"For reasons that are vague at best..."

This guy's a member of the Campaign For Liberty; if anybody should know that the "grassroots" tea party movement isn't the decades-long libertarian movement that largely threw its support behind Ron Paul's presidential campaign in 2007-2008, that it's been co-opted and hijacked by establishment Republicans, it's him. His lack of pointed criticism of Obama is puzzling. What, he can't read Greenwald, and at least parrot some of his criticisms, instead of merely saying "... just like Bush!"? It's lazy, and it's not going to sway anybody's opinion. 99% of mainstream America is going to either ignore "... just like Bush," or not understand what those parallels are/back the next idiot who claims to be against Obama. If ever there has been a recipe for failure, surely, this is it.

Libertarians f'd up by letting those jerkoffs into their gameplan (Glenn Beck called Ron Paul supporters terrorists... and now he's Lt. Libertarian? Don't think so). At least when the Code Pink crowd and libertarians team up for a couple of issues, they shake hands and part ways when it's over; there's no illusion of forming some sort of long-lasting, take-over style coalition.
 
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Ron Paul showed up on GB's show to talk about freedom and the constitution etc. Seems like he cares more about the idea then who gets credit for it, cause he didn't seem annoyed at Glenn for hijacking his movement.
 
He won't say much about it because he's never really been overtly confrontational; additionally, he didn't create the libertarian movement, so it's not his to defend. He's simply a pretty good representative for it.

The current tea party movement now headed by Beck, Limbaugh, et al bears little resemblance to the political interests of many libertarian-minded people. Non-interventionist foreign policy, rule of law, civil liberties, and reason have been shoved aside in favor of "OBAMA! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE" "TAXES! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!" "CONSTITUTION! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!". This is a repeat of what the Republican party went through in the 90s, when jackasses like Sen. John Ashcroft opposed wiretapping when Clinton proposed it under the guise of the Constitution, then when in power completely gutted it by slamming through the "PATRIOT" Act.

The ideas of freedom and constitution being promoted now by Fox News are representative of nothing but hot air and empty rhetoric; as proven before, as will be proven again. I'd rather not get the credit for the movement as it is.

All of that said, I'm maintaining the slightest of hope that the current movement will break free from Fox News and come around to several more of the issues that are more typical of libertarian circles.
 
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[quote name='Feeding the Abscess']Non-interventionist foreign policy, rule of law, civil liberties, and reason have been shoved aside in favor of "OBAMA! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE" "TAXES! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!" "CONSTITUTION! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!".[/QUOTE]

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/nations_morons_march_on_washington

That's the thing, though, as you point out: by being appropriated by the Tea Party, it's already been eaten alive by mainstream Republican politics. Shouting and braying and screaming about socialism and whatever else is far more exciting than thoughtfully considering that Medicare Part D was wholly favored by Republicans and 100% deficit financed, yet the health care reform they spent all year stalling and assailing (largely on grounds of fiscal irresponsibility) brings $0 to the deficit, based on CBO analysis.

Libertarians who think that this Tea Party stuff is going to help them don't see that they're Charlie Brown, and Glenn Beck is Lucy holding the football on the other end of the field. 2000-2008 involved the same pattern for progressive/ultraliberal persons, like myself, who expected genuine reform at some point, a return to pre-Regan marginal tax rates for the wealthy, health care reform that it meaningful and not a legislative profit bump for the health care industries, etc. We on the far left can tell you that if you think any "Tea Party" member is going to bring you what you want (reasoned Libertarian policies), you're not looking at history.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']That's the thing, though, as you point out: by being appropriated by the Tea Party, it's already been eaten alive by mainstream Republican politics. Shouting and braying and screaming about socialism and whatever else is far more exciting than thoughtfully considering that Medicare Part D was wholly favored by Republicans and 100% deficit financed, yet the health care reform they spent all year stalling and assailing (largely on grounds of fiscal irresponsibility) brings $0 to the deficit, based on CBO analysis.[/QUOTE]

You bet your ass they're scheming like hell to co-opt the tea party movement; a recent poll found that more people would vote for a generic "Tea Party" candidate than a Republican one, which has to be alarming to the Republican establishment.

While you are absolutely correct about Medicare Part D, which was all about GOP electioneering and was grossly irresponsible on its face, you're wrong about the current health-care bills. The only way they reduce the deficit or are deficit-neutral is through fantasy accounting techniques, some of them more farcical than Enron's. These techniques begin with counting five years of expenses versus 10 years of revenues, then continue on with unbelievable assumptions that Congress will cut $500 billion from Medicare, take things like the doc fix off the books because it would break the bank, and then various other methods of disguising the true cost of a bill that will ensure (1) not everyone will be covered; and (2) premiums will increase faster than previously expected.
 
I was encouraged by that elprincipe, when I read about that. It's great that they don't realize the bind they're in. Oh, sweet, they're ultra conservative and they don't embrace any kind of moderation!

Yeah, but are they electable? Probably not. The tea party ultra conservative candidate won't attract moderates.

Regardless, it's fun watching the Republican party purging itself. It'll be interesting to see what happens in 2010.
 
^ What about the United States? Have there been a lot of viable third party candidates? I'm curious if any of them actually have found a winning strategy.
 
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[quote name='mykevermin']^ Jean Marie Le Pen.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.

When the tea party libertarians can stand up and tell the religious conservatives to fuck off, I'll listen. Until then, they're faux-libertarian trash that doesn't actually want freedom, just power.
 
[quote name='IRHari']^ What about the United States? Have there been a lot of viable third party candidates? I'm curious if any of them actually have found a winning strategy.[/QUOTE]

There have been viable candidates, but usually only once every several elections. The two most recent have been John Anderson in 1980 and Ross Perot in 1992 (much moreso than 1996). Perot in 1992 even polled ahead of Bush I and Clinton at first, but withdrew his candidacy before changing his mind again and deciding to run. If not for that flip-flop of sorts, he may have had a chance to win.

At this point, I think independent candidates have a better chance than they've had for quite some time. The only thing lower than the approval rating of the Democratic Party is that of the Republican Party, and the only thing lower than that is the approval rating of Congress as a whole. Independents hate both more than ever, and already (almost a year before the next election) half of people plan to vote against their incumbent members of Congress (this will get worse as Congress fucks up 2010 as it did 2009, 2008, 2007, etc etc).

What I really hope is that the major parties are not able to assimilate potential independent candidates or co-opt the anger of those who have been screwed by the government over the past few years. It would be a sad thing if the Democrats were thrown out of power only to restore the Republicans back to their pre-2006 corrupt and spendthrift ways (let's face it, they haven't changed, as much as they will swear they've given it up). My dream is enough independents to tip the balance of power in the House.
 
Perot's polling power in 1992 before he withdrew is empirical evidence that image matters and ideas can be left in the trash. "Vapid" doesn't even begin to describe his platform.
 
Yeah he might have been one of the reasons why Clinton won in 1992 (the Nader factor). Regardless, until these people actually win I won't be able to respect them.

My point being that instead of being an independent candidate, they're creating a 3rd party movement but its on the extreme fringe of the Repub party. I don't see why moderates would vote for someone like that because...well...they're moderates. Knawimsayin?
 
[quote name='IRHari']Yeah he might have been one of the reasons why Clinton won in 1992 (the Nader factor). Regardless, until these people actually win I won't be able to respect them.[/QUOTE]

Hell yeah! Only winners deserve respect! Whoo! Hate the losers!
 
I don't hate the losers, I just don't have as much respect for them as I do for the winners. People may not have respect for Al Gore, but they certainly don't hate him like you do.
 
I hate Al Gore? Good to know, I suppose.

I give more respect to a loser who knew he/she wasn't going to win, but gave it his/her all and stood up for what he/she believed in vs. any winning candidate that sells out or lies for a few votes.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Perot's polling power in 1992 before he withdrew is empirical evidence that image matters and ideas can be left in the trash. "Vapid" doesn't even begin to describe his platform.[/QUOTE]

He didn't have much of a platform because it was very, very early in the game when he got out. The reason he garnered the initial interest/support at the levels he did was because of his focus on the issue of deficits and debt (promising a businesslike audit/accounting of government), something both parties were ignoring back then and something they're paying lip service to right now at best.
 
[quote name='IRHari']My point being that instead of being an independent candidate, they're creating a 3rd party movement but its on the extreme fringe of the Repub party. I don't see why moderates would vote for someone like that because...well...they're moderates. Knawimsayin?[/QUOTE]

Being a moderate on many issues, I do know what you're saying. People going around with signs saying "Show me the BIRTH CERTIFICATE!!1!1!!" do not attract those of us who are rational. However, independents are disgusted by the current political environment and by attempts (knowing or unknowing) in Washington to bankrupt our country, even moreso than Republicans (whose leaders are attempting to fake such anger).
 
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