Flight 77?

neudog

neudog

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So I've seen the footage many times since 9/11 of Flight 77 supposedly crashing into the pentagon and I wanted to get members opinions on it. IMHO I believe that Flight 77 never crashed into the Pentagon and it was either an unmanned droneship or what I fear most a missile fired on the Pentagon. Now I voted for Bush and served in the military, but a lie is a lie and I feel like many times before the government is covering something up. Watch the footage closely in the link and do further research and you will see that there is no way that an aircraft the size of Flight 77 penetrated the Pentagon.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/us/terrorism
 
People like you and many others that believe in this whole government 'conspiracy' sicken me. The episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit put it best "To believe that daddy went missing on purpose while his son and daughter are grieving, is a slap in the face of the families that lost someone that day".
 
Two words.

Loose Change

How anybody can believe 9/11 wasn't orchestrated by the government after watching that is beyond me. Ever notice that it's near impossible to place phone calls at the altitude Flight 93 was at, or that Flight 93 landed safely at an airport, which was reported by CNN? I'll say I believe 9/11 happened, I just don't believe who they told me did it did it.

And why no video released from the Pentagon, only pictures?

How did they demolish building 7 of WTC without prior planning? How did WTC, built in the 70's, fall from a 1 hour fire when older buildings have survived 19 hour fires? Jet fuel can't burn at the temperatures required to melt steel, not to mention all the n ews reports of explosions being heard and bombs going off.

Explain the put options put on the stock of the airlines 5 days before 9/11, or the huge insurance policy that specifically covered terrorism.

Guess who ran security at the WTC? Marvin Bush
 
[quote name='Ugamer_X']9/11 conspiracy theories are teh ha-ha's.

This should go into the vs. forum by the way.[/QUOTE]

Sorry about that:) Mods feel free to move.

[quote name='ph33r m3']People like you and many others that believe in this whole government 'conspiracy' sicken me. The episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit put it best "To believe that daddy went missing on purpose while his son and daughter are grieving, is a slap in the face of the families that lost someone that day".[/QUOTE]

I'm not an avid believer of conspiracies, the only other thing that I feel the government is hiding is info on the Kennedy case. Now you can actually believe from the security footage and other info from the provided link, that a 757 flew into the Pentagon.

http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/pentagon.htm

You're probably a firm believer we should still be in Iraq. Like I said I served in the military and was fortunate to be able to go to Iraq. I feel that Bush took the wrong aproach using the WMD BS, but I do believe that the regime led by Hussein needed to be removed.

Also I enjoy Penn & Teller's show as much as the next person, but don't use it as a basis to defend your argument. If I sicken you that much at least have the factual info to back your position.
 
[quote name='neudog']Sorry about that:) Mods feel free to move.



I'm not an avid believer of conspiracies, the only other thing that I feel the government is hiding is info on the Kennedy case. Now you can actually believe from the security footage and other info from the provided link, that a 757 flew into the Pentagon.

http://www.freedomfiles.org/war/pentagon.htm

You're probably a firm believer we should still be in Iraq. Like I said I served in the military and was fortunate to be able to go to Iraq. I feel that Bush took the wrong aproach using the WMD BS, but I do believe that the regime led by Hussein needed to be removed.

Also I enjoy Penn & Teller's show as much as the next person, but don't use it as a basis to defend your argument. If I sicken you that much at least have the factual info to back your position.[/quote]

I'm not a firm believer we should be in Iraq, i'd hope all the troops would be able to come back, problem with al Queda who is at the front of terrorism. How would I back up fact that the 9/11 attack really happened? couldn't be that video you posted...or the damage done to the pentagon. Oh no, not that.
 
[quote name='ph33r m3']or the damage done to the pentagon. Oh no, not that.[/QUOTE]Big plane, small hole, no plane engines or any large parts found. Seem fishy to you?

I really urge everybody to look up Loose Change on Google Video.
 
[quote name='ph33r m3']People like you and many others that believe in this whole government 'conspiracy' sicken me. The episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit put it best "To believe that daddy went missing on purpose while his son and daughter are grieving, is a slap in the face of the families that lost someone that day".[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's a good point. Its an absolute disservice to all who died on that day to simply say it was a hoax conspiracy and everyone simply got off the plane.
 
[quote name='RedvsBlue']Yeah, that's a good point. Its an absolute disservice to all who died on that day to simply say it was a hoax conspiracy and everyone simply got off the plane.[/QUOTE]

I know people died in the Pentagon and obviously people died in flight 77. My question to you who believe a 757 crashed is where flight 77 appears in any photos pre-crash or for that matter in post-crash clean-up. Obviously flight 77 crashed because the FAA does not disavow this, but regardless of you throwing around your conspiracy jargon show me factual images of a engine, fuselage, something. I've been to D.C. and know that the speed, thow destructive when crashing, would not cause the entire plane to disentegrate. One other thing to all that think flight 77 did hit the pentagon, what do you see in the security footage. No tap dancing, just a simple answer. Do you see a plane or something else?
 
[quote name='neudog']I know people died in the Pentagon and obviously people died in flight 77. My question to you who believe a 757 crashed is where flight 77 appears in any photos pre-crash or for that matter in post-crash clean-up. Obviously flight 77 crashed because the FAA does not disavow this, but regardless of you throwing around your conspiracy jargon show me factual images of a engine, fuselage, something. I've been to D.C. and know that the speed, thow destructive when crashing, would not cause the entire plane to disentegrate. One other thing to all that think flight 77 did hit the pentagon, what do you see in the security footage. No tap dancing, just a simple answer. Do you see a plane or something else?[/QUOTE]

Oh I'm sorry I didn't realize you were an airplane crash expert with the NTSB. Do you get to see a lot of plane crashes?

Without being an expert do you have any idea how much energy would have been expended with a 100 ton jet hitting the ground at about 500 mph? Here's a hint, its a lot.
 
[quote name='RedvsBlue']Oh I'm sorry I didn't realize you were an airplane crash expert with the NTSB. Do you get to see a lot of plane crashes?

Without being an expert do you have any idea how much energy would have been expended with a 100 ton jet hitting the ground at about 500 mph? Here's a hint, its a lot.[/QUOTE]

There you go tap dancing, can you not read. I never said I'm an expert, but as you can see from a previous link I added there would be more damage and some evidence. Did you see a plane? I'm guessing not since your counter point is to make derogatory statements that hold no value. I've supplied links and images to reinforce my opinion, which that is all it is. I simply am interested in factual and mature responses, not "u dont fy big pane meen man, so how u no if pane cashed". I'm not devaluing lives I'm aware that innocent people lost their lives I was just hoping that intellectual people/members unlike yourself could provide a counter opinion with some factual backing.

Maybe you could have included info like the following:

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentagon/index.html
 
[quote name='neudog']There you go tap dancing, can you not read. I never said I'm an expert, but as you can see from a previous link I added there would be more damage and some evidence. Did you see a plane? I'm guessing not since your counter point is to make derogatory statements that hold no value. I've supplied links and images to reinforce my opinion, which that is all it is. I simply am interested in factual and mature responses, not "u dont fy big pane meen man, so how u no if pane cashed". I'm not devaluing lives I'm aware that innocent people lost their lives I was just hoping that intellectual people/members unlike yourself could provide a counter opinion with some factual backing.[/QUOTE]

Ok, so you want a "mature response" then here it is. The plane was moving at 500 mph which not only caused most wreckage to disintegrate but it also meant that a security camera could not capture a clear image of it because even the best security cameras only capture 30 frames per second.

As far as my other point, I stand by it. How can you possibly know what a plane crash is supposed to look like when, in all actuality, you've probably never seen one in person.
 
THIS

[quote name='ph33r m3']People like you and many others that believe in this whole government 'conspiracy' sicken me. The episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit put it best "To believe that daddy went missing on purpose while his son and daughter are grieving, is a slap in the face of the families that lost someone that day".[/QUOTE]

AND THIS

[quote name='Quillion']I don't know how many times I'll have to post this for the nutjobs that will believe any conspiracy theory, but read.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html

Believe me, if the crazies at AboveTopSecret don't think it's a conspiracy, then it couldn't be.[/QUOTE]

Should be all you fucking need to know that a plane hit the Pentagon on 9/11. Conspiracy theorists twist so much of these facts its not even funny. If it was a conspiracy where are all these passengers? Guantanamo Bay? Common sense people, common sense.
 
[quote name='darkmere']http://www.911inplanesite.com/

for fun do a google search on operation northwoods.[/QUOTE]

In the aftermath, it was reported by media sources that a giant 100 ft. crater was plowed into the front lawn of the Pentagon as the result of a powerful airliner crash?
Click to expand...

:rofl:
Using the same logic as these conspiracy theorists, Al Gore won the 2000 election. I mean the media initially called him as the winner afterall... :roll:

[quote name='slimpip']

Should be all you fucking need to know that a plane hit the Pentagon on 9/11. Conspiracy theorists twist so much of these facts its not even funny. If it was a conspiracy where are all these passengers? Guantanamo Bay? Common sense people, common sense.[/QUOTE]

Ahh but unfortunately the terms common sense and conspiracy theory are mutually exclusive.
 
There was a video I watched on google videos called "loose change 2nd edition"... and dang. it brings up alot of facts from a ton of respectable sources about 9/11. I hate conspiracy theories, but when people can show alot of facts withought completely making them up (hello there michael moore!), I can sort of respect that opinion. Now I don't really know what to believe. I always wondered why a gigantic skyscraper would fall straight down and not break off sideways or anything. Especially since they over-built the thing to withstand bombings/plane crashes etc.

But still, i dont know.
 
[quote name='projecteightysix']There was a video I watched on google videos called "loose change 2nd edition"... and dang. it brings up alot of facts from a ton of respectable sources about 9/11. I hate conspiracy theories, but when people can show alot of facts withought completely making them up (hello there michael moore!), I can sort of respect that opinion. Now I don't really know what to believe. I always wondered why a gigantic skyscraper would fall straight down and not break off sideways or anything. Especially since they over-built the thing to withstand bombings/plane crashes etc.

But still, i dont know.[/QUOTE]

It didn't fall straight down, hence the collateral damage to surrounding buildings.
 
[quote name='neudog']IMHO I believe that Flight 77 never crashed into the Pentagon and it was either an unmanned droneship or what I fear most a missile fired on the Pentagon.[/quote]

Moved to the VS forum.

How can you think that when 60 bodies were found that matched the passenger list for the flight?

The evidence is irrefutable, and that above top secret website gives excellent examples.
 
I'm not sure what to think about Flight 77. The biggest problem I've always had with 9/11 was with how quickly the twin towers collapsed after being impacted. From everything I have read it doesn't make any sense that structures such as those could be so weak and go down so fast. From video after the attacks it would appear that the fires within the buildings had mostly burnt out and yet they still fell.

Another thing that no one likes to talk about is the situation with WTC building 7. The then-owner(of 7 and the twin towers) admitted that it was taken down in a controlled demolition on a PBS documentary. Looking at the collapse makes this fact seem pretty obvious anyway. Whether or not the entire event was a conspiracy or our government had any prior knowledge, facts such as this one can't be ignored.
 
[quote name='RedvsBlue']:rofl:
Using the same logic as these conspiracy theorists, Al Gore won the 2000 election. I mean the media initially called him as the winner afterall... :roll:



Ahh but unfortunately the terms common sense and conspiracy theory are mutually exclusive.[/QUOTE]
i don't know what to believe. i want to believe the government wouldn't lie to the world, but the fact that the people in control have stood to make billions of dollars by reaping the benefits of terrorism and the subsequent war is sickening. it would be nice if they released the video footage of the pentagon crash, from all the angles it was taken at, and not just 5 random frames.

operation northwoods, while never executed, does seem like an eerily similar plan to 9/11 IF 9/11 was orchestrated by the government. maybe it's just a bad coincidence.

i'm sorry, i was mistaking america for being a country founded on the idea one could openly question and criticize the government.
 
[quote name='fart_bubble']I think you're retarded if you think that this administration could hide an elephant that big.[/QUOTE]


Seconded.

The abovetopsecret site blows away the 'a plane never hit the pentagon' conspiracy theories, besides the guy who you're ultimatley blaming this on almost got taken out by a pretzel.
 
These people bringing up these conspiracy theories have one purpose - to make a shiit load of money from suckers on their books and videotapes.
 
[quote name='darkmere']i don't know what to believe. i want to believe the government wouldn't lie to the world, but the fact that the people in control have stood to make billions of dollars by reaping the benefits of terrorism and the subsequent war is sickening. it would be nice if they released the video footage of the pentagon crash, from all the angles it was taken at, and not just 5 random frames.

operation northwoods, while never executed, does seem like an eerily similar plan to 9/11 IF 9/11 was orchestrated by the government. maybe it's just a bad coincidence.

i'm sorry, i was mistaking america for being a country founded on the idea one could openly question and criticize the government.[/QUOTE]

How have they stood to make millions?
 
[quote name='RedvsBlue']How have they stood to make millions?[/QUOTE]

He's referring to companies like halliburton.
 
[quote name='E-Z-B']He's referring to companies like halliburton.[/QUOTE]

In that case make it billions.
 
[quote name='RedvsBlue']How have they stood to make millions?[/QUOTE]
besides halliburton (which has made an estimated $13 billion from iraqi contracts and seen their stock rise significantly in value), there's the incredible luck of larry silverstein (who put up $14 million of his own to lease the buildings and just 7 weeks later claim billions in insurance against acts of terrorism...all this despite the fact that he was outbid by $50 million by vornado realty which withdrew their bid at the last minute.) let's not forget the insider trading that went on just before the attacks, possibly worth in excess of $100 million.
 
[quote name='darkmere']besides halliburton (which has made an estimated $13 billion from iraqi contracts and seen their stock rise significantly in value), there's the incredible luck of larry silverstein (who put up $14 million of his own to lease the buildings and just 7 weeks later claim billions in insurance against acts of terrorism...all this despite the fact that he was outbid by $50 million by vornado realty which withdrew their bid at the last minute.) let's not forget the insider trading that went on just before the attacks, possibly worth in excess of $100 million.[/quote]

I remember seeing a report somewhere years ago that had traced the Put options to overseas investors (read Osama bin Laden). I wish I could find it.

I doubt Halliburton had a hand in the 9/11 attacks, becuase the Iraq war would have happened anyway, that they get all the big contracts.

Silverstein? A jew working with muslim fundamentalists? Anyway, investors routinely put up millions of dollars on property, especially property that is always full. Deals are always falling through, and most importantly, the attacks have not been good for the skyscraper real estate market. I'll bet his financial fortunes have somewhat decreased.
 
[quote name='Quillion']Silverstein? A jew working with muslim fundamentalists?[/QUOTE]
IF, and again i say IF the attacks were at all known, planned, or executed by the government (as the consiracy theories state), then who says there were even really muslim fundamentalists. there were never any bodies found (we are told they were incinerated), yet a passport miraculously made it unscathed.

like i said, i don't know what parts to believe, but i think there is information we don't know. whether the government is withholding information and why is another question. why release 5 single frames of the pentagon when the original source was a video camera? what's the harm in releasing the full video to the public?
 
[quote name='E-Z-B']These people bringing up these conspiracy theories have one purpose - to make a shiit load of money from suckers on their books and videotapes.[/QUOTE]

QFT. Anyone who buys into these insane 9/11 conspiracy theories is a complete and total idiot.
 
[quote name='AYATOLA']people wouldn't buy into those theories if logical answers were given to their questions.

LOL, its as if we are back to that other thread El.

http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93633[/QUOTE]

Why give logical answers to things that are often illogical questions. Then when you do answer a conspiracy nut logically it's either no response or a denial that the proof you gave them was true. So why answer a question if the the answer just goes ignored. Take the current debate over Flight 77, early on many people (not necessarily in this thread but in general) said there was not physical evidence of a plane crash there, they were shown documented pictures saying otherwise and they in turn either come out to say nothing or somehow try to refute said evidence again by somehow changing their argument to fit their version. When speaking to a real conspiracy theorist there is no real "right" answer.
 
[quote name='Duo_Maxwell']Why give logical answers to things that are often illogical questions. Then when you do answer a conspiracy nut logically it's either no response or a denial that the proof you gave them was true. So why answer a question if the the answer just goes ignored. Take the current debate over Flight 77, early on many people (not necessarily in this thread but in general) said there was not physical evidence of a plane crash there, they were shown documented pictures saying otherwise and they in turn either come out to say nothing or somehow try to refute said evidence again by somehow changing their argument to fit their version. When speaking to a real conspiracy theorist there is no real "right" answer.[/QUOTE]

Yep, no matter how much evidence you throw at them, its never enough. They would need to be sitting on the lawn of the pentagon as the jet flew over in order to believe. Then again, there's still people who think the towers weren't actually hit by "real" passanger jets but rather remote control cargo jets and they even saw them hit. Oh well, if it makes them feel better to come up with some wild conspiracy theory then let 'em.
 
[quote name='camoor']Why do you need conspiracy theories when Bush and the executive branch are openly trampling all over congress and the legislative branch.[/QUOTE]


Exactly. A real conspiracy that Americans should be worked up over is the elimination of the 4th Ammendment to the U.S. Constitution and elimination of "checks and balances" with power.
 
[quote name='E-Z-B']Exactly. A real conspiracy that Americans should be worked up over is the elimination of the 4th Ammendment to the U.S. Constitution and elimination of "checks and balances" with power.[/QUOTE]

Damn right!
 
[quote name='Duo_Maxwell']Why give logical answers to things that are often illogical questions. Then when you do answer a conspiracy nut logically it's either no response or a denial that the proof you gave them was true. So why answer a question if the the answer just goes ignored. Take the current debate over Flight 77, early on many people (not necessarily in this thread but in general) said there was not physical evidence of a plane crash there, they were shown documented pictures saying otherwise and they in turn either come out to say nothing or somehow try to refute said evidence again by somehow changing their argument to fit their version. When speaking to a real conspiracy theorist there is no real "right" answer.[/quote]
[FONT=&quot]Why answer the question?

Simple

So more people won't buy into the theory. Imagine how much history (both recent and not so current) could have changed if peoples/individuals question's would have been answered.
 [/FONT]
For how long did the general populous believe the world was flat? It was an "idiotic" theory to suggest the world was round. Look where we are now.
 [FONT=&quot]
When actions only fuel a theory it must be put to rest or otherwise a theory can become a generally accepted fact, ex: da vinci code.

On a side note:

Why must all the evidence or film of the object in question hitting the pentagon, be "classified"? The world knows it was hit and I doubt that it is a question of national security. Just further points out how suspicious actions lead to suspicion and formulating of a supposed truth .
[/FONT]
 
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