First Tunisia, Now Egypt

N

nasum

CAGiversary!
While not exactly the same issue in both countries, it's kind of fascinating that they're both happening at about the same time.

So Sec. of State Hilary Clinton is "urging restraint" by Egyptian police in dealing with protesters. Egyptian govt officials have done their best to squash communication efforts so that protesters can't turn into flash-riots.
All this while the US has kept this guy in power since 1981, all the while pushing for democracy worldwide since that's the only way to have peace. I swear, this country is like the best standup comedian ever...
 
I have an Egyptian friend. Egyptian police don't show restraint in normal times. Some are joining the opposition however.
 
haha, I was in Egypt for vacation less than a month ago.

Mubarak has been our 'ally' for the past 30 years, maintaining friendly relations with every single American administration. He's no doubt a dictator, but don't act surprised that Biden said that. Every other president has supported Mubarak.
 
[quote name='IRHari']haha, I was in Egypt for vacation less than a month ago.

Mubarak has been our 'ally' for the past 30 years, maintaining friendly relations with every single American administration. He's no doubt a dictator, but don't act surprised that Biden said that. Every other president has supported Mubarak.[/QUOTE]

I keep waiting for the presidential election in the US that will play out like that Monty Python Sketch about election night and voting for the guy that's a concrete cube...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31FFTx6AKmU
that's the one!
 
I wonder if we were on better footing with Iran how we would defend Ahmadineja and Iran's issues.
 
Totally uninformed dude here. What's the significance of him calling for the ministers to resign? Is this going to lead to a symbolic replacement of the government (except, of course, Mubarak)? Or is it something significant and substantive (i.e., the government in toto stepping down)?
 
Almost everyone in the government is Mubarak's dude. He even banned the 'Muslim Brotherhood' from running for office during elections.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Totally uninformed dude here. What's the significance of him calling for the ministers to resign? Is this going to lead to a symbolic replacement of the government (except, of course, Mubarak)? Or is it something significant and substantive (i.e., the government in toto stepping down)?[/QUOTE]
It is literally meaningless. The rest of his government is a rubber stamp and serves entirely at his discretion in normal times, he's just replacing one group of cronies with others.

Obama really missed an opportunity here. This could've been his "tear down this wall" moment, instead all we got was wishy washy nonsense.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Obama really missed an opportunity here. This could've been his "tear down this wall" moment, instead all we got was wishy washy nonsense.[/QUOTE]

This can be said about his entire presidency so far.

I can't put into words how disappointed I am with him and his administration.

They all fucking blow and I can't imagine another five years of this (or one + four of whatever morons the republicans decide to run)

- edit
Biden had no problem calling Julian Assange a terrorist, but is reluctant to call Mubarek a dictator. America at it's best.
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lol
 
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[quote name='KrizB']Just heard about people trying to loot and/or destroy every thing in the Muesems.
:roll:[/QUOTE]

Did you also hear about the human chain a bunch of younger people formed around the museum to protect it until the military came?

- edit And I'm hearing that it is NDP officers in plainclothes doing the looting.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Did you also hear about the human chain a bunch of younger people formed around the museum to protect it until the military came?

- edit And I'm hearing that it is NDP officers in plainclothes doing the looting.[/QUOTE]

No, I only have heard what Al Jazeera has reported.
:lol:
 
I think of this whole thing as one of the most atrocious pieces of political ballet that I've ever seen. On one hand, we here in America like to spread democracy, it's our calling of sorts. So we spread democracy by backing a guy who has been "president" for going on three decades. Now of course we do this because the guy is (at least on the surface) US friendly and won't blow up Israel for something to do.
On the other hand, we simply can't allow open democracy in the region because then the "muslim plague" will have a foothold based on democracy as opposed to domestic terrorism. How does America reconcile that?

The stance is basically no stance at all, aside from "Hey guys, ya'll just simma down now" which does absolutely nothing.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']let them do whatever they want, there is no reason for us to care one way or another. we aren't the world police.[/QUOTE]

I'm going to wax a little philosophical here. If a person does nothing to right a wrong, is that person just as guilty as those who are doing wrong?
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']let them do whatever they want, there is no reason for us to care one way or another. we aren't the world police.[/QUOTE]

well, there kind of is a good reason as there is a possibility that some nutjob a la Iran guy could come in and literally be right on Isreal with a fairly impressive military funded by US Aid. If that's the case, all the time/money/effort in protecting Isreal while supplimenting a dictator will be for naught. It is a pretty tight rope to have to walk. Display to the world that we're not as pro-democracy as we like to say we are, or once again be forced into a major conflict due to our interests in the Mid-East.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I'm going to wax a little philosophical here. If a person does nothing to right a wrong, is that person just as guilty as those who are doing wrong?[/QUOTE]
You're an idiot of the highest order.
 
[quote name='Clak']You're an idiot of the highest order.[/QUOTE]

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke

Was he an idiot of the highest order too? I'm not saying we need to intervene in what is going on in Egypt, but certainly you would agree there are some situations in which we cannot remain pure isolationists.
 
[quote name='nasum']On the other hand, we simply can't allow open democracy in the region because then the "muslim plague" will have a foothold based on democracy as opposed to domestic terrorism.[/QUOTE]

wtf is that shit in bold?

[quote name='pittpizza'] Was he an idiot of the highest order too? I'm not saying we need to intervene in what is going on in Egypt, but certainly you would agree there are some situations in which we cannot remain pure isolationists.[/QUOTE]

I would agree. But in answer to Bob's question, they're not all the same. We wouldn't be isolationists if there was another Holocaust, but something that horrible isn't happening here.

Bob's generic question seems to imply the 'wrong' here is a grassroots opposition to a dictator.
 
[quote name='pittpizza']"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke

Was he an idiot of the highest order too? I'm not saying we need to intervene in what is going on in Egypt, but certainly you would agree there are some situations in which we cannot remain pure isolationists.[/QUOTE]
He quoted my own post, I posted what he quoted, he's attempting to use my own words against me and I'm not going to let him do that.

Of course the funny thing is that it was hypothetical post and I never said I agreed with any of it, I was just trying to pose a philosophical question.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']It's funny that this is your response to your own words. :D[/QUOTE]
You're an idiot of the highest order x1000000000000000.
 
Oh, okay. I see about UncleBob's post.

Back on topic: I wish that we revolted more here in the U.S. We are too damn civil and orderly. Not revolt, thats the wrong word, but get out in the streets and protest more. Our government and the police especially are not afraid of the citizenry at all.

Moreover it doesnt surprise me that the police and some of the army or breaking ranks. There are all kinds of cops and soldiers, some good, some bad.
 
[quote name='IRHari']I would agree. But in answer to Bob's question, they're not all the same. We wouldn't be isolationists if there was another Holocaust, but something that horrible isn't happening here.

Bob's generic question seems to imply the 'wrong' here is a grassroots opposition to a dictator.[/QUOTE]

The "wrong" could be viewed from either way - violent uprising by a segment of the citizenry or extreme government unjustly ruling. Do we side with the dirty rebels or the filthy government? Is it even our decision to make?

[quote name='camoor']:)

:)You're :) a terrible :) troll :):):D:)[/QUOTE]

You keep saying stuff like this, but I'd like to point out that if I were a troll, I'd have to be a pretty good once, as many times as I manage to get you to reply to me.

[quote name='Clak']Of course the funny thing is that it was hypothetical post and I never said I agreed with any of it, I was just trying to pose a philosophical question.[/QUOTE]

Sure, sure...
 
So what should we do? Egypt is one of America's strongest allies. They provide intelligence that we simply cannot source ourselves. They have a strong Muslim Brotherhood movement, which is hardcore Islamist and positively hates us and would probably sweep to power in popular elections. They guarantee our passage of the Suez for military purposes which allows us to force multiply and project power in ways that cannot be replaced. They not only are one of Israel's strongest allies in the region (arguably the strongest (and let's be real here, it's a strategic concern of ours whether we like it or not)), but they actively work to prevent arms from entering Gaza, which is good for everyone.

Yea, dude is a dictator, but sometimes you have to work with what you got or you become the world police.

Jordan is in trouble now too. Two of our three strongest Arab friends in the region have dissolved their cabinets this week. Bad week for American influence in the region. Hopefully it comes out well in the end. King Abdullah is amazing. I'd hate to see him go.
Jordan's King Abdullah II fired his government Tuesday in the wake of street protests and asked an ex-prime minister to form a new Cabinet, ordering him to launch immediate political reforms.

The dismissal follows several large protests across Jordan_ inspired by similar demonstrations in Tunisia and Egypt — calling for the resignation of Prime Minister Samir Rifai, who is blamed for a rise in fuel and food prices and slowed political reforms.

A Royal Palace statement said Abdullah accepted Rifai's resignation tendered earlier Tuesday.

The king named Marouf al-Bakhit as his prime minister-designate, instructing him to "undertake quick and tangible steps for real political reforms, which reflect our vision for comprehensive modernization and development in Jordan," the palace statement said.
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[quote name='Don Chubo']http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=206130

This is not a good thing.[/QUOTE]
That's the part that worries me. With the very substantial benefits we've reaped from the Mubarak relationship, we've also sown a hatred not only from the Islamists, but the nationalists and democratic supporters. The people we're supposed to forever be aligned with and supporting. The regular people that are just like us.

We kind of made the bed we're sleeping in. But shit man. How do we root for a dynastic dictator? This feels like the credit crash. We loved the good times and ignored the bill that was coming due.

To his credit (or to detract, based on opinion I guess), Obama sees the writing on the wall:
The Obama administration said for the first time that it supports a role for groups such as the Muslim Brotherhood, a banned Islamist organization, in a reformed Egyptian government.

The organization must reject violence and recognize democratic goals if the U.S. is to be comfortable with it taking part in the government, the White House said. But by even setting conditions for the involvement of such nonsecular groups, the administration took a surprise step in the midst of the crisis that has enveloped Egypt for the last week.

The statement was an acknowledgment that any popularly accepted new government will probably include groups that are not considered friendly to U.S. interests, and was a signal that the White House is prepared for that probability after 30 years of reliable relations with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.
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I would say Obama is insane to even mention the Muslim Brotherhood as a governmental actor but shit, look what it did to Hamas. They're a bunch of neutered house kittens now.

The world is fucking strange right now. Who saw this one coming?
Hamas authorities prevented demonstrations in the Gaza Strip aimed at showing solidarity with anti-government protesters in Egypt, Human Rights Watch said late Monday.

Police arrested six women and threatened to arrest some 20 other would-be demonstrators who arrived at a park in Gaza City in response to a Facebook-planned demonstration, the group said citing witnesses. Police allegedly ordered the women to sign pledges not participate in unsanctioned demonstrations, witnesses told the human rights group.
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Hamas is against the uprising? WTF?
 
IRHari - "muslim plague", finger quotes for the sake of irony. Can't remember where I head it but I thought it was hilarious.
At any rate, Good Ol' Glenn Beck was making a point that we shouldn't support Mubarak because he tortures people with our money, yet Gitmo is cool. That dude's mouth has many sides. I bet with the proper amount of salt and ketchup he could get through at least a box 'n a half of good solid dick...

Also, holy crap, George Clooney is in charge of Hamas?!?

250px-
 
That Clooney look alike picture is incredible.

Cheezburger fans in Egypt:
ra528477178.jpg


Apparently the protests have completely locked up Egypt's economy and people are saying that pressure is going to be what knocks over the government (if anything does).

capt.photo_1296588607625-1-0.jpg

capt.photo_1296588539921-1-0.jpg
 
Well, I suppose those people aren't going to work if they're hanging out in the street all day long. Then again, your Egyptian equivalent of Subway is probably doing a killing right now.
 
I was listening to NPR earlier(I'm addicted alright, gimme a break) and they had someone on there explaining the ways in which the view of the Muslim Brotherhood in the west is wrong. He said a lot of people feel they want an Iranian style government, but that they do not believe in clerical rule, nor do they have connections to Al-Qaeda as many people think. Keep in mind I said he said all this, not that I beleive it wholesale.
 
Well that's still 7 months away, plus post election transition of power, plus the likelihood of corruption in the upcoming election. As much as I hate to say it, I think it's basically GTFO Now or they won't be happy.
So if that's the case, who comes in to take over and what do they do with everything? I mean hell, election time is annoying and chaotic here in the US, but I can't imagine a "peaceful coup" such as it would be being anything but a snafu....
 
I was reading a story about how a group had to pay a cop something like $2k just so he'd let them on their plane.

Also, now the pro Mubarak group is attacking the anti-Mubarak group. Things aren't looking good.
 
This is getting pretty bad, never mind attacks from the police or army, attacks from Mubarak's supporters are happening now.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110202/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_egypt

At one of the fighting's front lines, next to the famed Egyptian Museum at the edge of Tahrir Square, pro-government rioters blanketed the rooftops of nearby buildings and dumped bricks and firebombs onto the crowd below — in the process setting a tree ablaze inside the museum grounds. Plainclothes police at the building entrances prevented anti-Mubarak protesters from storming up to stop them.
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The protesters accused Mubarak's regime of unleashing a force of paid thugs and plainclothes police to crush their unprecedented 9-day-old movement demanding his ouster, a day after the 82-year-old president refused to step down. They showed off police ID badges they said were wrested off their attackers.
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Paid attackers possibly?
 
[quote name='Clak']This is getting pretty bad, never mind attacks from the police or army, attacks from Mubarak's supporters are happening now.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110202/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_egypt


Paid attackers possibly?[/QUOTE]
Several of the pro-Mubarak crowd approached a CNN reporter and told him they were employees of the government run oil company and that they were ordered to go out there. There have also been police ID's found on some of them who have been taken prisoner.

They believe that some of the rest are either criminals from local gangs or prisoners who were released from the jails.
 
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