are targeting now, they want kids to trade in their games because they know thats where the most profit is. They also don't care about condition of the disk or system as long as it works, and they LOVE saving 5$ on that used, scratched up game. The reason why the disks are so scratched is because the only people stupid enough to trade games to gamestop are little kids. Rather than dealing with the hardcore gamers and picky collectors they have chosen to deal with the crowd that is the easiest to please when their kid wants a game.
 
I've bought quite a lot from GS/EB recently, but only because they've either had good deals (Gamecube $5 off coupon) or odd stuff in good condition (Beyond Good and Evil for GC). They also have cheap accessories, which help in my quest for component cables.

Would I ever trade anything in there? Hell no. Do I still buy stuff? Sure. I admit, I got some stuff in the B2G1 Xbox sale that was below my quality standards... but that's just because it was tough to find 3 things I really wanted in good shape at one place.

Condition is important to me, but so is money. Splinter Cell a little beat up? Sure, but for $3, I don't feel I have much room to bitch.

They're evil, sure, but do remember that not everyone lives in metropolitan areas. I at school right now, and back home I have two awesome game/DVD places... but here, if I want games, I either buy them new, or suck it up and go to EB.

Point is, just remember that in a lot of places, that's ALL there is.
 
I'm in the country probably in the middle of nowwhere. The biggest town with everything game related is 20 miles away. we got a blockbuster about 6 miles away but they dont have a great selection and there condition of games is good. I dont know If I lived near a gamestop it would probably be worth my wild to shop there because I wouldn't be losing that much money. Gas isn't cheap in california its always higher than the national average. so If someone else wants to come with me to Gamestop because theres a mall there than that would make sense because two people want to go but for me to just buck it and ride out alone doesnt make sense I'm kinda getting angry seeing those copies of ASB 2005 and NFL street laying on my desk collecting lint. I just want a refund good thing they weren't my free games. maybe saturday someone will want to come with me but if the recipet expires I probably will never buy used from gamestop or even buy new for what they did to me. but I will shop at there EBgames.com website because I have nothing but the best service on new and used games. The new games are in pristine condition and the used games are like new -minus some of the booklets and generic cases.
I'll be buying my PS3 from amazon though.
 
[quote name='Pharrell1']I probably will never buy used from gamestop or even buy new for what they did to me. but I will shop at there EBgames.com website because I have nothing but the best service on new and used games. The new games are in pristine condition and the used games are like new -minus some of the booklets and generic cases.
[/QUOTE]

So you're going to boycott Gamestop, and shop at EBgames.com instead?

You're an idiot.
 
Idiot because I want to save money
Idiot because I don't have a personal vendatta against a public gaming company
Idiot because I live near nothing but fruit fields

then yes I am an idiot.
 
Um, he probably means that since EB and GS have been the same company for nearly a year that it's a silly thing to do. In addition, since a lot of titles that go unsold tend to go back to other stores or go back to their website to be shipped out...well, you're putting yourself in the exact same position you are currently in, only if you happen to get a bad game online it's even more of a hassle to send it back to them and get a refund.

You would be better off grabbing your games elsewhere online, if possible, although used games can vary depending upon the seller and business. If you want Used and sometimes better prices then EBGames is the way to go, but I stopped using them after the EB/GS transition after they sent me games that they had no right to send (ie: cases and packaging are decent but the CD itself was shattered into dust).

Good luck, though.
 
[quote name='Pharrell1']Idiot because I want to save money
Idiot because I don't have a personal vendatta against a public gaming company
Idiot because I live near nothing but fruit fields

then yes I am an idiot.[/quote]

Ummmm as others have said already, EB and Gamestop are one and the same now, so you're going to end up with the same crap either way.

And really, your car must get piss poor mileage if you're not willing to go the 20 miles to actually return the games before you're permanently stuck with them.

If it was a choice for me of either a)suck it up and drive 20+ miles to a store in the same chain to return games I didn't want or b) be stuck with them forever and ever, I'd ALWAYS choose A.

Of course, if they say the 7 day return period is gone, then you have no choice left but to take whatever they'll give you in trade for them and be out the original amount paid for each.

OR, option C, find an FYE around by that mall or those GS stores and see what THEY give for those games.

I personally think you're sol either way, but who knows.....
 
[quote name='reibeatall']You need to realize a few things about this.

First, that happened at Target with a NEW memory stick as well. I think I heard something about Wal-Mart and/or Circuit City, but I'm not sure.

Second, they've totally changed all those rules. 2 years is a long time in retail. For about half a year, you couldn't even find used PSP sticks at GameStop because they didn't take them.

And third, why would anybody complain about free porn?[/quote]

There were game saves on it also. It was pretty obvious they just took it in as a trade, slapped a sticker on it and put it up for sale.
 
I'll probably return my games on saturday if anyone wants to go with me. It's not that my car has bad mileage its cuz Gas cost like 3.00 dollars a gallon here.
 
I hate Best Buy, they screwed me over and I will never shop there again and will boycott them!

But Bestbuy.com is AWESOME, they have great service and I'll give them all my money!!!

:roll:
 
[quote name='nyprimus4']There were game saves on it also. It was pretty obvious they just took it in as a trade, slapped a sticker on it and put it up for sale.[/quote]

Because that's all that was required. TWO YEARS AGO.
 
I would personally suck up the gas money and return the games, especially if they are non working. If it was a game you just didn't like but it worked then thats another story and you could probably sell it on ebay or trade it in somewhere locally. Gas costs 3$ a gallon here as well. If I was buying used games at a store I knew I couldn't get back to, to return them then I would check them carefully before leaving the store ideally before actually purchasing them.

If you bought a memory stick couldn't you just format it in the PSP, or does the PSP not allow formating of the stick before looking at the content on it? If its used I would expect stuff to be on it (and just format immediately if that was the case) but if it was labeled as new or in a new retail package then it would go back if there was stuff on it, because it evidently was not new.
 
Close this topic now!!!!

My mom came through and they refunded me fully. I guess I'll just count my losses and lick my wounds and move on.

No complaint here
 
[quote name='Roufuss']I hate Best Buy, they screwed me over and I will never shop there again and will boycott them!

But Bestbuy.com is AWESOME, they have great service and I'll give them all my money!!!

:roll:[/QUOTE]

details?
 
[quote name='Pharrell1']Close this topic now!!!!

My mom came through and they refunded me fully. I guess I'll just count my losses and lick my wounds and move on.

No complaint here[/QUOTE]

Sad.
 
[quote name='Michaellvortega']details?[/quote]

I certainly hope you read the entire thread and know that Roufuss was being sarcastic, since the OP or someone said that they disliked GS stores but thought that EBGames.com gave him great deals on games.

And well....since the merger, they are one and the same.
 
As a former manager I can't believe that not one post (unless I missed it) did not mention the most obvious thing to do: Call the store and speak to a manager. Numerous times I have extended return periods for customers who couldn't make it back within the return period. I have replaced, refunded and apologized many times. Contrary to popular opinion so have most of my fellow store managers. If you call in an open honest way and calmly explain your situation most times we were glad to help you out. Keeping the customer happy and providing a satisfactory resolution was our number 1 priority. I just can't believe how many shitty EB's there are now. I've only been gone 1 year.
 
gamestophamsterpl5.gif
 
LMFAO Eldad9, although I hope you actually meant that picture with caption for the customers who....I really don't know WTFH people do to their games that they end up so horrid looking.
 
They probably dont even put them back in the case. leave me around on the floor. probably some young kids who don't care.
 
[quote name='Pharrell1']They probably dont even put them back in the case. leave me around on the floor. probably some young kids who don't care.[/quote]

That sounds like my buddies nieces and nephews. I let him borrow Jade Empire, Fable and The Thing for Xbox maybe last week. I took back Fable tonight and immediately made a crack about the 'case being all sticky'. His nieces and nephews dump soda all over the table he keeps the Xbox and/or PS2 on when he's playing it and I'm just glad that it only seems to be on the OUTSIDE of the case(along with a nice sized smudged print on the bottom of the disc).

I already wiped the case off, but may either Goo Gone it or use some lighter fluid on the artwork cover part of it, since it's still kinda greasy/sticky. I suppose the sticky/greasy cases are better than the games ended up taken in to be traded like he had happen with a step nephew once or twice. But, not by MUCH, imo.

I just hope my LE Jade Empire(which I played for 3-4 hours, then stopped n never went back to) is still complete when I go to get that back in a couple days. As for The Thing, I think that's ANOTHER one he can keep(and I can groan about when I see the case sitting there, but the game go MIA for 2 months.
 
[quote name='Michaellvortega']Please Lord, make a Gamestop/EB games complaint sticky and save us from the flood of these topics.[/quote]Hey, this might be a popular place and all, but I really doubt that HE posts here, much less is a mod.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']just ask to see the discs before you buy used games, i swear theyll let you[/quote]

Not if you are me. I'm 14, so I am steryotyped. It is SO obvious that all teenagers steal! Is it really so bad that I want to see that I am not getting something that would be as useful as putting a fucking plate in my console? Absolutely not.

So annoying...
 
LOL I've had to resort to putting my games up on the one shelf in my buddies house whenever I leave one there anymore, since his families parakeet found a way to open its own cage door and uses the Xbox/PS2 and anything else laying out unguarded as it's own personal crap bombing strip. :whistle2:#

I did get back a few of my games I lent him(he has my minty Halo 2 right now from the Kmart 3 pack I found) and they were still MINT. I was shocked to say the least and I hope this streak will continue. But, I am fearful that one day soon, I'm going to go back and find yet another game has gone MIA for a month and a half because he never takes games out of the systems when he's done playing. And then his nieces come down and re-confiscate their Xbox and PS2 from him with my game still inside.

Oh and I actually broke my streak of NOT buying at GS the other day, when I finally found a near minty copy of Transformers for PS2 for $9.99(was supposed to be back up to $12.99 but someone didn't change the stickers, oh well).
 
This is why I have a strict policy that I do not let kids or other family members borrow games unless they are adults. I've heard too many bad stories about how supposedly "good" kids mess up other people's stuff so bad that it becomes unplayable, so I do not trust any kids even if they are family members. Just don't put your games into the hands of any kids, and you won't have a problem.

Adults are usually OK with games and they will generally respect your stuff, especially if they have their own stuff they want to keep in reasonable condition. I do not need anyone messing up or breaking my games, I put enough effort into keeping this stuff clean and in good condition.... plus I really cannot afford to be replacing stuff left and right because a cousin wants to play game x. I know it would make me very very angry if someone put a scratch on something, and there are not too many things that will make me very angry, but someone damaging or messing with my stuff will.

I pay for all my own stuff myself, so I consider it my property, I do not want anyone messing with my property, yes I know it seems selfish and everything but I have to protect my investment. Its a lot different if you live in a household with brothers and sisters and you pool your costs to buy games, then it has to be shared, or if a family member gives you a system as a gift, but since I am the only one here who plays games I do not have to worry about that.

I broke my streak from not buying at gamestop as well.. 19.99 for a copy of Fossil League for the DS... 1 day after it price dropped... heheh!
 
My local GS's are bad about putting new price stickers on the games anymore. And actually, I learned that that is WHY there's 20 layers of price stickers on most games, because they change the damned prices almost every week or every other.

Of course, I'd still like to talk to the dumbass at corporate who ordered them to put the one sticker on the actual case insert now, just so I could slap them upside the friggin head. Yeah, let's put something with glue on it on top of a paper insert. Real smart.

I only buy games once they reach the lowest price point that I know I'll see them at. That being said, I guess I should head to Kmart and buy one of the copies of Ninja Gaiden Black before it completely disappears. Although, I did wanna wait till it dropped to $7.50 or UNDER before buying it, but the clearance prices seem to STILL be stuck.
 
I lent some kids borrow two of my games

Mortal Kombat deception and some other game they had em for about a two weeks and I was suprised when I got the games back and they still looked nice minus a smudge here and there on the case. I guess it just depends on the kid.
 
I always ask to see the back of the disk before they give it to me. If it's too scratched up I aksk if they have another one. If they don't I don't buy (rarely do I buy a new copy). You can see it agitates them...it gives me energy.
 
LOL I remember when they dropped the price on Powerdrome Racing for PS2 to $1.99 and I would still ask them to see the discs.

Well, the one they gave me one time looked like the disc got wet on the bottom, then dust settled on the wetness and caked there.

Thing is, I was only buying that game en masse to quickly build FYE credit for a PStwo and FYE is AR about game condition/completeness. Even the smallest scratch and they may DQ a game.

So, I took it to FYE without checking it, then they showed me the disc when they said they 'couldn't take it'. I took it back to GS, they Windexed it on the bottom, then I took it back and got my $12-14 in credit.

Funny part is, GS upped the price of Powerdrome back to $3.99 a pop now and each store here has 10 copies, all sitting there collecting dust.
 
[quote name='IAmTheCheapestGamer']LOL I remember when they dropped the price on Powerdrome Racing for PS2 to $1.99 and I would still ask them to see the discs.

Well, the one they gave me one time looked like the disc got wet on the bottom, then dust settled on the wetness and caked there.

Thing is, I was only buying that game en masse to quickly build FYE credit for a PStwo and FYE is AR about game condition/completeness. Even the smallest scratch and they may DQ a game.

So, I took it to FYE without checking it, then they showed me the disc when they said they 'couldn't take it'. I took it back to GS, they Windexed it on the bottom, then I took it back and got my $12-14 in credit.

Funny part is, GS upped the price of Powerdrome back to $3.99 a pop now and each store here has 10 copies, all sitting there collecting dust.[/quote]

My FYE doesn't seem to care about the quality of discs, I bought a game there once used and had to return it because it literally looked like it had been scraped against the floor. :roll: Also, I traded in 6 games to EBGames once and the morons didnt even open up the cases to see if the actual discs were inside. And you guys wonder why the cds are in such bad condition.

At least the Gamestops here dont put stickers on the inserts, but I rarely buy there anymore. You can get NEW games cheaper elsewhere than what Gamestop sells used.
 
Wow, IAmTheCheapestGamer, I have NEVER seen EBgames or Gamestop around here put the price tags on inserts, in fact the price tags are actually improved so that you can get them off without goo gone now (even if there is a layer of them).

I play it like you do and buy only when I know something has hit the lowest possible price, either that or if there is only one copy left and I know it will be gone soon. Last November I got Super Mario 64 complete and used for 14.99 and now its back up to 24.99 used, so yes you can find deals if you play their system. Thats why if you see a price you like you should jump on it, because that low priced game may go back up in price in a week or 2.

The stores here 90% of the time have the right price on the item, however they never have the right price on GBA games, and if they do its extremely rare. I think they would sell more if they bothered to put the correct prices on stuff!
 
Why the HELL they keep lowering and raising the prices is beyond me, but I guess it's just to keep their employees working during the day. I mean, most NORMAL stores only start lowering their prices once the item has made them money and they're just trying to clear them out of their system. But again, Gamestop bases their pricing somewhat on Ebay, as I was told a while ago, so that may explain the constant lowering and raising prices.

On the subject of preorders:

At least if the preorder came with something nice as a bonus, like when I preordered Transformers for PS2 about 2 weeks ago, I got a copy of the movie poster for doing so. Even if it is something I'll never use(like the poster probably lol), it's nice to know you get something for your money in advance.

Right now, I'm just waiting for the inevitable demo to pop up someplace for play. Once it does and I play it, I may well cancel my pre order with them. That is assuming I'm back down that way for work anytime soon again, since it's a hell of a haul JUST to get back a mere $5.
 
I really don't understand the point of stores that do this, constantly raise and lower prices sometimes by only a few cents, you would think the few cents they spend on printing up the new price tag could be reflected in a more consistent price, and if they stopped printing price tags every day then maybe they could pass the savings from the wasted price tags onto the customer instead.

We have one of those grocery stores here that use "bonuscard savings" and what they do is they put new price tags on items every week, the problem is half of the savings in the store on the tags is like.. 5 cents... 10 cents... I don't even understand why they bother printing up the new price tag to save a measly 5 or 10 cents on an item.

People don't like to go in a store and constantly see prices changing either, especially if it happens on a weekly bases, its a good way to get customers to stop coming to your store, and in an area with a large amount of retail stores, they will just go to a store that keeps a consistent price instead of going back to the store that fluctuates prices, because of the uncertainty with a store that fluctuates prices. Imagine if target started marking all Nintendo DS games up and down, instead of keeping the consistent 29.99 and 34.99 prices, what if on a wednesday the games were suddenly marked to 24.99 but on friday they get marked back up to 33.99 then on tuesday of the following week they get marked down to 26.99.... This is what is happening with Gamestop..

At least with gamestop we can watch prices on the website, and from my experience prices on the website match store prices 100% of the time and the prices are corporate-wide.

Gamestop seems like they base their prices more on what is selling in the stores than on ebay, if something is selling out the price gets raised and if something is selling poorly the price gets lowered.
 
See, that's like the Transformers game I bought for PS2 from them, it WAS $11.99 or $12.99 in the system, but the sticker only said either $8.99 or $9.99, so they gave me it for that price with no problem since SOMEONE wasn't doing their weekly adjustments. LOL

I spotted a couple more that were $3-5 more on the website that weren't marked right, but I'm sure that by now they've caught up with their mistakes. Thing is, the bulk of them were games that got dismal scores from Gamespot or IGN, stuff like one of the Star Trek flight games for PS2 and some other dreck.

HELL, GS even marked up Powerdrome for the PS2, which WAS $1.99, back up to $3.99. I laugh because at $2 I think some copies WERE moving, but now, they're all sitting there not being bought.
 
I bought dragon quest heroes:rocket slime "new" for the DS there. They had to pull the game out of a cd holder they reshrinkwrapped it, and when I got home there was a save game with 5+ hours on it. Good buisness practice? Hell no.
 
They have marked up the price on a lot of used gba games just recently, for example wario land 4 was 4.99 now its up to 9.99...

For 1.99 people will buy it for their kids but at 3.99 they will probably leave it behind, it was probably moving at the 1.99 price so they raised it when they saw copies start to disappear.
 
I think the problem with Gamestop and broken CD is because 1: their workers/managers are corporate employees working a salaried job without overtime pay (and their pay sucks), so they dont really care about the store at all. 2: They don't have a disc repair machine, so they cant repair scratched up discs.

The PlayNTrade I went to checks pretty much everything, and guarentees the thing to work plus if you have problems, you could just bring it back and they can refinish the discs for you. You could even bring your own scratched up DVDs and CDs to them, pay a buck and they'll refinish the disc and it'll be like you just bought it.
 
[quote name='monkeydeew']i always here that the store and gamestop.com are seperate and their prices are not tied to one another.[/quote]

Not according to the pricing for Transformers I managed to get in on due to the stickers not being changed. I checked the price just before hitting the stores to find it had jumped overnight to $12 something. So, when I saw the unchanged stickers, I jumped on it.

Why the HELL they keep fluctuating their prices is beyond me. Maybe if they acted like a normal retail chain and put games on sale every so often(for a good price too), followed by clearancing games which are 2-3 years old instead of letting them sit on the shelves till some sap finally buys them, they might not actually have so many detractors.

I mean, when you're trying to buy a game that's 3 or more years old and the price is still @ $20(and its not a GH title), then there is something wrong with that picture imo.
 
[quote name='Derrick1979']do you think they would give me a manual from other used game? I bought God Hand and it doesn't have a booklet :cry:[/quote]
trade in your copy to gs and buy a used copy of the game with the manual and keep it wink wink wink

i also saw gun (gamecube) on the website for 14.99, store said 17.99, today i saw it for 9.99 in store
 
[quote name='Derrick1979']do you think they would give me a manual from other used game? I bought God Hand and it doesn't have a booklet :cry:[/quote]

If you got it from GS, just go back and tell them you didn't get an instruction manual for it. Moreover, rule #1 of buying ANYTHING from them is: ALWAYS CHECK BEFORE LEAVING THE STORE!!!!

I remember the one time, I bought 3-4 games from them, got ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the way home and finally realized 'gee this one case SURE IS LIGHT'. Lo and behold, they forgot to put the game in the case.

I always do two things when buying something from RipOffStop, #1 check the condition of the disc and #2 check the completeness. If a game is incomplete, but it's something I realllllly wanna play, I may just take it without a booklet.

But, that's in a RARE, RARE instance that that will happen.
 
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