France Burning: 6th Straight Night of Urban Unrest

PittsburghAfterDark

CAGiversary!
051102_paris_riots_hmed_4a.hmedium.jpg


Cars torched as Paris suburb riots spread

Youth unrest causes growing strains within French government

Updated: 6:48 a.m. ET Nov. 2, 2005

PARIS - Dozens of vehicles were set ablaze in a sixth night of rioting in poor Paris suburbs, officials said on Wednesday, as youth unrest caused mounting strains within France’s conservative government.

A heavy police presence kept a tense order in Clichy-sous-Bois, where the clashes broke out last week after two teenagers of African origin were electrocuted while apparently fleeing the police.

But the street fighting spread to other parts of the poor suburbs ringing the eastern side of the capital, police said. A total of 34 people were detained by police overnight, Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy told Europe 1 radio.

Strains appear within government
Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin urged a return to calm on Tuesday evening after meeting families of the two youths along with Sarkozy, his main political rival now under heavy fire for his tough line against the rioters.

Squabbling broke out within Villepin’s government when Equal Opportunities Minister Azouz Begag openly criticized Sarkozy for calling the protesting youths “scum.”

“I talk with real words,” Sarkozy fired back in an interview in the daily Le Parisien. “When someone shoots at policemen, he’s not just a ‘youth’, he’s a lout, full stop.”

Villepin delayed for several hours his planned departure for for a visit to Canada on Wednesday, officials said, and French media reported President Jacques Chirac was expected to make a statement about the unrest at a cabinet meeting on Wednesday.

Tear gas attack

The unrest in the eastern suburbs, heavily populated by North African and black African minorities, was sparked by youths’ frustration at their failure to get jobs and recognition in French society.

A tear gas attack on a mosque further inflamed emotions.

Villepin and Sarkozy are locked in an increasingly tense battle to lead the right in the 2007 presidential election.

The opposition Socialists have denounced Sarkozy’s policies.

“Perhaps it is up to the prime minister to step in, to put slightly to one side this excited interior minister,” Socialist Party National Secretary Malek Boutih told i-television.

Sarkozy promised on Monday to put more police on the streets as part of his “zero tolerance” policy toward violence.

The Clichy unrest was the latest in a series of incidents in the Paris suburbs that have attracted the attention of Sarkozy and become the target of his vow to get tough on crime.

In June, an 11-year-old boy was killed by a stray bullet in the northern area of La Courneuve. The eastern suburb of Vitry-sur-Seine made headlines in 2002 when a 17-year-old girl was set alight by an 18-year-old boy.

Link

Hmmm socialist country? High unemployment? Discontented youth? Wonder why those things all go together like bacon, eggs and toast.

Oh, interestingly enough, Reuters neglects to mention that the rioters are predominantly Muslims refusing to integrate into French society.

France Is Burning

Items About Areas That Could Break Out Into War
November 1, 2005: France is burning. For most of the last week, there have been nasty riots in the Parisian suburb of St Denis, complete with fires and many casualties. This area is home to about 500,000 Moslems. Many largely Moslem suburbs of Paris, and other large cities, have become no-go zones for the police, and anyone who is not of Middle Eastern origin. Over the last three decades, generous social benefits and immigration policies have left France with a Moslem population of some five million (about eight percent of the population.) High rise housing for them was built on the outskirts of major cities. Most of these Moslems did not try to assimilate, and by maintaining their old country culture and language, they made it more difficult for their kids to get jobs. Among the old school customs practiced is attacking, and even murdering, girls who do not conform to a “Moslem” style of behavior. While jobs may be lacking, crime and social welfare payments are not. So people can live without jobs, and make a little extra with some crime on the side. But when you have a lot of people participating in, or just condoning, criminal behavior, you have a very dangerous place for outsiders. Officially, the government condemns this sort of “profiling,” but a look at crime statistics shows that high rates of robbery, murder and rape tend to coincide with Moslem areas. There are unofficial maps on the Internet, where French citizens can check about where not to get lost the next time they go for a drive.

Meanwhile, the high crime rates in the Moslem neighborhoods has been spilling over into non-Moslem areas, and there has been a major outbreak of anti-Semitic attacks on Jews, and Jewish targets (synagogues, cemeteries, Etc.). It’s not only become embarrassing for the government, but it’s become a political issue. So the Interior Ministry has established special police units to try and reduce the crime rate in the Moslem areas. That has led to the recent rioting, arson, injuries, and advice by French traditionalists to just ignore the French Moslems. Leave them alone. Ignore them. Just like France has been doing for decades. Let the counter-terrorism police take care of any hotheads. But for the moment, the Interior Ministry is run by law-and-order types, and they are determined to at least own the streets in Moslem areas. So France burns.

Link

How long before the French go the Dutch route and decide that their liberalism must be tempered by crackdowns on illegal Muslim immigration and strict limits on legal immigration?

You're going to see this happen in other European cities with sizable Muslim populations. They don't want to confirm to their host countries society. They want the host country to confirm to their standards and just look at what those standards are.

The trouble is only spreading in France. 9 towns now have significant Muslim rioting and unrest.

Unrest spreads to nine French towns

Rioting continues in suburban Paris over death of two teens (2:10)

PARIS, France (AP) -- Unrest spread across troubled suburbs around Paris in a sixth night of violence as police clashed with angry youths and scores of vehicles were torched in at least nine towns, local officials said.

Police in riot gear fired rubber bullets late Tuesday at advancing gangs of youths in Aulnay-sous-Bois -- one of the worst-hit suburbs -- where 15 cars were burned, according to officials in the Seine-Saint-Denis region.

Youths lobbed Molotov cocktails at an annex to the town hall and threw stones at the firehouse. It was not immediately clear whether there were injuries from the clashes.

Four people were arrested for throwing stones at police in nearby Bondy where 14 cars were burned, the prefecture said. A fire engulfed a carpet store, but it was not immediately clear whether the blaze was linked to the suburban unrest.

Officials gave an initial count of 69 vehicles torched in nine suburbs across the Seine-Saint-Denis region that arcs Paris on the north and northeast.

The area, home mainly to families of immigrant origin, often from Muslim North Africa, is marked by soaring unemployment and delinquency. Anger and despair thrive in the tall cinder-block towers and long "bars" that typically make up housing projects in France.

No trouble was immediately reported in Clichy-sous-Bois, where rioting began Thursday following the accidental deaths of two teenagers hiding to escape police in a power substation.

They were electrocuted while trying to hide from the police. A third was injured. Officials have said police were not pursuing the boys, aged 15 and 17.

Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin met Tuesday with the parents of the three families, promising a full investigation of the deaths and insisting on "the need to restore calm," the prime minister's office said.

Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy -- blamed by many for fanning the violence with tough talk and harsh tactics -- met Tuesday night in Paris with youths and officials from Clichy-sous-Bois in a bid to cap days of rioting. But the unrest spread even as they met. Sarkozy recently referred to the troublemakers as "scum" and "riffraff."

An Associated Press Television news team witnessed confrontations between about 20 police and 40 youths in Aulnay-sous-Bois with police firing tear gas and rubber bullets.

Officials said that "small, very mobile gangs" were harassing police and setting fires to garbage cans and vehicles throughout the region.

France-Info radio said some 150 blazes were reported in garbage bins, cars and buildings across Seine-Saint-Denis. The unrest highlighted the division between France's big cities and their poor satellites.

Tension had mounted throughout Tuesday after young men torched cars, garbage bins and even a primary school 24 hours earlier. Scores of cars were reported burned Monday night in Clichy-sous-Bois and 13 people were jailed.

Youths set two rooms of a primary school in Sevran on fire Monday along with several cars, Mayor Stephane Gatignon said in a statement.

Link
 
Wow, muslims and socialists are at odds with each other. This must be PAD's equivalent of a personally made "Vivid Video" film for him.

Truthfully, saying that Muslims are "refusing to integrate" is an interesting approach. IIRC, the country passed legislation that would prevent people (perhaps not all citizens; students perhaps?) from wearing overt religious garb. In this case, it directly conflicted with the need for Muslim women to wear a burka, and caused a great deal of strain, as, in order to remain religiously proper, it became necessary to break the law. So, to focus on Muslims as the sole agents who are refusing to integrate ignores the overt repression of religious expression that France imposed on them.

While religion might be one key factor, don't forget race as well. With that in mind, does it bother you how much the United States and France resemble each other in having overrepresentation of minorities in unemployed and impoverished classes? Perhaps Bush and Chirac (the article notes another PM above; when the hell did Chirac get voted out?) could share a nice cognac over this testament to like-mindedness.
 
The conservative leaders pass laws that repress civil rights and when it goes too far the people riot.

Same thing is happening in America, except for the fact that we are too fat and lazy to riot.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']The conservative leaders pass laws that repress civil rights and when it goes too far the people riot.

Same thing is happening in America, except for the fact that we are too fat and lazy to riot.[/QUOTE]

Man, this is great news. Now when nativity scenes are removed, cross war memorials are removed from public squares, public prayer is outlawed, Christmas celebrations changed to "holiday observances", school teachers forced to remove visible crosses from their persons and Christians who wish to be judges are persecuted we can take to the streets and riot.

Thanks for the heads up Quackzilla.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Man, this is great news. Now when nativity scenes are removed, cross war memorials are removed from public squares, public prayer is outlawed, Christmas celebrations changed to "holiday observances", school teachers forced to remove visible crosses from their persons and Christians who wish to be judges are persecuted we can take to the streets and riot.

Thanks for the heads up Quackzilla.[/QUOTE]

if it means no more Rick Santorum, that's fine with me.

who is he?

http://www.spreadingsantorum.com/
 
So if the enemy of my enemy is my friend, then who do we side with: The terrorist muslims or the welfare state socialists!?!
 
Their is a lot of discrimination against them in france, fueled by similar mindsets to PAD. Many don't want to accept them

"We're not scum," says the man, "we're human beings, but we're neglected."......

His 19-year-old son is regularly stopped when out with friends - especially if they are black - by police who demand to see their ID.

"Each time he goes out he has to prove who he is," says Boubaker, "even right outside his own front door.".....

All four children are in work but their friends - again especially those who are black - have to make "hundreds" of job applications before getting an interview

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4397056.stm

"With a name like mine, I can't have a sales job." ...

The pressure group SOS Racisme regularly highlights cases of employers discarding applicants with foreign names.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399748.stm

There's also the condition of housing. There is a major shortage, and much of what is there is run down dilapitated, ignored by the landlords and the state.

Paris' most dangerous buildings and squats are to be evacuated following fires that have killed dozens of African immigrants........

More than 420 dilapidated flats, many of them fire-traps, have been identified by city authorities.

"All these squats and all these buildings have to be closed to stop these tragedies, and that's what I've asked the police commissioner to do because we're talking about human beings living in unacceptable conditions," said Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4202658.stm

The living conditions in such buildings?

There was no running water, so residents used a standpipe set up on the street for their washing and cooking.

Mains electricity had been cut off, so they made do with jerry-rigged attachments to light-fittings.

Cockroaches and rats infested the five storeys, which were connected by a rickety wooden staircase.

The ancient paintwork was full of toxic lead and in normal circumstances would have been enough itself to have the place declared uninhabitable. Naturally, there were no fire-extinguishers or fire-escapes.

Above all, there was the desperate overcrowding. Until recently, 22 families, mainly from the Ivory Coast, lived in the building.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4199320.stm

To prevent such fires from reoccuring, some immigrants have been expelled from the housing. The BBC caught up with a group of them:

Expelled last Friday from the squat they had been living in for four years a couple of streets away, 20 mainly Ivorian families are now camping in a public park.


Men sleep in one tent and the women and children are in another. There is one toilet and no showers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4230298.stm



Also, the overwhelming majority of muslims in france are moderate:

Moderates win French Muslim poll

Elections to the council representing French Muslims have been won by the traditionalist group that has dominated the body since it was set up in 2003.....

Turnout was 85%

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4111648.stm

France's Muslim ghettos, in short, are not hotbeds of separatism. Neither do they represent a clear challenge to secularism - a doctrine all national Muslim groups profess to support. ...

The great majority of Muslims resent the extremists in their midst - although many in France do not recognise this.

Yazid Sabeg, an industrialist and writer, says the French have "a real problem" with both Arabs and Islam and equate both with extremism. The most worrying aspect of the separation between French Muslims and the rest of society is that it breeds suspicion on both sides. ....

"We must ensure that the community trusts its country, and vice-versa. If you get to know me, you will get to trust me. If I get to know you, I will trust you."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4375910.stm
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Man, this is great news. Now when nativity scenes are removed, cross war memorials are removed from public squares, public prayer is outlawed, Christmas celebrations changed to "holiday observances", school teachers forced to remove visible crosses from their persons and Christians who wish to be judges are persecuted we can take to the streets and riot.

Thanks for the heads up Quackzilla.[/QUOTE]

Few things:

1. Navitiy scenes are ok as long as they're part of a display involving other religious and secular symbols. Judges that rule otherwise are probably wrong, depending on local law.

2. Public prayer outlawed? No, school-sponsored prayer is.

3. They've changed to "holiday celebrations" simply because of an increase in diversity. There's no repression of Christians going on when something like this happens, only acceptance of all.

4. A state institution can set a dress code for its employees. They can say people can't wear religious symbols as long as they don't discriminate according to religion. Or at least I bleieve this is the case.

5. People who wish to be judges and are people of faith should only be blocked if it seems their religion interferes with their ability to interpret the law.
 
[quote name='evanft']Few things:

4. A state institution can set a dress code for its employees. They can say people can't wear religious symbols as long as they don't discriminate according to religion. Or at least I bleieve this is the case.
[/QUOTE]

This is iffy depending on the judge, but, more likely than not, probably wouldn't be allowed. The reason is some religious attire or symbols are essential to daily life for some people. Notable examples being hijabs (muslim women) and turbans (sikh men). Restricting religious attire would place particular burden on certain minority groups, putting them in the unenviable position of being forced to go against their religious beliefs if they want to keep, or take, certain jobs. Particularly important is that these symbols are non disruptive, as opposed to taking time from work to pray. There would be no similar burden placed on the rest of the population.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']This is iffy depending on the judge, but, more likely than not, probably wouldn't be allowed. The reason is some religious attire or symbols are essential to daily life for some people. Notable examples being hijabs (muslim women) and turbans (sikh men). Restricting religious attire would place particular burden on certain minority groups, putting them in the unenviable position of being forced to go against their religious beliefs if they want to keep, or take, certain jobs. Particularly important is that these symbols are non disruptive, as opposed to taking time from work to pray. There would be no similar burden placed on the rest of the population.[/QUOTE]

I was merely making the point that it wouldn't be discrimination if ALL religious symbols weren't allowed.
 
I thought this was an interesting study, it shows the level of racism in france and what it can lead to:

He sent out fictitious applications for sales jobs, allegedly coming from six different sorts of applicant, ranging from a white male to a woman of North African origins, all with the same résumé.

Applicants writing from addresses known to be in "difficult" areas received half as many invitations to an interview as those from less notorious districts. The "North African" male candidate received five times fewer invitations than his white counterpart, says Prof. Amadieu.

At the same time, complains Michèle Lereste, who runs the "Green Light" social-work agency in Villetaneuse, just North of Paris, where the projects are almost entirely inhabited by immigrant-descended families, government funding cuts have closed a number of job-training institutes, "and we are finding it harder and harder to get employers to take apprentices from our district."

"The kids learn all the French republican values such as equality in school, and then they find in practice that it's an illusion,"

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1104/p06s02-woeu.html

Reality is a lot different from the idiotic rants of people like bill o'reilly, who repeatedly insist and argue (with that fox guy who always appears on his show) that the muslims want the french government out, and want to take over those areas as their own.

There's also the france's version of the uber patriotic right wingers who say "france, love it or leave it". The problem is, the very french values they were taught of equality, religious freedom (ie. not persectud unofficially) etc. are the very reasons they are so angry. France is not living up to its own ideals, it treats immigrants and french born citizens in a decidedly unfrench way.
 
bread's done
Back
Top