Does anyone know why atoms don't collapse into themselves?

PhrostByte

PhrostByte

CAG Newbie
Here's some things I understand, at least partially..

1. Electrons are negatively charges particles, the nuclei of atoms are positively charged. Let's say for example, basic monoatomic hydrogen, will have a +1 charged proton, no neutron, and one -1 charged electron. It would seem that they would crash into each other eventually either because:
  • A non-moving electron would instantly crash into the nucleus.
  • A moving electron would orbit around the nucleus and eventually crash into it.
2. I understand that particles, specifically electrons, behave as particles as well as waves. I also understand that increasing the overall energy of an electron will promote it to a higher quantum state (n). Since energy must be conserved, the byproduct is electromagnetic radiation.

3. But considering that, I still don't get why electrons don't crash into nuclei. Sure, electrons might behave like waves, but aren't they waves around the nuclei? Isn't the nuclei a lot more massive and stronger than electrons? Does anyone know why? (Maybe I just haven't read far enough...)
 
[quote name='PhrostByte']Here's some things I understand, at least partially..

1. Electrons are negatively charges particles, the nuclei of atoms are positively charged. Let's say for example, basic monoatomic hydrogen, will have a +1 charged proton, no neutron, and one -1 charged electron. It would seem that they would crash into each other eventually either because:
  • A non-moving electron would instantly crash into the nucleus.
  • A moving electron would orbit around the nucleus and eventually crash into it.
2. I understand that particles, specifically electrons, behave as particles as well as waves. I also understand that increasing the overall energy of an electron will promote it to a higher quantum state (n). Since energy must be conserved, the byproduct is electromagnetic radiation.

3. But considering that, I still don't get why electrons don't crash into nuclei. Sure, electrons might behave like waves, but aren't they waves around the nuclei? Isn't the nuclei a lot more massive and stronger than electrons? Does anyone know why? (Maybe I just haven't read far enough...)[/QUOTE]

:whistle2:s
 
AtomicBombCloud2.jpg
 
Here's some things I understand, at least partially..

1. Electrons are negatively charges particles, the nuclei of atoms are positively charged. Let's say for example, basic monoatomic hydrogen, will have a +1 charged proton, no neutron, and one -1 charged electron. It would seem that they would crash into each other eventually either because:
  • A non-moving electron would instantly crash into the nucleus.
  • A moving electron would orbit around the nucleus and eventually crash into it.
2. I understand that particles, specifically electrons, behave as particles as well as waves. I also understand that increasing the overall energy of an electron will promote it to a higher quantum state (n). Since energy must be conserved, the byproduct is electromagnetic radiation.

3. But considering that, I still don't get why electrons don't crash into nuclei. Sure, electrons might behave like waves, but aren't they waves around the nuclei? Isn't the nuclei a lot more massive and stronger than electrons? Does anyone know why? (Maybe I just haven't read far enough...)
 
[quote name='PhrostByte']Here's some things I understand, at least partially..

1. Electrons are negatively charges particles, the nuclei of atoms are positively charged. Let's say for example, basic monoatomic hydrogen, will have a +1 charged proton, no neutron, and one -1 charged electron. It would seem that they would crash into each other eventually either because:
  • A non-moving electron would instantly crash into the nucleus.
  • A moving electron would orbit around the nucleus and eventually crash into it.
2. I understand that particles, specifically electrons, behave as particles as well as waves. I also understand that increasing the overall energy of an electron will promote it to a higher quantum state (n). Since energy must be conserved, the byproduct is electromagnetic radiation.

3. But considering that, I still don't get why electrons don't crash into nuclei. Sure, electrons might behave like waves, but aren't they waves around the nuclei? Isn't the nuclei a lot more massive and stronger than electrons? Does anyone know why? (Maybe I just haven't read far enough...)[/QUOTE]

:whistle2:s
 
if you sit around and think this hard about stuff like that, then you have too much free time.
 
Atoms don't look like they do in pictures.

It's size varies depending on how it''s squished.

Like the little lines they draw around the nucleus, if you squish 'em or poke em or some shit with enough force , the electron moves to a different line. It always keeps a certain distant cause of some sort of energy or something.

Quantum Physics.
 
Lisa: "Wow, look at the wonders of technology now."
Homer: "Wonders, Lisa, or blunders?"
Lisa: "I think that was implied in what I said."
Homer: "Implied, Lisa, or implode?"

LOL!
 
[quote name='bmsdaddy']I was wondering the same thing the other day. I found the answer here- http://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/Outreach/Education/Answer_2_-_Electron_Crash/[/quote]

Thanks but I still don't get it... I just don't get quantum mechanics at all it seems.

The electron orbits the nucleus, it converts potential energy into kinetic energy in the process, in the form of both work (movement) and radiation (electromagnetic radiation waves). So... why doesn't it spiral in? I understand the whole part of electron quantum states and how the electron can only go to a certain minimum quantum state... but why.. why.. why!

Furthermore, it says that "it’s as if there’s some sort of a quantum repulsion caused by Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle preventing the electron from spiralling in too far"
And "his means that, hypothetically, if an electron started to spiral into its nucleus that, as it did so, we would tend to come to know less and less about its momentum due to the fact that
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would tend to decrease. This, in turn, would mean that it would probably become more likely that the magnitude of
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was very large. It would also imply that the electron’s energy
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would tend to become large as
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,
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, where
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is mass and
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is potential energy."

Well ok... how come knowing less and less about it's momentum would mean that the magnitude potential energy starts to decrease?

I don't get this... Thus, if an electron did start spiralling into its nucleus, Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle would tend to cause its energy to actually increase (at least on average) as it got closer and closer due to an increase in the uncertainty of its momentum.
 
[quote name='getmeoutofjoliet']The electron can't come off of it's little loop path thingy. And if it does it jumps onto another loop thingy.[/quote]

AFAIK, that's about it. Electrons can only exist in energy levels. You can stand on the floor, and you can stand on a chair, but you can't stand on the air between the floor and the chair. It's the same thing with energy levels.
 
Where is that Science CAG? His avatar is the cake is lie, and he usually has physics equations in his signature.

I think his name is Liquid?
 
[quote name='doraemonkerpal']
Homer: "Implied, Lisa, or implode?"

LOL![/QUOTE]

I've always loved that line.:lol:
 
[quote name='Maklershed']Isn't the more intriguing question, why can't a piece of paper be folded in half more than eight times?[/quote]

I've heard that before, and I don't get it. How is there a limit on the number of times you can fold paper?
 
[quote name='Rocko']I've heard that before, and I don't get it. How is there a limit on the number of times you can fold paper?[/quote]

I dont know but I've tried it a few times with a few different pieces, types, sizes of paper and it's true.
 
[quote name='Maklershed']I dont know but I've tried it a few times with a few different pieces, types, sizes of paper and it's true.[/quote]

If you get a large piece of paper (like, y'know, a few feet by a few feet for a poster or something) it would be simple to fold it more, I'd think.
 
While I am only a High School aged kid who recently went through Physics, here is what I believe is correct.

Electrons and their respective nucleus, can never touch each other unless there is an outside force applied. It is very similar to the way that gravity keeps the moon orbiting around the earth and the earth around the sun. However this isn't really the best way of describing it, because they aren't little circles rotating around other circles, it is more like the electrons are smeared around the nucleus.

If you were saying that a moving electron would eventually crash into the nucleus, well why would it? The nucleus isn't necessarily larger or more massive then the amount of electrons, at least to my understanding, it varies depending on the atom, that is why some are very stable(They are balanced) and some are unstable (They are unbalanced). I also believe that electrons have to keep moving. They cannot stand still.

Finally, Electrons can only move around the nucleus in a pre-set manner, at least in nature. However when man messes with this, all sorts of things can happen.
 
[quote name='darthbudge']While I am only a High School aged kid who recently went through Physics, here is what I believe is correct.

Electrons and their respective nucleus, can never touch each other unless there is an outside force applied. It is very similar to the way that gravity keeps the moon orbiting around the earth and the earth around the sun. However this isn't really the best way of describing it, because they aren't little circles rotating around other circles, it is more like the electrons are smeared around the nucleus.

If you were saying that a moving electron would eventually crash into the nucleus, well why would it? The nucleus isn't necessarily larger or more massive then the amount of electrons, at least to my understanding, it varies depending on the atom, that is why some are very stable(They are balanced) and some are unstable (They are unbalanced). I also believe that electrons have to keep moving. They cannot stand still.

Finally, Electrons can only move around the nucleus in a pre-set manner, at least in nature. However when man messes with this, all sorts of things can happen.[/quote]

Protons and neutrons are much more massive than electrons. That's why I'm thinking they should eventually connect with one another. I mean look.. electrons orbit the nuclei somewhat like a planet orbits a star... but a planet retains it's orbit for a number of reasons, one is that everything outside the planet has gravitational pull on it... not just the star it orbits. This is different from the way an electron orbits nuclei I think.

I realize that electrons jump orbits when they're excited and there can only be specific paths for jumping... but I still don't get why the electron doesn't just crash in? What opposing force keeps it retaining it's energy?
 
[quote name='Rocko']If you get a large piece of paper (like, y'know, a few feet by a few feet for a poster or something) it would be simple to fold it more, I'd think.[/quote]

Yeah there's no reason why you can't fold paper more than 8 times.. that's retarded.
 
There was a mythbusters episode that covered the number of times you can fold paper. Even though the paper they used was huge (aircraft hanger huge) they folded it about a dozen time i believe.
 
[quote name='Maklershed']I'm telling ya .. try it. Go get paper right now and try to fold it in half more than eight times.[/quote]

It's possible with a really large piece of paper man.
 
[quote name='Maklershed']I'm telling ya .. try it. Go get paper right now and try to fold it in half more than eight times.[/quote]

I tried it and didn't get very far but I don't have any oversized/overly thin paper.
 
btw thanks for posting that site bmsdaddy... question 3 was very intruiging...

I didn't realize that mass was relative... but it makes sense, if e=mc2, and it actually is... then m must be equal to e/c2 also... pretty interesting.
 
Don't know much about the electron falling into the nucleus... but I've heard that it can happen, just not naturally and most likey won't stay there.

As for the paper.... get a thin enough, big enough paper, and one can fold it more times than that....... (it's the paper that stretches around the bend... eventually you'll either rip the outer edge, OR won't be able to compress the layers inside to do the fold... {=== )
 
The second explanation on that site is all you need. There's a minimum energy level, and you can't go below that, period.
And like the first explanation said, the electrons don't emit energy in a continuous fashion; they emit quanta of it. Since they don't emit gradually, they won't spiral in.

Don't think about it; just trust the math.
 
[quote name='Liquid 2']The second explanation on that site is all you need. There's a minimum energy level, and you can't go below that, period.
And like the first explanation said, the electrons don't emit energy in a continuous fashion; they emit quanta of it. Since they don't emit gradually, they won't spiral in.

Don't think about it; just trust the math.[/quote]

But quanta are photon packets right? In particle duality.. they fall into the wave category... but the energy still must go somewhere right? It's not like photons are emitted without the fuel being restored?
 
[quote name='PhrostByte']But quanta are photon packets right? In particle duality.. they fall into the wave category... but the energy still must go somewhere right? It's not like photons are emitted without the fuel being restored?[/QUOTE]

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying.

Electrons absorb photons and jump up energy levels, and then emit a new photon out and drop back down.
They do not have to emit though; they're more likely to do so at higher energy levels, as they "want" to be in their ground state, but once they're at their ground state, they're not going any further down..
 
[quote name='Liquid 2']I'm not exactly sure what you're saying.

Electrons absorb photons and jump up energy levels, and then emit a new photon out and drop back down.
They do not have to emit though; they're more likely to do so at higher energy levels, as they "want" to be in their ground state, but once they're at their ground state, they're not going any further down..[/quote]

I didn't know that electrons also absorb photons... I guess that makes sense now. But I still don't understand what's keeping them from crashing into the nucleus? I've already heard a million times that they can't get any lower than their lowest quantum state, but I don't understand why?
 
[quote name='PhrostByte']I didn't know that electrons also absorb photons... I guess that makes sense now. But I still don't understand what's keeping them from crashing into the nucleus? I've already heard a million times that they can't get any lower than their lowest quantum state, but I don't understand why?[/QUOTE]

Electrons in the ground state can't emit photons. There's a minimum energy that electrons can't drop below.

I'm not sure why that is, but that's how it is.

It's what the math says.
 
[quote name='Liquid 2']Electrons in the ground state can't emit photons. There's a minimum energy that electrons can't drop below.

I'm not sure why that is, but that's how it is.

It's what the math says.[/quote]

Alright well thanks anyway, I guess I'll just keep reading and hope it eventually clicks.
By the way, I read the essay in your sig, I liked it a lot. Did you write that?
 
[quote name='PhrostByte']Alright well thanks anyway, I guess I'll just keep reading and hope it eventually clicks.
By the way, I read the essay in your sig, I liked it a lot. Did you write that?[/QUOTE]

Nope.

I'd like to meet the guy who did.
 
That's the trouble with quantum mechanics and relativity, there's no way you can figure it out by just reasoning with it. Classically, the electron is constantly accelerating and must be radiating EM-waves thus slowly spiraling into the nucleus. And, by "slowly" I mean something on the order of 10^-11 seconds.
The thing with quantum mechanics is in the name, it deals with discreet quanta of quantities. Energy happens to be a quantized element. The lowest value an electron can have is -13.6eV. It's impossible to go below that. There is no "why," that's just how it is.
 
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