Education and Employment in the U.S.

Koggit, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. Not everyone has the luck to be in a city that has a booming economy. Not everyone will get into an ultra competitive program at an ultra competitive school. It was my impression that this was a discussion about both sides of the coin.

I have dozens of resumes I look at every day and the ones where someone went to community college while working full time at any job stand out to me because I know the person works hard and is willing to sacrifice a little party time to further themself. Maybe they're a little older because they didn't go right into school but that doesn't really hurt a good candidate. Those people tend to have better luck in interviews because they exude confidence. They also tend to have more realistic expectations about what to expect in the job world. I'm not saying you just need CC to get a great job. Of course you have to transfer to a uni to get your BA/BS, but I look at the whole picture to get a candidate.

No, membership in clubs and intramural sports while on campus doesn't give the whole picture. I'm talking education and work history and that's it. I tell candidates to never EVER say anything about hobbies or outside interests during a work interview. I suggest getting a part time job in college instead of joining the Ultimate Frisbee team. Yeah, Frisbee is fun but the job market these days and in the next decade will be very tight and you owe it to yourself to make yourself as marketable as possible. Not everyone will go into a field where they are "guaranteed" a job. The only school activitity that looks good is participation in one of the big sports like football, swimming, soccer, etc. Even then, some hiring managers will pass because of the perception that the person just got into the school on athletic merit instead of educational.

When I look at a resume to consider someone for a position, I'd much rather have someone that worked full time while going to school instead of someone that just went to school and joined clubs and intramural sports. I have limited job openings and an absolute avalanche of candidates. I need to pick out the hustlers, movers, and shakers. Working while studying one sure fire indicator of future success.
 
[quote name='depascal22']
I have dozens of resumes I look at every day and the ones where someone went to community college while working full time at any job stand out to me because I know the person works hard and is willing to sacrifice a little party time to further themself. [/QUOTE]

This just gets back to how much if varies by who looks at the resumes.

For me, I'd see community college with a negative stigma and assume the person was a slacker, or didn't work hard in high school etc. Of course it could be outweighed by subsequently getting a degree with a good GPA from a University I respect or having outstanding work experience in the field.

But being a bit of an academic elitist the CC thing would initially be a negative when I was skimming through resumes. Though it's all moot as I'll never be hiring any one other than undergraduate and graduate students at the University I'm working at as they're all that's eligible to work on research grants I bring in.
 
Dmaul's whole 'elitist' attitude, mentioning his soon-to-be PhD / professorship / graduate studies / school, is extremely funny when you consider his area of focus is a bullshit major at bullshit schools


Too bad he'll never get the joy of reading that sentence, the first and only time someone will mention "Dmaul" and "funny" in the same sentence, as he put me on ignore for disliking Dave Mathews


Dmaul is such a winner, a real winner
 
[quote name='Koggit']Dmaul's whole 'elitist' attitude, mentioning his soon-to-be PhD / professorship / graduate studies / school, is extremely funny when you consider his area of focus is a bullshit major at bullshit schools


Too bad he'll never get the joy of reading that sentence, the first and only time someone will mention "Dmaul" and "funny" in the same sentence, as he put me on ignore for disliking Dave Mathews


Dmaul is such a winner, a real winner[/QUOTE]
I don't agree with dmaul on this, but you calling someone else elitist is fucking hilarious.
 
Yeah, but my elitism is warranted because I'm totally badass... so it's not as funny as dmaul's elitism

Plus, I like better music than he does
 
Let's continue the elitism... who here graduated from a top 10 medical school?.. hands up... anyone... oh yeah... ;)

There we looked down upon those poor bastards who were at #50 ranked med schools... imagine what our opinion of community college grads would be...

(the above post has some aspects of truth to it, but is mainly meant to continue the elitist vibe in this thread :cool:)
 
Any time you have a conversation on this particular topic you will start to talk about and point out elitism. It's the nature of this topic, and part of why I'm so bitter about it.

It's sort of sad to see that people's need/tendency to elevate themselves above others and form a semi-transparent caste system operates at all levels of so-called intelligence and education.
 
I wouldn't get that indepth into it thrust, at least no at what I said.

I simply mean that when digging through stacks of resumes that more or less the same, what makes ones stand out as either needing a further look or going in the trash can is going to vary greatly by the individual reviewing them.

I place great value on education, if the person has went to good schools and made good grades they've shown they have intelligence, commitment and worked hard to keep up a GPA so that's going to help them make the first cut. After that it would come down to experience, the cover letters etc. And of course exceptional experience can keep them in the stack regardless of their educational achievements.

Like I said, it's moot for me as my hiring will consist of undergrad and graduate students at the university I work at, and sitting on committees hiring new professors who all have Ph D's of course. For that I will pay attention to where they did their work. Everyone does. The academic job market sucked this year with all the state budget cuts but I did will since I'm graduating from the number 1 ranked doctoral program in my field which has a great repuation for graduates making names for themselves--as well as of course having letters of reference from famous senior professors which helps a great deal. School prestige and who you have backing you is huge in the academic job market--so you can see where I get my view of the importance of education, school and academic performance from. It's not the whole factor, another big part is having publications in good journals on your curriculum vitae to show that you've been productive as that's the biggest factor going forward in whether or not you'll succeed and get tenure.
 
[quote name='Chase']
If it isn't too sensitive of a topic, for those of you who chose experience over education, how is your life? Do you have any regrets, or did your life turn out just fine? Do you have any advice for the younger CAG crowd?[/quote]

I've kind of been on both sides of this argument(experience vs. education), so let me comment.

I took a break after high school and worked in the games industry. After about three years I noticed that without some kind of degree, it was difficult to get ahead. There were those who did, but it was hard fought and since the games industry is so small (compared to other industries/trades with more opportunities) job security is terrible.

I went back to college and got my BS in CS/Math. During my undergrad career, I started working part time at a fairly famous institution close to where I lived.

After this I went to grad school with intentions at getting a PhD, but noticed that the end result of having a PhD was actually having less job opportunities, some of which payed even worse than just doing standard programming work (entry level positions pay 60k+). Let alone, being a professor after a PhD isn't quite lucrative. Spend 6 years after your PhD making < 50k in hopes you'll get tenured working 100 hour weeks = fail to me. So I got my MS, and left.

In the end I got (within a month of looking) a senior engineering position at another institution that was related to the one I worked for in undergrad and through grad school.

Moral of the story is - get a degree in something you can (easily) get a job with. On the way, do a bit of work to get your experience level up so that when you do finish school, you've got both experience and education to roll with.

I would not recommend someone not going to college, just like I would not recommend getting a degree in English Lit. Find something you enjoy, yet you have a bit of job type security with (CS or any engineering field will get you this).
 
I remember being kind of worried about getting into CS because of outsourcing. Thankfully that doesn't seem to be as bad as some were saying a few years back.
 
[quote name='nathansu']
After this I went to grad school with intentions at getting a PhD, but noticed that the end result of having a PhD was actually having less job opportunities, some of which payed even worse than just doing standard programming work (entry level positions pay 60k+). Let alone, being a professor after a PhD isn't quite lucrative. Spend 6 years after your PhD making < 50k in hopes you'll get tenured working 100 hour weeks = fail to me. So I got my MS, and left.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, like I said earlier you shouldn't get a Ph D if:

1. You don't want to be a professor.
2. Your goal is to make as much money as possible, as quickly as possible and with the least amount of work hours possible.

You should only do it if you're 100% interested in an area and think doing research in that area and teaching and inspiring students to get them interest in that area is something you would enjoy and worth working hard to make a difference.

You're a bit off on the salary and hours worked--unless that's just the norm in your field. Salary isn't off much, but my field tends to start $55-60K first year and you can get raises before tenure. Cost of loving increases, retention packages if other schools are recruiting you, etc. And keep in mind that's just the 9 month salary, my offer included 10% of my salary for summer pay, and I can of course bring in grants and pay myself the other 20% of summer (can have up to 30% of salary in summer). And then there's doing consulting work--can do up to one day (8 hours a week--I typically charge $50 an hour) and as much as you want in the summer.

As for the hours, it's definitely not a 9-5 job, but not many people work 100 hours in the typical week. My friends who have graduated and been professors for a few years (including a couple who have tenure now) say they work 50-60 hours. And of course their are the perks of being able to work from home a lot (i.e. on days you don't teach or have meetings), setting your own schedule (i.e. not having to be up early if you don't want), and more or less being your own boss and doing the research you want to do.

But I agree with you that it's absolutely not something to do if making money is the primary goal of your career. For that at most get a master's, and for a lot of people just learning a trade is going to be a quicker path out of the "rat race." Putting in the time to get a Ph. D and not entering the job market until your late 20's to early 30's doesn't make sense especially given the starting salaries. For most industries you'll be making that much or more by that age by just getting a lower level job and working your way up.

Only do a Ph D if you're thoroughly interested in an area, and/or find the professor lifestyle appealing.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Any time you have a conversation on this particular topic you will start to talk about and point out elitism. It's the nature of this topic, and part of why I'm so bitter about it.

It's sort of sad to see that people's need/tendency to elevate themselves above others and form a semi-transparent caste system operates at all levels of so-called intelligence and education.[/QUOTE]

I agree. It's sad how most grad schools promote the fact that everyone in the field is a colleague, but people always find ways to somehow be better then someone else, whether it be some subjective school ranking or some other meaningless reason. I mean, you can be proud of your achievements, but I don't get why you need to belittle someone else so you can feel better about yourself. Just the nature of people I guess.
 
I think it's just competition. Academia attracts very ambitious people who want to do good work and become known for that work. At least when you're talking about tier 1 research universities. So you get a lot of type A personalities.

Pesonally, I'm not that competitive within my field. I just try to do the best work I can in areas that interest me. Thus far it's served me well in getting a job I really wanted, hopefully it will continue to serve me well as I start my new job and work toward tenure!

And I hope my posts above didn't come across as belittling. I couldn't care less if someone has a degree, where it's from etc. in general day to day life. I was just saying if I was reviewing applications for a job that would be something I'd pay a lot of attention to as it's something I value a lot personally and find a good barometer of showing that someone possesses some modicum of intelligence and committment when all you have to go on is a resume.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']
Only do a Ph D if you're thoroughly interested in an area, and/or find the professor lifestyle appealing.[/quote]

You can still be active in an area without throwing everything in your life away. In any competitive area, it really requires you to put in 80-ish hours per week to make breakthroughs.

That + garbage salary = pretty much guarantee you will have no family. It's difficult to see this until you've been in grad school a few years.

I love certain areas of CS, but not enough to give up my family and turn down a job that is double the salary simply because I have academic interests.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']I remember being kind of worried about getting into CS because of outsourcing. Thankfully that doesn't seem to be as bad as some were saying a few years back.[/quote]

Outsourcing was never really a big problem, it just got a ton of hype.

If you're a good engineer, you'll always be able to find a job in next to any market. In areas that have lots of tech companies, there are engineering jobs everywhere.
 
[quote name='nathansu']You can still be active in an area without throwing everything in your life away. In any competitive area, it really requires you to put in 80-ish hours per week to make breakthroughs.

That + garbage salary = pretty much guarantee you will have no family. It's difficult to see this until you've been in grad school a few years.

I love certain areas of CS, but not enough to give up my family and turn down a job that is double the salary simply because I have academic interests.[/QUOTE]

This is my 7th year of grad school, I just turned 30 and I'll be finishing up this spring and have accepted an assistant professor position for next year. So I know what I'm getting into. :D

I just love what I do, and I'm about 95% sure I never want to have kids so I'm good to go. Just to selfish and self centered to sacrifice that kind of time and expense taking care of someone else, regardless of what kind of career I have.

Grad school has been challenging, but I've always maintained an active social life, still had some time for hobbies (movies, games etc.) despite doing well in school, getting out some publications etc. etc. As a professor life will be busier as I'll be teaching a lot more on top of doing the same amount of research work, but I'm looking forward to it.

But it's 100% not the way to go if you want to just focus on having a family and/or making a lot of money.

But I love it and all the freedom to work on what I want to, not have a direct boss supervising everythng I do, and I really enjoy my research and my teaching so I have no complaints.

And I don't think it's a garbage salary. $60K first year and going up from there is pretty good. Not good for the amount of time it takes to get the job--as I said above--but I won't be scraping to make ends meat. Especially since with my girlfriend our combined income will be around $130K next year.

And of course working in the social sciences, it's not like I could get a job with a master's in my area for twice the salary. Most of my friends that quit after the Master's work for either research firms, law enforcement agencies or government agencies (FBI, GAO, etc.) and they make in they started in the $40-55K range and are making $50-60K now (a couple make more who work a ton of overtime). So for my field the pay as a professor isn't bad, vs. something like CS or business.

But again, working in acadiemia is a job only a select few people want and actually enjoy, so I know I'm in a very small minority. :D
 
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This is is why I love engineering. Internships and co-ops are relatively bountiful. Shit, I worked at two different companies in two different fields this year. That ain't bad.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']
And I hope my posts above didn't come across as belittling. I couldn't care less if someone has a degree, where it's from etc. in general day to day life. I was just saying if I was reviewing applications for a job that would be something I'd pay a lot of attention to as it's something I value a lot personally and find a good barometer of showing that someone possesses some modicum of intelligence and committment when all you have to go on is a resume.[/QUOTE]

I wasn't really talking about you in particular, I was just talking in general about what I've seen out there in the world, as well as some other people on this board.:) I think the way you look at things is probably particular to your field of academia, as it's pretty hard to judge people on anything else when hiring a research assistant or a professor. I guess you probably could go off of their publications in the field though as that would probably also be a pretty good indicator of how successful they would be.
 
Yep, of course publications are another thing you look at. That's part of the experience part of the equation.

But I was saying more generally that I think people like me who place a lot of value in education probably tend to pay more attention to a person having a degree or not, their GPA etc. when reviewing resumes regardless of position. Nothing more than that.
 
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[quote name='dmaul1114']
I just love what I do, and I'm about 95% sure I never want to have kids so I'm good to go. Just to selfish and self centered to sacrifice that kind of time and expense taking care of someone else, regardless of what kind of career I have.
[/quote]

In that regard we're polar opposites. I live to enjoy life with my family, I don't live to make incremental progress in science that may arguably impact no one.


Just understand that if you're in CS/other field that pays relatively well, you've given up 7years*Avg salary. Starting salary in most any engineering field is ~60k. That's close to (before taxes) half a million dollars you've passed up.

I couldn't do that to my family. It took me two years of grad school to figure that out, but I'm certain not pursuing a PhD was the right idea for my family in the long run.

[quote name='dmaul1114']
But I love it and all the freedom to work on what I want to, not have a direct boss supervising everythng I do, and I really enjoy my research and my teaching so I have no complaints.
[/quote]

Wait until you're pointed in certain directions by professors at whatever institution you land in. Since you're a newby, you'll be asked to teach those all so challenging and rewarding CS 101 courses, which I'm sure will be fantastic.
[quote name='dmaul1114']
And I don't think it's a garbage salary. $60K first year and going up from there is pretty good. Not good for the amount of time it takes to get the job--as I said above--but I won't be scraping to make ends meat. Especially since with my girlfriend our combined income will be around $130K next year.
[/quote]
It's garbage compared to starting salary combined with the fact you've given up 7 years of it. That and 7 years in industry, your salary would be way, way larger than the starting point of 60k.

[quote name='dmaul1114']
And of course working in the social sciences, it's not like I could get a job with a master's in my area for twice the salary. Most of my friends that quit after the Master's work for either research firms, law enforcement agencies or government agencies (FBI, GAO, etc.) and they make in they started in the $40-55K range and are making $50-60K now (a couple make more who work a ton of overtime). So for my field the pay as a professor isn't bad, vs. something like CS or business.
[/quote]

Ah, see there's the difference. Average starting salary for non-engineering things is kind of sucky, so you have quite the different situation.

Cheers for going through with it, and good luck in the future. I'm blessed to have a fantastic job with my MS alone, get paid great, and enjoy the shit out of what I do (work in space sciences). I hope you find the same through whatever educations/route you choose.
 
[quote name='nathansu']In that regard we're polar opposites. I live to enjoy life with my family, I don't live to make incremental progress in science that may arguably impact no one.
[/quote]

Yep that's just a different life focus. And like I said, I lead a very active social life and spend a lot of time with friends, my girlfriend (though that's been long distance for a year and a half since she graduated--though I'm going to the same university and department as her so that will be great next year). So I'm not one of those 100% career focused people. I'm just not very interested in having kids.

Just understand that if you're in CS/other field that pays relatively well, you've given up 7years*Avg salary. Starting salary in most any engineering field is ~60k. That's close to (before taxes) half a million dollars you've passed up.
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Yep, like I said my field is different so it doesn't apply as the Ph D starting salaries are generally better than what people make with just an MA. And I'm not very focused on money since I don't have much debt and don't plan on having kids, and live fairly modestly in terms of not needing McMansion etc. As long as I can pay bills comfortably and have money left over for some luxuries (good food, beer, movies, games etc.) after saving up for retirment I'm happy.

Wait until you're pointed in certain directions by professors at whatever institution you land in. Since you're a newby, you'll be asked to teach those all so challenging and rewarding CS 101 courses, which I'm sure will be fantastic.
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I was very lucky in that regard. My area of interest and research focuses on policing and the department I'm going to desperately needed someone to teach policing courses. Though I asked out of it for my first semester as I'd rather teach 2 sections of criminal justice which I've taught before so I don't have to prepare a new class as I have big research grant I'll still be wrapping up that semester. But after that I'll be teaching mostly policing classes at the undergraduate and graduate level as that's what I was hired for.

But I do like teaching the intro classes as it's fun to have students new to the field and to try to get them interested in criminology.
 
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