Do Al Gore, Democrats Really Want to Keep the Government From Finding al Qaeda Agents

PittsburghAfterDark

CAGiversary!
BY VICTORIA TOENSING
Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST

In a speech last week, Al Gore took another swing at the National Security Agency's electronic surveillance program, which monitors international communications when one party is affiliated with terrorists. Specifically, Mr. Gore argued that George Bush "has been breaking the law repeatedly and persistently," and that such actions might constitute an impeachable offense. The question he raises is whether the president illegally bypassed the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). But the real issue is national security: FISA is as adept at detecting--and, thus, preventing--a terrorist attack as a horse-and-buggy is at getting us from New York to Paris.

I have extensive experience with the consequences of government bungling due to overstrict interpretations of FISA. As chief counsel for the Senate Intelligence Committee from 1981 to 1984, I participated in oversight of FISA in the first years after its passage. When I subsequently became deputy assistant attorney general in the Reagan administration, one of my responsibilities was the terrorism portfolio, which included working with FISA.

In 1985, I experienced the pain of terminating a FISA wiretap when to do so defied common sense and thwarted the possibility of gaining information about American hostages. During the TWA 847 hijacking, American serviceman Robert Stethem was murdered and the remaining American male passengers taken hostage. We had a previously placed tap in the U.S. and thought there was a possibility we could learn the hostages' location. But Justice Department career lawyers told me that the FISA statute defined its "primary purpose" as foreign intelligence gathering. Because crimes were taking place, the FBI had to shut down the wire.

FISA's "primary purpose" became the basis for the "wall" in 1995, when the Clinton-Gore Justice Department prohibited those on the intelligence side from even communicating with those doing law enforcement. The Patriot Act corrected this problem and the FISA appeals court upheld the constitutionality of that amendment, characterizing the rigid interpretation as "puzzling." The court cited an FBI agent's testimony that efforts to investigate two of the Sept. 11 hijackers were blocked by senior FBI officials, concerned about the FISA rule requiring separation.

Today, FISA remains ill-equipped to deal with ever-changing terrorist threats. It was never envisioned to be a speedy collector of information to prevent an imminent attack on our soil. And the reasons the president might decide to bypass FISA courts are readily understandable, as it is easy to conjure up scenarios like the TWA hijacking, in which strict adherence to FISA would jeopardize American lives.
The overarching problem is that FISA, written in 1978, is technologically antediluvian. It was drafted by legislators who had no concept of how terrorists could communicate in the 21st century or the technology that would be invented to intercept those communications. The rules regulating the acquisition of foreign intelligence communications were drafted when the targets to be monitored had one telephone number per residence and all the phones were plugged into the wall. Critics like Al Gore and especially critics in Congress, rather than carp, should address the gaps created by a law that governs peacetime communications-monitoring but does not address computers, cell phones or fiber optics in the midst of war.

The NSA undoubtedly has identified many foreign phone numbers associated with al Qaeda. If these numbers are monitored only from outside the U.S., as consistent with FISA requirements, the agency cannot determine with certainty the location of the persons who are calling them, including whether they are in the U.S. New technology enables the president, via NSA, to establish an early-warning system to alert us immediately when any person located in the U.S. places a call to, or receives a call from, one of the al Qaeda numbers. Do Mr. Gore and congressional critics want the NSA to be unable to locate a secret al Qaeda operative in the U.S.?

If we had used this ability before 9/11, as the vice president has noted, we could have detected the presence of Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi in San Diego, more than a year before they crashed American Airlines Flight 77 into the Pentagon.

And to correct an oft-cited misconception, there are no five-minute "emergency" taps. FISA still requires extensive time-consuming procedures. To prepare the two- to three-inch thick applications for nonemergency warrants takes months. The so-called emergency procedure cannot be done in a few hours, let alone minutes. The attorney general is not going to approve even an emergency FISA intercept based on a breathless call from NSA.

For example, al Qaeda Agent X, having a phone under FISA foreign surveillance, travels from Pakistan to New York. The FBI checks airline records and determines he is returning to Pakistan in three hours. Background information must be prepared and the document delivered to the attorney general. By that time, Agent X has done his business and is back on the plane to Pakistan, where NSA can resume its warrantless foreign surveillance. Because of the antiquated requirements of FISA, the surveillance of Agent X has to cease only during the critical hours he is on U.S. soil, presumably planning the next attack.

Even if time were not an issue, any emergency FISA application must still establish the required probable cause within 72 hours of placing the tap. So al Qaeda Agent A is captured in Afghanistan and has Agent B's number in his cell phone, which is monitored by NSA overseas. Agent B makes two or three calls every day to Agent C, who flies to New York. That chain of facts, without further evidence, does not establish probable cause for a court to believe that C is an agent of a foreign power with information about terrorism. Yet, post 9/11, do the critics want NSA to cease monitoring Agent C just because he landed on U.S. soil?

Why did the president not ask Congress in 2001 to amend FISA to address these problems? My experience is instructive. After the TWA incident, I suggested asking the Hill to change the law. A career Justice Department official responded, "Congress will make it a political issue and we may come away with less ability to monitor." The political posturing by Democrats who suddenly found problems with the NSA program after four years of supporting it during classified briefings only confirms that concern.
It took 9/11 for Congress to pass the amendment breaking down the "wall," which had been on the Justice Department's wish list for 16 years. And that was just the simple tweak of changing two words. The issues are vastly more complicated now, requiring an entirely new technical paradigm, which could itself become obsolete with the next communications innovation.

There are other valid reasons for the president not to ask Congress for a legislative fix. To have public debate informs terrorists how we monitor them, harming our intelligence-gathering to an even greater extent than the New York Times revelation about the NSA program. Asking Congress for legislation would also weaken the legal argument, cited by every administration since 1978, that the president has constitutional authority beyond FISA to conduct warrantless wiretaps to acquire foreign intelligence information.

The courts may ultimately decide the legality of the NSA program. Meanwhile, the public should decide whether it wants NSA to monitor terrorists, or wait while congressional critics and Al Gore fiddle.

Ms. Toensing, a Washington lawyer, was chief counsel for the Senate Intelligence Committee and deputy assistant attorney general in the Reagan administration.

Link
 
I can't believe, for the life of me, how right wing spinsters try to play the "if we could have done this before 9/11 we could have been able to prevent some or all of it" game. It's not something that's stated outright, but the implications made in the above Op-Ed are obvious. Given the outright denial of imformation leading up to the events of 9/11, I would imagine that the transition of investing administrative efforts into examining terrorism (taking the accusations of early Bush administration disinterest leveled by Richard Clarke) had a great deal more to do than the nightmare known as FISA. 9/11 was a combination of inefficiency between various investigative organizations of the government, a stubborn culture of disbelief that the United States could ever be attacked on its own soil, and the inherent disinterest of the new administration. The ability to tap two phone calls would not have changed anything. Wasn't one of the hijackers arrested (Moussaoui) prior to 9/11 (I could be off base here)? If that's the case, why make this phony implication that wiretaps could have made the difference?

4 rejected warrants prior to the Bush administration, and people want to try to frame FISA as some sort of churlish bureaucratic nightmare. You may even completely ignore the fact that they permit retroactive filings for warrants. What Bush has done was, and remains, illegal. You cannot deny that point any more than you can cite 10 year old "chipper clip" stories, misrepresent actions by previous sitting presidents to coimplicate them, or simply try to paint a picture of a doomsday scenario in order to instill that "shut up and let Commandante Bush do his job!" fear that has worked so well for your party in a post-9/11 world.

You're willing to let every last one of your civil liberties disappear, you're willing to live in a military state, where every action is observable, where they want speaking out to get you arrested, where your porn searches are the interest of government, and where we live in perpetual fear of the "next big attack," something that has worked at quelling mass frustration with the direction of this country far better than any pop-culture "American Idol" phenomenon that keeps us fat, full of beer and chips, and on the couch. You're more than happy to live in that world of freedom, so long as it coincides with the peace of mind that "your team" is the one in control.

And here I thought you were a tough guy. Shame to see someone so hypermasculine at times prove himself to be a pushover when it comes to having your freedom taken away. I recommend you take a look at the brief dialogue between John Cornyn and Russ Feingold that is on EZB's signature. Your support of a willingly capitulative government is contrary to that tough guy "Let's blow the fuck out of ______ and let god sort 'em out" mentality you seem to frequently embrace.




It's not that I and the party I support are without contradictions, but none so egregious as demanding small government, lower taxation, and simulataneously defending the broad reaching federalism that the government has been engaging in, time and time again, each moment chipping away at what makes you and I uniquely American.
 
Didn't "President" Bush get all Bin Laden's family out of the USA after 9-11? Oh yes he did... So who is helping who?
 
The top part of the article makes a convincing case for rewriting the FISA law. Then we have the part below:

[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Why did the president not ask Congress in 2001 to amend FISA to address these problems? My experience is instructive. After the TWA incident, I suggested asking the Hill to change the law. A career Justice Department official responded, "Congress will make it a political issue and we may come away with less ability to monitor." The political posturing by Democrats who suddenly found problems with the NSA program after four years of supporting it during classified briefings only confirms that concern.
It took 9/11 for Congress to pass the amendment breaking down the "wall," which had been on the Justice Department's wish list for 16 years. And that was just the simple tweak of changing two words. The issues are vastly more complicated now, requiring an entirely new technical paradigm, which could itself become obsolete with the next communications innovation.

There are other valid reasons for the president not to ask Congress for a legislative fix. To have public debate informs terrorists how we monitor them, harming our intelligence-gathering to an even greater extent than the New York Times revelation about the NSA program. Asking Congress for legislation would also weaken the legal argument, cited by every administration since 1978, that the president has constitutional authority beyond FISA to conduct warrantless wiretaps to acquire foreign intelligence information.

The courts may ultimately decide the legality of the NSA program. Meanwhile, the public should decide whether it wants NSA to monitor terrorists, or wait while congressional critics and Al Gore fiddle.
[/QUOTE]

So, in other words, they didn't ask to change it because it would become too political. Guess what: we are a democracy and we decide things in an open political way. If it became political and the people through their representatives reject increased powers or even want then to restrict them, that's how it should be, not something to be feared. We shouldn't rely on government bureaucrats to determine our laws; we should have them debated and voted on openly. I think the excuse given in the article is a very, very poor attempt at excusing what has happened.

Harp on about how Al Gore is a hypocrite; I certainly won't disagree with you. But the fact is that if the president needed new authority, he should have asked Congress to pass a new law. We are a democracy, not rule by executive order.

Fear-mongering is a sad excuse for a real argument when it comes to these things I would note as well. If this authority would have prevented 9/11 or been an improvement, each administration since 1978 seems culpable for not seeking increased authority and having that national debate instead of just trying to fudge the law in the shadows.
 
[quote name='David85']Didn't "President" Bush get all Bin Laden's family out of the USA after 9-11? Oh yes he did... So who is helping who?[/QUOTE]

Why do you put president in quotes?
 
We were never at war with al quaeda, a few bunker buster bombs in tora bora and it was over and done with! on to Iraq where "mission accomplished" was the moto, a mask term for failure, failure of intelligence, failure of planning, a failure on all fronts...

All that this administration has been riding on is scare tactics, your opinionated garbage of an article proves this in spades, I can see you setting up bunkers in your room in preperation for the next attack. Hell the administration HAD the memo for 911, did they utilize that intelligence then? Nope...

Thanks for another bias opinionated look into your politics PAD, you're a true cut & paste expert.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Why do you put president in quotes?[/QUOTE]

Probably because he lost the 2000 election. The 'liberal' media hasn't bothered to report it, but there's really no doubt left but that Gore won (and by a fairly wide margin) in Florida in 2000. The number of people (and almost entirely black) who didn't get their votes counted is really quite breathtaking.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand: If Bush wants to discuss making changes to the way FISA works, he's perfectly free to do so. As was already said, that's the way a democracy works. If he wants to declare himself above the law and beyond the authority of Congress - well, that's call treason.
 
[quote name='Drocket']Probably because he lost the 2000 election. The 'liberal' media hasn't bothered to report it, but there's really no doubt left but that Gore won (and by a fairly wide margin) in Florida in 2000. The number of people (and almost entirely black) who didn't get their votes counted is really quite breathtaking.
[/QUOTE]


also, considering that exit polls showed john kerry winning by a considerable margin.

But, who needs evidence right? We didn't need it to go into Iraq!
 
No need to even bring up exit polls: the votes themselves tell the story:

About two-thirds of the spoiled ballots were over-votes; many or most of them would have been write-in over-votes, where people had punched and written in a candidate’s name. And nobody looked at this, not even the Florida Supreme Court in the last decision it made requiring a statewide recount. Nobody had thought about it except Judge Terry Lewis, who was overseeing the statewide recount when it was halted by the U.S. Supreme Court. The write-in over-votes have really not gotten much attention. Those votes are not ambiguous. When you see Gore picked and then Gore written in, there’s not a question in your mind who this person was voting for. When you go through those, they’re unambiguous: Bush got some of those votes, but they were overwhelmingly for Gore. For example, in an analysis of the 2.7 million votes that had been cast in Florida’s eight largest counties, The Washington Post found that Gore’s name was punched on 46,000 of the over-vote ballots it, while Bush’s name was marked on only 17,000.

-----

One of the things I found that hadn’t been reported anywhere is, if you look at where those votes occurred, they were in predominantly black precincts. And (when you look at) the history of black voting in Florida, these are people that have been disenfranchised, intimidated. In the history of the early 20th century, black votes would be thrown out on technicalities, like they would use an X instead of a check mark.
So you can understand why African Americans would be so careful, checking off Gore’s name on the list of candidates and also writing Gore’s name in the space for write-in votes. But because of the way the vote-counting machines work, this had the opposite effect: the machines threw out their ballots.

This is actually just one of many ways in which legitimate votes were not counted. The simple reality is that had a full recount of the state been permitted, Gore would have won the election beyond any doubt. The votes were there for him. They simply weren't counted.
 
I know. What I'm saying, though, is that for the 2000 election, we don't need to 'guess' at the outcome based on exit polls and the like. Gore got the votes, and they weren't counted. Its just that simple. There's no need to point to hypotheticals - the actual, physical votes themselves tell the story quite plainly.
 
[quote name='Drocket']I know. What I'm saying, though, is that for the 2000 election, we don't need to 'guess' at the outcome based on exit polls and the like. Gore got the votes, and they weren't counted. Its just that simple. There's no need to point to hypotheticals - the actual, physical votes themselves tell the story quite plainly.[/QUOTE]

Do you really want to go through this again? Republicans will rightly point to disallowed military votes and selective recounts...
 
I always thought republicans were for smaller less controlling and restrictive government, I think the Bush administrations views are in a league of their own. I think for the most part people agree with that, hell on C-SPANS washington journal they changed the label for the "support republican views" to "support bush's views" :lol:
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Do you really want to go through this again? Republicans will rightly point to disallowed military votes and selective recounts...[/QUOTE]

The military votes that weren't counted were tiny compared to the number of other votes that weren't counted. And there's no need to even discuss selective recounts: if the entire state had been recounted (and recounted CORRECTLY, using the actual legal standards for counting as opposed to Cathrine Harris's "whatever will favor the Republicans today" standards), Florida would have gone for Gore in 2000. That's not even including 'debatable' factors such as the illegal butterfly ballot, which would have given Gore even MORE votes - thats simply a discussion of the ballots that were legally cast, as they were cast.

Of course, as our Supreme Court says, although everyone has a right to vote, nobody has a right to ensure that their vote counts. I'm sure our founding fathers would have a thing or two to say about that...
 
Not one media recount of the Florida vote in 2000 came out in favor of Gore. Despite legions of independent counts, recounts and every method under the sun being used no recount done by any media company or special interest group came up with Gore "victory".

If you like to believe the myth and hold on to it as solace late at night lamenting 8 years of Bush that's fine. People once believed in the myths of Jupiter (Roman), Zeus (Greek), Mars, Poseiden and thought the river Styx led to Hades where you had a three headed dog named Cerberus guarding the land of the dead. I expect liberals to hold the same kind of faith in the Florida recount myth for several hundred years just like the Romans and Greeks believed in their myths.
 
[quote name='Drocket']The military votes that weren't counted were tiny compared to the number of other votes that weren't counted. And there's no need to even discuss selective recounts: if the entire state had been recounted (and recounted CORRECTLY, using the actual legal standards for counting as opposed to Cathrine Harris's "whatever will favor the Republicans today" standards), Florida would have gone for Gore in 2000. That's not even including 'debatable' factors such as the illegal butterfly ballot, which would have given Gore even MORE votes - thats simply a discussion of the ballots that were legally cast, as they were cast.

Of course, as our Supreme Court says, although everyone has a right to vote, nobody has a right to ensure that their vote counts. I'm sure our founding fathers would have a thing or two to say about that...[/QUOTE]

Okay, you do want to go through this again. Here's a liberal news source that hardly backs up what you are saying

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/florida.ballots/stories/main.html

FACT: Studies after the election determined that if recounts had proceeded in the way they were planned, Bush still would have won.

FACT: A Democrat designed the much-maligned "butterfly" ballot.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Okay, you do want to go through this again. Here's a liberal news source that hardly backs up what you are saying

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/florida.ballots/stories/main.html[/quote]

The fact that CNN can be considered a liberal source should probably be quite frightening. The fact that their reporting sometimes seems to have at least SOME connection to reality (unlike, say, Fox) probably makes that at least marginally correct... Anyway...

FACT: Studies after the election determined that if recounts had proceeded in the way they were planned, Bush still would have won.
Entirely true. Because they way they were planned to be done was wrong (see the link the article I previously gave for some beginning reasons why, and search for more information about that researcher's studies if you want more information and greater specifics.)

FACT: A Democrat designed the much-maligned "butterfly" ballot.
I didn't say it wasn't. Never-the-less, it took many votes away from Gore, violating the intent of the voters in the state of Florida.
 
I like how right-wingers say...If we had done this before 9/11 it wouldn't have happened.

But what about the dozen other things Bush could have done before 9/11 like, oh, read memos, know who Bin Laden was, listen to his advisors, Not cut funding for terrorism, etc that wouldn't even touch civil liberties.

yeah but illegal wiretaps would've saved the day...
 
[quote name='usickenme']I like how right-wingers say...If we had done this before 9/11 it wouldn't have happened.

But what about the dozen other things Bush could have done before 9/11 like, oh, read memos, know who Bin Laden was, listen to his advisors, Not cut funding for terrorism, etc that wouldn't even touch civil liberties.

yeah but illegal wiretaps would've saved the day...[/QUOTE]

I like how Clinton could have also captured Bin Laden. :roll:

So do you actually have a point? Or is it that you just like taking pot shots from your blind perspective?
 
[quote name='AFStealth']is it that you just like taking pot shots from your blind perspective?[/QUOTE]


Would a clear mind offer such a vague conclusion?
 
[quote name='AFStealth']I like how Clinton could have also captured Bin Laden.[/QUOTE]


Holy shit you are alive.

Still waiting for your response.

By the by the whole "Clinton coulda caught Osama" via Sudan is false.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Not one media recount of the Florida vote in 2000 came out in favor of Gore. Despite legions of independent counts, recounts and every method under the sun being used no recount done by any media company or special interest group came up with Gore "victory".

If you like to believe the myth and hold on to it as solace late at night lamenting 8 years of Bush that's fine. People once believed in the myths of Jupiter (Roman), Zeus (Greek), Mars, Poseiden and thought the river Styx led to Hades where you had a three headed dog named Cerberus guarding the land of the dead. I expect liberals to hold the same kind of faith in the Florida recount myth for several hundred years just like the Romans and Greeks believed in their myths.[/QUOTE]

Not true. I remember reading in my local paper about the results of the overvotes going overwhelmingly to Gore. Keep in mind, this was at least 2 years after the election. Gore should have been president.
 
So the argument from the original article seems to be: FISA is not effective enough, but if it's rewritten, it could be even less effective so we should violate it now rather than rewrite it and violate it later.

Yeah, that should hold up. :roll:
 
[quote name='AFStealth']I like how Clinton could have also captured Bin Laden. :roll:

So do you actually have a point? Or is it that you just like taking pot shots from your blind perspective?[/QUOTE]

me blind??

My point is fairly obvious. For the Bush Adminstration to say that illegal wiretaps could have preventend 9/11, then ignore the other things they could have done is asinine.

It's the "it's not my fault, it's the system" is a 3rd grade line of reasoning.

But I guess if you believe Clinton could have captured Osama, you'll believe anything.

Granted, Clinton could have focused on Bin Laden sooner but you need history lesson son. During his final years, Clinton increased military spend specifically to fight islamic terrorism and Bin Laden. You may not like the methods he chose but at least Clinton was aware of the problem. Bush was clueless or careless.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Do Al Gore, Democrats Really Want to Keep the Government From Finding al Qaeda Agents?[/QUOTE]

What an incredibly stupid question. Yeah Al Gore wants terrorists to roam free killing people. And the Democrats are sad that the Nazis lost.

GIVE ME A BREAK. Can you do us Republicans a favor? Drop Out. We don't want dummies like you in our party.
 
[quote name='electrictroy']GIVE ME A BREAK. Can you do us Republicans a favor? Drop Out. We don't want dummies like you in our party.[/QUOTE]
I hope you get your wish. Without the "dummies" that support Dubya right or wrong, the GOP will be lucky to field a softball team.
 
Sorry, I can't let the "what a cop out" comment go unchallenged. Usickenme is just that, a sickening example of the undereducated youth of this country who read newspapers and listen to CNN andd think they're informed.

Do Al Gore, Democrats Really Want to Keep the Government From Finding al Qaeda Agents ? Yes, I think they do wan't to prevent us from finding them. Finding domestic terrorists would bring to light a problem they have tried to deny for years : That there really are people who want to kill americans for no other reason that we exist - and they are here.

Kerry's comments during the '04 campaign, "'We have to get back to the place we were, where terrorists are not the focus of our lives, but they're a nuisance...," outline perfectly how trivial they think terrorism is, should be, or can become again against the US. They want to take the immediate focus off terrorism and claim it has little significance so they can compare all of Bush's actions against it as reactionary and illegitimate.

They deny the fact that these terrorists are our enemies and want to destroy us. They think they can be reasoned with and negociated with into a simple nuisance, like dandruff. They also think it's a war we can't win so they don't understand wanting to commit to a cause that's assumed unwinable. Look at the Alito filabuster debacle as proof that they can't bring themselves tp fight for ANY principle, especially ones that seem to difficult to defend.
 
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