Concidence? Updated: Arizona doubles in size and the $1.5 Million third of a job

UncleBob

UncleBob

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Just random chance?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/education/chi-education-stimulus-04-nov04,0,2066518,full.story

So - the number of jobs claimed to have been "created or saved" by the Federal Stimulus package is a joke - we all know that.

Here, we have the State of Illinois (heh) and Federal officials claiming that the Federal Stimulus saved/created more jobs in districts than actually exist.

More than $4.7 million in federal stimulus aid so far has been funneled to schools in North Chicago, and state and federal officials say that money has saved the jobs of 473 teachers.

Problem is, the district employs only 290 teachers.
[...]
At Dolton-Riverdale School District 148, stimulus funds were said to have saved the equivalent of 382 full-time teaching jobs -- 142 more than the district actually has.

A similar discrepancy was found in data for Kankakee School District 111, where the stimulus report logged the equivalent of 665 full-time jobs saved. "That's impossible," a top Kankakee school official said, adding that the entire payroll -- full and part time -- is 600 workers.
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Who would have thought the State of Illinois would work with our Federal Government to lie about such figures?
 
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i think youre looking too much into it and singling out illinois (because of our man barry). this kind is going on across the country.
 
I'm singling out Illinois because:
A.) That's what the article is about.
B.) It's where I live.
C.) I've long complained about the corrupt culture that is Illinois state-wide politics.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']ithis kind is going on across the country.[/QUOTE]

Seconded, but there is nothing wrong with pointing out blatant examples.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I'm singling out Illinois because:
A.) That's what the article is about.
B.) It's where I live.
C.) I've long complained about the corrupt culture that is Illinois state-wide politics.[/QUOTE]

fair enough, i know im more vocal in threads about california
 
My first thought was....Maybe they meant teachers + administrators + janitors and lumped everything into the "teacher" column because some people don't realize there is a difference.

but then I read
"A similar discrepancy was found in data for Kankakee School District 111, where the stimulus report logged the equivalent of 665 full-time jobs saved. "That's impossible," a top Kankakee school official said, adding that the entire payroll -- full and part time -- is 600 workers."
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So damn. Horrible communication or horrible lie?
 
Probably horrible lie. These people are under intense pressure from politicians to report the "right" numbers. But even if you take the inflated numbers given, every job "saved or created" (a bullshit metric if I've ever seen one) cost us more than $200,000.

Let's look at this another way. The economy grew by 3.5 percent (annualized) in the last quarter. "Wow, what an improvement!" most people would say. I would too...until I realized that (a) that growth represented a $150 billion increase in GDP; and (b) the government put an extra $170 billion into the economy during the quarter. In other words, our masterful "stimulus/cash-for-clunkers" plan DECREASED the wealth of the country. Remember, this also doesn't include interest payments on the $170 biillion, which was all borrowed (mostly from China). Brilliant.

Did you know the interest on the "stimulus" bill alone is $100 million...A DAY? Good thing we're flush with cash.
 
There's something about Chicago that the FoxNews pundits absolutely hate. I still can't figure out what it was, but they were absolutely ecstatic when they found out Chicago was out of the bid for the Olympics. During the run-up they were trashing the shit out of Chicago. I've never really seen Americans (unless they're drunk and its the World Series) trash another American city to that extent.

Wait, isn't Obama from Chicago?
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Probably horrible lie. These people are under intense pressure from politicians to report the "right" numbers. But even if you take the inflated numbers given, every job "saved or created" (a bullshit metric if I've ever seen one) cost us more than $200,000.

Let's look at this another way. The economy grew by 3.5 percent (annualized) in the last quarter. "Wow, what an improvement!" most people would say. I would too...until I realized that (a) that growth represented a $150 billion increase in GDP; and (b) the government put an extra $170 billion into the economy during the quarter. In other words, our masterful "stimulus/cash-for-clunkers" plan DECREASED the wealth of the country. Remember, this also doesn't include interest payments on the $170 biillion, which was all borrowed (mostly from China). Brilliant.

Did you know the interest on the "stimulus" bill alone is $100 million...A DAY? Good thing we're flush with cash.[/QUOTE]

That's just calculator abuse...

[quote name='IRHari']There's something about Chicago that the FoxNews pundits absolutely hate. I still can't figure out what it was, but they were absolutely ecstatic when they found out Chicago was out of the bid for the Olympics. During the run-up they were trashing the shit out of Chicago. I've never really seen Americans (unless they're drunk and its the World Series) trash another American city to that extent.

Wait, isn't Obama from Chicago?[/QUOTE]

I can assure you, I have problems with Chicago that are unrelated to Obama. But I'm not sure what your point is - this has to do with numbers being reported state-wide.
 
[quote name='IRHari']... I've never really seen Americans (unless they're drunk and its the World Series) trash another American city to that extent.
[/QUOTE]

Obviously, you have never heard of a city named Detroit.
 
We make fun of Detroit and Cleveland but it's not like we actively hate them. I rooted for Chicago to get the Olympics even though it's been proven not to be the economic stimulus it's cracked up to be.
 
You've been listening to those doom-and-gloom Illinois Republicans again. From what I read in the Belleville (one my old hometowns) papers, they completely omitted the contributions (and subsequent tax drain) from Indiana and Wisconsin. Several events were going to be held in both states making the Chicago Olympics the first American Olympiad to take place in mulitple states. That number they kept popping up was the TOTAL for all three states. Illinois would've paid the lion's share but would've had help that California and Georgia never got.

What I don't get is if you hate Illinois politics and taxes so much, why not move to Indiana or Kentucky? Both are less than an hour from you and much cheaper tax wise. Then again, the state schools don't hold a candle to the University of Illinois.

If you think that Chicago just pours money down the drain, why not pour it into infrastructure and stadiums? Part of the plan was a rail system that would've connected Chicago with St. Louis, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, South Bend, Detroit, and Cleveland. It would've given the midwest a high speed rail system even better than the one from Boston to D.C. The boost in jobs from that project alone was huge.

Let's go back and look at the '96 Olympics. First of all, it turned a profit even though the bombing overshadowed the action on the field.

Since 2000, Atlanta has become the fastest growing metropolitan area in the country. Do you think people are flocking there because of high taxes and non-existent services? No. But that was basically the argument against the Chicago Olympics. Taxes will go up. Schools will suffer. Infrastructure will crumble. Some bright new shiny stadiums will be built but then be useless afterwards. None of this happened in Atlanta or Los Angeles. It happened in Greece and China but both were desperate to show off. Greece wanted to pretend it was still relevant in world affairs and China desperately wanted to put on a good show. There were no indications that Chicago intended to outdo either city.

I guess I just don't get the irrational hate towards Chicago of all places. Get pissed about the cesspool that is East St. Louis if you really want to show your concern for corruption.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Now, Obama's Stimulus has created jobs in a district that doesn't even exist...
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/11/obama-joe-biden-economy-.html

I always thought the Obama administration was operating outside of reality. Perhaps, in their dimension, Arizona is a lot bigger.[/QUOTE]

That's not the only imaginary jurisdiction in play here:

http://www.examiner.com/x-6571-Atla...-jobs-for-GA-nonprofit-as-there-are-employees

The imaginary districts from the website include U.S. territories as well:
$68.3 million spent and 72.2 million spent in the 1st congressional district of the U.S. Virgin Islands.
$8.4 million spent and 40.3 jobs created in the 99th congressional district of the U.S. Virgin Islands.
$1.5 million spent and .3 jobs created in the 69th district and $35 million for 142 jobs in the 99th district of the Northern Mariana Islands.
$47.7 million spent and 291 jobs created in Puerto Rico's 99th congressional district.
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[quote name='UncleBob']$1.5 Million for .3 Jobs? Wow. I want that job.[/QUOTE]

I figure at that rate I can retire in .25 years and live like a king. Where do I sign up?
 
"These are the things that are gonna provide these guys (motioning to the crowd like they're his subjects) with real live jobs...(because let's face it Jon, we're not one of these lowly folks, we've got plenty of jobs)"

And this guy is a better speaker than Palin?
 
[quote name='gareman']Joe Biden explains bizarre numbers around 3.00

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-november-17-2009/joe-biden-pt--1[/QUOTE]

NPR took Joe Biden up on his challenge.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120545578

Early Music America Inc., a nonprofit for people who enjoy the sound of lutes and sackbuts, received $25,000 in stimulus money. According to the government's Web site, the stimulus money saved 0.5 jobs at Early Music.

"It's actually two 0.25 jobs, to be honest," says Baroque flutist Maria Coldwell, the director of the group. "It's a quarter of my salary and a quarter of Patrick's salary." She waves at her colleague on the other side of the cramped office space.
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I wish they had done more - but it's an interesting read/listen.
 
Yes, I watched the infotainment fluff piece. Did you read/listen to the investigative article that looked into the actual claim made by Biden?

You know what's awesome about the website? The $9.5 Million (through January) that was just allocated to redesign it. That's redesign. That number doesn't include amount originally spent on the site. And the additional $8.5 Million that's been allocated to it for development past January. Hell, the design and development of this website probably created more jobs than the rest of the stimulus package. :D
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Yes, I watched the infotainment fluff piece. Did you read/listen to the investigative article that looked into the actual claim made by Biden?

You know what's awesome about the website? The $9.5 Million (through January) that was just allocated to redesign it. That's redesign. That number doesn't include amount originally spent on the site. And the additional $8.5 Million that's been allocated to it for development past January. Hell, the design and development of this website probably created more jobs than the rest of the stimulus package. :D[/QUOTE]


Did you read the article? It seems like 90% of it talks about how beneficial the stimulus package has been, and how its absurd to draw any concrete data from the website and its more about allowing for some somewhat flawed transparency.
 
It's hard to say what might have been. Multiply that across the country, and you start to see why the grand total of jobs saved and created by the stimulus is not so much a statistic as a matter of opinion.
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If we can't trust the website (which, mind you, the website was supposed to be there to make the spending accountable... that's working well), when what are we supposed to go by?

How many jobs did Obama's stimulus save/create?

Any?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']If we can't trust the website (which, mind you, the website was supposed to be there to make the spending accountable... that's working well), when what are we supposed to go by?

How many jobs did Obama's stimulus save/create?

Any?[/QUOTE]


Not the site, but at least its there as an attempt to help people understand where their money is going..do I think someone is purposely manipulating the website for better results I don't think so. It's not perfect but do you have a better way to incorporate a somewhat open transparent way to view how the stimulus is working? Probably not. It's so much easier to bad mouth others solutions than come up with your own.
 
[quote name='gareman']Not the site, but at least its there as an attempt to help people understand where their money is going..do I think someone is purposely manipulating the website for better results I don't think so. It's not perfect but do you have a better way to incorporate a somewhat open transparent way to view how the stimulus is working? Probably not. It's so much easier to bad mouth others solutions than come up with your own.[/QUOTE]

I have a better solution.

Don't take money from private citizens at gun point to redistribute to failing companies.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I have a better solution.

Don't take money from private citizens at gun point to redistribute to failing companies.[/QUOTE]


Well that's a bit hyperbolic...but any way it already has been done...now what do we do? You are acting like those anti-war people I hated sharing a common purpose with "well what should be done about Iraq?" "I Know man they should have never lied to us to go get us to kill Iraqis!" that's a fine opinion but we were already over there and the decision was made the money spent the lives lost. So no that is not a real solution to just say you would have avoided the problem altogether.
 
"We report what the recipients submit to us. Some recipients clearly don't know what congressional district they live in, so they just throw in a number for their congressional district," Ed Pound, spokesman for the Recovery Accountability and Transparency Board, which operates Recovery.gov, said Monday.

...

The errors raised the ire of Rep. Dave Obey, D-Wisconsin, and chairman of the House Appropriations Committee. On Monday, he said the mistakes "are outrageous and the administration owes itself, the Congress and every American a commitment to work night and day to correct the ludicrous mistakes."

"Credibility counts in government, and stupid mistakes like this undermine it. We've got too many serious problems in this country to let that happen," Obey said.
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So it looks like they're taking it seriously and trying to fix it. Congress is even holding a panel hearing on it. What's the issue? That they didn't scrub the data before release?

OH. MY. GOD.
 
[quote name='gareman']Well that's a bit hyperbolic...but any way it already has been done...now what do we do? You are acting like those anti-war people I hated sharing a common purpose with "well what should be done about Iraq?" "I Know man they should have never lied to us to go get us to kill Iraqis!" that's a fine opinion but we were already over there and the decision was made the money spent the lives lost. So no that is not a real solution to just say you would have avoided the problem altogether.[/QUOTE]

For one, we can make sure, as citizens, that we don't let the government do it again. And let's try to do so without being called "tea baggers".
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']For one, we can make sure, as citizens, that we don't let the government do it again. And let's try to do so without being called "tea baggers".[/QUOTE]


Then as someone whom disagrees with the current policy makers and seems to me to be intelligent reasonable person thrust, you need to do what I did during the anti-iraq moment and do your best to shut up those likening our president to Hitler and screaming non-sense and not offering up realistic solutions.
 
[quote name='gareman']Then as someone whom disagrees with the current policy makers and seems to me to be intelligent reasonable person thrust, you need to do what I did during the anti-iraq moment and do your best to shut up those likening our president to Hitler and screaming non-sense and not offering up realistic solutions.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you and I will try.
 
another racist article to make Obama look bad. Give it up rednecks. The fact is that the stimulus IS saving our economy and you racist folks just couldn't stand the thought of a black man saving our country.
 
[quote name='gareman']Well that's a bit hyperbolic...but any way it already has been done...now what do we do? You are acting like those anti-war people I hated sharing a common purpose with "well what should be done about Iraq?" "I Know man they should have never lied to us to go get us to kill Iraqis!" that's a fine opinion but we were already over there and the decision was made the money spent the lives lost. So no that is not a real solution to just say you would have avoided the problem altogether.[/QUOTE]

Here's a start - how much of that Stimulus package is left to be spent?

Let's cancel that. Good idea?

[quote name='speedracer']So it looks like they're taking it seriously and trying to fix it. Congress is even holding a panel hearing on it. What's the issue? That they didn't scrub the data before release?

OH. MY. GOD.[/QUOTE]

I think the issue is more with the fact that the government can't seem to account for the millions of dollars they've blown. Period. Combined with the number of times someone from the Obama administration throws out these made up numbers of "jobs created or saved" - when we've found about as many WMD's in Iraq as it seems the stimulus has created worthwhile, sustainable jobs... that actually exist.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Here's a start - how much of that Stimulus package is left to be spent?

Let's cancel that. Good idea?[/QUOTE]

You beat me to the obvious reply. Yes, please, prevent the wasting of more money. Won't happen, but it should.
 
Prince and Bob aren't exactly the go to guys for much of anything but this seems like the least thing to trust their opinions on.

They want to pretend to be Hoover and party like it's 1929.
 
[quote name='rumblebear']another racist article to make Obama look bad. Give it up rednecks. The fact is that the stimulus IS saving our economy and you racist folks just couldn't stand the thought of a black man saving our country.[/QUOTE]

You are one of those people that believes any and all criticism of the president can always be called racist? Unless you were being sarcastic.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Here's a start - how much of that Stimulus package is left to be spent?

Let's cancel that. Good idea?
[/QUOTE]


No. Because you know how many businesses and city/state projects are depending on that money now that it has been promised to them (the suppliers)....you can't just cancel something like that, so no that is not a realistic solution.

Why do you and others continue to argue this. The Joe Biden interview I posted and the NPR article you posted all come to the same conclusion. That the concept of the website is to allow for somewhat flawed transparency and that gives the American people an idea of where the money is going, but in no way is it perfect, nor should it be used for hard evidence for any side of the argument.
 
recovery2.gif



It has worked so well.
 
[quote name='gareman']Not the site, but at least its there as an attempt to help people understand where their money is going..do I think someone is purposely manipulating the website for better results I don't think so. It's not perfect but do you have a better way to incorporate a somewhat open transparent way to view how the stimulus is working? Probably not. It's so much easier to bad mouth others solutions than come up with your own.[/QUOTE]

This is what happens when the leading intellectual in your movement is the famed economist Joe the Plumber.
 
There are people talking about how jobs have been "created" in districts that don't even exist with stimulus money. Then the other kid talked about how people are counting on this money to continue to save jobs. I then posted a graph showing that projected numbers on how much the stimulus would help the job market were completely wrong. Then you came in, made typical insult/msut style posts, and here we are.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']There are people talking about how jobs have been "created"[/quote]

Some have been just saved instead of created.

in districts that don't even exist with stimulus money.
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And in districts that actually exist, don't forget that.

Then the other kid talked about how people are counting on this money to continue to save jobs. I then posted a graph showing that projected numbers on how much the stimulus would help the job market were completely wrong.
Click to expand...

No one is going to say the projections were spot on, but that isn't the same thing as the stimulus did nothing good.

Then you came in, made typical insult/msut style posts, and here we are.
Click to expand...

If by "typical" you mean typically awesome then yes, if by insulting you mean I point out you are more or less act trollish then get over it or stop acting that way.
 
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