Dubai detains 79 for "indecent behavior" on beaches

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DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) — Westerners were getting too racy on the beaches of this Persian Gulf tourist haven, and a police crackdown on topless sunbathing, nudity and other indecent behavior has resulted in 79 arrests in recent days.
Undercover officers are strolling the sand while others stand guard in new watchtowers to enforce the social mores of this Muslim city-state, which is a booming business center that is attracting growing hordes of foreign tourists.
...
Over the past two weeks, police have detained a total of 79 people whose behavior was "disturbing families enjoying the beach," Zuhair Haroun, a spokesman for Dubai's Criminal Investigation Department, said Monday.
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While pursuing the police crackdown, Dubai has embarked on a public awareness campaign to remind its Western visitors and foreign residents that the city may have flashy hotels and glitzy skyscrapers but it also is a Muslim country with traditionally conservative values.
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"I understand that I have to respect the rules of the country," said John MacLean, a British tourist on holiday with his girlfriend. But, he added, "I am not sure if I can kiss her or touch her in public."
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Most news stories and travel logs describe Dubai with a naivete and giddiness that I find disturbing. Corporations eager to earn profit share are very willing to contribute to this.

I'm hoping articles like this are the tip of the iceberg in terms of exposing Dubai's true social character and attitude towards freedom and foreigners.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Doesn't Dubai and UAE ban alcohol and smoking?

What is the appeal of Dubai if you aren't a Haliburton employee?[/quote]


Ask Tiger Woods. He designing a course there IIRC.

I honestly have no idea what the appeal is though.
 
my buddy just moved from dubai. he worked there for about 6 months doing sales. he went there because they will pay big bucks for english speaking businessmen. his room and board was paid for plus a salary that was way more than he would have made here in a year.

as for booze and smoking, theres plenty of that.

hes the kinda guy i could see get arrested in an "sting" like this. he made good money, but hes glad to be gone.
 
A few years back, I saw a picture of Tiger Woods teeing off from the top of a very tall skyscraper.

Along with the picture, there was an explanation that he is paid $1 million to show up at a golf tournament there.

So, there is the appeal for him.

For somebody low on the food chain like me, I'd rather work on my skin cancer in Hawaii.

EDIT: One of my coworkers is an adult video editor. One of his clients determined they didn't want to relocate there after reviewing local laws. I think sharia law frowns upon teh p0rn.
 
Topless sunbathing, nudity, sure, I can understand getting upset over that...

But not allowed to touch or kiss your own girlfriend? Go fuck yourself, I'll visit some other country. :)

~HotShotX
 
[quote name='HotShotX']Topless sunbathing, nudity, sure, I can understand getting upset over that...

But not allowed to touch or kiss your own girlfriend? Go fuck yourself, I'll visit some other country. :)

~HotShotX[/quote]

Yeah, I'm not coming down on a country that has ordinances against topless beaches, most of America is like that too.

However in the US I sincerely doubt you'd ever have "undercover officers ... strolling the sand while others stand guard in new watchtowers" simply to make sure noone showed a nipple - we're not that crazy in America (yet). The overreaction coupled with the more repressive elements of sharia law that may / may not be enforced depending on who you offend is what concerns me.

I have no idea why liberal fun-loving Euros would vacation in Dubai - expensive and repressive does not sound like a great vacation to me.
 
[quote name='camoor']Yeah, I'm not coming down on a country that has ordinances against topless beaches, most of America is like that too.

However in the US I sincerely doubt you'd ever have "undercover officers ... strolling the sand while others stand guard in new watchtowers" simply to make sure noone showed a nipple - we're not that crazy in America (yet). The overreaction coupled with the more repressive elements of sharia law that may / may not be enforced depending on who you offend is what concerns me.

I have no idea why liberal fun-loving Euros would vacation in Dubai - expensive and repressive does not sound like a great vacation to me.[/quote]

Europeans are just prepping themselves for their native lands about 20 years from now.

I hate to agree with Pat "The Jews Are The Problem!" Buchanan, but the Europeans are going to underbreed themselves out of existence and power while many of those immigrants from the Middle East think birth control is when a woman dies in childbirth.
 
[quote name='camoor']Most news stories and travel logs describe Dubai with a naivete and giddiness that I find disturbing. Corporations eager to earn profit share are very willing to contribute to this.

I'm hoping articles like this are the tip of the iceberg in terms of exposing Dubai's true social character and attitude towards freedom and foreigners.[/QUOTE]

I'm a little confused. Have you been to Dubai? If not, how is it you secretly have the key to its national character, while the people who have do not?

[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']What is the appeal of Dubai if you aren't a Haliburton employee?[/QUOTE]

Luxury shopping.

[quote name='HotShotX']Topless sunbathing, nudity, sure, I can understand getting upset over that...

But not allowed to touch or kiss your own girlfriend? Go fuck yourself, I'll visit some other country. :)

~HotShotX[/QUOTE]

The article says the arrests are for "topless sunbathing, nudity and other indecent behavior" -- obviously "indecent behavior" is nebulous, but there's no specific mention of arrests for kissing your girlfriend.

[quote name='camoor']Yeah, I'm not coming down on a country that has ordinances against topless beaches, most of America is like that too.

However in the US I sincerely doubt you'd ever have "undercover officers ... strolling the sand while others stand guard in new watchtowers" simply to make sure noone showed a nipple - we're not that crazy in America (yet). The overreaction coupled with the more repressive elements of sharia law that may / may not be enforced depending on who you offend is what concerns me.[/QUOTE]

Actually, there are towns in Texas and Florida that keep a very tight reign on kids who arrive for Spring Break, to the point of having the local cops patrol the beaches (even on jetskis!) to make sure no bikini tops come off.

[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Europeans are just prepping themselves for their native lands about 20 years from now.

I hate to agree with Pat "The Jews Are The Problem!" Buchanan, but the Europeans are going to underbreed themselves out of existence and power while many of those immigrants from the Middle East think birth control is when a woman dies in childbirth.[/QUOTE]

Sorta like us with the Mexicans, AM I RITE?

Classy.
 
Once upon a time I was tasked with coming up with game designs for investors in Dubai (long story). So i had to do a ton of research.

If I remember correctly, alcohol laws are odd. Foreigners are allowed to buy alcohol (they couldn't possibly have a resort without it). Alcohol selling licenses are only issued to resident non-muslims. And muslim locals are not allowed to buy it.

Basically they have entirely, more Sharia-like, separate laws for native Muslims. For tourists, the laws are closer to Western countries.
 
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[quote name='trq']I'm a little confused. Have you been to Dubai? If not, how is it you secretly have the key to its national character, while the people who have do not?[/quote]

Are you implying that anyone not wealthy enough to take a vacation in Dubai is not welcome to comment on it, because they don't have anecdotal experience to back up what they have learned about the area through independent reporting, documentaries, etc? Makes sense :roll:

[quote name='trq']The article says the arrests are for "topless sunbathing, nudity and other indecent behavior" -- obviously "indecent behavior" is nebulous, but there's no specific mention of arrests for kissing your girlfriend.
...
Actually, there are towns in Texas and Florida that keep a very tight reign on kids who arrive for Spring Break, to the point of having the local cops patrol the beaches (even on jetskis!) to make sure no bikini tops come off.[/quote]

My point was that the MSM and travel shows portray a glitzy, wealthy Dubai that's an oasis of progressive thinking in the Middle East, but in reality this is far from the truth. Noone has ever portrayed the pockets of Florida and Texas you reference as being remotely worldy or cosmopolitan - in fact these areas are typically the punchline for jokes told by the rest of America.
 
I don't see the big deal on most American beaches. Simply being topless isn't in and of itself lewd IMO. I totally understand if it is a family area though. My cousin went to Jamaica with her husband and kids a few years ago and it seems that topless women were the norm.
 
[quote name='camoor']Are you implying that anyone not wealthy enough to take a vacation in Dubai is not welcome to comment on it, because they don't have anecdotal experience to back up what they have learned about the area through independent reporting, documentaries, etc? Makes sense :roll:[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I'm sure there's no self-filtering for the evidence you want to find going on there.

[quote name='camoor']My point was that the MSM and travel shows portray a glitzy, wealthy Dubai that's an oasis of progressive thinking in the Middle East, but in reality this is far from the truth.[/QUOTE]

I realize it's tempting to fit people and places into nice little categories, but consider: Dubai could be a glitzy, wealthy oasis of progressive thinking in some spots AND a third-world nation with conservative religious laws that westerners are afraid of in others. Crazy, huh?

[quote name='camoor']Noone has ever portrayed the pockets of Florida and Texas you reference as being remotely worldy or cosmopolitan - in fact these areas are typically the punchline for jokes told by the rest of America.[/QUOTE]

Yeah? Because I'm pretty sure that Austin and Miami are, in fact, made out to be pretty cosmopolitan, in spite of being close to the more "backwater" areas. Miami has a huge gay and immigrant population. Florida also has some of the highest numbers of neo-Nazi skinheads of any state. Yet I somehow doubt you spend much time trying to proclaim the "Truth" about Florida any time someone says it's a good place for a vacation.
 
[quote name='trq']Sorta like us with the Mexicans, AM I RITE?

Classy.[/quote]

Somewhat, yes.

As the HISPANIC population becomes a bigger percentage, they will invariably gain a bigger chunk of power.

I believe they are and will integrate themselves with American society just like the previous generations of immigrants have. Even if the first generation of Hispanic immigrant family is illegal, their offspring born in this country has every right to be here. Since their offspring don't have to worry about deportation and their job options aren't limited to cash under the table, they can more readily assimilate.

In Europe, the game is a bit different with wildly different languages, different religions, different educations, very stagnant reproduction rates of native peoples and too much accommodating.
 
Anchor Babies FTW!

Yeah, I have many European friends, and my wife is from Europe, who are always lamenting that the end really is in sight for their cultures. Nobody reproduces, abortion clinics are practically drive-throughs, and the only people that are multiplying are the minorities (Usually Arabic/Muslims in Europe). Ethnic European populations in many countries are declining.

In fact, in Russia, the government has been sponsoring huge concert/events that are basically organized for getting young people to reproduce. Setting up love tents, having orgies and what not. The russian government is terrified that they aren't reproducing fast enough.
 
[quote name='trq']Yeah, I'm sure there's no self-filtering for the evidence you want to find going on there.



I realize it's tempting to fit people and places into nice little categories, but consider: Dubai could be a glitzy, wealthy oasis of progressive thinking in some spots AND a third-world nation with conservative religious laws that westerners are afraid of in others. Crazy, huh?



Yeah? Because I'm pretty sure that Austin and Miami are, in fact, made out to be pretty cosmopolitan, in spite of being close to the more "backwater" areas. Miami has a huge gay and immigrant population. Florida also has some of the highest numbers of neo-Nazi skinheads of any state. Yet I somehow doubt you spend much time trying to proclaim the "Truth" about Florida any time someone says it's a good place for a vacation.[/quote]

That's why I said the "pockets of Florida and Texas you reference" (you see - pocket is a commonly used phrase used to describe a small land area within a larger land area - reading comprehension is crazy, huh?)

The other difference is that Florida and Texas as a whole are some of the top punchlines of America - maybe you've heard of some of the more famous jokes involving hanging chads, Enron, and the current presidency (and since there seems to be the need to be pedantic when talking with you - when I say "Florida and Texas as a whole" I am excluding Miami, Austin, and any other "pockets" of civilization)

In comparison Dubai is routinely portrayed as a glittering paradise, the eastern city of Oz, a progressive oasis in an intolerant desert - and it seems you've bought right in. You should find out more about Dubai, for example how they exploit Filipino, Indian, and other foreign workers, before you run your mouth about how progressive they can be.
 
[quote name='Liquid 2']Different strokes for different folks. It's not like they're eating children or anything.[/quote]

Personally I'm not a big fan of women's lack of rights or theocracy in any country, but on the grand scale of things you're right, we're not talking Darfur.

But you're missing my point. Westerners have a very naive, whitewashed view of Dubai. Believing the MSM news image of Dubai as a luxurious middle-east version of New York is like watching "Legally Blonde" and buying the premise that an emotionally-unstable borderline-retarded beauty salon assistant could make it in the cutthroat world of insider DC.
 
[quote name='camoor']Personally I'm not a big fan of women's lack of rights or theocracy in any country, but on the grand scale of things you're right, we're not talking Darfur.

But you're missing my point. Westerners have a very naive, whitewashed view of Dubai. Believing the MSM news image of Dubai as a luxurious middle-east version of New York is like watching "Legally Blonde" and buying the premise that an emotionally-unstable borderline-retarded beauty salon assistant could make it in the cutthroat world of insider DC.[/QUOTE]

Wait, you mean legally blond wasn't based on a true story?
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Somewhat, yes.

As the HISPANIC population becomes a bigger percentage, they will invariably gain a bigger chunk of power.

I believe they are and will integrate themselves with American society just like the previous generations of immigrants have. Even if the first generation of Hispanic immigrant family is illegal, their offspring born in this country has every right to be here. Since their offspring don't have to worry about deportation and their job options aren't limited to cash under the table, they can more readily assimilate.

In Europe, the game is a bit different with wildly different languages, different religions, different educations, very stagnant reproduction rates of native peoples and too much accommodating.[/QUOTE]

Everything you say that's different about European immigration has been leveled at US immigrants. Minus the religion, it's even been applied to Mexicans specifically. Just sayin'.

[quote name='thrustbucket']Anchor Babies FTW!

Yeah, I have many European friends, and my wife is from Europe, who are always lamenting that the end really is in sight for their cultures. Nobody reproduces, abortion clinics are practically drive-throughs, and the only people that are multiplying are the minorities (Usually Arabic/Muslims in Europe). Ethnic European populations in many countries are declining.[/QUOTE]

This happens on a generational level. We dealt with the same kind of hyperbole about the Italians and Irish out-breeding "real" Americans a hundred years ago. We just have more recent experience being a melting pot. Europe ... not so much. It's typically very homogeneous and has been for a very long time. But it's really much ado about nothing -- over the millennia, Europe has seen far more people coming and going than just the current influx of brown people everyone is worked up about.

[quote name='camoor']That's why I said the "pockets of Florida and Texas you reference" (you see - pocket is a commonly used phrase used to describe a small land area within a larger land area - reading comprehension is crazy, huh?)

The other difference is that Florida and Texas as a whole are some of the top punchlines of America - maybe you've heard of some of the more famous jokes involving hanging chads, Enron, and the current presidency (and since there seems to be the need to be pedantic when talking with you - when I say "Florida and Texas as a whole" I am excluding Miami, Austin, and any other "pockets" of civilization)[/QUOTE]

"Pockets" or not, your statement was "we're not that crazy in America."

[quote name='camoor']In comparison Dubai is routinely portrayed as a glittering paradise, the eastern city of Oz, a progressive oasis in an intolerant desert - and it seems you've bought right in. You should find out more about Dubai, for example how they exploit Filipino, Indian, and other foreign workers, before you run your mouth about how progressive they can be.[/QUOTE]

I'm completely aware of Dubai's issues with non-resident workers. I'm just not willing to slap an easy label on it. ("Everyone thinks it's progressive ... but it ISN'T!") I mean, hey, if the black and white worldview thing works for you, great. Just don't expect everyone else to buy it.

[quote name='camoor']Personally I'm not a big fan of women's lack of rights or theocracy in any country, but on the grand scale of things you're right, we're not talking Darfur.[/QUOTE]

Dubai isn't a theocracy any more than England is.

[quote name='camoor']But you're missing my point. Westerners have a very naive, whitewashed view of Dubai. Believing the MSM news image of Dubai as a luxurious middle-east version of New York is like watching "Legally Blonde" and buying the premise that an emotionally-unstable borderline-retarded beauty salon assistant could make it in the cutthroat world of insider DC.[/QUOTE]

Right. As opposed to the Westerners who have a simplistic negative view, which they got from catching Dubai: Night Secrets on PBS. They know "The Truth."
 
[quote name='trq']
This happens on a generational level. We dealt with the same kind of hyperbole about the Italians and Irish out-breeding "real" Americans a hundred years ago. We just have more recent experience being a melting pot. Europe ... not so much. It's typically very homogeneous and has been for a very long time. But it's really much ado about nothing -- over the millennia, Europe has seen far more people coming and going than just the current influx of brown people everyone is worked up about.[/quote]

I hope i didn't come across as saying people are afraid of mixing bloodlines and skin colors. In my experience, that's not the fear. The fear is loss of culture.

Not that I think it's a big deal, I really don't. It's jut an interesting observation that history seems to always have certain cultures that are out-breeding others for various reasons at any given time.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I hope i didn't come across as saying people are afraid of mixing bloodlines and skin colors. In my experience, that's not the fear. The fear is loss of culture.

Not that I think it's a big deal, I really don't. It's jut an interesting observation that history seems to always have certain cultures that are out-breeding others for various reasons at any given time.[/QUOTE]

No, no -- I didn't meant to imply you said that. Many people DO conflate the issues -- race and culture and so on, a la Brigitte Bardot -- but you weren't doing so. It's interesting to note that the fear of cultural loss in Europe isn't constrained to fear of immigrants -- America and our ubiquitous cultural influence is frequently a target as well. France in particular has very active cultural watchdogs, to the point of resisting American fast food, lest it influence the French culinary tradition.

As for breeding, well, it's no surprise: it's economic. The poorer classes have more kids, wherever they're from. Eventually, as the immigrants assimilate and realize they'd have a higher standard of living with fewer kids, they inevitably do so.

If I may ask a personal question, Thrust (and I won't take any offense at "No, you may not"): where is your wife from?
 
[quote name='trq']

If I may ask a personal question, Thrust (and I won't take any offense at "No, you may not"): where is your wife from?[/QUOTE]

Estonia

Edit: It should be noted that her country doesn't have an immigrant problem, but their population of 1.5m is dwindling due to rampant birth control. But they still vocally worry about that over there. I also have some close friends in Finland that do have an immigrant "problem" along with the poor birth rate.
 
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The issue I have with Mexicans and I know this is not all of em' but with some there's this expectation for you to speak Spanish to them or to have most things in Spanish for them. It's happening too. What other people do we know of here where we have alternate versions of TV channels broadcast in their native language? NO ONE! I'll grant you they probably got the idea from some of us that travel to foreign countries and expect them to speak English for us. The answer to both Mexicans and Americans in regards to this should be a be hearty...fuck you! After all, who goes to France, Italy, Germany, China, Japan, South Korea and other places expecting them to speak English? Granted I've heard there's some debate in South Korea about accepting English as a second language but I'm vehemently opposed to that. You're in another country that doesn't speak your language period.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Estonia

Edit: It should be noted that her country doesn't have an immigrant problem, but their population of 1.5m is dwindling due to rampant birth control. But they still vocally worry about that over there. I also have some close friends in Finland that do have an immigrant "problem" along with the poor birth rate.[/QUOTE]

That's pretty interesting. I know very little about that part of Europe -- just the bit about Estonia having the first e-military, really. Well, that and the gorgeous scenery and women. :)

I would guess the primary immigrant populations in Estonia and Finland are ... Russians?
 
[quote name='trq']That's pretty interesting. I know very little about that part of Europe -- just the bit about Estonia having the first e-military, really. Well, that and the gorgeous scenery and women. :)

I would guess the primary immigrant populations in Estonia and Finland are ... Russians?[/QUOTE]

Russians are less and less welcome in Estonia. Not sure about Finland. Russians have to apply for a visa to visit, and recently it's become more difficult for them to do so. They aren't popular there (even if they comprise about 25% of the population). Russia treats them like they are ungrateful for their occupation.

But you are right, that is certainly the largest minority, however that is more because of people left over from the occupation than people immigrating.
 
[quote name='camoor']Most news stories and travel logs describe Dubai with a naivete and giddiness that I find disturbing. Corporations eager to earn profit share are very willing to contribute to this.

I'm hoping articles like this are the tip of the iceberg in terms of exposing Dubai's true social character and attitude towards freedom and foreigners.[/quote]

It's a nation based on the principles of Islam- instead of tourists trying to get their own way, they should respect their hosts' culture, whatever their personal beliefs may be, bar cannibalism.
 
[quote name='Unickuta']It's a nation based on the principles of Islam- instead of tourists trying to get their own way, they should respect their hosts' culture, whatever their personal beliefs may be, bar cannibalism.[/quote]

Like Liquid2 you completely missed the point.

I don't care what silly little theocratic laws the people of Dubai want to enforce. I just want the word to spread that looks are deceiving, this is not a fun party destination like coastal Greece/Spain/Mexico, and Dubai is a place where you can get into serious trouble for doing things that the civilized world wouldn't bat an eye at.

By spreading the message, I figure it's a win-win. The people of Dubai don't have to see the horrors of a man and woman holding hands or the female body, and westerners get to save their hard-earned tourist dollars for a region of the world that respects their freedom and appreciates their patronage.
 
[quote name='trq']"Pockets" or not, your statement was "we're not that crazy in America."



I'm completely aware of Dubai's issues with non-resident workers. I'm just not willing to slap an easy label on it. ("Everyone thinks it's progressive ... but it ISN'T!") I mean, hey, if the black and white worldview thing works for you, great. Just don't expect everyone else to buy it.



Dubai isn't a theocracy any more than England is.



Right. As opposed to the Westerners who have a simplistic negative view, which they got from catching Dubai: Night Secrets on PBS. They know "The Truth."[/quote]

K. You're not into labels based on analysis of enforced political policies and you think England's govt is a western version of Dubai's.

I'd accuse you of moral relativism, but it would be a compliment because you have crossed over into fantasyland.
 
[quote name='camoor']Like Liquid2 you completely missed the point.

I don't care what silly little theocratic laws the people of Dubai want to enforce. I just want the word to spread that looks are deceiving, this is not a fun party destination like coastal Greece/Spain/Mexico, and Dubai is a place where you can get into serious trouble for doing things that the civilized world wouldn't bat an eye at.

By spreading the message, I figure it's a win-win. The people of Dubai don't have to see the horrors of a man and woman holding hands or the female body, and westerners get to save their hard-earned tourist dollars for a region of the world that respects their freedom and appreciates their patronage.[/QUOTE]

They're uncivilized now?


What do you think would happen to you if you started fucking a girl on the street here in the states? You'd get in trouble, to say the least. Are we savages?
It's just different degrees of the same thing. The culture is different there, and there are different ways one should act in public.
 
[quote name='Liquid 2']They're uncivilized now?


What do you think would happen to you if you started fucking a girl on the street here in the states? You'd get in trouble, to say the least. Are we savages?
It's just different degrees of the same thing. The culture is different there, and there are different ways one should act in public.[/quote]

Depends on where you are in the states :lol:

Seriously though, you are a cultural/moral relativist which is a philosophy that I find interesting, but I've started to believe it's also probably cowardly (it's alot easier to feel great about how open-minded and accepting you are by essentially saying 'oh they're just different, they don't believe in women's rights or treating foreign workers fairly, it's a cultural thing that's gone on for centuries that you could never understand' then own up to the fact that as a society the way certain people are being treated is fundamentally unjust)

And yeah, I don't think anyone here has an issue with outlawing sex in public (although personally I wouldn't want my taxpayer dollars going to morality police manning watchtowers and stomping down the beaches undercover all hours of day and night)

But I'm trying to point out to people like you and others ignorant of the real Dubai that this is not a place with freedoms like America, if you look at the wrong person crosseyed or get rearended by the wrong sultan's teenage son you are going to find yourself in a world of hurt, so for petes sake stop with the mythology of Dubai as some progressive mid-east paradise.

Although it's probably going to take some "grafiti kid gets caned" type story for people to wake up.
 
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[quote name='camoor']K. You're not into labels based on analysis of enforced political policies and you think England's govt is a western version of Dubai's.

I'd accuse you of moral relativism, but it would be a compliment because you have crossed over into fantasyland.[/QUOTE]

*sigh*

You said (or at least implied) that Dubai was a theocracy. For somebody who was quick to define "pockets," you're a bit slow to use governmental categories with any accuracy. Dubai is a constitutional monarchy. They *do* have a state religion, but so do a lot of places, including England. I'd think an expert like you would have known that.

[quote name='camoor']Seriously though, you are a cultural/moral relativist which is a philosophy that I find interesting, but I've started to believe it's also probably cowardly (it's alot easier to feel great about how open-minded and accepting you are by essentially saying 'oh they're just different, they don't believe in women's rights or treating foreign workers fairly, it's a cultural thing that's gone on for centuries that you could never understand' then own up to the fact that as a society the way certain people are being treated is fundamentally unjust)[/QUOTE]

Do you spend this much time trying to tell people the "truth" about Hong Kong? It's a lovely city with great shopping, and very western styles and values ... and it's part of China, which has one of the worst human rights records in the world. What about Mexico? A popular vacation spot with great scenery, but tourists are frequently tossed in jail for all kinds of imagined wrongs. How about America, the greatest nation on Earth ... but perennially lambasted by human rights groups for everything from the death penalty to torture to what weapons we use in wartime. Do you go out of your way to spread the "truth" about all those "backwards" and "uncivilized" spots, too? No? Then you might want to check your own backyard for "relativity" first.

[quote name='camoor']Although it's probably going to take some "grafiti kid gets caned" type story for people to wake up.[/QUOTE]

Funny, because as far as that story goes, I think the kid deserved the caning. It's not like graffiti is legal here either.
 
[quote name='trq']*sigh*

You said (or at least implied) that Dubai was a theocracy. For somebody who was quick to define "pockets," you're a bit slow to use governmental categories with any accuracy. Dubai is a constitutional monarchy. They *do* have a state religion, but so do a lot of places, including England. I'd think an expert like you would have known that.



Do you spend this much time trying to tell people the "truth" about Hong Kong? It's a lovely city with great shopping, and very western styles and values ... and it's part of China, which has one of the worst human rights records in the world. What about Mexico? A popular vacation spot with great scenery, but tourists are frequently tossed in jail for all kinds of imagined wrongs. How about America, the greatest nation on Earth ... but perennially lambasted by human rights groups for everything from the death penalty to torture to what weapons we use in wartime. Do you go out of your way to spread the "truth" about all those "backwards" and "uncivilized" spots, too? No? Then you might want to check your own backyard for "relativity" first.



Funny, because as far as that story goes, I think the kid deserved the caning. It's not like graffiti is legal here either.[/quote]

So you think England codifies their religion into their law system? Could well be since Anglicans don't have any rules (jkjk) :) In England, religion has about as much direct political power as the English royal family.

China is regularly lambasted in the news, I don't go a day without seeing China mentioned for a human rights abuse (and rightly so). If you haven't heard about China, torture, Tibet, et al then you're living under a rock. It's also balanced out with stories marvelling at the fantastic growth of China sure, but we all know the good and the bad.

Mexico too - who doesn't know of the rampant drug running problems, poverty, pollution, etc. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that good hard-working people who come to a strange land to work long hours for low pay must be leaving something pretty bad - but if you still didn't figure it out the news should have clued you in. I hope things get better in Mexico, time will tell.

Etc etc

And you think the kid deserved to be caned? Interesting. You oppose the death penalty but don't mind wild-west style corporal punishment for relatively minor (but annoying) crimes. A little split-personality isn't it... kinda.. like... Dubai
 
[quote name='camoor']So you think England codifies their religion into their law system? Could well be since Anglicans don't have any rules (jkjk) :) In England, religion has about as much direct political power as the English royal family.[/QUOTE]

Not sure how much more straightforward I can be about this. A theocracy is rule by a religious figure, under religious principles. Iran is a theocracy -- the president is second to the Supreme Leader, who's the head of religion in Iran. Tibet is a theocracy -- the Dalai Lama is the head of the whole government. England is not -- there's a state religion, the king is the head of the Church of England and can NEVER be Catholic, and bishops sit in the House of Lords, but it's all largely ceremonial at this point. Dubai is not -- it's run by an emir (king) and while it has a state religion, Sharia is only for Muslims; non-muslims use the civil courts, and it has a civil constitution, distinct from any religious teachings.

Again: Dubai is a constitutional monarchy.

[quote name='camoor']China is regularly lambasted in the news, I don't go a day without seeing China mentioned for a human rights abuse (and rightly so). If you haven't heard about China, torture, Tibet, et al then you're living under a rock. It's also balanced out with stories marvelling at the fantastic growth of China sure, but we all know the good and the bad.

Mexico too - who doesn't know of the rampant drug running problems, poverty, pollution, etc. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that good hard-working people who come to a strange land to work long hours for low pay must be leaving something pretty bad - but if you still didn't figure it out the news should have clued you in. I hope things get better in Mexico, time will tell.[/QUOTE]

I think the problems in the middle east are pretty well documented at this point, so I don't see some of the few positive depictions of the area as especially gulling.

[quote name='camoor']And you think the kid deserved to be caned? Interesting. You oppose the death penalty but don't mind wild-west style corporal punishment for relatively minor (but annoying) crimes. A little split-personality isn't it... kinda.. like... Dubai[/QUOTE]

"Wild West" implies fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants unlawfulness. Thailand does have codified laws, you know. And yes, I think there's a pretty big difference between being caned and being ... well, dead.
 
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No one makes you go to these fucked up countries. If you are too stupid to know they hate woman than your deserve to go to jail.
 
[quote name='bigdaddy']No one makes you go to these fucked up countries. If you are too stupid to know they hate woman than your deserve to go to jail.[/quote]

Funny you say that, the visa for this girl I met ran out and she had to go back, and she was not happy about it.

I think it's rather interesting that TRQ can't get around the constitutional monarchy label that Dubai operates under. TRQ, some third world countries have sham elections but I wouldn't call them democracies (no matter how much propaganda they spew out) I'm talking about the real Dubai, the one that still uses police to carry out muslim law, not the one you see in brochures and glossy MSM fluff pieces.

But you know - we obviously have different values. IMHO it makes alot of sense why someone who would support police action in the form of corporal punishment would not see the problems with the legislation of morality and exploitation occurring in Dubai.
 
[quote name='camoor']Like Liquid2 you completely missed the point.

I don't care what silly little theocratic laws the people of Dubai want to enforce. I just want the word to spread that looks are deceiving, this is not a fun party destination like coastal Greece/Spain/Mexico, and Dubai is a place where you can get into serious trouble for doing things that the civilized world wouldn't bat an eye at.

By spreading the message, I figure it's a win-win. The people of Dubai don't have to see the horrors of a man and woman holding hands or the female body, and westerners get to save their hard-earned tourist dollars for a region of the world that respects their freedom and appreciates their patronage.[/quote]

Sorry then, I agree now...
 
[quote name='camoor']Funny you say that, the visa for this girl I met ran out and she had to go back, and she was not happy about it.[/QUOTE]

I knew a girl from France who wasn't happy to go back after her Visa ran out, too. What's your point?

[quote name='camoor']I think it's rather interesting that TRQ can't get around the constitutional monarchy label that Dubai operates under. TRQ, some third world countries have sham elections but I wouldn't call them democracies (no matter how much propaganda they spew out)[/QUOTE]

"Theocracy" has a specific definition. I know you're the self-described bearer of "The Truth," but I'm gonna go with the CIA, the US State Department, and the UN on this one -- I figure they've probably read, like, way more about it on the Internets than you.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1050.html

[quote name='camoor']I'm talking about the real Dubai, the one that still uses police to carry out muslim law, not the one you see in brochures and glossy MSM fluff pieces.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps your in-depth research missed that Muslim law in Dubai only applies to Muslims? Or that Muslims can "opt out"? Or that the harshest penalty is deportation? Yeah.

[quote name='camoor']But you know - we obviously have different values. IMHO it makes alot of sense why someone who would support police action in the form of corporal punishment would not see the problems with the legislation of morality and exploitation occurring in Dubai.[/QUOTE]

If you say so. But if you can't tell the difference between "doesn't have a problem with" and "doesn't distill an entire country down to," there's not much else I can do about it at this point.

Anyway, this whole thing is a straw man. The arrests in the original article haven't been for anything that we don't arrest people for in the US.
 
You just have no idea how these things operate.

For instance, the opt-out. Did you know that non-Muslims are discriminated against - for example they don't get the same pay, and part of Muslims pay includes the time per day that they spend praying (I guess companies and the state figure they get a better return on prayers to Allah then other dieties) Equal pay for equal work, and I don't count praying as work.

At least in the US, once you leave elementary school you never have to put up with that god stuff if you don't want to.

And if you think a woman going back to Paris is in any way comparable to the girl I know who was being sent back to Dubai or the girl who had to go back to Pakistan, then you're more disconnected from reality then I figured.
 
[quote name='camoor']You just have no idea how these things operate.[/QUOTE]

I smile every time you say something like that.

[quote name='camoor']For instance, the opt-out. Did you know that non-Muslims are discriminated against - for example they don't get the same pay[/QUOTE]

In fact, I did, though you're only (actually?) half right. The discrimination is based on nationality, rather than religion. You'll note that Pakistani workers -- Muslims all -- are one of the most frequently underpaid groups. Part of it is intentional -- a couple of years ago, the salaries of nationals working in the public sector were increased across the board by 25%, while non-nationals only received a 15% raise. This was meant to reflect the sharing of oil revenue to which all citizens are entitled. Incredibly uncivilized and totalitarian, I know. Of course, there's also de facto discrimination, which is a more common problem, but it's technically illegal and banned by Dubai's constitution, which is why unscrupulous employers make prospective employees sign binding contracts; the loophole is that the laws don't protect people from things they voluntarily entered into very well. And workers from India/Pakistan/the Philippines *still* come to work there, knowing this is a problem, because the working conditions are still better than what's available in their native countries.

But hey, it's a good thing there's nowhere else with people of different ethnic groups or gender receiving, oh, say, 76 cents on the dollar. I know you'd be in the relevant threads, condemning systematic racism with all your might.

[quote name='camoor']and part of Muslims pay includes the time per day that they spend praying (I guess companies and the state figure they get a better return on prayers to Allah then other dieties) Equal pay for equal work, and I don't count praying as work.[/QUOTE]

Note to Dubai:

Camoor doesn't want to encourage the things you do. Please take that up in your next general assembly meeting.

Thanks,
TRQ

[quote name='camoor']At least in the US, once you leave elementary school you never have to put up with that god stuff if you don't want to.[/QUOTE]

And I appreciate that. But I also appreciate that not everywhere on Earth needs to be tailored to me. For someone who supposedly has a problem with "legislating morality," you sure can't abide by anyone actually having different morals from you.

[quote name='camoor']And if you think a woman going back to Paris is in any way comparable to the girl I know who was being sent back to Dubai or the girl who had to go back to Pakistan, then you're more disconnected from reality then I figured.[/QUOTE]

If it's so terrible, here's a solution: tell her that instead of a work/student visa, she should apply for an immigrant visa. Your hysterics aside, Dubai ain't the old skool Soviet Union. She -- and anyone else who wants -- is allowed to leave at any time.
 
[quote name='camoor']You just have no idea how these things operate.

For instance, the opt-out. Did you know that non-Muslims are discriminated against - for example they don't get the same pay, and part of Muslims pay includes the time per day that they spend praying (I guess companies and the state figure they get a better return on prayers to Allah then other dieties) Equal pay for equal work, and I don't count praying as work.

At least in the US, once you leave elementary school you never have to put up with that god stuff if you don't want to.

And if you think a woman going back to Paris is in any way comparable to the girl I know who was being sent back to Dubai or the girl who had to go back to Pakistan, then you're more disconnected from reality then I figured.[/quote]


If the girl is a muslim going back to Paris, than she can have it pretty rough. My brother-in-laws girlfriend is Muslim and has gone through hell because she is dating a white non-muslim. Her father has offered to send her on a vacation to visit their family in their home country, which is his way of getting her in a forced arranged marriage. Luckily she is smart enough and has enough balls to say fuck that, but many do not.
 
[quote name='homeland']If the girl is a muslim going back to Paris, than she can have it pretty rough. My brother-in-laws girlfriend is Muslim and has gone through hell because she is dating a white non-muslim. Her father has offered to send her on a vacation to visit their family in their home country, which is his way of getting her in a forced arranged marriage. Luckily she is smart enough and has enough balls to say fuck that, but many do not.[/quote]

Maybe but when it comes to bodily danger or women's rights Paris is much better then Dubai, Islamabad, etc any day. Paris offers recourse for women facing forced marriages, and a whole host of other human rights protections the civilized world provides.

You seem pretty reasonable and I'm sure you already know this. For some reason TRQ is the only one here who is willfully ignorant about Dubai, he's that poor defense lawyer whose case keeps getting worse and worse, but he's resolved to stand by his country to the end. He's wrong because they do discriminate on religion (paying a person for praying on the job while others have to work is not just) - and he may be right about state jobs discriminating on nationality as well, but to me that's hardly a feather in Dubai's cap (I know he's gravitated back to the moral relativist position in defending this so I suppose we're destined not to see eye-to-eye)

In the end it matters little. Anyone who read this thread with a reasonable, critical mind will doubtless research it more before visiting/working there and in the process will come away with an informed opinion of Dubai. I only hope the MSM starts doing their job and starts responsibly reporting about the region as a whole (as opposed to just reporting how much a westernized hotel room costs or what soccer player just bought a mansion there)

If it's so terrible, here's a solution: tell her that instead of a work/student visa, she should apply for an immigrant visa. Your hysterics aside, Dubai ain't the old skool Soviet Union. She -- and anyone else who wants -- is allowed to leave at any time.
Click to expand...

Is that why Dubai employers take the visas of foreign workers, essentially stranding them in Dubai, making them work excessively long hours for little pay? And you think it's so easy for natives to leave, try finding a country willing to let you immigrate. I'm not saying this particular issue isn't partially a global problem, but let's be real instead of spouting off pie-in-the-sky hypotheticals based on a surface understanding of the issue.
 
[quote name='camoor']For some reason TRQ is the only one here who is willfully ignorant about Dubai, he's that poor defense lawyer whose case keeps getting worse and worse, but he's resolved to stand by his country to the end. He's wrong because they do discriminate on religion (paying a person for praying on the job while others have to work is not just) - and he may be right about state jobs discriminating on nationality as well, but to me that's hardly a feather in Dubai's cap (I know he's gravitated back to the moral relativist position in defending this so I suppose we're destined not to see eye-to-eye)[/QUOTE]

You say I'm a "moral relativist," I say you have "different ethical standards for people who aren't you." Tomato, toe-mah-toe. I just know repeating points I've already addressed (salaries are greater for residents because they're entitled to oil revenue, etc) doesn't win you any points for knowing what you're talking about.

[quote name='camoor']I only hope the MSM starts doing their job and starts responsibly reporting about the region as a whole (as opposed to just reporting how much a westernized hotel room costs or what soccer player just bought a mansion there)[/QUOTE]

Right. I forgot you get the version of MSN that's chock full of positive news stories from the Middle East, which is why you so desperately have to balance the ledger.

[quote name='camoor']s that why Dubai employers take the visas of foreign workers, essentially stranding them in Dubai, making them work excessively long hours for little pay?[/QUOTE]

Yes. Every employer in Dubai does that. And it's totally something the government condones. Never met a lazy generalization you didn't like, eh?

[quote name='camoor']And you think it's so easy for natives to leave, try finding a country willing to let you immigrate.[/QUOTE]

Oh, so Dubai = "bad" ... because every *other* country has immigration laws? Right. Now I'm starting to see why this debate has gone nowhere...
 
[quote name='trq']You say I'm a "moral relativist," I say you have "different ethical standards for people who aren't you." Tomato, toe-mah-toe. I just know repeating points I've already addressed (salaries are greater for residents because they're entitled to oil revenue, etc) doesn't win you any points for knowing what you're talking about.



Right. I forgot you get the version of MSN that's chock full of positive news stories from the Middle East, which is why you so desperately have to balance the ledger.



Yes. Every employer in Dubai does that. And it's totally something the government condones. Never met a lazy generalization you didn't like, eh?



Oh, so Dubai = "bad" ... because every *other* country has immigration laws? Right. Now I'm starting to see why this debate has gone nowhere...[/quote]

When your arguements get this weak I get the sense you're arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm done with this thread.
 
[quote name='camoor']When your arguements get this weak I get the sense you're arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm done with this thread.[/QUOTE]

*shrug*

They're the same points you haven't had a problem trying to refute for three pages, but whatever floats your boat.
 
[quote name='sandaz93']I think its good that they are cracking down. Its their country, if thats what they want to do, they can do it. It might teach the rest of the world some modesty,[/quote]

Good point. It's also awesome that they aren't a horribly hypocritical society where men can basically do anything they want in private (and certain things that violate Muslim law such as pick up prostitutes in public, as long as they are "discrete") whereas women can be banned from working by their husbands, denied divorce when without physical evidence of abuse, and even subjected to honor killings (which while technically illegal are rarely punished)

Of course I'm sure someone with your brilliant reasoning skills and just sense of morality probably thinks that death is a fine punishment when a woman marries a guy her family didn't approve or has sex out of wedlock (maybe you'd like to tack a scarlet A on her for extra "teaching modesty" points)
 
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