Education and Employment in the U.S.

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Considering the present state of the U.S., where finding a job is very difficult. I cannot imagine how hard it is for those who chose not to pursue post-secondary education, or even those who just went to community college. In the past, post-secondary education could be considered optional. Experience was thought to be equivalent, or more valuable, than a university degree. In recent years, according to what has been said by family, friends, and friends of friends, post-secondary education seems to have become a prerequisite to finding employment.

If I didn't go into teaching, I think it would have been hard to find work with a mere Bachelor of Arts in Journalism, and without graduate school. My father worked his way up from poverty to the top. Years ago, I imagined it being very difficult for others. Today, considering how finding employment has become quite competitive, I imagine it being quite impossible.

If it isn't too sensitive of a topic, for those of you who chose experience over education, how is your life? Do you have any regrets, or did your life turn out just fine? Do you have any advice for the younger CAG crowd?
 
Sure I'll answer. I didn't have the chance to go to University for a number of reasons and my life pretty much sucks as a result.

So some realistic advice. This may sound obvious but avoid developing a drug habit and if you have a fragile mind at all then you should avoid hard drugs. I fell into this trap right after school and lost a good five years of youth because I simply could not pull my shit together. No excuses, I never should have messed with drugs and it was my own fault.

Stay the hell out of retail and pick up a real trade or real skills that you can use later on down the line. Do whatever it takes to work as hard as you can as much as you can while your body can still take it. Save, save, a thousand times save.

Honestly, unless you want the soundtrack to the rest of your life to be a local classic rock station then go to school. Wage slaving sucks.
 
:lol: I just flat out don't want a career. I'm totally fine with JUST a job. Working 40 hours a week and going home. The concept of taking work home with me.. and.. just being so gung ho about work makes me want to throw up.
 
i just have a ba in history. not the best thing in the world for jobs, i work for an insurance company. im thinking of going back to school next year and getting my teaching credential or getting my masters/credential.
 
Yeah, these times have made me very glad I decide to go to grad school and get a Master's and Ph D. As I stated in the other thread I landed a good tenure-track job for next year and have a 100% stable pay check until then on grant funded research, so I feel very lucky and fortunate. All the hard work and delayed gratification has definitely paid off.

Some of my friends that didn't go to college are really hurting. They were never doing great but they've really struggled the past year first with the high gas and food prices wrecking havok with their budget to some of them being laid off etc. more recently.
 
[quote name='lilboo']:lol: I just flat out don't want a career. I'm totally fine with JUST a job. Working 40 hours a week and going home. The concept of taking work home with me.. and.. just being so gung ho about work makes me want to throw up.[/quote]


Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone, lilboo. :whistle2:( 'Tis why I posted it in the Controversy forum, as I felt it was a sensitive question.

I understand and respect your answer. I have friends who share your opinion.
 
Hey! I'm not offended at ALL!
It's a choice I made. I reconsider it at times and I still might want to go. My problem is I truly do not know what I would want to study. I just can't spend all that money and still end up being the janitor at my local middle school.

I work down at a TV station (local)..and the way some of these people act.. their jobs are their LIVES..and it sickens me to death. I just can not imagine living and breathing work for like 50 years, retire, and then start to "enjoy life".
 
Not exactly what you asked for, but I'll throw in my two cents on this:

I felt I would be perfectly content managing a drug store when I was offered the position after my 21st birthday. I found myself content with the job responsibilities but completely jaded by the lack of support from my superiors and co-workers of the same level of authority. So I went back to school. It's been a little over 5 years and I can say that (IMO) it's the norm to have people who don't care, don't try or are genuinely unable to put forth an effort into their job when it is a field without a degree/trade required. To be honest, I don't blame them. And don't get me wrong; Not everyone who doesn't get the education/training is completely worthless... there's a fair share of hardworking, competent and intelligent people withering away at jobs far below their capability (I'm not trying to put people down).

On the flip side, having a degree doesn't make someone's short comings go away either. There are plenty of people I in college or have a degree that are complete jackasses and have no business in the fortunate situation that they are in. The world quite simply is not fair.

I have my degree in Accounting and it took forever (nearly a year) to find work. I work for a great company and get along very well with my boss but I am making the same amount of money that my friends in retail/restaurant management make (and there is a freeze on raises due to the economy at my company). I started part time in an assistant position and have moved to a full time staff position with no bump in pay. The only promotion I could get is to be a controller and that's about 10 years away for me in the experience department (if I'm lucky). I was brainwashed by teachers, news articles and recruiters that Accountants were in high demand throughout college but the real world has shown me that a BA does not hold its own weight and a MBA/CPA is a must to have any sort of success in the field.

To get more on the point: It is almost as hard to find work with a BA considering you have narrowed down the jobs that you are searching for and more people than ever are going to college and there will be competition unless you are in an area that is booming.

Also I got a BA with all but 3 semesters at community college. I saved thousands of dollars this way (had better teachers at community) and my degree says the same thing as a colleague who spent all four years at my graduating school says :D

To sum it up, I would say that I'd highly recommend considering that you will need education/training after graduation with a lot of BA degrees. I also know people doing quite well with their trade and I would never put someone down for going that route over formal education.
 
[quote name='lilboo']:lol: I just flat out don't want a career. I'm totally fine with JUST a job. Working 40 hours a week and going home. The concept of taking work home with me.. and.. just being so gung ho about work makes me want to throw up.[/quote]

I wouldn't say a 40 hour work week and careers are mutually exclusive of one another.
I put my 40 hours in(average), don't take work home, and have a 'career'.
Really just depends what you do.
Looking forward to 2 weeks from now - get to 'work from home' for 3 1/2 weeks because they are doing renovations in office.

On topic, I have a master's degree in Comp Sci ( though i don't code for a living).
Trick is to get your place of employment to pay for all or most of your degree. Mine paid 75%, so spaced over 3 years, the master's degree was like $1250/yr.
 
[quote name='lilboo'] I just can not imagine living and breathing work for like 50 years, retire, and then start to "enjoy life".[/QUOTE]



[quote name='Pookymeister']I wouldn't say a 40 hour work week and careers are mutually exclusive of one another.
I put my 40 hours in(average), don't take work home, and have a 'career'.
Really just depends what you do.
Looking forward to 2 weeks from now - get to 'work from home' for 3 1/2 weeks because they are doing renovations in office.
[/QUOTE]

That's really it. You can balance a career and life.

And a lot of us who do work longer hours and put a lot of focus on our careers enjoy what we do and/or think it's important. So we're not waiting to retire to begin to enjoy life.

Some do simply work a ton to try to make a ton of money, and a lot of those people are pretty miserable to be around quite frankly since they tend to not be very happy since they're just slaving away at something they often don't enjoy (or even hate) to try to get rich.
 
I finished high school when I was 16. I sort of regret not attending any form of college when I could have had the head start (At the time, I wanted to work full time instead) Now, I'd rather not go to college at all given the economy. I have money set aside for school, I guess, from my Grandma, so I could always use that. I guess it just isn't a huge priority for me to get a degree I may not use... which could turn out exactly like that since I'm not focused enough on what I want my career choice to be.

I'm doing fine now. I have a job I absolutely love that allows me to live debt free and allows me to buy the things I want. It's borderline whether or not my GF and I could afford a house, but I think we could. I'm just waiting things out since it seems like the Phoenix home market needs to adjust downwards a little more. My only problem is I work for a mortgage company! Oops!

Ah, well, with the experience I have here, I could easily get a job at Go-Daddy. They're in a wormhole apparently because they're still making a growing profit. They're having an insane Christmas party this year-- at Chase Field in Phoenix where two "major" bands will be playing, a "legendary" comedian will perform, and a couple of celebs like Danica Patrick and Dale Earnhardt Jr. will be walking around schmoozing. Meanwhile, at Countrywide, we'll be lucky if we get our TGIF Friday gift cards we normally get, or if we avoid getting asked to take a cut in pay. :cold:
 
I'm in school right now and I really like it. I am learning a lot of new things, so I'm happy. I am also lucky enough to have a scholarship that pays the majority of tuition, so I won't be leaving with a mountain of debt. It's also like a nice buffer between high school and beginning a career. I'm going to be graduating in about a year, and now I'm debating whether I should go straight into the career thing or go for a master's degree.
 
I started out going to community college when that didn't work I joined the Navy and slowly started taking classes online.. Now that I'm out, I have experience in a field I would never want to be in (police) and am still slowly making my way to a bachelors(business management with a minor in human resources) 12 more classes to go!. Point being even if I had my degree I still don't know what Id be qualified or want to do. Deep down i'm with Lilboo.. I just want a 40 hour job that pays enough that my wife and I can live comfortably with my wife.
 
I graduated from college with BS degrees in both Chemistry and Biology. With those 2 degrees, my job prospects would have consisted of panhandling vs. doing odd jobs vs. technician level work (if I had my druthers, I'd probably go with panhandling ;))... most BS or BA degree in and of themselves don't give you much (save for CS or engineering), but they can be used as nice stepping stones for further education.
 
I went right out of highschool into the workforce, bouncing around from a few start ups and making really good money without any formal education. All the while I was trading on the side and as I continued making sizeable gains from trading, I began to focus more and more on simply trading as a career. Now that is all I do and I love it. I trade my own capital and manage money for 32 other people, from which I keep a % of the profits I earn for them. Sure it can be stressful at times but everyday brings new opportunities and no matter the market conditions there is always money to be made. You also can't beat the hours....which are basically trading whenever I feel like it.

I did eventually get an Associates Degree a few years ago just for the hell of it but to be perfectly honest the whole experience bored the hell out of me so I really doubt I will bother going any further as far as secondary education goes.

I do recognize how a college education is a requirement for many industries but it just wasn't a good path for me and I have done quite well on my own turning what once a side hobby into a career with a sizeable client base.
 
I know I'm supposed to post something bitter here. Well, here goes.

My career has definitely not taken off, but my job and company I work for are stable.

The only thing my first Bachelor's let me do was take fewer classes to earn my second Bachelor's.

And, of course, I have two kids and a wife.

Now, I could go back to school. I could probably even get my employer to pay for everything.

But... I have to spend time earning the degree. One 3 hour graduate level class would take 10 hours of work per week to excel at and 6 years to complete a 36 hour requirement for a Master's at the rate of 1 class per semester.

Back when I was buying and selling games in bulk, I spent 20 hours on it per week. My wife was dealing with our infant son, all of my daughter's artwork had frowny faces on it and my wife and I were talking to some guy named Gary to avoid a divorce every weekend or so.

Everything is much more stable now, but getting more education is going to cause some conflict. Either I'll have to ignore my family or my studies. If I ignore my studies, I have to pay for the education which will obviously take away money that keeps the family stable. If I ignore my family, it becomes unstable.

Even if I could magically wake to a Master's degree and a stable family, what then?

A new degree and no experience doesn't open any new doors for me. However, I could see how more education would cause me to dislike my job even more.

Even if I could double my income with some measure of education, the additional duties and the process of getting that improvement could cause a divorce. A divorce would remove 40% of my income for the next 12 years and reduce my contact with my kids to once a week.

In the grand scheme of things, I'll meander my way into a good career or a profitable business I enjoy and I'll retire before most successful people. That will be the bonus to a family that actually enjoys my presence.
 
Yeah, going back to school is very tough when you have a family, and probably not worth it at that point of your life. As long as your job is stable it's best to probably plug away and try to just get new training and experience when their are opportunities through the job to do so in hopes that those will lead to promotions or make you competitive for better jobs in other countries.

For people starting out it's just important to find a significant other who is supportive of the lifestyle you want and/or who leads the same lifestyle. I couldn't do a house wive and kids who needed me around all the time as I work pretty long hours. Fortunately my girlfriend of 4 years is in the same field and works even more than I do so it's never been an issue. Though she does want kids down the road, which I'm still very hesitant about.

But at any rate it's a very personal decision on whether to get a BA, whether to go to grad school etc. As well as deciding on what kind of career you want and how much you want to invest yourself in it. The most important thing is just making sure you have stable income that can support yourself and you're family (if you have one), their are a variety of ways to do that, be it going to school or just learning a trade or starting your own business etc. Deciding what kind of lifestyle you want from a finanacial/luxury standpoint is secondary, and a decesion based on whether putting in the extra effort to afford luxuries is worth the time costs.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114'] Though she does want kids down the road, which I'm still very hesitant about.[/quote]

Does she know you don't want kids?

Have you had enough surgery to prevent kids?
 
If I only cared about a career and such, I wouldn't have chosen higher education. I chose to go to college because I wanted to learn more and have the college experience, and financially I was in a position where that was a viable option.

If I weren't interested in the college experience, I would've gotten a job in a trade and worked my way up, or perhaps gotten into one of those expenses-paid trade schools. Rolex sponsors a watch repair program at a local community college here, all-expenses paid and then guaranteed apprenticeship at $25/hr followed by journeyman at $35/hr. There are similar programs in power systems, auto repair, HVAC, masonry, etc.

I'm glad I'm in college, though. I enjoy learning, I enjoy understanding the world around me, and I enjoy college life (what little of it a engr student has time to experience, at least). It's not about career prospects for me.
 
[quote name='homeland']I just want a 40 hour job that pays enough that my wife and I can live comfortably with my wife.[/quote]

You polygamist bastard. I hope you're not the only one working to support your wives...
 
I've been working full time since I was 15, starting at a local family owned arcade.

In the past 18 years I've worked numerous jobs, working my way into good paying IT and technical writing jobs. I got bored so I took a 70% pay reduction trying to get into the game industry. Started out as tester, worked my way up, through three different company's to designer. My last job I was making 62k a year as a game designer, which isn't bad for this area.

Now I'm at a crossroads, I don't know that I want to stay in the game industry, it's too competitive and too many are out of work right now.

I started taking classes at college about ten years ago and it felt like a huge waste of money and time. Bored me to tears too. I have always made as much or more than everyone I've worked with that had degrees, so it was not a good example of school for me.

I still have the opinion that higher education is mostly, to put it nicely, the last real undiscovered financial scam portrayed on the masses. Now, I fully acknowledge that it's very important in some areas like law or medicine, to require lots of school, but for the most part, for most fields, I think it's a waste and a sham.

On top of all that, there is no subject that interests me enough to spend 4+ years learning about. I get bored easily; and as such, it is in my nature to need constant change and/or stimuli that a "stable career" usually can't offer anyway.

Who, knows, though. Maybe if I'm unemployed long enough and things get bad enough I might have to bite the bullet and go get some lame-ass degree showing I know things I already know, especially if the Comanche nation's offer of full tuition is still good.
 
I have been on my own for 6 years now, and I think the most I ever made was like 17,000 a year. So for me I know how to live a happy and fun life on a sub-20,000 a year income. For a successful "career" right now would be anything about 25,000.

However I do love school, and my low income/good grades allow me to go for free (plus a little extra jingle jangle in my pocket). So I will continue to work for very little and slowly chip away at getting my degree. I think I'll have my PhD around 2022 or so.
 
Hmmm, kind of a mixed bag for me. I finished college... but after delaying it for so long that the knowledge gained from it is eclipsed by what I've gained in experience running my own company. Education is important but only for so long as it is tempered by pragmatism.

My life experience has been unusual to say the least. I started a real estate company during college to manage the apartment building I bought w/ help from the parents and started slowly building a small portfolio of real estate. As I got more financially well-off, my grades suffered as a consequence. But it didn't matter that much as, again, I was making money. But I've always been mindful to prepare for the worst and be delighted when I'm wrong so I expanded my income stream. Real estate remains my primary means of income but I've since included a variety of other assets+ so that my lifestyle remains comfortable even in these terrible economic times. Even still, I come from a long line of businesspeople and doctors, who obviously are the results of higher education, so it then became a point of ego to finish college despite my being more well off than most of my more higher-educated peers. And finally having done so, I've come to the conclusion that formal education is only as necessary as to get a person to the next level. But if you've reached that level already using an unconventional path, then education pragmatically loses its value.

In my case, education was more of an ego-driven goal rather than a pragmatic one to help me get a job. I don't need a job since I hired myself! I also realized that the only truly secure jobs out there are the ones where the employee is also the boss is also the owner. Because then it's in the owner's interest to make sure the boss does his job so the company generates him profits and its in the boss's interest to make sure the employee does his job so the boss's company stays above the water and it's the employee's interest to do his job so the company pays him for his time. When one is not the other, the motivation drops and none of these persons work as hard. A boss & employee can quit their jobs in hopes of finding other means of fiscal enrichment but the owner has too much at stake to quit. This has what has thankfully insulated me from the many troubles plaguing people now - unemployment, financial instability, & lack of mobility.

And college really isn't the end of education but rather the beginning of it. I had to learn a lot getting a fledgling one-man company off the ground to turning it into a small close-knit networked group of people I trust w/ both my company and my money. Most of the business classes I took were simply to reiterate or reinforce what I already learned first-hand building my company.

My advice? Be your own boss. You win or lose according to your own abilities. You have no one to blame but you when you fail but you also have no one to praise but you when you succeed.

+for the non-econ-minded, things that generate money, not just something you use to get a loan at a bank. If/when something doesn't generate money, then it is a liability. The apartment I bought is an asset because I rented out the extra rooms to roommates and thus offset the mortgage & other associated fees, plus I was building equity. In contrast, many peoples' homes (as they're unfortunately finding out now) are not assets (despite banks' willingness to treat them as such pre-mortgage crisis) and are liabilities (which the mortgage companies/banks are finding out now) since they do not actively generate any income for the owners since equity is too passive to me to be considered a money generator.

*WHAT A BLOATED WINDBAG I AM FOR SUCH A LONG RESPONSE*
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Does she know you don't want kids?

Have you had enough surgery to prevent kids?[/QUOTE]

Yes to the first. No to the second as like I said I'm hesitant, but I'm still only 30 and could possibly change my tune in 5-6 years when I'm settled into my career etc.

We've decided to not really worry about the kids issue yet as she's not ready either and the first big decision will be whether she decides to move back to Taiwan (where she's from) and whether I'm willing to go with her.

So we haven't really had super serious discussion about our long term future despite dating for 4 years. Neither one of us really cares one way or the other about marriage, an were both just getting started in our careers etc. So either way I don't feel like I'm wasting time buy not discussing it as I'm fine just enjoying the relationship for the time being.
 
Hey Dmaul, you should move to Taiwan with your girlfriend so that you can write the screenplay to your semiautobiography... name it Made in Taiwan, a touching romance set in the backdrop of the failing US economy.
 
I joined the Air Force right after high school and they trained me as a surgical technologist. I did that for ten years.

Instead of working at one hospital, I became a traveler. It meant more money but little advancement. It also meant that I had to be ready to pack all my crap up every three months.

On the other hand, it meant that I got paid to work at Duke University, Indiana University, and Wright State University. It also meant I got to spend 3+ years north of New York City. It meant I got an all expenses paid apartment that had a view of Long Island Sound and the Manhattan skyline. I loved the benefits but the job wore me down after ten years.

I gave it up to start my own recruiting business. Business has been slow but I work from home and my time is my own. I ended up having to take a part-time job at Circuit City to pay bills but I'm confident that my business will lead me to financial independence. I guess I'm pretty happy considering how many people are out of work.
 
My family is mostly blue collar, save for an aunt and cousin. I've seen the way my parents and other family have struggled, i decided a few years back that i didn't want that. Granted a college degree isn't a one way ticket to fortune, but college grads do usually make more, depending on the field. People who complain that they don't are usually people who got degrees in fields that practically guarantee you'll be poor, like philosophy. I'll graduate with my associates in CIS next spring and continue on from there for the B.S. at a four year school. I know quite a few people who got jobs right after graduating from here, even with just the A.A.S. One works for Deloitte financial services.
 
The smart thing to do now is to go to college and hold a steady job while earning your degree. Perspective employers are going to be looking for 2 things when hiring, experience, and education. There's plenty of people out there who go through school, get their bachelors, masters, etc. then get into the work force without any real life experience. At the same time, you can be the best in the world at what you do, but if you don't have that degree, you're application is going to go straight into the trash.
 
You know what I absolutely loathe?

When positions require a degree, when the job you are applying for really requires nothing but related experience.
I had this one friend from High School, and she was from Puerto Rico. She spoke english and spanish VERY well and fluently. She applied to this job (after HS) as a translator (spanish/english) and she didn't get it because she didn't have a degree.

This made no sense.

Even still, when you see jobs posted like.. a secretary/receptionist position, they require a degree :rofl: That makes NO sense.
 
Higher education is great!

As long as you can afford it, it allows you to delay moving into the real world, while allowing you to pursue interests at a time during which you often don't have a great amount of other responsibilities or worries.

I personally really enjoy the process of discovery and it has been absolutely fascinating to learn a range of basic sciences to applied physiology.

Plus, as people have mentioned, certain position require certain degrees. Try applying for a physician's, lawyer's, or tenured researcher's job with an AA degree... :D

There are some downsides: Student loans are a huge scam... I'd recommend getting scholarships or attending public universities (if your state has a good system). E.g., the University of California system is superb and I've been associated with it in one way or another for about the last 10 years... With scholarships, my undergraduate was free... ironically much cheaper than my high school education... ;)

But yeah, I'd highly recommend the college experience for everyone... sure at times you can get lucky and cash out in real estate or finance with lesser degrees, but as we are learning those markets are cyclical and now people in those industries are crying bitter tears of unfathomable despair... :cry:
 
There really is no excuse not to at least take classes at the community college level. The funny thing is that alot of classes at that level are easier than high school. If you can graduate from high school, you should be able to get an Associate's in something worthwhile.

And for once, I agree with BigT. Go to a comm college or a state university so you don't get shackled with that fat student loan. Some employers care alot about which school you went to but some are just looking for a degree and a decent work history.

As a job recruiter, I'd much rather have a candidate that worked their way through a state school than a rich kid that skated through an Ivy any day and more employers are starting to think that way also.
 
I started at a community college and would not recommend it... the classes at my CC were quite rigorous and I think I learned just as much (if not more) than my university counterparts, but I missed out on a lot of experiences.

I did it so that I could establish residency before applying to UW, to save money, but I sorely regret it. The university experience is much, much more fun and there are quite a few doors that will have shut by the time you transfer (studying abroad is quite inconvenient in your final years if you're in a rigorous major, there are many freshman-only programs, you'll be able to climb the extracurricular ranks higher if you have 4 years to do it rather than 2, etc, etc).

If anyone in high school is reading this: go to your U as a freshman and eat the cost, if you can.
 
Koggit, I couldn't disagree more. At this point, people shouldn't really worry about studying abroad or taking on a big student loan. It should be all about getting a degree. The experience can be great but it won't get you a decent job when you get out. Spending a semester in Italy will be great but it won't give you a leg up on the competition when it comes to the job hunt.

These days, you should be more about the skills and less about the experience. It sounds crappy but there aren't many jobs for people out there. If you spend a semester abroad, it will be very difficult to interview for that internship that will be crucial to finding a job.

Ten years ago, I'd say go and have fun at a university but times are different. Jobs are evaporating like water in the desert and you need to really really think about what you're in school for.
 
I'm not even going to get into the "experience." I've done it before on here and it seems that nobody agrees, needless to say, i'm in school to get an education, not for the "experience".

As for work experience, i actually work at my school in the IT department, it's only a computer lab assistant position, but i'm close with the rest of the department and have worked with them when they need the extra help. I'll have good references to use when looking for work.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Koggit, I couldn't disagree more. At this point, people shouldn't really worry about studying abroad or taking on a big student loan. It should be all about getting a degree. The experience can be great but it won't get you a decent job when you get out. Spending a semester in Italy will be great but it won't give you a leg up on the competition when it comes to the job hunt.

These days, you should be more about the skills and less about the experience. It sounds crappy but there aren't many jobs for people out there. If you spend a semester abroad, it will be very difficult to interview for that internship that will be crucial to finding a job.

Ten years ago, I'd say go and have fun at a university but times are different. Jobs are evaporating like water in the desert and you need to really really think about what you're in school for.[/QUOTE]

If all you care about is your job, don't go to a 4-year at all. Go to trade school. Financially it's a better decision.

Look at the overwhelming amount of people in bullshit majors like history, english, communications, etc... it's pretty obvious not many people choose to get a bachelor's as a means of entering the work force.

I have 50+ years to worry about my job, this is the prime of my life and I'm going to enjoy it.
 
I think the experience is definitely part of it. Getting a good education is the key, but there's a lot to be said for the experience and enjoying it while getting an education.

I love the college setting, obviously since I just turned 30 will finish up my Ph D this spring/summer and start an Assistant Professor position next fall!
 
This isn't just about caring for your job, it's about just getting a job. You're acting like you'll walk out of college and just be handed a job. You can choose to either use college to party or to train yourself for the work force. In this job market, you better come out swinging or you'll be sitting at mom and dads waiting for the phone to ring.

As for bullshit majors, I'm 100% against it and I don't like candidates that have them. You're basically telling employers that you took a great opportunity and blew it studying Scandanavian Mythology or Sports Management.

Employers these days aren't looking for that guy that will do the bare minimum and blow out the door because they don't want to be shackled down to a job.

That being said, there are 24 hours in the day. You can work 10+ hours and still have 6 left to do whatever you feel like doing. And that's if you need a full 8 hours of sleep to function. Most people get 5 to 7 hours so that just leaves you more time to pursue your hobbies and dreams.
 
[quote name='depascal22']This isn't just about caring for your job, it's about just getting a job. You're acting like you'll walk out of college and just be handed a job. You can choose to either use college to party or to train yourself for the work force. In this job market, you better come out swinging or you'll be sitting at mom and dads waiting for the phone to ring.
[/QUOTE]

As you said later, it's not an either or situation. I partied a ton as an undergrad as WVU is at or near the top of the party rankings most years. But I still graduated magna cum laude and got into the top graduate program in my field.

Studying comes first, but there's plenty of time for partying, hanging out, enjoy college sports etc. etc.

And also, by the "experience" I also just mean the experience of learning about a wide array of topics, learning from associated with professors and fellow students etc. All that's very valuable on top of just learning skills to get a job. Helps make you a more intellectual and well rounded person.
 
But bullshit majors are the fun ones! I remember on our campus there was a physical/natural sciences and engineering section on one side and a humanities/social sciences section on the other side... guess who had more fun...

I mean, early in a quarter, I'd have some free time, but 2-3 weeks before finals it was lockdown cramming time! I guess carrying >20 units didn't help...

...and to think, now I look back on those times and reflect on how much free time and freedom I had... so enjoy it while you can guys, eventually you're prone to become an overworked, overstressed, and jaded cynic like me!
 
[quote name='depascal22']This isn't just about caring for your job, it's about just getting a job. You're acting like you'll walk out of college and just be handed a job. You can choose to either use college to party or to train yourself for the work force. In this job market, you better come out swinging or you'll be sitting at mom and dads waiting for the phone to ring.

As for bullshit majors, I'm 100% against it and I don't like candidates that have them. You're basically telling employers that you took a great opportunity and blew it studying Scandanavian Mythology or Sports Management.

Employers these days aren't looking for that guy that will do the bare minimum and blow out the door because they don't want to be shackled down to a job.

That being said, there are 24 hours in the day. You can work 10+ hours and still have 6 left to do whatever you feel like doing. And that's if you need a full 8 hours of sleep to function. Most people get 5 to 7 hours so that just leaves you more time to pursue your hobbies and dreams.[/QUOTE]

I guarantee you I will have a job waiting for me by the time I get my diploma, and I am enjoying the college experience. That doesn't mean partying -- it means being involved. There is less to be involved with at a CC, where you primarily go to class and go home. I wish I had been involved with my university since I was a freshman.

I don't know why you're arguing, I don't even really understand what you disagree with. Why, again, are you opposed to people going to a university for 4 years? You save a few thousand by going to a CC but lose a large portion of a priceless experience.
 
I understand that being well-rounded sounds great but hiring managers don't care about it. I place engineers with medical device companies and they only care if you can do the job. They don't really care if you studied Shakespeare or played college football.

Don't get me wrong. Try everything out and experiment during your early years but you need to zero in once you find a field you want to be in. Do everything you can to get into graduate school if that's required for your field.

If you can get great grades and party, great. You will probably have no problem finding a job later on. It's the people that get swept up in the "experience" and let grades suffer that end up hurting later on.

That's why I recommended community college. There's no experience and you can just go to class without all the craziness. You really have to be honest about yourself and your goals when you think about what kind of school you're going to do. I went the military route because I knew that I was a prime candidate to flunk out of school if I had gone to the University of Illinois or Southern Illinois like most of my classmates. Most of the people I hung out with didn't make it two years and ended up back home.

EDIT -- Koggit, how can you gaurantee you'll get a job when you get out? I'm just adding my two cents because 1. I'm ten years out of high school and went the experience route and 2. I work as a job recruiter. I work with many a big ego every day. These are the guys that never believed they would be laid off. These are the guys that can't imagine that they still don't have a job a year after graduating from college. Pride can be a blessing and a curse.

I don't ever wish unemployment on you, koggit, but you seem to be a guy that has no idea what the job market is really like. I disagree with people going to a four year school when they could've been better served working full time and going to community college for two years. Employers are looking for hustlers these days and not guys that coasted through four years and now come out demanding a job.

My contact at Smith & Nephew told me that she would much rather have someone that's gone to trade school, worked through college, and is now looking to advance over the unexperienced 22 year old with a diploma. This is a direct quote. "22 year olds come in five minutes late expecting a job while 30 year olds come in fifteen minutes early and prove they deserve it." Of course, this doesn't apply to everyone but your statement that you gaurantee that you'll have a job waiting for you when you graduate puts you in the former. You might not show up late but you're going up against people that went the long way and, for better or worse, it puts you at a disadvantage.
 
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Yeah, grades have to come first. But life's pretty boring if you can't balance school/work with having a life. But of course it doesn't come easy to some and they need to study nearly every spare moment to get through and get good grades. I'm fortunate in that school has always came easy to me from elementary school up through my doctorate work.

Also, while you'd know better than I being a job recruiter, I'd imagine that a community college degree isn't worth as much as a degree from a good 4 year university. And I'm talking for people straight out of school with little to know work experience...I'd imagine the person with a 3.8 from a good university would be more competitive than the person with a 3.8 from a community college.
 
I should clarify. Get your BA but it looks very good when you've been working full time and going to community college before you transfer to a university.

EDIT -- It just shows that you have the mind set to work hard and finish what you started. My two brothers are both in college in Southern Illinois and they barely go to school. My middle brother only has one class that starts before 10am and that's on Friday so he can party/go to the casinos from noon on Friday to Monday morning. He waits tables but he's not what employers consider an A candidate because he hasn't shown he can hustle.

EDIT #2 -- dmaul, you'd be surprised what employers look for. I've had PhDs from Northwestern shot down while I got a University of Phoenix MBA in for the same position. The PhD walked in basically demanded double the stated salary and acted like an ass while my MBA practically begged for a chance to prove himself.

I just placed a guy with a Bachelor's in Electronic Engineering even though Bausch & Lomb wanted a Master's. Why did they take a chance? He worked in the factory for their competitors while he was going to school. He not only knew how to design medical devices but he knew everything about how they were packaged, sterilized, and shipped. Experience trumped education.
 
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I'm not talking about being well-rounded for your career, I'm talking about enjoying life.

Re: me, I'm on track to graduate magna cum laude (top 3%) from a competitive department (electrical engineering) from a competitive school (UW seattle) with decent softs (double degree with physics, concentration in electricity & magnetism, co-op next summer, 3yrs undergrad research)... I know a couple engineers in the area who had accomplished far less and had no trouble at all recently landing 75k+ gigs at Adobe, Microsoft, Real, Amazon, Boeing, etc, straight out of my school.

I'm only going to work for a couple years anyway, then I'm going to law school. A good career isn't a big deal for me anytime soon. Getting a job as an attorney is going to be a hell of a lot harder than getting a job as an engineer...
 
How recently? Are we talking spring and summer time? If so, then jobs were still flowing freely like Cristal at a P Diddy party. Nowadays? Hiring freeze. I've been told to not call until January 1 at the earliest. That was in October.... It doesn't matter what grades you have if there's a hiring freeze. No one's getting in.

I'm not trying to dog you but you're acting like you're bullet-proof. I commend you for your goals but I hope you have a plan B. There's nothing I'd like more than you getting a great job after you graduate but acting like it's a fore-gone conclusion is a little hasty. Like I said, there are many people that have great degrees from great schools and they are sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring.

My dad told me about a MIT grad that was walking up and down Madison Ave. in NYC with a sign that read, "MIT grad will work for food." He ended up finding a job but it just illustrates how bad this job market is.

Again, you can enjoy life and work hard at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive. You can work 10 hours a day and still have plenty of time to kick back and go watch a game, go to the beach, or climb a mountain.
 
Seattle's economy is actually pretty strong. Much stronger than most of the country. We're still looking at projected 2008 growth around 3% and 2009 growth of a whopping 5% (national projection is -0.1%). Figures are from a recent SeattlePI article that I'm too lazy to track down at the moment (shouldn't be hard to find if you're interested, it was like 3 days ago).

But I still don't understand what you're arguing about. You seem to be saying "work hard" over and over and I've never said anything to the contrary. I just said enter your U as a freshman and enjoy your school. Get involved. Take advantage of every opportunity you have. Join the film club. Find a professor to mentor you. Get involved in undergrad research. Find a co-op. Study abroad. Get fluent in another language. Take advantage of all of the great resources a good university has available, don't limit yourself (like I did, regrettably) in the first two years by going to a CC where you go to class then go home. Go to a U as a freshman and live it up. Work hard? Yes, but at a U, not a CC.
 
I disagree that there are many employers that throw your resume in the trash without seeing a higher education.

There are some, that's true. But it really depends on the employer and the person looking at the degree. Many see experience just as or more important than a degree, otherwise I'd not have had so many good jobs.

Oh and I just found out today that a friend with a Masters degree just got a job making $13 an hour. Yay for school.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I disagree that there are many employers that throw your resume in the trash without seeing a higher education.

There are some, that's true. But it really depends on the employer and the person looking at the degree. Many see experience just as or more important than a degree, otherwise I'd not have had so many good jobs.

Oh and I just found out today that a friend with a Masters degree just got a job making $13 an hour. Yay for school.[/quote]

Hey, I have an MD and my salary comes out to about $12-$13 per hour! Gotta love residency... :D

The whole experience versus education thing is highly dependent on what sector/type of job you are applying to: for example, in the medical field, experience > education for nursing and tech positions, but for physicians you really need both...
 
[quote name='depascal22']
EDIT #2 -- dmaul, you'd be surprised what employers look for. I've had PhDs from Northwestern shot down while I got a University of Phoenix MBA in for the same position. The PhD walked in basically demanded double the stated salary and acted like an ass while my MBA practically begged for a chance to prove himself.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, sounds like that guy was pretty much a douche. Also, in most fields a Ph D is pretty pointless from a career standpoint unless you want to stay in academia. I know people that got them and went to research firms or research divisions at government agencies, and yes they start at a higher pay grade. But I also know people with Master's who got jobs there that paid pretty well and worked their way up to the same pay grade (or higher) as the Ph D people in the 3-4 (or more) years it would have taken them to get their Ph D while living off a grad student research assistant stipend. So for career purposes the Ph D is often not worth it financially unless you want to stay in academia where it is required.

[quote name='thrustbucket']I disagree that there are many employers that throw your resume in the trash without seeing a higher education.

There are some, that's true. But it really depends on the employer and the person looking at the degree.
[/QUOTE]


Yeah it will vary a great deal by the industry, the company and who is reviewing the applications. For the research I've managed while doing my Ph D, when I've hired people as research assistants I pay a great deal of attention to where they did their undergrad (if I'm hiring a master's student), what their major was and what their GPA was. For undergrads we've hired I pay a lot of attention to GPA in deciding who to bring in for interviews. Resume's blend together, going to a good school and making a good GPA shows they have some intelligence and are committed and work hard.

But of course everyone had a degree or was working on a degree in these applicant pools since it was university reserearch position and only advertised in that community. But I'm a very strong believer in college and graduate education, so anytime I was hiring for any time of intellectual position applicatons without college degrees would go straight in the trash.

But others don't care as much and value experience more. But the real problem today is that many fields are competitive as hell and most people are going to have good experience AND good degrees so you really need both to be a competitive candidate in a lot of areas.
 
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