Enemies to Lovers: The Tobacco Industry and the States

[quote name='VipFREAK']
Wha? Not around here. lol[/QUOTE]

Probably varies by area and social class or areas etc. I'd expect. But studies show the majority of people don't smoke, especially among younger generations. Here are some stats.

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/content/PED_10_2X_Cigarette_Smoking.asp

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported that 43.4 million US adults were current smokers in 2007 (the most recent year for which numbers are available). This is 19.8% of all adults (22.3% of men, 17.4% of women) -- about 1 out of 5 people.

When broken down by race/ethnicity, the numbers were as follows:
Whites 21.4%
African Americans 19.8%
Hispanics 13.3%
American Indians/Alaska Natives 36.4%
Asian Americans 9.6%

There were more cigarette smokers in the younger age groups. In 2007, the CDC reported almost 22.8% of those 25 to 44 years old were current smokers, compared to 8.3% in those aged 65 or older.

Nationwide, 20% of high school students were smoking cigarettes in 2007.The most recent survey of middle school students shows that 6% were smoking cigarettes. More White and Hispanic students smoked cigarettes. (For more information, see our document, Child and Teen Tobacco Use.)
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[quote name='mykevermin']
I want to see some evidence to support the claim that it "instantly can affect the health of others...with allergies." And I want to see it tied to *health*, not merely any allergic reaction.

If we're going to hide behind allergies in our arguments, then shouldn't we ban peanuts from bars before we kill someone with a peanut allergy? Or just put the barrel of peanuts 20 feet outside of the bar?[/QUOTE]

There are plenty of examples of "health" issues, and there are two of the most common ones.

People with allergies tend to have chronic sinusitius. Allergy flare ups triggered by things like cigarette smoke lead to sinus infections among such people, myself included. That's a health problem.

Asthma--smoke exposure exacerbates respiratory problems for people with asthma. That's a health problem.

And for fuck's sake for a smart guy you come up with some dumb as fuck analogies. We can ban the peanuts when they start floating threw the air and directly affecting everyone in the place (including those with allergies) the way cigarette smoke does in a bar/restaurant that allows smoking. :roll:

Smoke is just a unique thing as if it's allowed it fills the place, and very few places are built with any kind of completely set off area that could be a smoking area with absolutely no way for smoke to get into the non-smoking area. That said I'm ok if smoking is allowed if it's couple with regulations and inspections to ensure that smoking areas are 100% isolated from the non smoking areas and that there's little way for smoke to drift over.
 
[quote name='QiG']:applause: Nicely played.

I always like smoking arguments because it seems as one side can just come up with thin blanket statements and then fall back on "Well it's my right to yadda yadda/They don't have a right to..." while blatantly ignoring that they actually DON'T have a right to dictate the actions of others. The underlying intolerance never succeeds to hide it's ugly head when this is brought up.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but rights end when the infringe on the rights to others. And again rights is the wrong term here as we're talking about privileges.

The privilege to smoke wherever you please, vs. the privilege of non-smokers to go to restaurants and bars without worrying about whether smoking is allowed or they have a smoke free non-smoking section.

Rights/privileges end when the infringe on the health and safety of others.

Ban's shouldn't be needed if human beings had any natural common decency. It shouldn't be that hard to just ask yourself in any public setting "Will what I want to do negatively affect others around me?" before doing and to refrain from doing it when the answer is in the affirmative. But most people are worthless, selfish pricks that care about nothing other than doing whatever they want, where ever and whenever they want.
 
You should have mentioned your allergies for full disclosure purposes earlier on. That's rather dishonest of you.

And you clearly know very little about the extent and danger of peanut allergens if you think that a bar, with a barrel of in-shell peanuts and shells all over the floor, peanut dust floating everywhere, is not a risk factor for some people. And one that is far more likely to be immediately lethal given how people with peanut/legume reactions allergies react when they encounter them.

Am I being absurd in this comparison? Yes and no. A barrel of unshelled peanuts is a risk factor to people, one that is more lethal than smoking, even if the susceptible population for the latter is smaller than the former.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']
Ban's shouldn't be needed if human beings had any natural common decency. It shouldn't be that hard to just ask yourself in any public setting "Will what I want to do negatively affect others around me?" before doing and to refrain from doing it when the answer is in the affirmative. But most people are worthless, selfish pricks that care about nothing other than doing whatever they want, where ever and whenever they want.[/quote]

That's the thing... they don't, all they see is their addiction or habit kicking in. My best friend and his wife would probably be a 24/7 chimney if they could.
 
Fair enough.

It's just a matter of the old saying of "Your rights end when they infringe on the rights of others", though again here we're discussing privileges.

And to me (even if I wasn't personally affected) it's clear that smoking in public places loses that battle, which is why I didn't mention my allergies as I'd support bans through and through without them (and smoke only started bother my allergies over the past 5 years or so). My personal allergies have little to do with my stance--my mother's poor health from a life of smoking would have more of an impact than that.

1. No behaviors should be allowed in public places that pose direct health risks to other people.

2. When a behavior causes such problems for others, the people participating in the behavior bear the burden of making accomodations.

3. On top of that it's a matter of which is more of a burden. No smoking ban, and non-smokers who hate smoke or have health issues are vastly limited in the number of places they can go for food or drinks and the number of places they can work waiting tables etc. Smoking ban and smokers can eat or drink anywhere and are just mildly inconvenienced by having to step outside to smoke or go an hour or two without a smoke.

So sorry, smokers lose that battle, and have lost that battle more often than not around the country, especially in larger cities. But even in smaller towns in places like WV most of the towns/cities have bans in place these days.

It's just common sense that smokers should bear the burden in this case, not the majority (80% from the above stats) of non-smokers.

Hopefully the number of smokers will keep shrinking, and smoking will continue to be stigmatized, so eventually in the future smoking bans won't be needed as it will be a taboo to even think of lighting up in public around others. And I think it will happen, like I said among my friends I don't hear any grumbling about smoking bans etc. from the smokers as they understand that it's not reasonable to light up in a room full of non-smokers, kids etc. etc. It's more of an issue of the older generation that was used to smoking anywhere they wanted--bars, airplanes etc. etc.

[quote name='VipFREAK']That's the thing... they don't, all they see is their addiction or habit kicking in. My best friend and his wife would probably be a 24/7 chimney if they could.[/QUOTE]

Definitely. But as I said above I think on average it's less of a problem with the younger crowd. Though I do wonder if I'm confounding age with education/social class since my circle of friends is pretty well off and all have (or are working on) Master's and Ph D's. But at the same time even back to undergrad from 1998-2002 I don't recall many of my smoking friends/acquaintances bitching much about the smoking bans.

So I do think it's more a generational thing and some older folks who are super addicted were just spoiled by being able to smoke anywhere 20-30 years ago.
 
They have to have some major health issue come up first before they quit. I seriously doubt anyone will say they really quit. This is from observation around me. If you disagree and think you can just quit or quit cold turkey and actually really quit I'll tip my hat to you and be impressed, I'm not holdin my breath though. Oops... no pun intended.
 
80% of the American population doesn't smoke, but 100% of the American population don't go to bars.

Not a particularly accurate comparison.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']80% of the American population doesn't smoke, but 100% of the American population don't go to bars.

Not a particularly accurate comparison.[/QUOTE]

Smoking bans generally affect all public buildings, not just bars. Some affect everything but bars.

But fair enough. Even if it was 80% smokers and 20% non-smokers, smokers shouldn't have the right/privilege to do something in public places that has negative consequences for others around them.

Again, have Cigar bars that are licensed just like liquor so smokers have a place to hang out and smoke in public.

I just have zero respect for people who think that it's reasonable to light up around others. It's just a completely selfish and self absorbed act with no regard for the well being of others.

[quote name='VipFREAK']They have to have some major health issue come up first before they quit. I seriously doubt anyone will say they really quit. This is from observation around me. If you disagree and think you can just quit or quit cold turkey and actually really quit I'll tip my hat to you and be impressed, I'm not holdin my breath though. Oops... no pun intended.[/QUOTE]

Oh I agree 100% on quitting. My mother has tried to quit numerous times over my life and never been remotely successful.

But we're talking about just not lighting up in public, and not being outraged by having to step outside etc. I don't care if people smoke, a few of my good friends do. But they don't bitch about not being able to smoke in public, or in friends cars or houses etc. The key is decency and being thoughtful to others.
 
My friends will have a Smoking break and go outside. In this situation wind is everything, it could be helpful or a bitch. I'm usually the only one not smoking... Yep, I'm the asshole. I guess yeah if they weren't my closest friend's I wouldn't have stuck around too. It's sad watching them because I know what path they are heading and there's nothing I can do. I can ask them to quit til I'm blue in the face but it won't make a damn bit of differences. Funny listening to their reasoning about quiting though.
 
As I said before, if you don't like it, open up your own bar, then.

Many restaurants went smoke free of their own volition. Throughout much of my young adult working career, I worked in a number of places that, irrespective of the law, went smoke free. Some did, and some did not. But being able to make that choice was theirs.

It's not about your rights versus the rights of smokers. It's about letting businesses dictate how they run their businesses.

My vested interest? Why am I so interested in this? I was a bartender in Cincinnati for a few years. Made fantastic money. fuckton of money. Was awesome at my job. Loved every minute of it (including beating someone up in front of their own mother).

The smoking ban hit my tips like a motherfucker. People didn't come to Cincy bars anymore. They went across the river, half a mile south, to Kentucky. The smokers didn't stop smoking, they stopped coming to the Cincy bars, and the nonsmokers never came. The law affected the market, and the business owners' hands were tied in getting back the business they lost.

In a strange turn of events, my money was good enough I may have stopped school after undergrad to bartend, so perhaps I'm thankful for the bleating windbags who never made good on their promises to come to the bars if smoking was banned. They said they would, and they voted on it like they would. And then they did not.

The bar I worked at closed in 2004, reopened later in the year, and closed again at the end of 2008.

If a bar, on its own, however, had the *option* to go smoke-free, that's their choice, right? Why isn't that acceptable to you? It's acceptable to me. Again, it's not about smokers versus nonsmokers rights as clientele. It's about the rights of business owners to do business how they see fit, and not be forced to close because the local laws killed off their market, and the aren't-we-wonderful-we-banned-smoking-now-we-can-go-drink public never went out to drink.

If you want selfish and self-absorbed, dude, look into a fucking mirror, because you're holding all bars and restaurants - even the ones you never, ever, ever intend on going to, to a standard based on you and your interests. A standard that is quite possible to implement without resorting to legislation.
 
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I get your angle on business freedom.

But I just don't respect that stance for this particular instance. People should not have the right to do things in public that endanger others and negatively affect other people. It's more of an individual thing with me than the consequence on the business. And I don't see that as selfish.

And again, there should be cigarette/cigar bars that could also have liquor licenses. Just require them to have Cigar/Cigarette/Tobacco in the name/on the sign so people know what they are and can easily avoid them, not get drug along with friends and have to bail on a night out etc.

And it can help out these kind of low brow bars that are full of smokers drinking cheap beer and whiskey stay in business by becoming a cigar bar. Most of the bars I go to would go out of business if the changed to ALLOW smoking, since smoking like a chimney is less prevalent among the crowd paying $10+ for good beers. :D

But there is of course no reason smokers can't have a place to hang out, smoke and drink. But those should be specialized and clearly marked locations and businesses should have an extra license to get. With the harms of smoking on society (health costs etc.) we need as many barriers to smoking as possible. And having most bars and all restaurants that aren't bars not allow smoking is another good hurdle to have in the way IMO--on top of just making most places more accomodating to the 80% of non-smokers.

And also, I've said many times that such things shouldn't be necessary. People shouldn't think it reasonable to light up in public, and thus the issue wouldn't matter for business owners. But people are selfish an addicted so we're a long way from that being the case, and thus I support bans. You don't and that's where we have to agree to disagree.

And lastly, we're on the topic of bars, but it's really with restaurants where it bothers me since you have lots of kids around etc. I like smoking bans in bars too for personal reasons since I hit a bar 1-3 nights a week generally and like to be able to bar hop without worrying about smoke. But I'm more vigilant about the bans in restaurants. I can tolerate a smoking ban only applying restaurants and not bars, especially since again most of the pricey beer bars I frequent would be highly unlikely to allow smoking anyway.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']We'll just have to agree to disagree. I get your angle on business freedom.[/quote]

Fair enough.

But I just don't respect that stance for this particular instance. People should not have the right to do things in public that endanger others and negatively affect other people. It's more of an individual thing with me than the consequence on the business. And I don't see that as selfish.
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;)

And again, there should be cigarette/cigar bars that could also have liquor licenses. Just require them to have Cigar/Cigarette/Tobacco in the name/on the sign so people know what they are and can easily avoid them, not get drug along with friends and have to bail on a night out etc.
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Should we ensure that bars with nothing but slags in them, instead of attractive, young, intelligent women, name their venues accordingly?

"Rhino's"? ;)

And it can help out these kind of low brow bars that are full of smokers drinking cheap beer and whiskey stay in business by becoming a cigar bar. Most of the bars I go to would go out of business if the changed to ALLOW smoking, since smoking like a chimney is less prevalent among the crowd paying $10+ for good beers. :D
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I'm skeptical that there's a link b/w smoking prevalence and taste for beer. And if your bars would go out of business if they permitted smoking, then we would call the proprietors knuckleheads if they did permit it, right?

That's the thing, dmaul. Nobody is forcing bar owners to permit smoking or not to permit it. I'd rather it be that way that a carte blanche in either direction.

And lastly, we're on the topic of bars, but it's really with restaurants where it bothers me since you have lots of kids around etc. I like smoking bans in bars too for personal reasons since I hit a bar 1-3 nights a week generally and like to be able to bar hop without worrying about smoke. But I'm more vigilant about the bans in restaurants. I can tolerate a smoking ban only applying restaurants and not bars, especially since again most of the pricey beer bars I frequent would be highly unlikely to allow smoking anyway.
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Bars = adults, who can hang out for 1-god only knows how many hours straight. Restaurants = families, you bet. And since the purpose of a restaurant is eating (unless it's one of those places with sommoliers n' apertifs n' shit where you spend a good 4 hours or so), your time commitment from entrance to leaving is 60-120 minutes (unless you're the kind of chowderhead that would wait 60 minutes for a table at "TGI Friday's"). With the time frame in mind, I'm much more amenable to your "just fuckin' hold onto your nic fit for a minute, willya?" argument.

Restaurants I don't disagree on. Bars should be up to the owner.
 
Like I said, we can agree to disagree. I'm less pushy on bars, but prefer to bar hop without having to worry about what bars are smoke free and what aren't.

And,again, I just see stepping out to smoke as less of a burden (and to less people) than people having to stay away to avoid smokey environments. The burden should like on people negatively effecting others, not on people who just experience an inconvenience themselves. I don't like that it has to be regulated, but smokes are super addicted in many cases and people are selfish in general so they just don't see it that way. And in many places that's a large enough number that most bars would choose to allow smoking and leave non-smokers few or no options for bar outings.

In the places in WV that don't have bans, all the bars are smoke filled and impossible for me to enter--not that any are worthwhile anyway with the state's stupid 6% ABV limit for beer. :roll: Though it looks like a bill is going to pass to increase it to 12%--but I don't look for the beer selection to improve anyway as it's a poor state and there isn't much of a market for pricey beer outside of maybe Huntington, Morgantown and Charleston, and maybe the eastern Panhandle where a lot of DC commuters live. But, oy, getting off topic with this rambling...

Finally, my comment on the bars I go to is just that there's not that many people I see running out to smoke, and usually only 1 or 2 people outside smoking at any given time even when the place is packed. Compared to some of the crappier bars some of my younger friends sometimes drag me to that only have Bud, Coors and Miller on tap where there seems to be many more smokers around. *shrugs*

But really nothing more to be said. I just hugely hate smoking to the point that it makes me think less of people who do it. It's a disgusting habit and a personal weakness, and it absolutely infuriates me when people make me suffer from their weakness by being so addicted they have to light up in public settings.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']And I like having a job that contributes something to society rather than just providing a consumer service.[/QUOTE]

In other words, people who provide a consumer service contribute nothing to society, but academics in the humanities do. :whistle2:s Really, dmaul?

Coincidentally, I recently read something about how a lot of people go to grad school looking for validation from society. They want to be told that they're important and special. They hang out with others like them who want the same thing. This has some predictable consequences.
 
Well Rick, if you don't think people doing research to try and find the best ways to prevent crime and keep communties safe is more useful than consumer service I don't no what to say.

Other than my standard response to the nerd losers on this site of "go choke on a dick and die!"

This site sucks. But what do I expect, it's kids and adult nerds addicted to video games. And fuck ups like me who hardly play video games yet keep coming back!

Time to remove myself from the latter category, so I bid CAG ado.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Well Rick, if you don't think people doing research to try and find the best ways to prevent crime and keep communties safe is more useful than consumer service I don't no what to say.[/quote]

That's not even what you said, and I think you know that. You didn't say you contribute more. You just said you contribute to society and they don't.

Other than my standard response to the nerd losers on this site of "go choke on a dick and die!"

This site sucks. But what do I expect, it's kids and adult nerds addicted to video games. And fuck ups like me who hardly play video games yet keep coming back!

Time to remove myself from the latter category, so I bid CAG ado.
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Hmm...I'm not sure how to respond to this. But there does seem to be a connection between what I posted:

[quote name='rickonker']Coincidentally, I recently read something about how a lot of people go to grad school looking for validation from society. They want to be told that they're important and special. They hang out with others like them who want the same thing. This has some predictable consequences.[/quote]

and what you're doing, which is to attempt to insult CAGs and make yourself appear better than the rest of us.

But anyway, I hope you return when you feel better.
 
[quote name='rickonker']
and what you're doing, which is to attempt to insult CAGs and make yourself appear better than the rest of us.

But anyway, I hope you return when you feel better.[/quote]

I can't say I'd miss dmaul (not that he'll really go away). Arguing against a group of people "who think the world revolves around them" because he feels personally inconvenienced sums up his contributions in a shade of irony only lost on himself. I just wish that I had gone to graduate school, frequented bars that serve $10+ beer, and not been a loser videogame addict or I could have had a fighting chance of being deemed worthy in his eyes. :bomb:
 
On an aside, one of the best compliments I received in many, many years was a few weeks ago. I was sittin' around a table, wearing my Saturday finest (probably a motorhead t-shirt, cutoff black camos, and black chuck taylors with the weekly piece of duct tape on the bottom to keep the rainwater from seeping in), bullshit with folks.

And this cat, who I just met that afternoon but had been corresponding with via e-mail for a few weeks prior to the event, says to me "man, you are completely devoid of any pretension whatsoever!"

Likewise, when I swung by my ma's house last weekend to grab some tennis rackets since I was in town, ostensibly wearing the same thing but with a stink of hangover and no showering, she looks at me and says, "well, if it isn't the great Doctor! Do you show up to class looking like that?"

I've mentioned it before, allude to it when I talk about my work, but I am a professor. I have a Ph.D. I'm proud of my work, I'm proud of my accomplishments, and I'm proud of who I am.

But I'm not going to ram it down your throat like a big snotty cock of doom. I don't use it as leverage of my inherent superiority. It's not useful like that.

It's where you come from, I suppose. If you know that you need more than one hand to count the number of friends who have overdosed on drugs in your lifetime, and you talk with friends today who are starting college in their mid-30's, others who are 7 months sober, had all their teeth pulled due to rotting, and are excited about the prospect of getting a janitorial job, it provides some perspective. That friend is putting a lot more effort into doing things than I need to. He has to in order to succeed. I look up to that bastard. He's the dude.

Am I more educated in some areas than others? You bet. That's a fact. Likewise, another friend of mine who couldn't write a two page paper, given infinite time, to save his life, is a wealth of knowledge in terms of nutrition and lifting that I am not. I do my thing, but I'm no expert. Built my lifting schedule, but don't deviate from it - and more to the point, don't *know how* to deviate from it. "fuck, someone's using the incline lift! What do I do now?" Honestly, I putz around and wait for it to empty, b/c I'm fuckin' clueless at that sort of thing.

I'm not trying to turn this into some sort of "we're all special, we're all god's children" weepy stuff. But I would like to point out that different people perform different functions in society. At a broad level, we may look down out nose at those who manufacture the foods we buy, drive the trucks to the stores, and stock the shelves. We may laugh at the plebeian plumbers who make sure we have flowing water in our house. But you'd fuckin' die without 'em.

Also, on another note, I greatly miss kitchen work. fuckin' loved it. Shame it pays for shit. $8.50/hour, a cassette player, and a dishwasher? That was me at 17. Them were the days.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Time to remove myself from the latter category, so I bid CAG ado.[/quote]

boy-in-shane-movie.jpg
 
If dmaul were just a complete asshole I'd probably be taking credit, but at least he was able to respond to people he disagreed with, unlike some people here.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I've mentioned it before, allude to it when I talk about my work, but I am a professor. I have a Ph.D. I'm proud of my work, I'm proud of my accomplishments, and I'm proud of who I am.

But I'm not going to ram it down your throat like a big snotty cock of doom. I don't use it as leverage of my inherent superiority. It's not useful like that.[/QUOTE]

Worried about the guillotine? :lol:
 
[quote name='Dead of Knight']fuck that. I'm sick of walking around campus and constantly getting cigarette smoke in my face. It's not just the person who smokes that's affected.[/QUOTE]

And it's just not the person who drinks that gets affected.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']
This site sucks. But what do I expect, it's kids and adult nerds addicted to video games. And fuck ups like me who hardly play video games yet keep coming back!

Time to remove myself from the latter category, so I bid CAG ado.[/QUOTE]

Man, this sounds like my 8 year old little brother when he I don't buy him a toy he wants.
 
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