France Surrenders to Rioters: No, This Is Not a Joke

PittsburghAfterDark

PittsburghAfterDark

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Armistice Day call for Paris calm

Residents from riot-torn suburbs were to march in Paris on Friday - Armistice Day, marking the end of the First World War - waving white handkerchiefs to call for an end to more than two weeks of violence.

President Jacques Chirac acknowledged on Thursday that France must confront the inequalities and discrimination that fuelled the unrest.

The violence continued to abate on its 15th night on Thursday night under state-of-emergency measures and heavy policing, with fewer skirmishes and fewer cars burned, national police spokeswoman Catherine Casteran said.

Police, meanwhile, suspended eight officers, two of them suspected of beating a man detained during the riots.

"Things are calming," Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy said on Thursday on France-2 television. "But that doesn't mean it won't restart."

Chirac had kept largely silent about France's worst unrest since the 1968 student-worker uprising: in two weeks of violence, he had spoken publicly on the crisis only once.

"There is a need to respond strongly and rapidly to the undeniable problems faced by many residents of underprivileged neighbourhoods around our cities," Chirac told a news conference.

"Whatever our origins, we are all the children of the Republic, and we can all expect the same rights."

Finance Minister Thierry Breton said the government was considering relaxing restrictions on highly regulated service industries and business start-ups to help create jobs in poor suburbs, in an interview published on Friday.

"We have put a lot of money into the suburbs over the past 20 years," Breton was quoted as saying by The Financial Times. "But obviously it wasn't enough. We need to work on how to create more jobs and growth in those areas."
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Wow, that took less time than their surrender to the Germans. I think it took this long because the rioters burned down the main French white flag factory therby denying the key military resource of the country.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Wow, that took less time than their surrender to the Germans. I think it took this long because the rioters burned down the main French white flag factory therby denying the key military resource of the country.[/QUOTE]

So, um, what would you have recommended? Brutal police retaliation? Martial law? Their suspension of rights and due process? Authoritarian rule? Didn't we go to war in Iraq to remove such things?
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Wow, that took less time than their surrender to the Germans.[/QUOTE]

I believe that this time the French govt was motivated to do the right thing.

But I did find PAD's quote very funny :lol:
 
Residents from riot-torn suburbs were to march in Paris on Friday - Armistice Day, marking the end of the First World War - waving white handkerchiefs to call for an end to more than two weeks of violence.
Click to expand...

This isn't the government, it's citizens in the midst of the rioting.
 
[quote name='capitalist_mao']So, um, what would you have recommended? Brutal police retaliation? Martial law? Their suspension of rights and due process? Authoritarian rule?[/QUOTE]

Yes. Law abiding innocent bystanders should have their right to life protected from people who just decide to go out and riot. Since most people are unarmed meat sacks without any means or knowledge of how to protect themselves, the government has an obligation to do it for them to ensure the constant flow of tax revenue.

There are other ways of fighting injustice, most are much less violent. Unfortunately, the best way to put down a riot is immediate and overwhelming force. Unless, of course, you're in France where you just wait for the next liberating force to come along and rescue you.
 
The riots began when two boys died after being chased by police. Initial attempts to supress the riots escalated the situation. Brutally putting it down may solve it initially, but the deep routed issues, such as poverty, harrassment, joblessness, discrimination (a study showed those with french names who submitted applications were 5 times more likely to get a response, despite having identical resumes and education to those with middle eastern names) etc. still need to be dealt with. In many ways it's similar to race riots we had in the 60's. When overwhelming force is used to put down a riot, especially immediately (where it will appear extremely disproportionate), it often ends as a temporary solution since the issues that resulted in the riot have not been resolved. Plus you may have made examples out of innocent civilians or done it in front of a camera which often doesn't capture the whole story and can result in outrage from the non rioting population. The population isn't going anywhere, you have to figure out a way to stop it while simultaneously ensuring it will not happen again.

Also, according to fox news, bombs have been thrown at 2 mosques by non muslims.
 
[quote name='bmulligan'] Unless, of course, you're in France where you just wait for the next liberating force to come along and rescue you.[/QUOTE]

How many wars has France surrendered in?
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']... When overwhelming force is used to put down a riot, especially immediately (where it will appear extremely disproportionate), it often ends as a temporary solution since the issues that resulted in the riot have not been resolved. ...[/QUOTE]


So, the better solution is to let people destroy property and kill innocents and riot to their hearts content? Good plan.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']So, the better solution is to let people destroy property and kill innocents and riot to their hearts content? Good plan.[/QUOTE]

Well, it seems that the rioters have calmed down without using overwhelming brute force.
 
To treat the riots as violent acts completely separated from contentious racial issues is simply foolish. There ARE motivations other than collective spontaneousness that exist behind the rioting.

If rioting was merely a patholigical condition arising spontaneously in people with no other rationale, they'd happen more often, wouldn't they? Some of your fucking people's arguments and implications were done away with over 40 years ago. Jesus.

So, with that in mind, if we assume a rationale, then that rationale needs to be addressed, or guess what? MORE RIOTING!

Many of you responded to beheading videos of Americans, Britons et al. with blood-curdling cries for vengeance. This didn't affect your resolve, it emboldened you! You wanted to fight *that much harder* against terrorists.

Yet, you want to excuse Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay, and the dozen or so secret prisons that torture people as pragmatic; after all, if we punish them hard enough, THAT'LL STOP 'EM! RIGHT?

Well, consider your reaction to the beheading videos. If your brains can fathom that the same rationale exists behind them (the Americans will stop once they see this!), you will realize how futile it is to try to use violence to stop violence.

Of course, if that were completely true, war would never exist. With that in mind, if a symbolic figurehead/leadership coalition can be captured, that can quash a rebellion (for a moment, anyway). Since there is no identifiable "leadership" to the rioters in France, then, best of luck in getting this to stop by using more violence.

The obliviousness of some of you people to reality just fucking astounds me. You could be FOX News correspondents; just the other day, they had a catholic priest on, and neither he nor the anchor could understand the rationale behind the riots; their muslim identity was continually brought up, but never their race, and never any evidence of racial/religious discrimination. Evidently, the vs forum is far more well informed than they are.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']
Wow, that took less time than their surrender to the Germans. I think it took this long because the rioters burned down the main French white flag factory therby denying the key military resource of the country.

wut they needs ta do is kill dem darkies with this here gun! I'ma bout to git on over there with mah truck n' run over dem towel head camel jockeys right bout' now, know what ah mean?

[/QUOTE]

edited for clarity.
 
If I had a truck, if I talked like a red neck, if I referred to them as darkies I can tell you one thing for sure.

I wouldn't lift a finger to help the French.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']If I had a truck, if I talked like a red neck, if I referred to them as darkies I can tell you one thing for sure.

I wouldn't lift a finger to help the people of France involved in a highly complicated socio-political issue that resonates with all countries that have large immigrant populations.[/QUOTE]

edited for clarity.
 
[quote name='Sleepkyng']edited for clarity.[/QUOTE]

When that's your snappiest comeback I would like you to share a moment with someone you should easily be able to identify with.
6001.jpg
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']When that's your snappiest comeback I would like you to share a moment with someone you should easily be able to identify with.

Al Gore

as opposed to

George Bush
[/QUOTE]

edited for clarity.
 
Man, you really need to come up with something besides edited for clarity.

Your best just isn't good enough. You're sure that's the best you can do?
 
Al Gore- personally went out and rescued 270 people

George W. Bush- lamented that a former segregationists house was destroyed (while many largely black areas were wiped out), and also that his former party grounds were 10 feet under water.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']So, the better solution is to let people destroy property and kill innocents and riot to their hearts content? Good plan.[/QUOTE]

You always need to strike a balance. Stop the current hostilities without having it come back to bit you in the ass (ie. having a camera pick up a kid running with cops chasing him down and beating him). There are real issues that need to be dealt with, including police brutality and hostility against this population normally. More brutality won't do anything to solve the long term issues.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']I represent the anti-intellectual movement in America. Using a non-dialectic ideology (kinda like Marxism) I manage to deflect any empirical arguments through jingoism, slippery slope arguments and just flat out refusing to refer to irrefutable facts... now if only I could figure out what these words mean...[/QUOTE]

edited for clarity.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']When that's your snappiest comeback I would like you to share a moment with someone you should easily be able to identify with.
[/QUOTE]


yeah it sux when supreme court justices vote along their party lines and give someone the job of president. A blind parapalegic Al Gore could have done a better job running this country in the past 5 years than curious george. All of these scandals that are tied to people he put into their positions of power real show what kind of man he really is. If the democrats had a spine they would go after Bush, but they are too busy pussywillowin around. Though we shall see in 2006 elections which way the wind blows.

200303072325144hv.jpg

the brains behind the whitehouse in action
 
I forgot, bush did do something during katrina:

bushdayafterkatrina4dx.jpg


bushcake3es.jpg

Unlike Marie Antoinette he wasn't content to just say "let them eat cake", he actually set an example by eating it himself.


And, here he is in his best Nero impression, strumming while new orleans drowned:

bushguitar2gv.jpg
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Man, you really need to come up with something besides edited for clarity.

Your best just isn't good enough. You're sure that's the best you can do?[/QUOTE]


Haha, you're mad
 
[quote name='Sleepkyng']I can't understand why a people living in a socialist country can't be content with government housing, money, healthcare, food programs, free education, job training and unemployment that pays 80% of a previous position's salary. It must be because Americans and PAD are racist, xenophobic, insensitive and spiteful. They better open their cheque book and pay a few more billion Euros to terrorist youth otherwise people like me will attach many more labels to George Bush.[/QUOTE]

edited for clarity.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']edited for clarity.[/QUOTE]

:lol:

youths? how about minority groups?

hahaha, you're so stupid and narrowminded it's laughable.

get back to me when you hit that mid life crisis.

inspite of everything, you remain firm because of some sad ideal about stoicism and hard knock work ethic.

Any and everything you have, you don't deserve and you never did. No one does. Don't kid yourself, it's all benefit off of someone else's back.

how pitiful, how sad it is to cling to that.

inspite of the overwhelming socio-political issues surrounding the riots, you STILL think it's "oh restless youths are never happy, and they're also evil."

it makes me sick to think you come from a blue collar city and still remain vigilant in your petty crusade. I pity the poor and the working class that have to exist next to you. It must be horrifying to smell someone so stupid, so proud and so insanely base.
 
[quote name='Sleepkyng']



youths? how about minority groups?



hahaha, you're so stupid and narrowminded it's laughable.



get back to me when you hit that mid life crisis.



inspite of everything, you remain firm because of some sad ideal about stoicism and hard knock work ethic.



Any and everything you have, you don't deserve and you never did. No one does. Don't kid yourself, it's all benefit off of someone else's back.



how pitiful, how sad it is to cling to that.



inspite of the overwhelming socio-political issues surrounding the riots, you STILL think it's "oh restless youths are never happy, and they're also evil."



it makes me sick to think you come from a blue collar city and still remain vigilant in your petty crusade. I pity the poor and the working class that have to exist next to you. It must be horrifying to smell someone so stupid, so proud and so insanely base.[/QUOTE]



If you think PAD is radical, listen to O'reilly. You can hear him talk about the muslim rebellion in france, fueled by imams (a guest of his show said the imams haven't been doing this, and have been trying to stop the rioting, he didn't seem to pay attention) and how they want to take control of that whole area and kick france out of it. He comes off far right of even hannity, who doesn't seem to be sure what to make of the religious aspect of it (at least on hannity and colmes).

Honestly, unless I'm forgetting something, PAD has essentially espoused the more conservative view here. He hasn't slipped into his ROP mode shouting "kill the sand $$$$$$s!". This seems to be a joke to him more than anything else.
 
It's mostly a joke to me because the French brought it completely on themselves.

Before they abandoned Algeria as a colony they brought as many people from that country to France that would leave. Essentially they were more or less indentured servants in status. While obviously they had the decreed rights of any French citizen they were thrown into a de facto caste system. France decided that North Africans and these Muslims would make fine people to be gardners, day laborers, farm workers, garbage haulers and any other occupation deemed to be to low to white French citizens.

The rioters in France are second and third generation French citizens in many cases. Here, if you want to use the Mexican analogy, you are seeing a much faster assimilation of Latino immigrants. Cubans practically own and run Miami. Many children in border states of first or second generation immigrants (Legal or illegal.) are becoming educated and attending Universities. While there are some similarites the disparities between French and American models of societal immigration are canyonesque.

I hold no ill will to any immigrant that comes here and succeeds. I don't care if they're Vietnamese, Korean, Mexican, El Salvadoran, Cuban, Lebanese or Polish. Live by the rules, play by the rules and all are welcome. The French have never taken that approach, other than in words, with their immigrant population. It is a de facto caste system. The same is true in Germany and how they view and treat their sizable Turkish immigrant population.

Do I find humor in this? Only in the sense that the French government can't figure out what the hell went wrong. Who is to blame? Without sounding too condescending well.... it is France's fault. If you think they're rude to Americans imagine being non-white and religous. Forget the Muslim aspect. France is so far gone down the EDIT: secular path that all people of faith there are viewed with suspision. The country is also rife with anti-Semitisim.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find second or third generation Latinos taking up in such a fashion in Los Angeles, Houston, Phoenix or San Diego.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']France is so far gone down the socialst path that all people of faith there are viewed with suspision.[/QUOTE]

Isn't the idea of Socialism to form a classless system? Wouldn't that essentially be the antithesis of the caste system you're talking about? If you MUST blame this problem on socialism, wouldn't it be more fair to say that France hasn't gone far enough down the socialist path to produce a truly classless/casteless society?
 
[quote name='capitalist_mao']Isn't the idea of Socialism to form a classless system? Wouldn't that essentially be the antithesis of the caste system you're talking about? If you MUST blame this problem on socialism, wouldn't it be more fair to say that France hasn't gone far enough down the socialist path to produce a truly classless/casteless society?[/QUOTE]
He's right. That doesn't really make any sense.

And if now you are saying they have such a horrible racism problem, what is the point of the first post? It sounds like the French Prez is saying the right things, then.
 
[quote name='GreenMonkey']He's right. That doesn't really make any sense.

And if now you are saying they have such a horrible racism problem, what is the point of the first post? It sounds like the French Prez is saying the right things, then.[/QUOTE]

Just traditional Francophobia. Everything the French do is wrong (even if it's a full 180 turn from something else that was perceived as wrong).
 
[quote name='capitalist_mao']Isn't the idea of Socialism to form a classless system? Wouldn't that essentially be the antithesis of the caste system you're talking about? If you MUST blame this problem on socialism, wouldn't it be more fair to say that France hasn't gone far enough down the socialist path to produce a truly classless/casteless society?[/QUOTE]


Even in Socialism ther are classes. The ruling class that makes the decisions like what to grow and what to charge get all the perks while the homogenized poor do all the work for the common good. The people who make decisions, or lead, will always rise to the top and form their own class.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']It's mostly a joke to me because the French brought it completely on themselves.

Before they abandoned Algeria as a colony they brought as many people from that country to France that would leave. Essentially they were more or less indentured servants in status. While obviously they had the decreed rights of any French citizen they were thrown into a de facto caste system. France decided that North Africans and these Muslims would make fine people to be gardners, day laborers, farm workers, garbage haulers and any other occupation deemed to be to low to white French citizens.

The rioters in France are second and third generation French citizens in many cases. Here, if you want to use the Mexican analogy, you are seeing a much faster assimilation of Latino immigrants. Cubans practically own and run Miami. Many children in border states of first or second generation immigrants (Legal or illegal.) are becoming educated and attending Universities. While there are some similarites the disparities between French and American models of societal immigration are canyonesque.

I hold no ill will to any immigrant that comes here and succeeds. I don't care if they're Vietnamese, Korean, Mexican, El Salvadoran, Cuban, Lebanese or Polish. Live by the rules, play by the rules and all are welcome. The French have never taken that approach, other than in words, with their immigrant population. It is a de facto caste system. The same is true in Germany and how they view and treat their sizable Turkish immigrant population.

Do I find humor in this? Only in the sense that the French government can't figure out what the hell went wrong. Who is to blame? Without sounding too condescending well.... it is France's fault. If you think they're rude to Americans imagine being non-white and religous. Forget the Muslim aspect. France is so far gone down the EDIT: secular path that all people of faith there are viewed with suspision. The country is also rife with anti-Semitisim.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find second or third generation Latinos taking up in such a fashion in Los Angeles, Houston, Phoenix or San Diego. [/QUOTE]

:lol:

here's just a sample of assumptions you make with no empirical evidence.

It's pretty clear you've never been to SoCal or any major city on the west coast.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']Even in Socialism ther are classes. The ruling class that makes the decisions like what to grow and what to charge get all the perks while the homogenized poor do all the work for the common good. The people who make decisions, or lead, will always rise to the top and form their own class.[/QUOTE]

What you're describing is a bastardization with an elite culture. A true socialism would have Democratic elections.
 
[quote name='capitalist_mao']What you're describing is a bastardization with an elite culture. A true socialism would have Democratic elections.[/QUOTE]

Ha, ha. You mean just like we have here in america right now? Socialism and democratic elections.

In any society, ther are leaders and there are followers. Classes will always naturally develop as people of the same kind are drawn to each other. The smart people will form groups, the hard-liners will form groups, the moderates, etc. Basically, every society will eventually fragment into various factions or 'parties' which can take on differnt class, or castes, depending on how long they can wield power.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']Ha, ha. You mean just like we have here in america right now? Socialism and democratic elections.

In any society, ther are leaders and there are followers. Classes will always naturally develop as people of the same kind are drawn to each other. The smart people will form groups, the hard-liners will form groups, the moderates, etc. Basically, every society will eventually fragment into various factions or 'parties' which can take on differnt class, or castes, depending on how long they can wield power.[/QUOTE]

There's a difference between class/caste and a simple group. A class is socio-economic standing whereby there are certain levels depending on one's earning and spending power. Whereas the groups you described are factions and just people with different ideas. A socialist society can exist with different factions, so long as they abide by laws. If, at any point, some groups start pulling strings to massively favor themselves or a specific group, then socialism can fall apart.

As far as I can tell, America is not Socialist. Also, America is a democratic republic, which is different from a pure democratic system. Any civics teacher will tell you that.
 
[quote name='capitalist_mao']There's a difference between class/caste and a simple group. A class is socio-economic standing whereby there are certain levels depending on one's earning and spending power. Whereas the groups you described are factions and just people with different ideas. A socialist society can exist with different factions, so long as they abide by laws. If, at any point, some groups start pulling strings to massively favor themselves or a specific group, then socialism can fall apart.

As far as I can tell, America is not Socialist. Also, America is a democratic republic, which is different from a pure democratic system. Any civics teacher will tell you that.[/QUOTE]

The string pullers are exactly the ones I'm talking about. The leaders, or watchers of the system. In order for things to get done in any economy, like running a bread factory or building cars, there are certain people in charge who need to make decisions. Unfortunately, there aren't enough hours in the day for 'the people' to vote on every decision that needs to be made. These people are in a unique position to pull their own strings, so to speak, and wield enormous power usually entrusted to the buyers of a capitalist society. Then there are the organized crime leaders that will draw currency to their favor from underground capitalism feeding the demands of the masses who are unsatisfied with their ration of food and entertainment.

You're right, though, we aren't a socialist country, totally. My comment was political commentary of socialist policies and tendencies of certain polititians and their followers. And you're right about socialism falling apart when people favor themselves. It's a natural tendency to favor one's self and one's group, so socialism will always naturally fail unless people are forced to abide by it with laws.
 
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