Decriminalization

jennie25

CAGiversary!
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At the top of this post is some legislation links sent forth by former presidential candidate Ron Paul and Democratic Governor of Massachusetts Barney Frank. Together they have sent these two packs to committees and will be revised or thrown away before they make it to congress for approval or denial. Please, whether you believe in marijuana or not, you have to agree it's unfair for a convicted child rapist to be free before someone who is busted for a marijuana crime! No victim, no crime! Send a letter to your local representatives so we can start to take back our human rights that so many people have taken away from us! When/If you send a letter, you can email six friends about it after, please tell everyone you can and thanks for reading!

Please keep this thread rolling!

-J
 
I dont smoke nor would I but I think it should be legalized and taxed to hell. Make it illegal to smoke in public and have strict penalties for doing so.

With that said, one thing has nothing to do with the other. They should make the punishment for being a child rapist worse rather then decrease everything else. Its like when people say "well alcohol is worse then pot". It is but who cares thats not a good way to make a convincing argument for this stuff.
 
[quote name='musha666']I dont smoke nor would I but I think it should be legalized and taxed to hell. Make it illegal to smoke in public and have strict penalties for doing so.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed. And use the money raised on prevention, treatment and education. Have to fight the demand, not the supply.

Other drugs I'd just decriminalize and hope that drives prices down and weakens the violent underground market.
 
[quote name='Hex']Psssst. Politics forum is that way.

im so hi rite nao:whee:[/QUOTE]


sorry, I didn't see a "politics" forum... but if any mod wants to move, feel free.

Why can't the world see things our way so far?
 
While just smoking at home is "victimless", you know people aren't going to follow that rule.

Recently, in my town, two 16-year olds were smoking weed in a parking lot, hopped in their car and drove across 4 lanes of highway and into the front of a building. Granted, they were probably pretty stupid to begin with, that situation was not victimless.

If it were to be legalized, law enforcement would have to work a hell of a lot harder to make sure people aren't smoking/high in public. I seriously don't think our country has the money or resources to babysit the people who smoke marijuana.
 
[quote name='reiji']While just smoking at home is "victimless", you know people aren't going to follow that rule.

Recently, in my town, two 16-year olds were smoking weed in a parking lot, hopped in their car and drove across 4 lanes of highway and into the front of a building. Granted, they were probably pretty stupid to begin with, that situation was not victimless.

If it were to be legalized, law enforcement would have to work a hell of a lot harder to make sure people aren't smoking/high in public. I seriously don't think our country has the money or resources to babysit the people who smoke marijuana.[/QUOTE]

But these types of things can easily be refuted by the standard argument of--alcohol is legal and they deal with it. Use money from taxes of legal sales to give them more resources if need be.

[quote name='JJSP']When drugs stop destroying families, then I'll agree with the "no victim" rhetoric.[/QUOTE]

Can also throw the alcohol is legal argument at that one. And gambing some places. And any other legal activity that can drive families apart.

Works for harder drugs that have worse effects on people than alcohol, but not for pot which has the same or less negative effects on people.
 
[quote name='JJSP']When drugs stop destroying families, then I'll agree with the "no victim" rhetoric.[/quote]

Agreed. I was actually just watching a piece on the local news about the presence of children in drug raids (yes, many included marijuana, not just coke/heroin). In about a third of the cases in my area, children were directly involved or forced to participate in drug use.

I never really got what the point of marijuana is anyway. I can understand having a few drinks with friends to loosen up, but if you want to have fun, there's plenty of better things to do. I live in a pretty boring/small city and there's lots of bowling alleys, clubs, pool halls, parks, malls, etc. in the immediate area. I have to deal with a lot of dumb stoners at work, so maybe I'm just bitter.
 
[quote name='JJSP']When drugs stop destroying families, then I'll agree with the "no victim" rhetoric.[/quote]

Survivors of tragedies are heroes and substance abusers are victims.

Ever wonder if 1984 actually happened and we just didn't notice.
 
[quote name='musha666']I dont smoke nor would I but I think it should be legalized and taxed to hell. Make it illegal to smoke in public and have strict penalties for doing so.

With that said, one thing has nothing to do with the other. They should make the punishment for being a child rapist worse rather then decrease everything else. Its like when people say "well alcohol is worse then pot". It is but who cares thats not a good way to make a convincing argument for this stuff.[/quote]

I thought that, musha, until I realized...

[quote name='reiji']If it were to be legalized, law enforcement would have to work a hell of a lot harder to make sure people aren't smoking/high in public. I seriously don't think our country has the money or resources to babysit the people who smoke marijuana.[/quote]

...keeping it a crime is the easiest way to deal with the issue. Legalizing marijuana would require a lot more effort and maintenance. Is that extra cost worth it? I don't believe so.
 
[quote name='reiji']Agreed. I was actually just watching a piece on the local news about the presence of children in drug raids (yes, many included marijuana, not just coke/heroin). In about a third of the cases in my area, children were directly involved or forced to participate in drug use.

I never really got what the point of marijuana is anyway. I can understand having a few drinks with friends to loosen up, but if you want to have fun, there's plenty of better things to do. I live in a pretty boring/small city and there's lots of bowling alleys, clubs, pool halls, parks, malls, etc. in the immediate area. I have to deal with a lot of dumb stoners at work, so maybe I'm just bitter.[/quote]


Pot has pretty much the same effect as alcohol. The main difference is that it doesn't impare you as much and it wares off a lot quicker. I don't really know how you can be ok with having a few drinks and not the other. I think that they should just legalize and tax it like cigarettes. Plus, you are going to have to deal with dumb people no matter where you are and it doesn't matter if their stoners or not because they will still be dumb.
 
[quote name='reiji']
I never really got what the point of marijuana is anyway. I can understand having a few drinks with friends to loosen up, but if you want to have fun, there's plenty of better things to do. I live in a pretty boring/small city and there's lots of bowling alleys, clubs, pool halls, parks, malls, etc. in the immediate area. I have to deal with a lot of dumb stoners at work, so maybe I'm just bitter.[/QUOTE]

The point is just the same as having a few drinks with friends.....

I haven't touched pot in years (probably close to a decade), but I'll never get why some people think it's worse than alcohol.

As for the latter, are dumb stoners any worse than dumb alcoholics?
 
[quote name='chasemurata']
...keeping it a crime is the easiest way to deal with the issue. Legalizing marijuana would require a lot more effort and maintenance. Is that extra cost worth it? I don't believe so.[/QUOTE]

Not really, it would just be checked for during checks for DUI and public drinking, not like they have to do anything they aren't already doing. And they wouldn't have to spend time raiding places for pot.

Add that on to being able to tax instead of all money from sales going to criminals and I just don't see an argument against it from a cost-benefit analysis.

The War on Drugs would go much better if they legalized and taxed pot and decriminalized use of hard drugs and spent more time on education, treatment etc. Attacking supply is a failure and has just further driven up costs on the black market and thus became the perfect source of funds for gangs etc. and all the inherent violence that comes along with them.
 
[quote name='mrlokievil']Pot has pretty much the same effect as alcohol. The main difference is that it doesn't impare you as much and it wares off a lot quicker. I don't really know how you can be ok with having a few drinks and not the other. I think that they should just legalize and tax it like cigarettes. Plus, you are going to have to deal with dumb people no matter where you are and it doesn't matter if their stoners or not because they will still be dumb.[/quote]

I italicized a few for a reason. I'm just as against getting shit-faced from alcohol as I am against being stoned.

I think the issue here isn't the law, it's human nature. Give people weed, they're going to get high. Give people alcohol, some will get drunk, some will drink responsibly. I've never heard of anyone smoking weed without the intent to get high.

Personally, I drink pretty often, and I've never been drunk in my life. I have one or two beers, then pace myself because I know my limits. I still have lots of fun with my friends and I'm always just as aware as I am sober.
 
What your missing is that getting high on pot isn't nearly as debilitating as getting shit faced.

Back in the day smoking a joint or two was on par with having 2 or 3 beers tops....far from being as out of it as being shitfaced on alcohol.

I'm much the same these days, I drink often as I'm a big beer fan/beer snob so I enjoy having a tasty brew. Seldom have more than 3 at any one time. Did get shitfaced plenty during undergrad though.
 
at this point, I have read all replies and I think we lost the point of this, it's the decriminalization of it, not the legalization!

This is for responsible adults, not kids, while obviously kids would get their hands on it, but I think the use of it would go DOWN with the decriminalization. In amsterdamn the use of it has gone down over the years.

As for the kids driving over four lanes and slamming into the building, how do you know it was the weed? There wasn't alcohol involved or some other stupid idea going through their mind?
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']What your missing is that getting high on pot isn't nearly as debilitating as getting shit faced.

Back in the day smoking a joint or two was on par with having 2 or 3 beers tops....far from being as out of it as being shitfaced on alcohol.

I'm much the same these days, I drink often as I'm a big beer fan/beer snob so I enjoy having a tasty brew. Seldom have more than 3 at any one time. Did get shitfaced plenty during undergrad though.[/quote]

I appreciate you explaining to me, I really didn't know that weed wasn't that 'potent'. I've just seen too many people in my high school days come back from lunch, reeking of marijuana and would just stare at the wall with their mouth wide open for the next hour. Maybe that's atypical?

As for the alcohol comparisons, remember alcohol was illegal at one point in our history. It seems like we're just replaying that.

I still just don't understand what the big fascination is. I feel like I must be missing out on some great glorious thing in life. :cool:
 
[quote name='reiji']would just stare at the wall with their mouth wide open for the next hour. Maybe that's atypical?
[/quote]

I'll do that with no illegal drugs in my body.
 
[quote name='reiji']While just smoking at home is "victimless", you know people aren't going to follow that rule.

Recently, in my town, two 16-year olds were smoking weed in a parking lot, hopped in their car and drove across 4 lanes of highway and into the front of a building. Granted, they were probably pretty stupid to begin with, that situation was not victimless.

If it were to be legalized, law enforcement would have to work a hell of a lot harder to make sure people aren't smoking/high in public. I seriously don't think our country has the money or resources to babysit the people who smoke marijuana.[/quote]

I don't think you can use that story as a representation of all pot smokers. Carl Sagan smoked weed and look at what he did with his life.
 
[quote name='Squall835']I don't think you can use that story as a representation of all pot smokers. Carl Sagan smoked weed and look at what he did with his life.[/QUOTE]

well said my friend, well said!
 
[quote name='the3rdkey']Our "free" country makes too much $$$ off fuckers in prison. This will never pass.[/quote]

That's weak logic. If they legalized it as well as restricted use just like alcohol, they'd make twice as much money as they are right now.

[quote name='reiji']While just smoking at home is "victimless", you know people aren't going to follow that rule.

Recently, in my town, two 16-year olds were smoking weed in a parking lot, hopped in their car and drove across 4 lanes of highway and into the front of a building. Granted, they were probably pretty stupid to begin with, that situation was not victimless.[/QUOTE]

But you can't attribute that solely to the weed just like some people can say that video games directly caused kids to do stupid stuff. Even if you somehow got rid of all the mind-altering substances including alcohol in the world, you'd still have stupid people doing stupid stuff. They just wouldn't be able to have a scapegoat anymore.

If it were to be legalized, law enforcement would have to work a hell of a lot harder to make sure people aren't smoking/high in public. I seriously don't think our country has the money or resources to babysit the people who smoke marijuana.

That's why legalizing it is the best option. Once it's legalized, tax the fcuk out of it. There's where your money/resources will come from. I think law enforcement is working harder right now looking for people who deal/grow weed. Better to legalize it, tax it when it's bought, and fine people when using heavy machinery or doing dangerous things while under the influence... just like what they already do w/ alcohol.

[quote name='chasemurata']I thought that, musha, until I realized...

...keeping it a crime is the easiest way to deal with the issue. Legalizing marijuana would require a lot more effort and maintenance. Is that extra cost worth it? I don't believe so.[/quote]

It's not really if you look at long term results. There's a lot of people in jail as it is already (who don't need to be) which requires high maintanence already just keeping them behind bars, as well as meeting their basic survival needs of food, drink, clothing, shelter & plumbing not to mention the amenities they get including television, sports & workout equipment. It's supposed to be prison not the YMCA! Let real criminals sit behind bars contemplating their actions and keep people who make small mistakes out & fined. That way, the ones who are fined still get punished but are able to go back to their lives. Legalizing it reduces the effort & maintanence it takes to pursue them because it won't be a criminal act any longer and reduced to a fine.

As for the alcohol comparisons, remember alcohol was illegal at one point in our history. It seems like we're just replaying that.

I still just don't understand what the big fascination is. I feel like I must be missing out on some great glorious thing in life. :cool:

Well, if Prohibition is really any indication, criminalizing alcohol didn't work out that great either.

[quote name='Squall835']I don't think you can use that story as a representation of all pot smokers. Carl Sagan smoked weed and look at what he did with his life.[/quote]

Forget Carl Sagan. Smoke weed (but don't inhale) and you could be president of the US!

Anyway, I haven't smoked weed for about 8-9 years and I'm only a social drinker now (I only drink when going out and someone else is the designated). I've seen the effects of both and they are pretty much in line w/ each other except that alcohol tends to work quicker. Really, educate people about it not just make it out to be the bogeyman it's not. Legalizing it benefits both the government as well as users.
 
[quote name='reiji']
As for the alcohol comparisons, remember alcohol was illegal at one point in our history. It seems like we're just replaying that.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly, we're stupidly replaying it. Prohibition led to mafia using alcohol to fund their operations and all the violence that came along with it.

Now the mafia, gangs and small time dealers use drugs for money and we have all the violence, urban plight and prison overcrowding that comes along with it.

Again, you have to fight the demand, not the supply. Prevention, treatment and education are the way to go.
 
That it was even outlawed in the first place is infuriating.

(1) Racism,
(2) An overzealous enforcement agency recently put out of work by prohibition's repeal needing a new "enemy" to fight to justify their existence, coupled with
(3) Rampant disinformation (Marijuana cigarettes make people go on crazy killing sprees), and
(4) Difficulty in taxing it (anybody can grow it), and
(5) Ignorance about the drug

have all lead to it being outlawed and made illegal. For the government to take a naturally occuring plant and outlaw the smoking of it, with no reasonable justification whatsoever is a tragedy of justice and a violation of civil rights. If G-d put plants and buds that I find and abuse, who the fuck are you to tell me I can't use it? The cornerstore sells finer scotch and you can buy guns on almost any street, but marijuana is the main menace to society?

Gimme a fuckin break.

And ANY AND ALL arguments that follow the reasoning "Marijuan should not be decriminalized because (insert negative effect here)" just get immediately blown the fuck out of the water by prohibition's repeal.

This issue is modern day prohibition. It's just that marijuana has less supporters and less users than alcohol did.

Alcohol is MUCH MUCH more disruptive than weed. Anybody who thinks differently has either never used both or just simply would personally prefer alcohol. Ask any cop: "Who would you rather have to deal with? A drunk or a pot smocker?"

Ask:

Who poses a greater threat to society? A drunk raving maniac or a lethargic vid. game playin pothead?

Who has better decision making abilities?

Who has better eye hand coordination?

Who can remember what they did last night? (hint, not the blacked out drunk)

Which drug is is physically possible to over-dose with? (hint, not weed, I've tried lol.)

Which drug will make you hook up with nasty looking fat people, then in the morning you remember you're married or in a relationship?

I'm not saying that America will be better if it is legal. I'm simply saying don't come to me with "It should be illegal b/c it's bad" arguments because you forfeit those with the legalization of alcohol.

Spare me your stories of "A kid I know smoked weed and killed himself" because that's lowering yourself to the Fox News illogic "Video gamer kills daughter." These fucks had problems that had absolutely NOTHING to do with weed or videogames.

The commercials where Timmy smokes a joint and goes and knocks up a girl or runs over a kid on a bike after the drivethru are no different than the bullshit propaghanda espoused in Reefer Madness which spread the lies and misinformation that made it's criminalization able to be choked down by the public in the firstplace. There is a reason that the government spends millions disseminating misinformation about marijuana: b/c they're gettin big bucks from tobacco and alcohol lobby to get off their backs!

As far s the "gateway" drug argument: better outlaw cigarettes too, b/c I don't know one single person who didn't start with a cigarette.

The cost-benefit analysis has been appropriately and effectively argued by Dmaul, but to repeat (1) There could be a TON of income from tax, (2) A TON of savings from not having potheads in prison, (3) A TON of savings from the cessation of the expensive PR disinformation campaign, and (4) A TON of savings from not putting the black market crimes through the CJ system, and (5) NO increased costs for DUI/public enforcement since all the enforcment infrastructure is already in place for alcohol.


Any other arguments out there I didn't address?
 
I would rather see legalization of lessor substances and narcotics with limited regulation and controlled distribution than decriminalization.
 
Let's not also forget that in the 1940's the goverment encouraged growing it for the war effort for cloth, ropes, and the told farmers they could "smoke" the leftovers to leave more tobacco for the soldiers.....They even made a movie "Hemp for Victory" ----- look it up

It wasn't till later in the 50's that it was made criminal.

Even going back to the founding fathers of this country, Hemp was traded like currancy....

And don't even get me started on the whole tobacco thing.....this country was founded on it.....Thats all Virginia was for years....


(And yes I knw I can't spell or punctuate...I was more of a math guy)
(And why yes I used to smoke both weed and cigs, but have stopped both, but have a hard time with the bullshit they cram down the average persons gullette)
 
Personally, I have smoked a few times in my life. I enjoyed it enough that I'd do it occasionally if it was legal. But, between the hassles of procuring drugs and the risk at my job if I have any on me and they drug test, it just isn't worth it, when alcohol is readily avaliable for an altered state.

That being said, I'm all for it being legal. The idea that it would be a huge hassle on the police to keep people from smoking in public (which is bad because of contact buzzes) is interesting. Yet, I don't think that's a good enough reason to stop me from doing something in my house. Also, these aren't slap on your wrist penalties. If I get a jaywalking ticket, I pay a few bucks, and it's done. Pot, I pay, may have to go to a drug abuse class, and I could lose my job. Those are major implications.

Also, how hard will the police work. I've been to concerts with kids several times (not kids with me, kids being there) and I've gotten contact highs off of people smoking, but no police to be found. So, they don't seem too concerned there. Also, places have effectively moved smoking to out of the way places, so I doubt pot will be that huge of a deal.
 
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