Concealed Guns on College Campuses - Bad idea, or Terribad idea?

Have you ever shot a gun?

Throwing a huge fit does not mean that you're going to start shooting a place up.

Now while I don't think this is a good idea, I do support concealed weapons permits in cities and towns for self defense. However I can't foresee the circumstances where you'll need a weapon for self defense on a college campus.
 
I'm not saying concealed firearms have no place, I'm saying on a college campus, especially with stupid people doing stupid things, it's not a good idea. Oh, and saying throwing a huge fit doesn't mean you're going to start shooting a place up.... isn't that why these things happen? Somebody gets pissy over something stupid, and takes it too far. Now it's just already on campus.

[quote name='thwak']Have you ever shot a gun?

Throwing a huge fit does not mean that you're going to start shooting a place up.

Now while I don't think this is a good idea, I do support concealed weapons permits in cities and towns for self defense. However I can't foresee the circumstances where you'll need a weapon for self defense on a college campus.[/QUOTE]
 
[quote name='georox']I'm not saying concealed firearms have no place, I'm saying on a college campus, especially with stupid people doing stupid things, it's not a good idea. Oh, and saying throwing a huge fit doesn't mean you're going to start shooting a place up.... isn't that why these things happen? Somebody gets pissy over something stupid, and takes it too far. Now it's just already on campus.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but cops carry guns and they get pissed off plenty of times, that doesn't mean they start shooting everything that moves.
 
[quote name='thwak']Yeah but cops carry guns and they get pissed off plenty of times, that doesn't mean they start shooting everything that moves.[/QUOTE]
True, they tend to start beating everything that moves.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']I don't see why conceal and carry is needed when open carry is legal.[/QUOTE]

Open carry is allowed on college campuses? I thought no weapons of any sort were allowed on campus. To be honest, I don't think it matters much if they allow it on campus or not, if you're truly wanting to shoot somebody, you're going to bring a gun with you whether they allow it or not.
 
[quote name='docvinh']Open carry is allowed on college campuses? I thought no weapons of any sort were allowed on campus. To be honest, I don't think it matters much if they allow it on campus or not, if you're truly wanting to shoot somebody, you're going to bring a gun with you whether they allow it or not.[/QUOTE]
I think the idea is to prevent crimes of passions, acts of stupidity. While I'm all for people owning guns if they want them. When it's a place where tesnsions tend to run high and people are at their stupidest having a gun around in those situations doesn't seem like it can lead to anything good.
 
Terribad. I've heard the (ridiculous) argument that allowing college students to carry could have helped prevent tragedies like the Virginia Tech shooting. At least to me, college kids toting around concealed weapons seems a lot more likely to lead to another tragedy rather than prevent one. Gun safety? Given the number of universities which have their own STDs named after them, I don't think it's safe to assume college kids will be safe about anything.
 
[quote name='bvharris']Terribad. I've heard the (ridiculous) argument that allowing college students to carry could have helped prevent tragedies like the Virginia Tech shooting. At least to me, college kids toting around concealed weapons seems a lot more likely to lead to another tragedy rather than prevent one. Gun safety? Given the number of universities which have their own STDs named after them, I don't think it's safe to assume college kids will be safe about anything.[/QUOTE]

I agree that this is stupid logic, I'm not sure it really would have prevented anything.

[quote name='itachiitachi']I think the idea is to prevent crimes of passions, acts of stupidity. While I'm all for people owning guns if they want them. When it's a place where tesnsions tend to run high and people are at their stupidest having a gun around in those situations doesn't seem like it can lead to anything good.[/QUOTE]

While I get the idea, why don't they ban guns from bars then, I mean, there's no doubt that tensions can run high there.:)
 
I don't quite get how any of you (or anyone) seem to think that making CONCEALED weapons officially against the rules on a campus will somehow stop people from carrying CONCEALED weapons, especially bad or unstable people that already have little regard for rules.

Unless you advocate putting metal detectors everywhere on a campus, GTFO with your lame-ass rules.

That's kind of like making a rule you can't have dirty thoughts, because it might lead to rape. Enforcing rules like this are so impossible, they make the rules stupid and ridiculous. Get real people.
 
[quote name='docvinh']I agree that this is stupid logic, I'm not sure it really would have prevented anything.



While I get the idea, why don't they ban guns from bars then, I mean, there's no doubt that tensions can run high there.:)[/QUOTE]


I thought it was already illegal to bring firearms into bars? At least from any establishment that makes more than 50% of its revenues from alcohol sales?
 
[quote name='kamui34']I thought it was already illegal to bring firearms into bars? At least from any establishment that makes more than 50% of its revenues from alcohol sales?[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure this is correct, but I believe something like this is governed by state laws.
 
Bad idea. I'm not a fan of concealed guns anywhere personally. Definitely not on college campuses with a bunch of immature kids away from home for the first time.

But I won't bother arguing it more, as it's just one of those issues people never budge on. You either like guns and support concealed weapons, or you don't. And I firmly don't.

If the University I taught at began allowing concealed weapons, I'd be looking for a new job immediately. And I work in an urban university with a fair amount of crime near campus. I don't see people packing on campus making things any safer.
 
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[quote name='thwak']Yeah but cops carry guns and they get pissed off plenty of times, that doesn't mean they start shooting everything that moves.[/QUOTE]

That argument is pretty much invalid. Cops are trained to not shot unless it is necessary, and even they they asses the situation a lot more than anyone else will. The average gun-owner doesn't half a fraction of the training a police officer has, on how to use a gun or safety. Now, let us narrow that down from gun owners to college students who own guns. Your looking at an even worse group.
 
[quote name='kamui34']I thought it was already illegal to bring firearms into bars? At least from any establishment that makes more than 50% of its revenues from alcohol sales?[/QUOTE]

Just a quick look around the net brought me to this article.
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/23/two-states-legalize-guns-in-bars/

I think that's crazy. I dunno dmaul, I'm for having concealed weapons, but I certainly wouldn't want them on campus or at a bar myself, so I don't think it's that polarizing of an issue. But Thrust does make a good point, if you're nuts enough, I don't think any type of rule is going to really stop you. It's an interesting topic to say the least.
 
The more places we allow people to carry firearms, the more we have to accept an increase in firearms-related fatalities that correspond with that?

thrust is making the "outlaws will carry guns" kind of nra argument but with a slight semantic change. But as currently stands, how many firearms-related fatalities happen on college campuses each year? Assuming that this statistic would be extremely high is what your argument rests on. Shame it isn't high.
 
[quote name='docvinh']
I think that's crazy. I dunno dmaul, I'm for having concealed weapons, but I certainly wouldn't want them on campus or at a bar myself, so I don't think it's that polarizing of an issue. But Thrust does make a good point, if you're nuts enough, I don't think any type of rule is going to really stop you. It's an interesting topic to say the least.[/QUOTE]

Well you have a more reasonable view, vs. the NRA types that think most everyone should be able to have any gun they want anywhere they want.

And yes, the bad guys will always have guns. The difference is at least we don't have the "good" guys turning what would have been a fist fight into a shooting when they lose their cool since they were strapping a gun everywhere they go. Or shooting unarmed people trying to rob them, shooting fleeing criminals int he back etc. (over reacting in self defense).

I'm just not a fan of concealed weapons or using weapons for anything other than hunting, sport shooting and self defense in side the home.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I don't quite get how any of you (or anyone) seem to think that making CONCEALED weapons officially against the rules on a campus will somehow stop people from carrying CONCEALED weapons, especially bad or unstable people that already have little regard for rules.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but you can apply that logic to almost every law ever, so I don't really get the point of bringing it up.

These laws are never about stopping crazy people, no law is about stopping crazy people as laws don't work on crazy people. And laws really are less about keeping people from doing things (though social factors work to that end) so much as having a legal basis for punishment when someone is caught doing it. So, I don't think that argument makes any sense and if it were followed consistently there would be hardly any laws.

But, like other people were saying, sometimes people do stupid things, and adding in a gun just makes it worse. The fact that it's illegal will keep some people, who are otherwise law-abiding, from getting pissed, etc. and doing something stupid with a gun.
 
[quote name='SpazX']
But, like other people were saying, sometimes people do stupid things, and adding in a gun just makes it worse. The fact that it's illegal will keep some people, who are otherwise law-abiding, from getting pissed, etc. and doing something stupid with a gun.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. So many shootings are acquaitances, bar fights, etc. where someone just gets heated, drunk etc. and blows someone away.

Not having concealed weapons laws at least keeps some of those as fist fights etc., vs. fatal shootings. As well as not having minor criminals getting shot for trying to break into a car etc. Some people are fine with that, but I'm not. Lethal force should only be used as a last resort to protect ones own physical well being.

The criminals will always have guns. Having more of the general public packing won't reduce crime IMO and will just lead to more senseless shootings as a result of more people having guns on hand when they lose their tempers.
 
You know how fire is sometimes used in an attempt to prevent a larger fire from starting? The way that brush is burned before it can catch fire and start some huge wildfire.The idea that adding more guns to a place will stop gun violence is a similar idea, fighting fire with fire. The problem is that sometimes those small fires get out of control and end up causing an even bigger fire.

Look at it this way. At Virgina Tech you had one person going around and shooting people. If even half the people on campus had been carrying guns, you could have gone from one person shooting at people to dozens of people shooting. Now unless these people are crack shots, somebody is going to end up getting shot in the cross fire.

On top of all that, considering what i've observed at my school, i wouldn't want most people here to be walking around with a gun.
 
Picture this - Persona 1 pulls a gun to shoot a classroom up.

Three other people pull guns out, and gun him down

Cops run in hearing it, see three people with guns and one dead...

Or better yet, lets say misfire happens and someone innocent gets hit by one of the 'defenders'.

Because we all know people need guns.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']You know how fire is sometimes used in an attempt to prevent a larger fire from starting? The way that brush is burned before it can catch fire and start some huge wildfire.The idea that adding more guns to a place will stop gun violence is a similar idea, fighting fire with fire. The problem is that sometimes those small fires get out of control and end up causing an even bigger fire.

Look at it this way. At Virgina Tech you had one person going around and shooting people. If even half the people on campus had been carrying guns, you could have gone from one person shooting at people to dozens of people shooting. Now unless these people are crack shots, somebody is going to end up getting shot in the cross fire.

On top of all that, considering what i've observed at my school, i wouldn't want most people here to be walking around with a gun.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and I get the idea of someone shooting a maniac because they were able to have a gun and therefore that maniac didn't get to kill as many people as they may have otherwise, but those situations, though very well televised, are really quite rare.

Even taking out the fact that there may be a few deaths in the crossfire of one of those occasions, I think the number of deaths due to more people carrying around concealed weapons on campus would far outweigh those that the weapons may prevent due to the rare events where somebody starts shooting people.
 
Exactly. Like i said, unless these people are crack shots, someone is going to get caught in the exchange of fire. I've met very few college students who i would trust to carry a gun.
 
Yep. There just aren't that many instances where a crime can be prevented by someone with a concealed gun as those mass shooting sprees are so rare.

Take robbery, as somone who has been robbed at gun point, I can tell you you aren't going to have time to pull the gun and stop that. The robbers weight to surprise people in a secluded area, you're much better off just giving them your valuables and letting them leave.

The most someone could do in most robberies would be shoot the person in the back after they're fleeing. And that's going too far IMO as the direct threat to your safety is over at that point.
 
[quote name='docvinh']Open carry is allowed on college campuses? I thought no weapons of any sort were allowed on campus. To be honest, I don't think it matters much if they allow it on campus or not, if you're truly wanting to shoot somebody, you're going to bring a gun with you whether they allow it or not.[/QUOTE]
From the article:
Currently, the open carry of weapons is permitted anywhere, so long as the owner has a license to own the gun.
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I have no problems with open-carry, and think it is a good idea. Concealed-carry however is another issue. Why would you need to conceal your gun?
[quote name='dmaul1114']Exactly. So many shootings are acquaitances, bar fights, etc. where someone just gets heated, drunk etc. and blows someone away.[/QUOTE]
Do you think someone would pull a gun on someone if many people around him had a gun?
Not having concealed weapons laws at least keeps some of those as fist fights etc., vs. fatal shootings. As well as not having minor criminals getting shot for trying to break into a car etc. Some people are fine with that, but I'm not. Lethal force should only be used as a last resort to protect ones own physical well being.
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Would you steal someone's stuff if they had a gun at their waist?
The criminals will always have guns. Having more of the general public packing won't reduce crime IMO and will just lead to more senseless shootings as a result of more people having guns on hand when they lose their tempers.
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Not really. Why would anyone pull a gun on someone if they knew they would get shot by doing so?
 
I dunno man, people still shoot each other now even if the other person has a weapon. I'm not totally against the idea of open carry, but I think certain places should be off-limits. I mean, the wild west wasn't exactly the safest place to be.:)
 
People willing to pull a gun on someone generally aren't fully rational and thinking of the consequences of their action.

Particularly people shooting people out of emotion from getting super pissed off, and/or high or drunk. The majority of people that shoot someone get caught and imprisoned--clearance rates are pretty high for shootings--especially fatal ones. Yet people still do it. And a lot of shootings are criminal types shooting other criminal types in poor, high crime urban areas where the majority of people involved in these incidents DO have guns. So you're point falls flat for me.

Everyone having guns is a nightmare situation IMO and I'd 100% leave the country if it ever got to that point.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Do you think someone would pull a gun on someone if many people around him had a gun?[/quote]

DBC.

Would you steal someone's stuff if they had a gun at their waist?
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Actually, as wrong as this is, I'm glad you bring it up. Citizens are allowed to discharge firearms (use lethal force) in response to an imminent threat on their life or the lives of nearby persons.

This kind of "hey, something's wrong, pull out a gun and blow 'em away!" response to potential social problems that shows a willful ignorance of firearms laws is PRECISELY the reason people are afraid of permitting guns to be carried on places like college campuses.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Do you think someone would pull a gun on someone if many people around him had a gun?

Would you steal someone's stuff if they had a gun at their waist?

Why would anyone pull a gun on someone if they knew they would get shot by doing so?[/QUOTE]

Well like dmaul has said, someone pulling a gun on somebody else isn't always rational and it happens all the time between criminals, etc. Hell, people shoot at cops.

Plus, a gun doesn't put up a bullet shield or something, you have to have the chance to pull out the gun and fire it, if someone already has a gun on you, that's not a very good idea, as you will probably be shot.

I agree that there's logic in what you're saying: If you think the other person might have a gun you won't be as likely to pull a gun on them, but there's also logic in shooting someone first so that they don't have a chance to pull their gun on you, so the gun isn't an automatic defense just by virtue of its existence.

I just don't think that the logic applies in as many situations as you think. People don't normally have a gun pulled on them (to be robbed, etc.) in the middle of a group of other people, so the number of other people who have guns is irrelevant in most situations. And the heat-of-the-moment shit we're talking about with stupid kids is exactly the situation where the person wouldn't really be considering whether or not anyone around them had a gun before they pulled the trigger.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']DBC.



Actually, as wrong as this is, I'm glad you bring it up. Citizens are allowed to discharge firearms (use lethal force) in response to an imminent threat on their life or the lives of nearby persons.

This kind of "hey, something's wrong, pull out a gun and blow 'em away!" response to potential social problems that shows a willful ignorance of firearms laws is PRECISELY the reason people are afraid of permitting guns to be carried on places like college campuses.[/QUOTE]
I don't advocate for shooting people because they try to steal your stuff. However, having a gun openly carried I would think would deter someone from stealing your stuff.
People don't normally have a gun pulled on them (to be robbed, etc.) in the middle of a group of other people, so the number of other people who have guns is irrelevant in most situations. And the heat-of-the-moment shit we're talking about with stupid kids is exactly the situation where the person wouldn't really be considering whether or not anyone around them had a gun before they pulled the trigger.
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You may be right, but in situations that there is someone else around, that person having a gun would help. Plus, open-carry of a gun is a great deterrent against rape, and other crimes.
 
There seems to be an awful lot of assuming going on here that outlawing licensed CCW permit holders from carrying guns in a certain place will some how reduce or prevent crime in that place. Surely there are some studies and statistics someone here has to back up those assumptions. Surely we wouldn't just be throwing around fear-based opinions here. (Oh and don't bother bringing Europe or other countries in as your proof - it's incosequential since you aren't banning guns, you are just banning hiding them. So gun numbers don't count here.)

Without metal detectors EVERYWHERE, such a law is unenforceable. You can't expect anyone to respect a law they know is unenforceable.

Look, make your laws. Ban concealed weapons from campus. I really don't care. It really means nothing. It's a symbolic law that won't stop anything, change anything, or make anything safer. And when someone does pull out a concealed weapon on campus and kills 5 people before killing himself, you can feel a sense of pride knowing that breaking the campus concealed weapon law got added to the police report - because that's really the only difference the law will make.

Banning the hiding of anything is just utterly ridiculous. Because the only time the law will ever be realized is when several much more serious laws are already broken.
 
NRA response after a school shooting: See, this wouldnt have happened if EVERYONE had a gun!

Jack Thompson response after a school shooting: GTA did it.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Banning the hiding of anything is just utterly ridiculous. Because the only time the law will ever be realized is when several much more serious laws are already broken.[/QUOTE]

That makes sense.

However, concealed carry is always a bad idea. Let's be a honest society and keep everything open carry.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']That makes sense.

However, concealed carry is always a bad idea. Let's be a honest society and keep everything open carry.[/QUOTE]

Only issue I have with that is it makes it too easy for people to grab someone else gun and use it on them or someone else if people are wearing them on their hip etc.

But I'm generally just opposed to anything that gets more people owning and carrying guns. If I can change anyone thing in human history it would be the invention of gunpowder and subsequently guns, bombs etc.

The world would be a much safer place if people had to rely on their knuckles and physical combat with clubs, knives, swords etc. to kill other people, rob people etc.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']
Look, make your laws. Ban concealed weapons from campus. I really don't care. It really means nothing. It's a symbolic law that won't stop anything, change anything, or make anything satfer. And when someone does pull out a concealed weapon on campus and kills 5 people before killing himself, you can feel a sense of pride knowing that breaking the campus concealed weapon law got added to the police report - because that's really the only difference the law will make.

Banning the hiding of anything is just utterly ridiculous. Because the only time the law will ever be realized is when several much more serious laws are already broken.[/QUOTE]
The point is not to stop premeditated murder, no gun law is going to do that. The point as stated before is to keep guns out of a place full of stressed out, immature and probably intoxicated people.(I believe Tennessee is the only state that allows concealed handguns in bars I most people seem to agree that is a bad idea.)

Also I doubt having more guns around will be a deturent to a crime of passion, as the person committing them is generally not using logic and is not thinking about the consequences.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Only issue I have with that is it makes it too easy for people to grab someone else gun and use it on them or someone else if people are wearing them on their hip etc.[/quote]
I think you've seen too many movies.
But I'm generally just opposed to anything that gets more people owning and carrying guns. If I can change anyone thing in human history it would be the invention of gunpowder and subsequently guns, bombs etc.
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Luddite much?
The world would be a much safer place if people had to rely on their knuckles and physical combat with clubs, knives, swords etc. to kill other people, rob people etc.
Click to expand...
Great, then we would just stab each other. No problems would be solved, and how would you defend your family?
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']I think you've seen too many movies.[/QUOTE]

:rofl:

Just when you start to show some intellectual maturity, you give a reason to not bother debating with you again. This is a particularly ironic "counterpoint" from you, given the idea that a campus full of armed college brats will actually prevent something like the VT shooting from happening. Even the most anti-gun-control of critics (those critics that have knowledge of situations like VT and proper response procedures) admit there's no way it could have been prevented if CCW were permitted on campus.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']:rofl:

Just when you start to show some intellectual maturity, you give a reason to not bother debating with you again. This is a particularly ironic "counterpoint" from you, given the idea that a campus full of armed college brats will actually prevent something like the VT shooting from happening. Even the most anti-gun-control of critics (those critics that have knowledge of situations like VT and proper response procedures) admit there's no way it could have been prevented if CCW were permitted on campus.[/QUOTE]
Calm down. I was just joking. Honestly though, I think the chances of someone taking someone's gun out of their holster and shooting them with it is quite low.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Great, then we would just stab each other. No problems would be solved, and how would you defend your family?[/QUOTE]

I'm getting a large dog.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Only issue I have with that is it makes it too easy for people to grab someone else gun and use it on them or someone else if people are wearing them on their hip etc.

But I'm generally just opposed to anything that gets more people owning and carrying guns. If I can change anyone thing in human history it would be the invention of gunpowder and subsequently guns, bombs etc.

The world would be a much safer place if people had to rely on their knuckles and physical combat with clubs, knives, swords etc. to kill other people, rob people etc.[/QUOTE]

Ok, those are nice wishes, but to be realistic, if those wishes came true, you would also have to give up the combustible engine (as soon as anyone figures out how to make explosive force move something, you will have a gun/bomb), which means you'd likely give up electricity. Would that trade off be worth it to you?

(Not to mention the scary bogeyman of world overpopulation might actually be a legit problem if there were never any guns or bombs invented)

I know we are just playing silly hypotheticals but I'm really curious. You've made it clear over the years how much you despise guns; I'm just wondering how much you really despise them - how much would you give up if it meant their elimination?
 
I'm the type that would have loved to have been born before the industrial revolution...or even as far back as a hunter-gather society---so you can take that and answer your question.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Ok, those are nice wishes, but to be realistic, if those wishes came true, you would also have to give up the combustible engine (as soon as anyone figures out how to make explosive force move something, you will have a gun/bomb), which means you'd likely give up electricity. Would that trade off be worth it to you?

(Not to mention the scary bogeyman of world overpopulation might actually be a legit problem if there were never any guns or bombs invented)

I know we are just playing silly hypotheticals but I'm really curious. You've made it clear over the years how much you despise guns; I'm just wondering how much you really despise them - how much would you give up if it meant their elimination?[/QUOTE]

I want to see a valid argument from you, about why people should have concealed weapons on a college campus. All you've done so far is troll and make false-"points" that don't apply to this, at all.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I'm the type that would have loved to have been born before the industrial revolution...or even as far back as a hunter-gather society---so you can take that and answer your question.[/QUOTE]
I can certainly understand that, and I actually wish the same thing (for probably different reasons).

[quote name='georox']I want to see a valid argument from you, about why people should have concealed weapons on a college campus. All you've done so far is troll and make false-"points" that don't apply to this, at all.[/QUOTE]

First of all, I haven't tried to argue that anyone SHOULD have concealed weapons on college campus's. If you thought so, you aren't paying attention.

The only argument I have put forth is that making laws/rules about hiding anything is, at it's core, retarded. For (what should be) obvious reasons.

Simply make your rule that no weapons are allowed on campus, period. That makes logical sense. But don't make your rule "no hidden weapons of X category allowed on campus" as that makes no sense. If your goal is to make/keep a campus safe then just ban all weapons of any kind - whether they are hidden or not should not matter.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']
Simply make your rule that no weapons are allowed on campus, period. That makes logical sense. But don't make your rule "no hidden weapons of X category allowed on campus" as that makes no sense. If your goal is to make/keep a campus safe then just ban all weapons of any kind - whether they are hidden or not should not matter.[/QUOTE]

Well that IS the rule. You can't openly carry guns, large knives etc. on college campuses either.

So I agree with you there--but there aren't many places where concealed carry is banned and open carry is allowed, so it's generally a moot point. With some exceptions of course.
 
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